The Fresh Loaf

A Community of Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts.

Steam Baker - calling all innovators

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Steam Baker - calling all innovators

Just came across this steam baker. https://shop.tastemade.com/collections/new/products/the-glazed-spring-oven-blue

I like the concept, but not the price...

I’m thinking about using either an inverted clay flour pot saucer in the bottom of a Dutch Oven, or a round piece of 3/8” aluminum with 3 legs attached. My idea is to have the loaf suspended above the water steaming water.

Anybody have ideas? I think the concept is worthy of testing. “always looking for a better mouse trap”

What say you?

Dan

Update Jan 28 @ 4:02 PM: I appreciate the tips (thus far)  below, but the point of this post is to gather the best ideas for putting water in the bottom of a Dutch Oven in order to test the results of the additional steam. I have tried every method that I am aware of, and they are many.

The concept in the image shown in the link above that interest me is the ability to put water into the steamer itself.  As of this time, I inject steam into my oven through the oven’s vent. I am achieving good results with this method, but l’m “always looking for a better mouse trap”.

I appreciate the help...

tom scott's picture
tom scott

 Does the cone shape provide a certain benefit.  I find the small hole in the top kind of curious.  I will monitor this thread closely.

Thanks,

Tom

 

 

 

 

Portus's picture
Portus

... will reveal similar enquires or results, though I do not believe a tagine has an internal water trough.

old baker's picture
old baker

Of course, I've used a pan with hot water and spritzing for steam.  Problem is opening the oven door for repeated spritzing drops the temperature.  I've also used an inverted aluminum baking pan (disposable type) that fits and seals when on the baking stone.  Lately, I've found some success by using the lid of my Emile Henry Baguette Baker inverted over the loaves.  I saturate it with water (the inside is not glazed) prior to baking.  By measuring it dry and then wet, I found that it retains about 2 grams of water.

Then again, I probably should go back to using the baguette baker as it was designed.  But I'm always thinking of a better way to get steam.  I like the system injection system that Dan describes, but can't figure out how to install it in my built-in oven.  Inquiring minds want to know.

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

 for a buck on dollar Thursdays and put a raised trivet in the bottom with 1/8 cup of water.  Heat transfers faster and better and it costs a whole dollar. rather than $140.  Baking a $1 loaf of SD shouldn't cost more than a buck.  Bread is supposed to be the cheapest most nutritional thing you can make to eat ....not the most expensive.  No mixers, stones or other things required.  All you need is an oven which is bad enough.  All of my baking stuff came from Goodwill including the baskets, stones, dutch ovens, clay bakers. pans, etc and I didn't pay more than buck for any of them - the baskets were 50 cents each. I have even bought several, nearly new ,electronic bread makers there for a buck each too.

Wild-Yeast's picture
Wild-Yeast

Inverted steam table pans make good steam cloches. The idea is to enclose the bread in a restricted space so that the dough becomes "self steaming" while it bakes. Cast Iron and clay pottery achieve the same purpose. Spritz the inside of the cloche prior to covering the bread. Also spray the pan with PAM and wipe it down with a paper towel to prevent the bread from sticking. I used to scrub the pans out after every bake - I don't do that any longer as their sole purpose is to steam cloche loaves now.

You can also use aluminum turkey roasting pans and in a pinch suitably formed aluminum foil. Just remember to spray the inside surface to avoid sticking and spritz with water prior to cloching. 

I posted about baking with a turkey roasting bag some years ago at 400 dF just to experiment with the idea of self steaming by cloche - it worked but was a bit clumsy getting the half baked loaf out of the bag without mishap.

Wild-Yeast

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

to Goodwill that were gathering dust in the garage:-(

Bred Maverick's picture
Bred Maverick

 that's a good idea! I happen to have one, but I'll have to see its height. If it works, I'll be using more than I did as a steam table pan. 

Lazy Loafer's picture
Lazy Loafer

 A covered Dutch oven or other bread baker seems to work fine with the moisture that is in the bread dough itself. Not sure why you would want more water in there, actually. And I'm not that impressed with the spring on the finished loaves in that video. I get better results from my loaves baked in cast iron pots.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

I saw this a while back, but have not tried it yet. https://blog.kingarthurflour.com/2017/02/28/steam-in-bread-baking/ Look down on the lower portion of the page for the stainless bowl that hangs over the side of the stone. 

If anyone has tried it, let us know your findings.

Dan

old baker's picture
old baker

I baked two baguettes in my Emile Henry Baguette Baker today.  I left the middle bay open and poured about 1/4 cup of very hot water in it, then covered it with an inverted aluminum turkey pan.  Worked well.  I probably should have used the EHBB lid, but the loaves were a bit too big after proofing and the lid interfered with them.  I didn't want to have the loaves sticking to it.

Bred Maverick's picture
Bred Maverick

I have been searching for a homestyle Bread baking steam pan ever since I baked the most wonderful thin crusted baguettes in a long and narrow steam baking master Baparoma. there are three parts to the pan, a lower pan with reservoir to hold a little bit of water, a perforated upper pan for the dough, and a cover. The steaming is perfect.

 http://www.megaheart.com/pdf/baparoma.pdf

I wanted to replicate this steaming for baking boules. The challenge is to elevate the shaped dough above water in a covered container. I have a  6 quart granite ware pot and tried using both a fan-shaped steaming basket and a flat steaming insert. The first was not stable, and the latter "worked" if one disregarded the funny round indentations on the bottom of the boule. In contrast, the perforations on the Baparoma are tiny, so The bottom of the bagette looks good.

I do not see any need to add steam when I bake boules in a heavy cast-iron Dutch oven preheated to 475°. The hydration is quite high in those recipes, and in fact, I remove the lid after about 15 minutes to reduce the steaming.

 the glazed terracotta spring oven looks interesting, but I do not know if it would be large enough for 500 g of flour.

 The search continues.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Balabusta, glad to see your mind is turning on this idea. The point of the original post is that their idea got me to thinking. I’m not really trying to copy them exactly, but I’m interested in the basic idea of having a water source inside the baking vessel.

A boule steamer would seem to be the easiest. Use a Dutch oven (combo baker) and maybe get a round disc of aluminum and raise above the water level or maybe an inverted clay flower pot saucer.

Please let me know if you have any ideas or run any test. For me, I think the idea merits testing. It may or may not work, but it’s worth a shot. 

Dan

Bred Maverick's picture
Bred Maverick

 what kind of Dutch oven? Granite ware? cast iron?

what is baking temperature?

An inverted quite flowerpot saucer presents 2 issues:  cracking under extreme heat and emitting clay toxics 

a round disc of aluminum - do you mean aluminum foil? needs perforations

when i bake boules on steel cooking sheet, i preheat oven to 475 with a deep Lodge bread pan. i boil water and pour it into extremely hot cast iron and there is STEAM. 

Diane

trailrunner's picture
trailrunner

for one thing you don't want to use boiling or hot water to make steam. You want an ice cube or two . No more. The cast iron isn't necessary at all for baking wonderful bread. As it happens the lightest pots work as well or  better. You want to start at a hot temp....that is achieved by increasing the heat of the oven. The heavier the pot the longer it takes but after all is said and done 500 degrees is 500 degrees. You then want to lower the temp after X minutes. The cast iron doesn't allow that nearly as easily as the lighter ware pots  . Thus the rational for not using cast iron. As to steam the most efficient way is VERY few ice cubes...two small wedges is plenty for two boules in my huge granite roaster. I posted pics the other day in my date YW post. It shows the boules side by side. I preheat to 500 , takes 15 min. max. I then remove roaster from oven and place the boules, on parchment into the roaster, which has a liner pan. I drop in two ice cubes right on the parchment. Recover pot and place in 500 for 10 min/reduce to 475 still covered. Remove the cover and there is still steam !! Yep even with just two ice cubes. Bake at cont. 475 for 20 min. Beautiful loaves and no expense or trouble or spritzing etc. Hope this gives you some insight into cheap and wonderful options. Dab is on the same page. Cheap, NMNF baking !   c

Bred Maverick's picture
Bred Maverick

I am going to give your process a try because it actually makes sense. 500° is 500° . The steam master I use is  light granite wear And works superbly.

 thinking out loud, the value of a cast iron pot retaining its heat is useful for stovetop cooking so one can lower the heat and still have the food slow cooking, as in chilli.

 it never occurred to me that I could put two ice cubes near the boules, But I can see why it could work.

What is your YW Post?

 

 

trailrunner's picture
trailrunner

with lots of pictures !  http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/55206/date-yw-kamut-levain-multigrain-date-syrup-and-yogurt

 

I preheat the oven to 500....I put the covered roaster in at that time. When the oven beeps at 500 I take out the roaster and immediately lower the loaves into the roaster using the parchment paper. I have always torn the paper to make a sling but since using the roaster I leave the sheets whole. I then drop in the two cubes on the left side ( I am left handed ) and quickly put on the lid, vents in top are closed. I then return it to the oven for 10 min at 500...lower the temp to 475 for another 10 min then finally remove the lid for 20 min. There is always hot steam in the pot even after the 20 min with just the two small cubes. I couldn't believe it either till I repeated the process again and got the same result. 

Will look forward to your results. c

Bred Maverick's picture
Bred Maverick

i followed your link  but I did not see any pictures of the graniteware pot you use ( just great pictures of your finished bread)

 what is the overall size  of the pan that can accommodate two boules ( mine are always 500 g each)?  I am looking to buy one, and I am going to stay away from nonstick finish. 

Diane

trailrunner's picture
trailrunner

when you get near the bottom you will see two boules side by side in parchment. They are sitting in the large roaster. When you scroll further down you will see one boule in  parchment in the roaster. Mine is the largest they made/still make. You can find them on Etsy as well as Ebay. The new ones I don't know about as far as quality or if they are steel . Mine is 16"x11" more or less without the handles. It has the lift out liner pan as well which is great when doing a large piece of meat or for lifting out the bread. Hope this helps. Here is a link to a new one..looks very nice quality. They seem to make a larger one as well up to 19". 

https://thewirecutter.com/reviews/best-roasting-pan/- reviews 

http://www.qvc.com/18%22-Covered-Oval-Roaster---Holds-Up-To-18-lb-Turkey.product.K129946.html?colorId=000&sizeId=000&ref=GAS&cm_mmc=GOOGLESHOPPINGFEED...|L|BrandProduct|cooking+dining-_-pla-_-sa70tc3jN|dc_40256047377_363133621184__K129946-000-000_&mkwid=sa70tc3jN|dc_pcrid_40256047377_363133621184_pkw__pmt__productid_K129946-000-000&TZ=EST

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Thanks for the ice cube tip Trailrunner. It’s hard to believe how much steam 2 cubes will provide.

But I did have a problem. I bake with parchment paper and the cubes didn’t do well with the paper. When I removed the loaf he paper was glued to the bottom of the loaf. Lesson learned. I will be using this in the future, but there will be no paper involved in the deal.

The hole in the middle is from the thermometer.

BTW - I did salvage it, but it wasn’t easy.

A great tip, Thanks

Dan

 

trailrunner's picture
trailrunner

well that is a bummer ! My paper didn't stick. I guess you can drop them into something small placed next to the loaf ? Use a larger pot ?  I am sure you will think of something. As I have said before , actually for years, it is counterproductive to put hot water in if you want steam. You have to use ice cold And yes it is amazing how much steam it makes. SO glad it worked ....almost ;) c

Bred Maverick's picture
Bred Maverick

trailrunner and dan ayo:

I just field tested Using a poaching pod in my new covered graniteware roasting pan. worked like a charm. no mess! I uploaded a photo in a different post

diane

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

I’m trying to make steam inside a cast iron Dutch Oven by adding additional water inside the enclosed pot.

Bred Maverick's picture
Bred Maverick

 have you baked your boules  in a preheated cast-iron pot? I still don't understand why you would want to add steam. 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

I’m always looking for a better mouse trap ;-D

Bred Maverick's picture
Bred Maverick

 why get a mouse trap if there are no mice in the house?

The heavy duty cast-iron pots provide more than enough steam.

I am looking for an alternative to preheating those heavy pots for an hour.

 

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

I did a trial a little while ago and there wasn’t a huge difference between baking in a cold or hot Dutch oven. I even did a trial using a cold oven and a cold pot. The hot pot and hot oven produced the best results for me but the other two methods produced decent bread. 

trailrunner's picture
trailrunner

I posted the idea the other day. All you do is take your heavy pot and put some water in it and get it very hot. Pour out the water and put in the loaf in the hot pot. All done. 

The other alternative is to not use the heavy pots. They are not necessary...all you need is a pot that quickly gets to 500 it doesn't need to retain heat and actually you don't want it to retain heat as you will  be lowering the temp after only a very short time and you don't need or want the pot to stay very hot. 

One more alternative that we have all had varied results is use a cold pot to start in a hot oven. This will work especially well if you don't use a very heavy pot. 

So lots of alternatives !  Good Luck c

DivingDancer's picture
DivingDancer

I bake in cast iron, and sometimes in a clay roaster with a lid.  As long as you have a decent seal, the dough provides more than enough steam.  I have to get the lid off early to allow the gelatins to convert.  No extra water necessary.

trailrunner's picture
trailrunner

I show my huge roaster on my last bake with two boules in it. 2 ice cubes is MORE than enough for great steam. No need to water at all. The ice cubes will be gone and no water remains. LOTS  of steam when you take off the cover after 20 min. Try it...works great. c

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

TrailRunner, you said you drop 2 ice cubes onto the parchment. I’m wondering, don’t the cubes melt and get the bottom of the dough wet.

Please explain, I’m interested to learn. 

Also, my experience has been quite different than yours pertaining to the light vs. heavy pot. I’ve baked 2 boules at the same time using a cast iron DO and an aluminum DO. The pot were side by side. And to my surprise the aluminum pot’s results weren’t near as nice. The cast iron browned much better IMO. So much so, I don’t like using the aluminum DO. I’m not definitively saying you are wrong, just that I didn’t come to the same conclusion. It forever amazes me how great results are often achieved using different methods. 

Thanks for the reply.

Dan

trailrunner's picture
trailrunner

the granite ware I am using is from the 40's or earlier. It is steel covered with the enamel. So it does retain heat very well while being lightweight. I haven't tried aluminum so can't comment. I don't see the loaves being all that brown when I first take off the cover. But after the next 20 min without cover at 475 they are as dark as I could want. 

As to two ice cubes we are talking the " orange slice" shape but even regular square ones are only a couple TBs at most of water. My slice ones are tsps of water. Two of them are steam at 500 in seconds. No water at all in the pan or on the paper. You can see the crumb in the pics I posted. 

Everyone's mileage will vary that is for sure !  It is why it's so interesting to get so many views. Always something new to try. Give it a whirl. It takes so little steam to have an effect. Not the great amounts of pans of water that many are trying.....at least in my experience. Good Luck !  c

Bred Maverick's picture
Bred Maverick

thanks for all the details

Granite wear still makes roasting pans -- steel covered with enamel. they have a very large one , 21 x 14 x 8  which definitely should fit 1.5 lb loaves.

I prefer to bake two loaves at one time, instead of one loaf

challenge is where to find cabinet space if I were to purchase it!

diane

Bred Maverick's picture
Bred Maverick

oh, I'm bummed.  I ordered the  largest granitewear roasting pan  and it arrived the other day. The measurements, 21  x 14 x 8 are exterior,  including the length of the handles. 

Actual  interior measurement is 16.75 x 12 x 8

 I always bake two 1.5 lb boules in two heavy cast iron pots.   it will be interesting to see if I can fit two loaves in this granite ware roasting pot

trailrunner's picture
trailrunner

and I easily fit two 1 1/2.  - 2 # boules side by side. You can see it in pics of my bakes. Boules are on parchment lowered in the roaster . Exactly same size as yours. Enjoy!

Bred Maverick's picture
Bred Maverick

yes, i baked two loaves this afternoon. thx

having trouble downloading photos. have no idea why....