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I'm desperate to learn why my starter will not rise past 8 hours.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

I'm desperate to learn why my starter will not rise past 8 hours.

I am desperate to learn why my starter will not rise past 8 hours. I started a post a week or so ago dealing with this same issue. http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/54588/how-can-i-increase-time-between-feeding-starter

But I thought maybe the waters got too cloudy, so it might be best to start a new post. Instead of reading through the many and informative comments, I thought it best to condense it here. I'd like to take this time to thank all of the TFL users that posted comments to the prior post. I tried each and everyone of them. Stirring, singing, you name it. ;-) The image below tells most of the story. I ran in excess of a dozen test. My starter shuts down after 8 hours. You could almost set your watch by it. One of the most productive suggestions came from Mariana. She told me to thoroughly knead the starter in order to develop the gluten. And after a complete kneading I did experience a 3 - 3 1/2 time growth (see image below). But after 8 hours all activity ceased.

Some will ask, "why does it matter if the starter quits growing after 8 hours. What more could you want with a 3 times or more expansion"? I don't want to feed my starter 3 times a day. Twice is way plenty enough for me. I often cold retard my levain overnight, so for 4 or so of the 12 hours the levain will probably cease to rise.

Any help is GREATLY appreciated,
Dan

alfanso's picture
alfanso

I'm not the go-to person when it comes to levains of various stripes and colors.  Who they are is pretty well established.  I have my few that work well for me and I stick with them.

That said (or written), when I build a very stiff levain, like 60% hydration or to refresh my existing 60% starter, out of the vessel it comes and onto the bench for kneading.  More so for incorporation of ingredients than any other purpose.

I rarely ever see a 3x rise in my levains, and although my kitchen is in the warmer range of temps, any first build takes a max of 10 hours, sometimes fewer hours.  Regional differences, water, flour quality, flour mix, hydrations, altitude, humidity, ambient temp. ...all should play into how levains react when they grow.

But to get a triple rise in 8 hours?  Maybe that's all that your environment profile will tolerate.  If this is consistent, then you should be content that you've achieved consistency.  Something that a lot of us strive for.

For those in disagreement with me, be forewarned that I keep a meat cleaver in the trunk (boot) of my car.  But go ahead anyway, I'm taking today off.

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

I agree with Alan.

Joking apart, Alan's 125% hydration whole Rye levain makes for a very tasty loaf. No Muss No Fuss levain build. 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Alan, I am thrilled with the rise, BUT. If my starter won't grow for at least 12 hours, I'm thinking it will be difficult to properly maintain. If the starter ceased to rise after 8 hours, shouldn't I feed it then? 3 X 8 = 24 That's 3 times a day. I find twice a day to me a nuisance.

If the yeast quit producing, won't they begin to die?

I like sour taste, but my starters (as you can imagine) are sour.

The question remains, why doesn't my starter grow past 8 hours? Not a single test has gone past 8 hours.  In all of the test I recently done, the temperature has probably never exceeded 76°.

btw; I tested one of the latest starters that have matured and declined in height.  I stirred the spent starter and after 1hr & 15min it doubled once again.

It is strong, I know it. I just can't understand why other starters for other users grow for 12 hours or more and this brute refuses to do so.

Dan

mariana's picture
mariana

Dan, the dough in the picture in not well kneaded. I judge by the pores. They should be multiple, large throughout and vertically oriented in a properly refreshed starter. 

For example, that is how the starter looks 3-4  hours after it is fed 100 starter : 100 flour :60 water, kneaded to gluten development and held  at 26-28C (80-82F), at which time it has doubled: 

Image taken from the text book for bakers by Richemont School in Switzerland.

In your starter there are few pores, they are small, and the larger ones are horizontally oriented. The dough is not properly developed (not enough kneading) and there is not enough yeast (you feed your starter too often). 

 

To properly develop gluten, SO THAT IT DOESN'T leak gas after 8 hrs of fermentation, mix your starter with fresh flour and water, let it rest for 30 min and then knead. By hand it will take probably 15-30 min of kneading, until you reach the minimum of 600-1000 turns of the starter dough. It is easier to knead in a small bread machine. I use Zojirushi small bread machine for starters. It easily kneads a small piece of starter in Pasta setting. Gives it kneading to homogeneity, then 20 min rest, and then 10 min of kneading to gluten development. https://www.zojirushi.com/app/product/bbhac

The alternative is to mix the starter with water until exceptionally frothy (handheld mixer helps), add flour, beat with spoon or fork 300x. Punch down your starter dough in the cup it sits in after 8 hrs of fermentation and beat it with the spoon 300x. Let it rise again, until it reaches the proper pH of 4.0-4.2. Each punch down should be like that, beating it with the spoon or fork 300x. Consciously count the number of the turns of the fork in the cup!

alfanso's picture
alfanso

I had never heard of kneading starter nor can I find much, or really any, information on this via Googling.

My SOP for builds, of the 10,000 ways to do these I suppose: on first build to whisk the starter with water trying to dissolve as much of the starter as possible, and then add flour.  Stir vigorously and  thoroughly scrape down the sides of the vessel, etc.  And leave sit for 15, 30 maybe 60 minutes.  And then stir it again to make sure that the flour and water are thoroughly incorporated. Same true for subsequent builds.

The alveolation and amount of rise is dependent on the levain hydration and flour mix.  For example, since lechem mentions the 125% rye levain, here is one that I believe has more than doubled on the second and final build, and probably in no more than a 4-6 hour time frame:

Far be it from me to say that another method, such as what Mariana describes (and I know she knows her starters and levains), has any drawbacks save for the amount of work involved, but it certainly seems overly fussy to me.  As I get a really good oven spring, I will assume that the method I follow is sufficient for me.  (Not necessarily for anyone else...)

mariana's picture
mariana

Hi Alfanso, 

there is absolutely no need to knead the starter to gluten development, mixing to homogeneity is usually enough, when the dough is smooth and somewhat shiny (speaking of the dough with the 'bread dough' consistency). Normally, the peak maturity of the starter, knowing that it is ripe would be tracked by the fragrance (strongly alcoholic and sour-fragrant) and its pH and TTA (in the bakery).  Many at home measure it by watching its volume. 

I was responding to Dan. He wants his starter DOUGH to rise for longer than 8 hours. If you want your dough to rise for a long long... l o n g time you need a strong dough with well developed gluten, so that it can increase in volume up to 8-fold from original volume. If the volume of the dough only triples or quadruples and then stops, it is because the dough reached its limit of fermentation tolerance, it is because it is leaking gas, the gluten is broken, cannot contain gas anymore. 

I learned to knead wheat starter upon refreshment from the French baker Raymond Calvel. His starter was the first one I created all by myself at home, , by one of his recipes from his book "The Taste of Bread (Goût  du pain). He shows it in the video  by CIA and it is described in his book as well. He mixed his refreshed starters for the same length of time on low speed in a spiral mixer that he mixed French bread dough that goes to make baguettes, ficelles, batards, etc. - to the minimum gluten development which is about 600-800 turns of the starter dough. 

Unless the starter dough is properly developed, there is no way to judge the readiness of the starter by its volume, i.e. when it doubles, when it quadruples, etc. If the gluten is not developed, how on earth would one seek quadrupling, if the height of the starter merely doubles or triples and then it STOPs and doesn't budge, doesn't rise anymore? One would think that the starter is not ready, or the yeast is weak or there is not enough of it, etc. Whereas all this time the answer was : KNEAD your starter, until the gluten is there, so that it is strong, developed, doesn't leak CO2 and it CAN quadruple, quintuple, sixtuple, etc. under pressure of CO2 from within. 

 

mariana

tgrayson's picture
tgrayson

"By hand it will take probably 15-30 min of kneading,"

Hmmm, there only about 3 people in the entire world that do this, so I'm pretty sure it's not necessary.

mariana's picture
mariana

What Dan, the topic starter baker, wants it the latex strong and very stretchy gluten in his starter, so that it doesn't break down under gas pressure and so that the volume of the starter keeps increasing past 3x or 4x mark which for his starter would be past 8hr fermentation mark. The only way to get gluten that strong, impermeable and stretchy is to knead it. By hand it takes time, yes. 

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

Rising isn't the only thing going on in the Fermentation process. Surely it's what's going on within a starter that's more important. We aren't making a loaf just yet. 

mariana's picture
mariana

I am sure that Dan would love to hear that, Lechem : ) 

I completely agree with you. We only create and maintain starters for the sake of the microbes in them. The second reason is the fragrance and acid load of the started dough, so that we can use a piece of starter as an improver in our bread dough. 

Rising of the starter dough is only important when the amount of starter in the bread dough is so large that the quality of the sourdough starter DOUGH begins to matter. We wouldn't want to add a degraded piece of dough with a broken down gluten network into a freshly mixed batch of bread dough when starter comprises more than 15-25% of that final dough. It will simply destroy the quality of the final dough, give off funky flavors when baked, etc. 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Mariana - you said, “Rising of the starter dough is only important when the amount of starter in the bread dough is so large that the quality of the sourdough starter DOUGH begins to matter”

If the starter does not rise or quits rising, can the yeast multiply?

l’m hung up on a strong yeasted starter because I think it is necessary for an extremely open crumb. I’m thinking that if my starter rose 4 times that it would have more bread lifting power than if it rose only 3 times.

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

They become waste. The starter (or levain - as I think you're using the same terminology for both or you're using the method of feeding and using straight from the starter) will become spent, the taste will get very sour and it's rising ability will be compromised. One needs to feed it and use it at the optimal time. The yeasts have  multiplied and are firing on all engines but not left too long that they begin to die and the starter becomes either too sour or not effective at all. 

Now rising is a sign of fermenting. The yeasts are multiplying. So in one aspect that is a good indicator. However one must also consider that a low hydration will rise higher then a high hydration as it can trap gas more. Also too high a hydration and it might not even rise but just bubble and froth since it can't trap any gas (or very little). 

Have you tried documenting your starter at different stages by smell? 

Smells of flour and water - immature

Fruity - young (sweeter bread)

Tangy but pleasant - mature (typically what people associate with Sourdough)

Vinegar - overly mature (very tangy or sour bread)

Alcoholic - needs feeding and long past its optimal time for using

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Abe, I’ve often read about smelling the starter. I need to try to start paying attention to that. I want to learn. From your description, it seems the smells are fairly distinguishable.

I think I’ll order an inexpe digital PH tester. The strips aren’t very easy to use and the ones I have aren’t ideal.

Btw - when I mention starter, I am taking about the starter. I haven’t gotten to discussing the Levain yet. <oh no> ;-) The good thing is; when it comes to fermentation I don’t think there is much if any difference between the two. To me the starter is the small portion that is set aside in order to build a Levain, either immediately after it is active or at some date in the future.

I do plan to test Levain in much the same way as I’m testing starters. That’s why I ordered a 1.1 liter straight sided glass container.  Probably a waste of time, but time I have. At least I think...

Dan

mariana's picture
mariana

Dan, hi! : ) 

The starter rising means that it's a substance impermeable to gas. Once gas pressure tears dough, creates microscopic holes in it, the starter will stop rising, it will leak gas. 

- If the starter does not rise or quits rising, can the yeast multiply?

YES. Yeast multiplication has nothing to do with gluten, with the rise, with dough volume. Yeast needs sugar, some aminos, some vitamins to live and to reproduce. It doesn't chew on gluten : ) Whether the starter is rising or not, for as long as there is sugar and other elements of good food for them the yeast will multiply. 

An extremely open crumb can be obtained with zero yeast. Anyone who had seen laminated dough with zero yeast spring from 2 mm thickness to one inch in height in the oven can attest to that.

 

 zero yeast huge 12x rise in volume due to good gluten development. 

 

Opennes of crumb and huge rise of the bread in the oven only depend on gluten development. In laminated dough the gluten is well developed, that is why it rises 12x in height with zero yeast in it.

The bread made from wheat will rise 2x-4x if gluten is weak and undeveloped. It will rise 8-12x in volume, if gluten is strong and well developed. 

mariana

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

It may be obvious to most, but I think I’m starting to get the picture. In this image (see link below) http://www.thefreshloaf.com/comment/395264#comment-395264 the starter was first raised to max height and then (in the picture) I stirred it down. After stirring I photographed and as you can see it grew super quick in the next 1 1/4 hour it continued to grow for a total of about 3 hours. From this I conclude that even though the initial test with the starter ceased growing at 8 hours, I was able to stir it down and get very rapid growth in a matter of an hour. So the yeast is very alive and well but as the starter grows the yeast is unable to get close enough to access the starch to feed. It appears to me that once the yeast loose access to the starch, the rise comes to an end. But the LAB continue to grow. Strong flaver is being developed.

Question; The starter is left for 12 hours, and we know that it stops rising at 8 hours. We also know the LAB continue to multiply during this 4 hour period.  During this 4 hour period, do the yeast start to die off, either because of lack of food or, do the increase of LAB overcome the yeast and cause them to begin to die and decrease?

I appreciate those that have stuck with me, your patience does not go unnoticed. I really want to understand this.

Thanks

Dan

 

mariana's picture
mariana

Dan, 

the starter stops to grow because its gluten breaks down, there are holes in the gluten network that leak gas. By stirring the starter you close those holes and the continuous never stopping gas production is visible again, the gluten is holding the gas again - the stirred dough rises, until the gas pushes against gluten of the dough so much, that it opens holes in gluten and the dough stops rising  again - it's leaking gas again through the microscopic holes in dough, in its gluten. 

The yeast produces gas all the time. You see it as 'rising' when the gluten is whole, without holes. As soon as the gluten integrity is broken, there are holes in it, you no longer see the continuing rise, the dough looks as if there is no more gas produced in it. It is being produced non-stop, you just cannot see the odorless colorless CO2 gas that leaks from the dough into your kitchen's air. 

Yeast doesn't eat starch. It eats the leftover sugars that bacteria produce for themselves and some of that sugar is left for yeast to feed on. That is why it takes 100 bacteria cells to feed 1 yeast cell in the starter.  Stirring dough doesn't give more food to the yeast. Yeast gets its food from solution, from the liquid that is inside the dough. The sugar that yeast eats is dissolved in the free water in the dough. You don't need to stir that liquid, it flows on its own towards yeast, by diffusion process and evening out of osmotic pressure. 

Bacteria break down starch with the special chemical that bacteria produce, sugar seeps into water in the dough, most of that sugar - 99% of it - would be consumed by bacteria, the rest - by yeast. 

- The starter is left for 12 hours, and we know that it stops rising at 8 hours. We also know the LAB continue to multiply during this 4 hour period.  During this 4 hour period, do the yeast start to die off?

- No, they continue to multiply and live on and on for 10 days non-stop at 30C /86F and longer at cooler temperatures. For example, for 2-6 months in the refrigerator.  Only then they will start to die off. 

-  do the increase of LAB overcome the yeast and cause them to begin to die and decrease?

- No. LAB only do good things for yeast. They give the yeast sugar and other goodies necessary for the happy life.

The increase of LAB numbers continues until the dough becomes too acidic for LAB to reproduce. At pH 4.0 LAB stop reproducing and simply live in the dough, continue to produce acid, but they no longer 'breed', no longer multiply. Yeast, meanwhile will continue to multiply even at pH 4.0 and way below that. Even when pH reaches an incredible low of 2.0 yeasts are still OK and perfectly happy. 

For as long as bacteria produce enough sugar for them  (or you add sugar into dough) yeasts  will continue to multiply indefinitely at any acidity level. The only thing that will kill them is their own alcohol. Once the amount of alcohol in dough reaches certain level (you won't see that in your lifetime ever in a sourdough, don't worry) yeast will poison themselves with their own 'excretions' and start dying off. 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

It seems the life cycle of a starter is a mystery to most. As far as I know there are no books commonly available dealing with the specifics. Anyone know of a resource that doesn’t take a PHD to understand?

*I realize it is not necessary to get into so much detail to bake great bread. I am consistently baking very good sourdough breads right now. But if I were to become totally satisfied with my bread baking knowledge and skills, I’d probably be looking for another hobby. Thankfully, there is so much to learn. I’ll run out of time before I get to scratch the surface of this endeavor. And that’s a great thing!

What I’m learning from Mariana is foreign and new. I appreciate the input from everyone.

Oh, I tested the starter’s PH and I get a clear 4.

Bigblue's picture
Bigblue

Based on the above information, that of a SD starter lasting 10+ days at 30c without being refreshed, it seems I could keep a small levain on the counter, say 20g, let it do its thing (like become very acidic but still remain 'stable' or 'healthy') and then just dump out some of it or refresh it to a size required for my dough when needed within that time span. Anything wrong with that?

-Thanks

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Hey Tom, I’ve learned a lot about starter maintenance since this post. “I get by with a little (maybe a lot) of help from my friends” LOL

I understand the logic in your thinking, but when a starter starts to get highly acidic the yeast are diminished. A starter will excel in either yeast or LAB. But all starter will contain both, although their ratios can vary greatly.

If you went 10 days @ 30C you would end up with soup. The dough would degrade and it would stink to high heaven.

The reason a starter can be kept for long lengths of time without refreshing is because it is kept cold to retard the activity of all microbes. 

Have you checked out the No Mess No Fuss Starter ?

Danny

Bigblue's picture
Bigblue

But, as I understand, the yeast do not die though. They may be less active or dormant but their population numbers are stable. 

Why does it matter if it's soup? Dump 90% when you want to use it, refeed and likely that culture is ready to raise bread in a matter of hours.

I do have a NMNF starter but if I can keep a starter on the counter for a week for spur of the moment baking, that is very convenient.

 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

But, as I understand, the yeast do not die though. They may be less active or dormant but their population numbers are stable.”

I think they will die from lack of food. But it is easy enough to know for sure. Try your idea, and post the results.

Thoughts, ideas, beliefs are all good, but when a proper test is run and evaluated the results are what they are. Or as I like to say,”it is what it is” :-D

I’ve been wrong a lot and so have most (probably all) of us. GOOD test results are difficult to deny.

Whether your idea is correct or not, I love the fact that you are thinking outside the box. IMO, we need more thinking like this. 

Danny

I believe a lot of things, and I am positive that some of those beliefs are wrong. The problem is, I don’t know which ones they are...

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

I think you've stumbled across the reason for keeping a starter and building a levain. 

Starter = petri dish for yeast and bacteria. 

Levain = a Pre-Ferment which is the start of the recipe. 

For your needs this is the best route. Don't be too concerned about the starter. Of course it needs to be fed and kept alive but beyond that don't worry. And from the starter you build a levain and now you begin to design the recipe. Concentrate more on the designer "starter" i.e the Levain. 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

The saga continue. I await UPS today. I ordered some 1.1 liter beakers. That way I can start testing my Levain. I plan to test this in much the same way I tested the starters. I will be watching the elapsed time of growth.

I’d imagine that most (maybe all) of you think I’m crazy. My wife sure does. :-)

Yes, I’m obsessive. But that’s what floats by boat. I worked hard in order to retire. So I have the time and the interest. What I lack in intelligence I make up with tenacity...

Merry, Merry Christmas to all,

Dan

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

I'm enjoying all this. The best way to understand it is to figure it out for yourself. Even if you come to the same conclusion discussed some time ago perhaps one needs to try things out to see for themselves. 

You've earned to do what makes you happy. Enjoy! 

Merry Christmas. 

- Abe

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

you are judging a narrow aspect of your sourdough culture.  You seem concentrated on the gas trapping aspect.  Your experiments tell me more about the flour you're using and how to handle the dough made with that flour than the yeast population (growth.)  

Trust your culture, trust that the yeast is multiplying and working away.  It has shown you it is there. 

Feeding a maintenance starter twice a day, with undeveloped gluten for an 8 hour period (with gradually increasing visual activity) followed by 4 hours (give or take) to average out to 12 hrs is what folks at home strive for, at least in the beginning of maintaining a starter.  It can be tweaked somewhat to fit a work routine or adapt to changing seasonal temperatures.  It sounds very basic and a healthy routine for a maintenance starter culture that sits out in the kitchen.

I have to laugh at myself sometimes when my experiments take over part of the kitchen.  You know, that room meant for preparing meals and storing food and eating quick meals and breakfast.  It has its drawbacks, hubby now thinks all my daily cooking are experiments.   I'm trying to turn his frequent presence around and get him to cook more.  

Retirement sounds like you've traded one job for another, turning the kitchen into a laboratory.  :) 

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

I am sitting here reading and trying to digest all this.  I will keep coming back as I can to keep learning what others are posting. Really interesting info from everyone. ... this is why this is such an awesome site.

Happy baking all

Leslie 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

A while back I posted this problem I had with increasing the starter feed times. Try as I may I couldn’t get the rise to go past 8 hours. It would decline at About 9 hrs. What I discovered was that the high percentage of home ground rye and/or home ground wheat berries caused the starter to grow too aggressively to make the target 12 hr feed. Once I removed them from the mix I was able to control the timing very well. I settled on 1:3:5 using AP flour only. I use 5 starter : 15 Water : 25 AP. With my particular starter if I wanted to increase the feed time (because of cooler temp) I might use a little whole grain but I would do so very sparingly. Maybe 5:15:22 AP flour + 3 whole rye. And/or warm the water a little.

I learned from Debra that if you want maximum lift (yeast) you can’t have maximum tang (sour). So now I cater to rise and feed at 12hrs when the starter just starters to recede (fall).

I want sour bread. So I plan (haven’t done it yet) to use my sweet starter to build the Levain maturing to the point where it just recedes. But I hope to get the sour through a longer ferment and/or higher ferment temperatures. Hoping this will work as planned.

 I apreciate the help given me.

Dan