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Trouble with Hamelman's Sourdough Preferment

BakerBuck's picture
BakerBuck

Trouble with Hamelman's Sourdough Preferment

In reference to the Whole Rye recipe on page 210 of Hamelman's 2nd edition.

The sourdough preferment was prepared and incubated as directed from a very active all rye sourdough culture (his recipe) that was at the height of vitality when used to make the preferment.

The preferment just lay in the bowl with no perceptible expansion.  No evidence of unmonitored rise and then collapse.
 It incubated overnight (8 hr.) at 68-70 F, (then inspected) then the next nine hours at 70-76 F as the day warmed up.  I let it run for 24 hours, no change in the very dense, inert mass at the bottom of the bowl.  I refrigerated it, hoping to use it for something else but threw it out the next day, noticing a collection of honeycombed bubbles and a  looser consistency involving the bottom 1/3 of the culture.

I used very fine, whole rye organic flour.

I googled "hamelman" and "sourdough" for this website and got 3000+ hits, so, although this question must have been asked before, I cannot access it: it is 'concealed by virtue of dilution'.

I have made most of the breads in the yeasted and levain portions of his book with v. good success (except for the sunflower seed bread with pate fermentee, which others have also had trouble baking), so I have some experience with his recipes.

I can switch to Mini's recipe or another, but I thought that 5% inoculation was much too sparse and I would like to be successful in his rye paradigm.

 

BB

 

Filomatic's picture
Filomatic

Are you sure it hadn't grown at all?  I'm at a loss to explain why it wouldn't work.  Don't give up.

I just made the one with whole rye with whole wheat, which is the second or third one in the rye section.  I made the "rye sourdough" (preferment) after feeding rye to my fridged starter twice over a 24 hour period, then begging my wife to build the sourdough, which turned out to be quite thick, and fermented at 70 F for 15 hours.

I fermented it in a ceramic bowl, so I couldn't see how active it was, but when I went to us it, I stirred it and found it light and airy.  It was very active in the final build, and I was able to bulk and final ferment in 90 minutes each.  My starter conversion builds were tripling pretty quickly at 1-2-2 feedings of rye, with many perceptible holes.

BakerBuck's picture
BakerBuck

That is the recipe I could not work.

I must have glossed over this bit of Hamelman's teaching:

1-2-2 refers to starter:water:flour, right?  Hamelman's recipe is 1-1-1

you were converting from white to rye?  I am maintaining H's sourdough rye culture.  It is even more vigorous than the liquid white levain culture, which itself is vibrant.

I might play around with 1-2-2, since it grows so fast.

Thank you.  I'll wait for my courage to come back.

B

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

A 100% wild rye starter will baulk at being fed only wheat.  Have run into it myself.   My only suggestion is to build or feed the starter with a little wheat mixed with rye until it adapts.  Usually takes a few moderate feeds.  The first being incredibly slow.  I think it hangs with some specialised rye yeasts that have taken over the starter.  Wish I knew more.

Mini

Maverick's picture
Maverick

My understanding is that for that recipe, the "sourdough" portion being built is really a conversion from white to rye culture. So if you already have a rye sourdough culture, then you just need to build up enough for the recipe and adjust any hydration issues.

Hamelman is taking his white 125% hydration sourdough, then making a less liquid rye culture from it. He uses 5% white liquid culture, 83% water, and 100% rye flour for the levain/sourdough/preferment.

BakerBuck's picture
BakerBuck

Warning: this particular post risks being boring because it is being detail-specific about a particular printed recipe.

The recipe is for Hamelman's "Whole-Rye and Whole-Wheat Bread.

The 'Overall Formula' is 50% bread flour, 25% whole-rye flour, and 25% whole-wheat flour.  The other components are water, salt yeast and 'sourdough' [his term].

The sub-recipe for 'sourdough' for this recipe is whole-rye flour (100%), water (83%) and 'mature sourdough culture' (5%).

For me, and the reason for this post, the failure was at the sourdough sub-recipe stage; haven't gotten to the final build.

As Filomatic said, this recipe is the second recipe in Chapter 6, titled "Sourdough Rye Breads".  The second page of this chapter has a major section titled, "Production Notes for the Formulas in this Chapter" of which the first paragraph is titled "Preparing the Sourdough".  It begins: "The sourdough is prepared by dispersing the mature culture into the water, adding the flour, and mixing by hand or machine until the flour is thoroughly incorporated..."  A side box two pages later reiterates the same thing.  He never says what 'flour' or 'culture' he is talking about, but in a chapter of 'sourdough rye breads' wouldn't one assume that 'flour' and 'culture' are rye flour and rye culture?

The Appendix of the book begins by detailing sourdough cultures and he gives three recipes: liquid white, stiff white, and rye cultures.

His rye culture is 'batter-y' at 100% hydration. the 'sourdough' preferment is much stiffer at 83% hydration.

I may repeat what I did before, but making sure that the rye culture is at the height of vigor and I follow the initial steps to the letter.

Mini has a good point and I wonder if it would make a difference to tailor the flour composition 2:1:1 bread, rye, ww for several feedings prior to applying it to this particular recipe to have a 'bespoke population' of microorganisms ready for this blend of flours.

I like to follow recipes initially exactly, so that I know what to change for my kitchen and if the change is beneficial or detrimental.  If one starts out with a change or two, there is no control for comparison.

B

Maverick's picture
Maverick

Okay, I had to go back and read through several sections to come to the conclusion that you are probably right, and it should be a rye sourdough starter. What is confusing is that in other recipes he actually calls it a rye culture, but that might be after a build or two. Before I say more, please make sure you have checked the errata for the book. The only one for page 210 is that it should read medium rye flour instead of whole rye flour in the "sourdough" section. So I don't know if that makes any difference:

http://mellowbakers.com/ErrataSheetFeb2011.pdf

That said, Hamelman does state is that if it needs longer or shorter, then adjust time accordingly. What he fails to mention is that not everyone's sourdough culture is the same. Some need big feedings to last a full 12 hours, some need small feedings. It depends somewhat on how it is maintained, along with things like flour source, temperature, etc. If you are feeding right at peak, then it favors the yeast, and it might need more food to last. Also, the temperature of the water used to "feed" the culture can make a difference. Where I live, the house temperature stays the same because of air conditioning, but the tap water is much warmer in the Summer than now in Fall. So I need to feed less to have the same results (or I need to cool off the water in Summer).

So my recommendation is to get to know your own culture. If you know how much to feed it so that it peaks at a certain time, then use that to make enough for the "sourdough" section of the formula (at his hydration). His 5% inoculation might be ready in 14 to 16 hours, but you might need more. If you can use the 14-16 hours as a guideline, then aim for that amount of time since it might make a difference in the end result. If not, then just feed it so it is ready when you are.

The main reason I think you are right and the rye culture is used (rather than the way I had read it originally) is that in the index he mentions that he keeps 2 cultures, a liquid white, and a stiff rye. He says that a microbiologist said there is no need to use a rye culture for rye breads when a white culture will suffice. But he finds that the rye culture makes a better product when used for rye breads.

Sourdoughs cultures are too varied from person to person to always follow the recipe exactly. It was worth a try the first time, but experience tells me that you have to know your own culture and not presume it will be the same as the author's.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

The sub-recipe for 'sourdough' for this recipe is whole-rye flour (100%), water (83%) and 'mature sourdough culture' (5%).

For me, and the reason for this post, the failure was at the sourdough sub-recipe stage; haven't gotten to the final build.

 Something stopped the culture from proliferating.  Could it be a sudden water chemical change?  Or sudden drop in temp.  5% is low for an inoculation but works in summer or a warm kitchen, but in winter, I tend to go much higher, closer to 20%.  Perhaps keeping the starter warmer would keep in line with the recipe.  

If the starter was fed a mixture of rye and wheat, I wouldn't expect any baulking. 

Taste the various flours for "after taste" to make sure non are rancid.  

I would be suspicious of the water.  It has happened to me several times that I've had good public tap water and then suddenly ZAP, too much of something killed my starter or some of the bacteria from one day to the next.  Hope you have some rye starter from "before" this incident to fall back onto.  

Let the water stand out in a pitcher 24 hours covered with paper or cloth and try feeding some of your rye sd culture again, normally.  When it does rise, let it peak out and start to fall back before using in the recipe.  Let the "mother" rye culture stand a few hours before feeding, partially rising and storing as usual.  No need to be a purist, just add notes to the margin of the recipe.

I do have all the ingredients here, if you PM me the metric recipe (I own the book but it is a quarter turn of the globe away from me)  I'll follow the direction and we can compare.  Warning: I use spelt as my WW as I prefer the taste and it is also a wheat.  It also combines well with rye, they grew up together over the centuries. :)

Maverick's picture
Maverick

I won't put the whole thing here (I can PM it to Mini if the OP has difficulty), but here is the portion that is having problems (it is just the making of the levain):

sourdough

Medium*-rye flour 250 g = 100%

Water 208 g = 83%

mature sourdough culture 12.5 g = 5%

total 470.5 g

1. sourdough: Prepare the sourdough and ripen for 14 to 16 hours at 70°F. 

PreparIng the Sourdough

The sourdough is prepared by dispersing the mature culture into the water, adding the flour, and mixing by hand or machine until the flour is thoroughly incorporated. The consistency should be fairly stiff, but loose enough to allow it to “breathe.” Sprinkle rye flour on top and cover the bowl with baker’s linen or plastic. The sourdough will ripen in 14 to 16 hours at about 70°F. Adjust ripening times based on ambient temperature and humidity. The ripe sourdough should be domed, with a pleasingly acidic tang. If the sourdough has collapsed, the room it ripened in is too warm or the length of ripening is too long. If it appears not to have matured at all, the room temperature is too cool or ripening time should be lengthened. 

Excerpt From: Jeffrey Hamelman. “Bread.”

*The book says whole-rye, but the errata sheet says medium-rye

BakerBuck's picture
BakerBuck

Maverick,

You and I are using different editions of Hamelman's "Bread:...".

the errata was last editied in 2011 and the second edition was printed in 2013.

Your page 210 has 66 percent rye and my page 210 has "Whole-Rye and Whole-Wheat Bread".

66 percent rye recipe is on page 231 in the second edition and it correctly says 'medium rye'.

All that is beside the point.  The important thing, Maverick, is that you have responded to my dilemma by reading my post and replying to me with your time, your interest and your expertise.  Anyone reading this thread should pay attention  the instructions that you took the time to write down here; I should, too.  I raised the cultures slightly differently and if I try again, I will follow them exactly as you and I are reading them.  Thank you for your kind help.

Mini,

We are both careful.  I boil the chlorine out of my water and let it cool.  I buy only small bags (5 lb) of flour well before the expiration date (mostly KA but also Giusto and my whole rye is organic from a coop.  I always sniff the bins if not bagged) and they hardly ever last two months.  You are right, the unexpected can happen.

I will try it one more time on my own and then I may take you up on your offer if I stumble again.  Oh, and I am going to try your rye recipe.

BB

 

Maverick's picture
Maverick

Oh, I didn't notice that the errata was for the 1st edition. I actually have the 2nd edition book and didn't realize that the errata was for the 1st edition. Thanks for pointing that out so I can now ignore the errata sheet. So I guess the whole-rye flour is supposed to be used for the "sourdough" section. He really should have called that the "levain" or something. Either way, good luck and let us know the results. Good luck

Debra Wink's picture
Debra Wink

Hmm. Levain is a French word. Probably not appropriate for rye-based sourdough  : )

All the best,
dw

Maverick's picture
Maverick

Yeah, you are correct as usual. Glad to see you lurking around.

Debra Wink's picture
Debra Wink

Hi BB,

Maverick has you pointed in the right direction, but I wanted to highlight the sprinkling of rye flour on top as a key part of the instruction. A stiff rye sour is not going to rise up as noticeably as you're used to and so shape of the top, and pattern that develops in the flour provide the visual cues.

When ripened, the sourdough should be domed, with islands of rye (from the sprinkled flour) interspersed with shiny areas of sourdough.   - page 206

This will resemble the top of a baked "crinkle" cookie. If you still don't think it's ripe by these signs, give it longer and feel free to increase the amount of inoculum to 10% or more next time.

Best wishes,
dw

alfanso's picture
alfanso

BB,

As it is relevant to what Debra just posted, here is a write-up on building a rye sour with photos posted by David Snyder a number of years ago.  This should help you see what you are looking for in the build.

alan

BakerBuck's picture
BakerBuck
Maverick's picture
Maverick

I am surprised that the sprinkling of rye would make a big difference (but I don't work with rye enough to be knowledgeable on the point):

this layer of our provides an environmental barrier and protects the our-water paste from drying as it ripens (206)

I would think that the sprinkling would actually dry out the the surface. But maybe it is the additional food at the surface that keeps things moving or something. Why does this such a key part? The link for the visual is excellent at showing what Hamelman refers to as "islands of rye."

All this talk of rye bread has made me want some. I wonder how this bread would taste with white whole wheat since that is what I have on hand. I only have a white AP flour starter (100% hydration), do you think I should spend a couple days to convert it to rye, or just use the culture I have?

BakerBuck's picture
BakerBuck

You can use some of the white next time you refresh to start a separate rye culture (Hamelman gives directions) and do as I do: drive yourself busy keeping two cultures that mature at different times :( .

Seriously, I wouldn't be the one to ask; I am a suppliant, not a maven.  This is my first serious foray into ryes.

BB

 

Debra Wink's picture
Debra Wink

You get to relax, I think Maverick's question was directed at me : )

Why does this such a key part?

Simply for the reason I stated above. It provides a visual gauge of readiness in the absence of a rise and surface appearance characteristic of gas-trapping gluten. Perhaps David will jump in here and add to the conversation as his photos illustrate nicely what to look for in reading the flour layer. But I'm guessing the pictured build had an overall hydration over 100% (don't know the hydration of the inoculum). The one you are working with, BB, is 83%. It should show a similar pattern, but stiffer probably means less expansion than in David's example.

Maverick, since the inoculum is only 5% of the flour weight (and half of that is water), it will pretty much be converted in one refreshment. But if you want to see it in action and confirm the ripening time, play with it. You'll figure out if it's worth keeping a rye sour, or not.

My best,
dw

Maverick's picture
Maverick

Thanks for the reply DW. I never thought about using it just as a visual cue. I figured there was something I was missing.

Thank you BakeBuck for bringing this all up. I now have something more to play with in Hamelman's book :) Too bad I am probably the only one in the house that eats rye. I am interested to read how you next attempt goes.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

just made my recipe as well and had lots of questions so don't be afraid to ask when you get that far.  There are also about 3 postings of discussion on the formula.  Most of Susan's Q's were on timing... I think of the fermenting as one long block of time that gets cut up from mixing the dough to shoving it into the oven. 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

(sourdough starter culture) was just slow....  

" noticing a collection of honeycombed bubbles and a  looser consistency involving the bottom 1/3 of the culture."    from the original post.  

(the tossing just about broke my rye crusted heart!   I had visions of a very tasty rye loaf dancing in my head.)

The starter probably just needed a good stirring while it was fermenting...  stirring won't hurt a starter.  I think 83% hydration would be enough to raise a rye starter a little bit, but not quite 50% risen (if doubling is 100%) from what I can guess JH is asking for.  That is about the lower limit for a good rise on 100% rye fine flour.  The sprinkled flour layer is helpful as it forms a skin on the surface to prevent gas from escaping unnoticed.  Any expansion will show up to make the crinkle effect.  Not everone notices pin-holing.  And the islands will drift apart like the continents until a big bubble or two show up and lower a section of them.  That would be too much expansion.  

BakerBuck's picture
BakerBuck

Kindnesses and advice acknowledged, with thanks.  I will try again after baking a standard sourdough.  Yeah, I hated to throw it out, too.  I let it ferment 24 hours total before refrigerating it overnight.  In the morning is when I checked and found the bubbles in the lower 1/3.  I was thinking of using it as 'biga fodder', but I am too precise in my formulae at this stage and haven't yet gravitated toward the comfort of serendipity (with bread).

BB