The Fresh Loaf

A Community of Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts.

Starter Troubles

Kelownagurl's picture
Kelownagurl

Starter Troubles

Hi all,  I'm new here but I've been reading this forum to get some ideas.  I've been trying to get a decent starter going for awhile now.  My current batch is about 3 weeks old now and still won't rise much.  I tried using the pineapple juice method to get it started and only use rye flour and water now, more or less 100% hydration except I live in a very dry area so I have to use about 75% water or I will have dough instead of a semi-liquid.

After a week or so, it was rising about 1 cm. (1/2 inch) each time (about 25-30% rise?) and I started feeding it twice a day.  But I just never seem to be able to get it to double or more in size. And now, this past week, it's stopped rising much as all so I went back to feeding it once a day. It smells a bit sour when I feed it but a little yeasty once I've added the fresh flour. It appears to have lots of bubbles inside it. 

I keep it in the oven with the light on and the door ajar because my house is cool. It's about 25-27C in there (I have a thermometer in there).

I've tried adding a picture although I think it's sideways.  You can see the line I drew on the jar last night so it hasn't risen at all, but it is bubbly.

I'm just dying to try actually making a loaf of bread...  Any suggestions on how to get this starter going??

cranbo's picture
cranbo

What kind of flour are you feeding it? And how much (quantities in g or cups) are you discarding and feeding? 

You have bubbles, so it does have some activity already.  

Do this to help kickstart it further: 

  1. Try not feeding it for 1 day.
  2. On day 2, without discarding any starter, feed it with flour & water, stir to combine. 
  3. Between day 2 &  day 3, pay attention. Did your starter rise further? 
  4. Day 4: if it rose, start just feeding it once a day. If it didn't rise, just feed it again without discarding, like in step 2 above. 
  5. By day 5 it should be nice and active. 

Try keeping your starter warmer. Keep it in the oven with the door closed. 

Kelownagurl's picture
Kelownagurl

I am using 50g starter, 50g water, and about 40g dark rye flour.

I can keep the door closed.  It can get up past 32C though - (90+F).

And thanks I will try exactly what you have suggested.  Fingers crossed!

PetraR's picture
PetraR

I would not feed it for a couple of days but stir it a few times a day.

On the 3rd day feed it with no discard and see how it goes.

After that discard half and feed.

pmccool's picture
pmccool

It's time to make some bread!  All those bubbles of different sizes indicate a starter that is ready for use.

As to why it doesn't double, it's mainly because of the rye flour.  An all-rye starter will look puffy as it ferments but it is not very likely to double or more in volume like a starter made with wheat flour.  It can't.  It doesn't have that stretchy gluten network which expands like a ballon when inflated.  

it seems that you may not have a clear understanding of bakers percentages.  Higher hydration doughs, those with a greater percentage of water by WEIGHT as compared to the weight of flour, tend to be softer instead of stiffer.  Your OP seems to indicate you think it is the other way around.  Your present feeding regime of 40g water to 50g of flour is perfectly fine.  That works out to 80% hydration (40/50x100=80%).

Paul

PetraR's picture
PetraR

I do have a pure rye starter , it was 100% hydration for a while and doubled and now it is 133% hydration and almost tripples.

 

Song Of The Baker's picture
Song Of The Baker

Paul, actually I have a 100% rye starter that almost triples at feedings.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

to me, it looks ready to go but way underfed.  

Try this:

Remove 10g and feed 50g rye and 50g water, mark, keep it warm 25°C,  then watch it rise starting in about 4 hrs.

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

She is the Starter Master around here:-)  Make sure you are feeding equal weights of flour and water not equal volume of them.  Your rye starter looks a little too liquid for 100% hydration and the bubbles may be escaping instead of rising the mass 100%.

If Mini's test works and the 110 G of levain doubles, use it to make a 1:2:3 SD and see how it performs.  Looking good so far! 

Song Of The Baker's picture
Song Of The Baker

I recently revived my 100% rye starter after being in the fridge, un-fed for about 6 months!  Mini's suggestions helped me.  Basically, I had to feed it then wait a few days in a warm (82 degrees) room until air bubbles appeared.  Key is not to rush the feedings until you actually see some movement.  I know my situation is different from yours as you are just trying to get it started where mine was a healthy starter to begin with.  I recall I was having major issues starting my starter a few years ago when Mini helped me out.  Whatever she suggested worked for me!  I believe all I had to do was wait longer between feedings.  I would also maybe try a good organic rye flour just until you get things moving.  I use flour from a local mill here in Chilliwack.  In Kelowna, you should be able to find the brand in grocery stores - Anita's Organic Mill flours.  Check out their website and find out where they sell in K-town

http://anitasorganic.com/

Kelownagurl's picture
Kelownagurl

MiniOven - pardon my ignorance, but are you suggesting adding the 50g water and 50g flour to the 10g of starter, or to the remaining starter?

 

Thanks.

cranbo's picture
cranbo

Yes Mini is suggesting to save 10g of starter, and feed with 50g water and 50g flour. 

Feel free to try both of our suggestions. It should be easy enough to take some of your starter and try Mini's approach, as well as mine (just leave it alone for a day, and if there's still no activity, feed it without discarding). 

Kelownagurl's picture
Kelownagurl

Last night, I stole 10g of starter from the jar (still leaving that one unfed for a day or two then will follow Cranbo's suggestion of feeding without removing any) and I added 50g of rye flour and 50g of water to the 10g of starter.  It was very thick and I had to spoon it into my jar and kind of press it down but it is still "hilly".   

Nothing much has happened since then. There are some tiny bubbles but it hasn't risen yet. See the picture but please note that the larger "bubbles" are just air pockets because the starter is so thick. I think the picture looks more bubbly than it actually is in real life - also there is some starter on the side of the jar so it may look like it has risen higher than the line, but it hasn't really.

So I will wait.  Tonight I will add flour/water to the other remaining starter that has been unfed for over 24 hours.  It's not doing much either by the way, but there are still some tiny bubbles. 

The oven has been about 26.5-27C. 

I may try getting some different rye flour as suggested by Song of the Baker - if not the brand he suggested, then another fresher organic rye flour. 

I've read conflicting info about using tap water. I've been using tap water, room temp.  It does has chlorine in it but it's not strong.  Should I try distilled water?

Should I try using pineapple juice to kick start it?

Thanks again for all of your help.

 

Mini's suggestion

 

cranbo's picture
cranbo

You're on your way! :) Is the photo above of the starter that is being starved? 

If you can, share another photo after 24 hours.  Also share a photo of your rye starter. 

You can add pineapple juice if you want, it doesn't really matter. Distilled water may be good but also shouldn't matter too much. The key is patience. It's going to take a few more days, but no big hurry...if you've been waiting 3 weeks already for your starter to grow, 5 more days shouldn't matter. Trust me, it will start :)

 

Kelownagurl's picture
Kelownagurl

Cranbo - that other photo is the one where I took 10g and added 50g water and 50g rye flour as Mini suggested. It's been 24 hours and it looks pretty much the same as it did last night, but when I stirred it, it seems like it has lots of tiny bubbles now even though it hasn't risen. I'm going to give it another day and see if anything happens.

Here is a shot of the one being starved. I haven't fed it for 1 1/2 or 2 days now (I think?) and I just added more flour/water without removing any starter.

 

Sorry I don't know why I can't flip it upright.  :)

 

Starved for 48 hrs and fed today

 

 

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

Could be the water. I only used boiled tap water cooled to room temperature. Always feed same amount of flour and water by weight. It looks like you fed it too much at the beginning not giving the yeasts time to multiply. If it's sluggish give it a stir. But I do see a lot of bubbles. With some TLC I think you have the makings of a good starter. 

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

I struggled to get mine going too! I wondered about tap water so used boiled water but that didn't work for me.  now I use only bottled "spring" water.  I used a pinch of ascorbic acid in desperation.  Now I have an active starter, but exactly why eludes me.  (it is white flour not rye though so not sure if that  makes a difference)7

shaner12350's picture
shaner12350

I had a lot of trouble trying to get any rise from my stater using tap water,  and l later read that some cities add chlorine and chloramine top the water source.  Chlorine will dissipate if you sit it out overnight,  but the chloramine will remain and will kill all of the bacteria.  Your city water department should have a website and should say what chemicals they use to clean the water.  If you see chloramine, it's time to go get some spring water

Kelownagurl's picture
Kelownagurl

No Chloramine in our water.  Just chlorine and UV.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

the 10:50:50 test showed us that it's not underfed.  Rats!  And the water is sounding very suspicious.  Stand a large pitcher of tap water (if you haven't done it already) off to the side of the sink loosely covered to use a few days from now.  It can be used for feeding starters as well as making dough.

Waiting and not pushing the flour feedings is the way to go then.  Waiting for the pH to drop.  It may easily take a few days.  What aromas are you detecting from the various jars?

Kelownagurl's picture
Kelownagurl

Another 24 hours has passed.

The jar on the left is the one where I took 10g and added 50 g water and 50g flour. Mini had thought it may have been underfed but it appears that is not the case. It has not risen but it puffier and spongier than yesterday. Mini's suggestion.

The jar on the right is the original starter that was left for 2 days and then fed without removing any, has risen a little but not much. Then I fed it 50g water 40 g rye flour so it is thick but still liquid enough to get into the jar and be level. Cranbo's suggestion.

I'm not sure if I should feed either of them tonight, or wait another day.

I set some water aside this morning to dechlorinate. Our local water has no other chemicals in it.

I do plan to go out and buy some fresher organic rye flour as soon as I have time.

 

 

cranbo's picture
cranbo

They are both looking fine, but both still look very young. How do they smell?

Again, be patient, it will happen, I promise :) Based on how they look now, it could take 5-7 more days. 

You won't hurt either at this point by waiting another day without feeding. Wait until Friday to feed. Still keeping them in a warm oven, I assume? 

You're doing great, just wait for it. When you're getting started, sourdough is more of a test of patience than anything, don't give up! 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

just stir occasionally and wait, don't feed either one.   I would just leave them alone overnight.  From the way the right one fills the jar, I would put a shallow bowl under it should it decide to go over in the night.  (positive thinking)  Does it smell beery?

Take the jar on the left, the 10:50:50 one, add another 50g stood water and no flour.  Stir it up real good beating some air into it.  Then let it alone till morning and the next day until it smells not nutty but beery.  (You could also just pitch it but why not have a little fun?)  

When you pick up on beer notes, add just a level Tbs of flour to thicken.

Kelownagurl's picture
Kelownagurl

not likely it's gonna go over in the night.  :)

 

ok  I will follow your instructions and report back tomorrow.

 

thanks!

doughooker's picture
doughooker

It's not going to smell so much of beer as of yeast. Beer smells of alcohol, malt and hops. The smell of alcohol doesn't come in a starter until it has become quite mature.

It's not necessary to whip air into it, either. It's not a meringue. You just want to keep the ingredients dispersed.

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

I don't wish to confuse you. Can get very daunting with too much advice coming from all directions. You've already got two on the go and quite a large quantity too. But I'll tell you what I think and leave it in your hands. 

Too much feeding before the yeasts have taken root. You feed the yeasts as they have eaten through the flour and need more food to multiply. But clearly the yeasts are sluggish and haven't the strength yet. Once yeasts are fully active they'll eat through that in 12 hours no problem and will run out of steam unless fed more. But if they aren't active yet and you discard / feed then all you're doing is diluting and discarding young yeasts that are trying to take hold. 

I think you should take some off and turn it into a thicker paste by adding more flour. Then for the next two or three days just stir every few hours. Give the little beasties a chance. Then after a couple of days give them some more food. And stir every few hours. See what happens. 

PetraR's picture
PetraR

choose one of the jars to carry on with, I would suggest the one that got more spongy.

You confuse yourself and get yourself all worked up if you have 2 on the go.

Just do not feed and stir  for a day or even 2 before the next feeding.

cranbo's picture
cranbo

Any updates today Kelownagurl? How are your starters doing?

Kelownagurl's picture
Kelownagurl

I turned the thicker starter into pancakes this morning and kept the other one to feed.  I bought some fresh organic rye flour and dechlorinated some water.  This afternoon, I kept 50g starter, which was only looking slightly bubbly, and added 50g water and 40g flour.  Let's see if the new flour and water will make any difference.  Sigh. Patience.  I am going to try to add two pictures. One is the 50g of starter in a bowl, and the 2nd is the same starter after I added fresh flour and water.

Song Of The Baker's picture
Song Of The Baker

Keep at it.  I can feel your frustration because I went through all this before.  I went 3 months trying at a white bread flour starter before I gave up and moved on to my rye starter.  Hang in there.  Something will kick it into gear.

Oh, and are you absolutely sure you have the temperature correct in the room you keep it in?  This was a MAJOR factor for me.  Everyone would say to keep it at room temperature so I did.  After a while I realized that my 'room temperature' was not nearly enough to get my starter going and strong.  I had to get a thermometer and make sure that the room read a definite 82 degrees.  Nice and hot.  Now my healthy starter doubles in any temp over 68 degrees but in the beginning, it needed the room hot to even get bubbly and alive.

John

Kelownagurl's picture
Kelownagurl

Reads pretty steadily 26-27C.  That's about 80-81F.  I could bring it up another degree I think. I am hoping the fresh flour and dechlorinated water will help.  At this point, I'm just hoping for bread by Christmas :)

Song Of The Baker's picture
Song Of The Baker

Ok good.  Just making sure as I know it is quite cold in K-town this time of year!

Good luck!

John

cranbo's picture
cranbo

So you discarded some of the starter? Until your starter gets more active, I recommend that you not discard any starter before feeding. 

If there's still little to no activity, put it in a place that's even warmer. Don't be afraid to keep it in the 85-90F range. Warmth is your friend at this stage of the process. 

What does the starter smell like now? 

 

Kelownagurl's picture
Kelownagurl

But how much should I feed it if I'm not taking any out?  I may need to get a bigger jar. :)

It mostly smells sour and maybe a hint of yeasty-ness if I let myself dream a little. :)

placebo's picture
placebo

It's not so much about not discarding but not diluting. You want to pH of the mixture to fall because that triggers the yeast to awaken. Every feeding sets this process back a bit, so in the beginning, you want to do small, infrequent feedings. If you start with 50 grams of starter, you want to feed it only 25 grams each of flour and water.

cranbo's picture
cranbo

Yes, definitely switch to a bigger jar or bowl. Keep it covered of course. 

I suggest you don't feed it at all, until it starts to react more. If you're going to feed for now, try just 20g flour and 20g water, and no more than once a day. 

Sour is a good sign! Has it gone thru a bad smelling stage yet? Be sure and smell it every day, and try to document any changes. I can't remember if you used pineapple juice on this one yet or not, but this will help skip the stinky phase. It also shouldn't hurt to stir it once a day to redistribute food. 

I wouldn't change your flour right now in your main starter, but I recommend another experiment to see if a change in flour will help. Take 20g of your current starter, and in a separate container, mix it with 20g of all purpose flour and 20g water. Leave it for 3 days without doing anything. See if anything happens to it. 

 

doughooker's picture
doughooker

I suggest you don't feed it at all, until it starts to react more.

This ^ ^ ^

Kelownagurl's picture
Kelownagurl

So it just smells sour, not much else.  

It starts to get a bit of a crust on it after 24 hours, so I will stir it a bit to avoid that while I'm not feeding it.

I did start it with pineapple juice, that was almost a month ago now though. It used to rise 1cm but now it barely moves.

Thanks for the all the hints. :)

 

Song Of The Baker's picture
Song Of The Baker

There shouldn't be a crust forming after 24 hours.  Are you covering it?  I cover my small Mason jar with plastic wrap and just poke 2 small holes in it with a wooden skewer.

John

Kelownagurl's picture
Kelownagurl

I do have a baggie over it loosely.  And you're right, it doesn't dry out in 24 hours but if I leave it for 3 days or more, it will. 

cranbo's picture
cranbo

If you're gonna use a baggie, use a rubber band with it. Will keep it from drying out. 

The crust is not that much of a problem, honestly, but it may keep you from seeing how well it rises. 

placebo's picture
placebo

If it has been a month and it's still not rising, you might want to start a second attempt on the side in case this first one turns out to be a bust. Invariably, what will happen is as soon as you give in and start the second attempt, the first one will finally take off. ;)

doughooker's picture
doughooker

Take 20g of your current starter, and in a separate container, mix it with 20g of all purpose flour and 20g water.

Do as suggested above, keep it in a warm place and check it after 4 hours. It should be bubbly and frothy. Don't worry about volume or expansion.

This starter is almost a month old. It is well out of the leuc phase and is probably mature and should be ready to raise a loaf.

Try making a loaf if the starter mixture becomes bubbly/frothy after a few hours. If your dough recipe calls for more than the 20g flour and 20g water suggested above, use a larger quantity initially. Use enough so that you will have enough starter to make a loaf.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

You must have nerves of steel by now.    

I know you are trying to keep the starter at about 100% hydration.  In my own experience the thinner the mixture the faster it ferments.  It also tends to dry out less.  You can even float a little water on top of the starter and/or  make it thinner if you want to.  Once yeast establish, they literally stir the starter themselves clouding up the water as flour and water separate.  

In fact, after all this time, starting up another starter might contain a greater variety of the natural bacteria and yeast to get the starter on the right track.  You could try a no fuss starter.  Just put a few tablespoons of flour in the bottom of a jar, pour water (or unsweetened juice) over the top to triple or quadruple the volume, stir or not, and leave it to settle at 26°C for 5 to 6 days.  Covered as you have with plastic and a loose rubber band.  Feeding it only happens when you smell yeast.  

They method of warming the oven leaves me to wonder if the starter hasn't gotten too warm as the heat turns on and off.  A pan of water holding the jars might help with that. Throwing a dish towel over the jars and pot to prevent the tops from getting too warm.

Another trick for cooler temps is to place the soupy wet rye flour inside two zipper bags  (say one table spoon of flour and two  or three of water) and tuck it loosely into your vest pocket, your body heat will do the warming. At night while you sleep, don't sleep with it or count the time -- so one day of wearing is about half a day.  That way you can be sure you are also not overheating it in an oven.  Do open the zippers to let out building gasses while checking for aromas.   

Then remove any scum and add enough flour to lightly thicken it to a soft paste.  Then leave it alone keeping warm until you have seen that paste rise and fall back down.  In the case of the zipper bags, the paste will look like a sponge and might burst the seams when it expands.  

Kelownagurl's picture
Kelownagurl

Just to clarify - I don't have the oven turned on.  I've only left the oven light on, the door is ajar (because it gets too hot even with just the light on), and I have a tea towel draped over the door.  I keep a thermometer in there and the temp is a steady 26-27C.  I only take it out if I need to use my oven.

I've tried the watery kind, I've tried the thicker kind - everyone seems to have a different idea and I've tried them all. LOL. 

Maybe I'll start a new watery batch.  I don't have any pineapple juice but I do have some OJ.

Thanks again for all the suggestions...

cranbo's picture
cranbo

Have you tried the experiment that mixinator and I suggested? Any update? 

Also, have you tried using bottled water instead of tap water to rule that out as an inhibiting factor? 

Kelownagurl's picture
Kelownagurl

i haven't fed it since Saturday 4pm. Some tiny bubbles but not yeast smell, just sour. 

I am am using tap water that sat out on the counter for a few days so the chlorine dissipates. 

doughooker's picture
doughooker

i haven't fed it since Saturday 4pm. Some tiny bubbles but not yeast smell, just sour.

Here is the experiment cranbo and I suggested:

Take 20g of your current starter, and in a separate container, mix it with 20g of all purpose flour and 20g water.

Do as suggested above, keep it in a warm place and check it after 4 hours. It should be bubbly and frothy. Don't worry about volume or expansion.

Kelownagurl's picture
Kelownagurl

Ah ok, no I missed that suggestion, sorry.  Now I have a question - you want me to use all purpose flour instead of rye then, right?

Kelownagurl's picture
Kelownagurl

OK here's today's pics.

 

10am  - 20g starter, plus 20g AP flour, and 20g dechlorinated water

 

3pm - some bubbling happening

doughooker's picture
doughooker

Do you pick up a yeasty aroma?

It's ready.

Use this new starter to bake a trial loaf. Keep the old starter in the fridge to inoculate your next batch, just as you have done today.

Kelownagurl's picture
Kelownagurl

It smells more sour than yeasty.

OK so I have 60g of starter.  Can you point me to a basic white sourdough bread recipe that is more or less foolproof so I can try this out?

cranbo's picture
cranbo

It looks like your starter may have expanded/grown a little bit from your last 2 photos. Did it? If so, that's a good sign.

Honestly, your starter doesn't look bubbly enough yet, so I wouldn't bake with it yet. Continue to feed your "offshoot" starter (i.e., the white starter) with another 20g of all-purpose flour, and 20g of water, and wait one more day. 

 

Here are a couple of pics of what a really healthy, bubbling 100% hydration starter should look like (one is animated, so you can see the rise and fall). If it doesn't look & behave like this, it's probably not ready yet:

As you can see from the photos, it's much easier to gauge expansion in a clear, tall sized plastic or glass container (like the jar you were using previously).  FYI, a beautifully photo-rich guide to making a starter, which is the source of these photos can be found here: http://foodtravelthought.com/7-easy-steps-making-incredible-sourdough-starter-scratch/

 

I have had a similar issue to you in the past: I created a new whole grain flour starter using this method, and I ended up with a goopy, sour puddle that wouldn't really bubble or rise well within the expected period of time. I suspect it's because there were lots of lactic acid bacteria that had built up (making it sour) but not enough yeast had colonized the starter yet. What caused that? Not sure, maybe it was the flour? It did finally take off, but it took over 14 days for it to get there...so keep at it. 

 

Kelownagurl's picture
Kelownagurl

Yes, the picture indicates that it did grow and get more bubbly.

That link was one of the ones I tried.  I started with the pineapple juice method and then once it was bubbling fairly well, I switched to the feed suggestions (40:40:40) suggested in Food:Travel:Thought. 

Maybe I will try it again from scratch following his method from the beginning (although I haven't had much luck starting with flour and water).

Kelownagurl's picture
Kelownagurl

This is pretty much what mine looks like now. :)

doughooker's picture
doughooker

Honestly, your starter doesn't look bubbly enough yet, so I wouldn't bake with it yet.

Well, no sense in continuing to dispense contradictory advice. She can keep refreshing, feeding, discarding and waiting and maybe if she's lucky it'll be ready to bake by Thanksgiving 2015. Better pick up a 50-pound sack of flour for all that discarding and refreshing. Better make that a 100-pound sack. This might take until 2016.

cranbo's picture
cranbo

Sure, let's do that math ;)

5lb (2260g) bag of all-purpose flour costs maybe $5 USD? Probably a lot less. 

20g flour for each feed as I've suggested in my posts translates to ~113 feeds per 5lb bag, or about $0.04 per 20g feed. 

This will give her enough for 56 twice-daily feeds (close to 2 months). She shouldn't need 5lbs of all-purpose flour to get a starter going, and even if it does, it only costs $5...no big investment there.  

How much does 1 gallon (3780mL) of bottled filtered/distilled water cost? $2? That will provide ~189  20g (20mL) feedings...another cheap and easy change help her eliminate this variable. 

I think your point (based on your other post) was that she try to bake now. Of course there's no harm in it, by all means she should try it! I can say that based on her photos, in my opinion her starter doesn't look strong enough yet to successfully leaven a bread. 

doughooker's picture
doughooker

It did finally take off, but it took over 14 days for it to get there

Her starter is already a month old.

cranbo's picture
cranbo

Exactly. She is unable so far to figure out what she is doing wrong, and that's why she is here asking us for advice. 

Both of us have made similar suggestions about creating starter branches and other strategies that she can take without starting over. If the change to white flour is going to help her, it may take her a few more days (IIRC that "branch" is only 1-2 days old!) 

I guess I don't see any point in starting over unless something else changes. Is she going to start over doing it the exact same way? Then it's likely she'll get the same result, so why bother? As someone once said, "the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and expecting a different result." She needs to change flour, water, hydration, temperature, feed amounts, and feed frequency to see if she can break this cycle of it not working. None of those changes change requires her to start over completely. In fact, every feed "branch" that she uses to create a variation is almost like starting over. 

And in the meanwhile, hopefully she's learning something about the ins and outs of building a starter, what it's supposed to look like, and what can go wrong. 

Everyone has their own opinion, including me :)

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

But I think you need to start again from scratch. Harsh but kind. You've spent a few weeks trying to save a "dead" starter with a lot of flour waste when you could have created one in a week with far less flour.

Start off with very small quantities and build...

 

Day One:

5g flour (preferably whole rye)

5g Boiled tap water cooled to room temperature

 

Day Two:

Add 10g water and stir till evenly mixed

+ 10g flour and mix into paste

 

Day Three:

Add 30g water and stir till evenly mixed

+ 30g flour and mix into paste

 

Day Four:

Discard 60g (or 3/4 if you wish to eyeball it) then..

Add 30g water and stir till evenly mixed

+ 30g flour and mix into paste

 

Day Five:

Same as day 4 and carry on till starter is ready.

 

Just remember to always use boiled tap water cooled down.

We're always feeding 1:1:1

Use whole rye flour

Feed once every 24 hours (many say more but you'll have success this way to and doesn't get too wasteful, time consuming or complicated).

If you wish at the 12 hour mark give it a stir.

 

 

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

Day Four:

Discard 60g (or 2/3rds if you wish to eyeball it) then..

Add 30g water and stir till evenly mixed

+ 30g flour and mix into paste

Jane Dough's picture
Jane Dough

HI Kelownagurl from winter in Manitoba.

I've followed your progress because it's not so long ago I was in the same boat. I remember well those first couple of weeks when you wonder if this is really going to take off.  I have to say I'd have started another starter long ago in parallel.  You can keep trying to get the original going but I'd be wanting to see some forward progress.  But I can't see as of your last posting that you have a lot to lose.  I've spent less useful $10 than the bag of flour you've used to date.  You can always make crumpets or waffles with what you have.

My starter is just over a year old and made from scratch.  it just keeps getting better.  I followed the formula from NorthWest Sourdough - although it's on many other sites too - using pineapple.  I considered the purist method (no raisins no pineapple) but I wanted success more :)  I've since helped others start a culture using raisins with success also.

Anyway I followed the instruction pretty much to the letter.  I made sure my container was squeaky clean and tried to stick as closely to the timetable outlined as was humanly possible.  I did, however, make a point of using only organic flours and raisins and/or pineapple juice and filtered water.  I didn't want anything sabotaging me such as unknown additives.  And I baked in two weeks with satisfactory results - not stellar but that probably wasn't the starter's fault.  I'm still using that  same starter,  modifying it however I want with flour and hydration to get the starter I want for a particular formula.  By that I mean that perhaps I want a very white or creamy starter or maybe I want a strong rye taste. 

As a rule I use dmsnyder's blender of 70% unbleached or white, 20% WW and 10% rye for my starter feed unless I'm buildling a particular taste.    I always use organic for the starter but not necessarily for the bake.  I keep the starter on the counter or in the fridge depending on what I think my schedule will be for baking.   I always have a little bit tucked away in the fridge that I use sporadically so that I don't ever lose my original starter. That way I always have a back up source and I don't have waste - a lesson from dabrownman. 

The key for me was  PATIENCE.  Sourdough baking is not for the express lane.  That starts early on with the creation of the starter - perhaps the biggest test of patience.  Once you have some success behind you the patience is easier to call upon.

This is the point where I say if it wasn't for all the bakers here that take the time to post their formulas and photos I'd be still reading text books half the night.  This site is full of generous souls who are always willing to help.  Something that I found particular helpful is the underlying understanding that there is no failure here.  Every bake has/had some value even if only for the learning experience. I have to say I'm pretty good at bread pudding now too.

I'm at the point where I am experimenting more and really enjoying it.  I look at what flour needs to be used up or I try and copy loaves like Cobb's and I like mine better.  My reading material is no longer a good novel.  It's Jeffery Hamelman or something like that.  Honestly I think everyone here is a bit OCD.

The link to the starter formula I used is below.  Just as an aside, here in Canada we get some wonderful flours.  Canada takes a back seat to no one when it comes to flour production, quality and variety. A whole wheat can be so many different taste experiences it's mind boggling.

http://www.northwestsourdough.com/index.php/starter-info/make-starter/

Good luck with your endeavors!  I look forward to reading of your success.

 

 

Kelownagurl's picture
Kelownagurl

Thanks for your thoughtful response.  Always good to hear from another Canadian.  I did start this particular batch using the pineapple juice and things were going along well for a bit but something must have gone awry (a-rye?) after 2 weeks because that's where I ran into trouble.

I am having a blast trying to get this started (although driving my family a bit nuts with the feeding schedules and one door always ajar.  This is "slow food" par excellence. 

I will try a flour mixture that you ache suggested and thanks for the link!

Jane Dough's picture
Jane Dough

I have been known to bring my starter to work if I'm trying to maintain a feeding schedule for a particular result.  

And I am pretty confident in saying I doubt I am alone in taking my starter to work.  hmm...  How bout a bring your starter to work day?

Kelownagurl's picture
Kelownagurl

Can't find your last comment right now but wanted to respond to it because it made me laugh out loud.  :) :)

I'm actually having a lot of fun playing around with all of this and as much as I am looking forward to actually making bread, it's fun coming home from work every day and seeing what's happened. I totally agree I need to start a new one though.  A month of one that just won't get going is enough.  :)

 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

with Rogers Rye for a awhile, ok, almost a year and a half, and yes, I did end up with some starters that had their own ideas as to what constituted a starter. 

I do have a Question for you...  when it got all bubbly and stuff and you switch to feeding 40:40:40  or basically 1:1:1, Did you continue with heating it up in the oven light?    

Usually when the yeast bubbles kick in, a 1:1:1 feeding is too small and a larger portion of flour or smaller portion of starter is needed to inoculate.   If temps remain elevated, the starter eats thru all the food in just a few hours, the sourness increases and with the next scant 1:1:1 feeding, the lack of food stresses it more, eventually  there is decline in yeast as the yeast go dormant.  Saving themselves for better times.  Then they need a good abundant feeding and a few days to wake up and rebuild their numbers.  Now there are those who will argue that a low pH (very acid) should not affect the yeast, but I think the starter pH has to rise a certain amount to stimulate yeast budding or the lazy beasts with just stare at you saving their energy. 

Something you said when feeding was that the fed starter already "smelled sour."  Interesting.  That tells me that perhaps not enough flour was used in the feeding.  My freshly fed starter smells more like wet flour.  ???  After a production cycle or two, the aromas are back and build as the gasses build.  

When you start the next starter and the yeast have shown themselves, increase the flour or thicken the starting culture and then spoon out a bit right away to sniff at (so you're not smelling old bits inside the jar.)   The fed starter should not smell sour if enough flour was fed.  

Another Q... what is the normal temperature of your kitchen or pantry where you intend to keep the starter?  How often do you sort of plan to bake with it?   

Kelownagurl's picture
Kelownagurl

1.  Yes I continued to keep it warm in the oven with the light on.  The temp is a steady 26-27C (79-80F).

 

2.  It does smell less sour right after feeding - I may not have mentioned that.  FWIW, I made some pancakes with the castoffs one day and they were gross (to my taste).  They tasted like overly sour starter. :)

3. I will take your feeding and "smelling" suggestions into consideration with my new batch - thanks.

4. My normal room temp in my kitchen is about 21-22C.  If I'm letting bread rise or starter "work" - I use the oven which is 26-27C. 

 

5. Ideally I'd like to bake once a week but it will depend on how much work is involved.  Every two weeks may be more reasonable - it depends on the time of year and how busy I am with school.

 

 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

is that as the yeast made its debut, there wasn't enough food to keep the yeast going and they gradually decreased in number.  What you have is very concentrated bacterial culture and it's sour.  In order to raise the yeast population, the bacteria has to be reduced as the yeast is being encouraged.  It can be done.  But it is usually easier to start a new culture.  

There is a major shift in the developing culture when yeast appear. The feeding for developing a culture is different from maintaining a culture.   At first, bacteria are hashing it out among themselves for several days until the ones take over that lower pH to the ideal level for yeast.  Then something triggers the yeast to activate and start multiplying until their activity indicates readily available food is declining.  Their activity will decline if their food source declines.  And it did and they did.   The bacteria just kept on plugging away, and that is their purpose.  They protect the dormant yeast from invaders.

When is the food gone?  Yeast causes fermentation.  When the results of fermentation appear, the yeast has been feeding and not just bacteria.  There is a constant up and down play of bacteria and yeast populations as they help each other and we go about feeding them.  Flours will vary but rye flour ferments quicker than wheat.  With the increase in yeast, there has to be an increase in food, and this is also dependant on the temperature and the amount of water.

Yeast eat faster with warmer temps.  Keep them warm the first week but feed them soon after their activity peaks and begins to decline.    Bacteria can also raise dough but we want a good amount of yeast in there too.  We have no way of knowing which bacteria have taken over your culture but the bacteria have adapted to the feeding pattern and now have the advantage.  For whatever reason, that particular bacteria or group of bacteria is not encouraging the yeast desired.  The search is for a symbiotic relationship between bacteria and yeast.  

With your kitchen temps, a sourdough starter can sit out after it has been established.  If you watch and let the starter peak before feeding it, you will notice a gradual speeding up of the starter with each feeding.  It will rise sooner and want to be fed sooner.  It can be fed with different amounts depending on the temperature and amount of water when you want to feed it again. You will want to find the feeding pattern that suits you and fits your schedule so you can feed it when you are home.  Naturally you will want to set limits so that you are not developing a too fast (feeding every 4 hrs) or too slow a starter.  

You may also find that at night, the starter goes thru less flour or is slower than during the day.  Seasons will also affect it.  Be flexible.  If you decide to feed a 24 hr schedule, put it on a 12 hrs feeding schedule at first (rises and peaks around 8 hrs and stands 4 hrs until being fed) then after a week, when the schedule is established and steady (starter is predictable) switch to giving more flour every 24 hours.   If you don't refrigerate the starter, feed so that it peaks during the time when you plan on mixing up your sponge or bread dough.   That way the starter is waiting for you when you want to use it.   Depending on how much you bake, you can keep a tiny or a larger starter.  

Do check with refrigerating a starter in the starter maintenance information.  You want that starter rising a wee bit when you cool it down.

You will probably end up chilling a mother starter, removing part of it to feed and strengthen before using it.  

Good luck with the new starter.

Mini

doughooker's picture
doughooker

I can say that based on her photos, in my opinion her starter doesn't look strong enough yet to successfully leaven a bread.

I'm sure the O.P. is thoroughly confused by now with all this conflicting advice. She's four weeks into this starter and you're telling her to wait even longer, until what, she posts a picture where it looks bubbly enough to you? I'm sorry, but it doesn't take a month, six weeks, or two months to get a bakeable sourdough starter going. I've baked many loaves with less bubbly starter and they rise just fine.

doughooker's picture
doughooker

What is the telltale sign that a starter has exhausted its food supply? It is a very simple signal that anyone can detect.

Kelownagurl's picture
Kelownagurl

Is that when you smell it's sour?

Hey, I'm willing to try baking a loaf of bread this weekend just for the heck of it. If it's awful, I'll feed it to the dog. :)

 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

didn't go anywhere, I don't expect much from a bread but...  big BUT....  you can always spread out the slack dough, mist with water and sprinkle on 2% yeast (of total flour weight) and raise it fast.  

To try a small loaf try roughly a 1,2,3 dough.  One weight part starter to two parts water and three parts flour with 2% salt with 2% yeast o standby.

Hold back a few tablespoons of water until needed.    Goes something like this...  100g starter: 200g water: 300g flour  with 7g salt (or go with a 5g or 1 tsp salt)   (Standby: 7g is roughly 2 tsp yeast)  

Mix it up to a shaggy mass and let sit in a covered container for an hour.  Then knead in your hands until smooth.  Put back into the bowl, cover and let it rise about 1/3.  Flip it out and do a 4 corner fold pulling out one side, stretch and fold over the top trying not to trap air pockets.  Do the opposite side next.  If those were the east and west sides, now do north and south.  Flip back over and tuck under and corners sticking out to shape a nice round ball.  Cover and let rise again.  As the dough rises, correct any sideways rising with a flip upside down and a round of folds about 30 min to an hour.  

Check with one recipe HERE.  And the main post HERE   and if you run a site search all kinds of fun threads.

Now if your dough is not rising after say 6 hrs, add instant yeast knead it in and then treat the dough like a regular dough. with an almost doubling bulk rise within an hour or so (heat the oven) and reshape for a final rise.  Bake in a hot oven.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

or a lopsided one?    And what is the hydration of that starter?   40% or 200%?  *< :)      "smiley in stocking cap"

doughooker's picture
doughooker

 or a lopsided one?    And what is the hydration of that starter?   40% or 200%?

Take your pick.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

:)

doughooker's picture
doughooker

No, it hasn't.

If it will make it easier for you, let's say an established starter at 100% hydration.

Kelownagurl's picture
Kelownagurl

I just got home from work and checked my starters (yes, I have 3 going right now :).  The old original one has done nothing at all for a week and has started smelling bad. Tonight it smells absolutely disgusting and has no bubbles at all so I tossed it.  I'm tired of it anyway.

I also have the test starter I made following Cranbo's suggestion, using AP flour. It seems to bubble a little between feeds. I have fed it twice but haven't discarded anything.  It actually smells kind of good - a little floury and possibly a little yeasty, and a just a little bit sour.  This one has potential I think.  I'm going to keep it because it smells good, even if it's not doing a lot.

Cranbo's test batch, Day 2 1/2, added AP flour/water twice now.

 

Then a few days ago, I started a new batch using 2 T rye and 2T orange juice (I have no pineapple in the house).  I added 2T more (OJ/flour) yesterday morning and it just sat there.  I added 2T more this morning and when I got home, I was surprised to see that it is really bubbly all through.  I hadn't expected it to do much until maybe tomorrow so I neglected to clean the jar well and draw a line to mark the level.  Dumb move.

I think it even looks like it might have risen and then dropped because of the way the inside of the jar looks, although I may not have cleaned the sides of the jar as carefully as I normally do so it's hard to say. I'm not sure if I should feed it again tonight, or wait until tomorrow morning.  The instructions say to feed it every 24 hours for 4 days. Today is only the third day so i should probably wait another day.

 I'm afraid of underfeeding if it's already risen and dropped within 12 hours today (maybe I shouldn't wait until tomorrow morning) and I'm also afraid of overfeeding and diluting the little guys that might be growing in there...

 

New stuff, Day 3, now has 6T OJ and 6T rye flour

 

Kelownagurl's picture
Kelownagurl

checked both justbbefore bed and the NEW (not Cranbo as I previously wrote) test has fine white mold in it! I should have put holes in the Baggie for better ventilation. I salvaged half of it, fed it, and put it in a clean jar. Dang 

Kelownagurl's picture
Kelownagurl

checked both justbbefore bed and the Cranbo test has fine white mold in it! I should have put holes in the Baggie for better ventilation. I salvaged half of it, fed it, and put it in a clean jar. Dang 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

If on the side, not to worry.  You did good.  Also feed the Rye and OJ, that one is looking very good!

So now: Stir the Rye & OJ,  Remove about 10g and feed (1:5:5 if placing it back into the oven) use a clean jar, cover, mark the level and back into the warm oven.  

  • With the remaining goop, discard about half of it (into a small container, chill, and save as a back up)
  • set the jar on a scales (record total weight of goop & jar -- subtract the weight of jar later)
  • (set scales to 0) double the remaining volume with stood water (record)
  • stir well (set the scales to 0)  and add enough flour to thicken it up (record weight of flour.)  
  • Clean down the sides of the jar, mark the level and leave it on the counter top covered for the night and away from drafts.  

If not rising at all after 12 hrs,  pop it into the oven warmth; if rising, let it rise until it peaks.  Record for reference purposes.  

When either or both starters peak (and I hope one or both peak well) you may be able to use the starter in a bread recipe!  If you need time to gather your thoughts when it peaks, stand starter in the refrigerator to cool it down and use within 12 hrs.  Remember to save 20g in the jar to feed.  

(if you miss this instruction, do it for the daytime feeding in the morning checking on them in the evening.)  

Kelownagurl's picture
Kelownagurl

Mold was on the side and it was actually on the OJ/rye one, not the Cranbo AP flour one. 

 

OK I've done as you have directed.  Now we wait.  :)

Kelownagurl's picture
Kelownagurl

1:5:5 - has not risen, large bubbles due more to the thickness of the paste because it was too thick to settle in the jar.

 

This is the rest of the starter that I fed as directed (less the bit I put in the fridge).  I didn't feed it as much flour as the other one, it was closer to 40:40:30.  It has risen 1/2cm and has a lot of tiny bubbles.

I fed both with rye flour.

ETA:  They both smell sourish.  I'm just not sure if I should feed, or if I should discard some and then feed?  Water/OJ mix or plain water?  Rye or AP flour? What ratios? 

:) :)

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

40:40:30  on into the oven with the 1:5:5 starter and let it warm up a wee bit.  Keep watching them.  How many hours have pasted between feeding and photos? 

I have to go to bed now (10 pm here) but do keep an eye on them, I don't think they (the Rye & OJ cultures) are ready to feed yet, wait and see.  If they haven't risen anymore (and haven't returned to original marked levels) by the end of the day.  Don't feed but Remove them from the warm oven and let them sit out in the cooler kitchen overnight.  

Kelownagurl's picture
Kelownagurl

That was about 16 hours and I actually had them both in the oven, about 25C, overnight.  I will keep an eye on them all day and then leave them on the counter overnight tonight unless something happens.

doughooker's picture
doughooker

This thread has become a disgrace. It is a perfect example of how sourdough starter can be ruined through bad advice.

It isn't this difficult to make a viable starter. Kelownagurl should be happily baking bread with her new starter by now. It should never have turned into this much of an ordeal, yet people are still posting what amount to shots in the dark rather than sound advice based on experience. Try this, try that. Try feeding it a 1:2:3 ratio and if that doesn't work try a 4:5:6 ratio or maybe a 7:8:9 ratio. Try using a different-wattage light bulb in your oven to change the temperature. Try adding some kumquat juice. Whip some air into it. Even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

I feel sorry for Kelownagurl, that this has turned into such an ordeal and struggle for her. The painful irony is that she probably had a bakeable starter several days ago, but was advised not to bake with it because it didn't seem "bubbly enough". Now she's trying to rescue a moldy mess.

Kelownagurl's picture
Kelownagurl

I'm sorry you feel it is such a disgrace but don't feel sorry for me. I am having fun and enjoying the science of testing the various theories.  :)

cranbo's picture
cranbo

Kelownagirl, feel free to take mixinator's earlier advice and try baking a small loaf with your starter to see if it works. Based on the photos and information you shared, I personally don't think it's ready, but it's just my opinion. Try it and find out for yourself. You appear to already have the right attitude about it: a curiosity to experiment and see what happens, so you may be rewarded by that experiment.  

I do agree with mixinator that generally creating your first starter is somewhat easier for many people. Please understand that this isn't a reflection on you at all, and in no way am I saying it's you're fault. In fact there's lots of ways to do the same thing (like creating a starter), and there are lots of things that can go wrong that may be out of your control, but can be fixed: flour that's "bad", water that's mediocre, poor sanitation & or temperatures that are not conducive (too hot or too cold). 

As long as you keep your good attitude, it will happen. 

A few questions:

  1. Are you still using tap water? Have you tried bottled water? 
  2. Is it possible for you to get a different bag of rye and/or other all-purpose flour to use for feeding? 
  3. Do you do a lot of other baking in your kitchen with commercial yeast? If so, I would suspect you are more likely to have various baking-related bacteria and yeast colonizing your kitchen, which in theory might help to create a more conducive environment for your starter.  

 

 

Kelownagurl's picture
Kelownagurl

Thanks, I have no doubt it may have been my fault in the beginning but hopefully now I have corrected those mistakes and the things I've learned on this forum are helping.  It's a bit of a challenge having such conflicting information and I haven't had the time to try everything suggested, but I have tried to focus in on Mini's recommendations since people here have suggested she's the starter queen and because she has actually lived nearby me and knows the environment. If I get the time, I will likely try baking a loaf as mixinator suggested but it's the last week of school (I'm a teacher) and Christmas season, so I am a bit overwhelmed at the moment and I'm not sure I have the time to give a loaf of bread my full attention in order to increase my likelihood of success.

 

To answer your questions:

1. I'm still using dechlorinated tap water. I guess it's time to buy some bottled water and rule that out.

2. I bought a new bag of organic rye flour about 10 days ago and have been using that.

3. I did bake regular bread last weekend, but hadn't done any yeast baking in the month or so before that so I don't think anything has been contaminated with too much storebought yeast in the air, but I guess you never know.

FWIW, I think my original batch was doing well but was possibly damaged beyond repair when my son shut the oven door and the temp went up to mid 90's overnight.  Anyway, I have high hopes for my new batch that is just less than a week old and seems to be going somewhere.

doughooker's picture
doughooker

Glad you're having fun.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

.

doughooker's picture
doughooker

I think my original batch was doing well but was possibly damaged beyond repair when my son shut the oven door and the temp went up to mid 90's overnight.

Not beyond repair. It's a little on the high side but not hot enough to kill the yeast. I use a proofing temperature of 86 F. Mid 90s isn't that hot.

There is nothing wrong with your dechlorinated tap water or your flour, and your kitchen isn't contaminated with baker's yeast. Your starter was a classic case of too many cooks spoiling the soup.

I wouldn't become a slave to expansion volume. I make sourdough all the time and my starter is bubbly and frothy when I bake but I pay no attention to whether it has "expanded enough" or the amount and size of the bubbles, and my loaves turn out just great. Bubbles and froth indicate that the yeast is active and producing carbon dioxide.

Use a clean vessel and keep it covered to keep out mold spores. Those concern me more than baker's yeast contamination.

Happy holidays!

Kelownagurl's picture
Kelownagurl

Things are looking up with the 1:5:5 jar, Mini.  This morning it had risen at least 1cm so I fed it 1T rye flour and 1T of water/OJ mix. It started rising a bit within the hour and now, about 12 hours later it looks like this. 

 

That's just under 2cm rise.

cranbo's picture
cranbo

OK, that's looking great! Keep following that path, you're on the right track :)

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

Good stuff. I think you can even try a bake with it.

Looks good.

I've been following your thread and even when you were having trouble there was still activity there.

Bubbles were always present but now it's taken off the ground. Good work!

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

I would try it too!   Take out 10g to feed and use the rest for a 1,2,3 sourdough.  

I would try (in the oven) a feed of 1:4:4   and see if it makes it to the next 12 hr feeding.  If you decide instead to raise it at room temp (22°C)  Feed it 1:2:2.  If you see it still rising with a 1:4:4 feeding, it's still domed and you need to take off to work, or go to bed.  Stand it on the counter top cooling it down (no feeding)  until the next feeding, roughly 8 to 12 hrs. later.

Important is to make sure it not only peaks, but also has a sour taste before feeding it.   Making sure it is sour before feeding should insure that any invading bacteria are quickly put to rest before the starter is fed.  That often occurs after the peak as the starter is deflating after the first peak (there are often two peaks.)   I will often use the starter for bread, wait a while depending on the temperatures and sourness before feeding the remaining starter; that is; if I want to feed any remaining starter.  

Kelownagurl's picture
Kelownagurl

Super!  I gave it another 1T flour and 1T water/OJ mix last night before I went to bed and now 8 hours later it's up 2cm again. I have to go to work right now so I will try taking 10gr out and try 1:4:4.

What's 1,2,3 sourdough?  ETA:  Never mind, I found the recipe on the site.  I am excited!!

 

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

1 Part Starter

2 Parts Water

3 Parts Flour

+ 2% of flour for salt

 

E.G.

 

150g Active Starter

300g Water

450g Flour

+ 9g Salt

 

Method:

  • Prepare starter night before.

Next morning:

  • Prepare dough with Water (-20g to be used later) mixing in Starter till evenly distributed then adding the Flour.
  • Let rest for 40min.
  • Add salt on top of dough then wet with 20g of water you kept behind. Squeeze and fold dough till fully incorporated.
  • Let rest for 20min.
  • Then begins bulk fermentation for 6 - 8 (or so) hours giving the dough a stretch and fold every hour.
  • Then de-gas, shape and final proof in banneton till ready.
  • Carefully tip out of banneton, score and bake in pre-heated oven.

 

that's basically the gist of it. You can adjust bulk fermentation time and stretch and folds for longer or shorter depending on what you're after. You can also increase final proofing by finishing off in the fridge.

 

 

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

Look into pre-ferments. It's a good way to build levain for your baking.

Watch videos on youtube for ideas and recipes. See how it's being done and methods etc.

You might wish to start on a lower hydration bread. 1:2:3 method will gibe you a 71% hydration dough if your starter is 100% hydration.

Look for a nice simple recipe with a dough about 65% hydration. Then work at that level of hydration for a while practicing technique and getting used to timings etc then work your way up.

Kelownagurl's picture
Kelownagurl

I have read sooo many different recipes, it gets confusing.  I would like to bake a simple white sourdough loaf but I'm not sure which recipe would be best to start with.  Does anyone have any suggestions or can point me to a reliable recipe that would be a good starting point for a beginner?

(Fwiw, I'm a beginner with sour dough but not a beginning cook and I've been baking regular bread successfully for years.)

David Esq.'s picture
David Esq.

Overnight Country Blonde from Ken Forkish's Flour Water Salt Yeast, or Tartine Basic Country Loaf from Chad Robertson's Tartine Bread book.

You can no doubt find write-ups of both all over the internet. However, I would encourage you to check the books out from the library or buy them, because  know both formula work quite well, with Forkish's being a lot less wordy.

Tartine basically has you make 2x the starter you need and Flour Water Salt Yeast has you make over 4x the starter you need to make their breads.  Adjust the starter formula accordingly, or be prepared to have quite a bit of extra starter. :)

 

doughooker's picture
doughooker

I would try (in the oven) a feed of 1:4:4   and see if it makes it to the next 12 hr feeding.  If you decide instead to raise it at room temp (22°C)  Feed it 1:2:2.  If you see it still rising with a 1:4:4 feeding, it's still domed and you need to take off to work, or go to bed.  Stand it on the counter top cooling it down (no feeding)  until the next feeding, roughly 8 to 12 hrs. later.

How about quit messing around with what is probably a viable starter now?

At some point it becomes time to stop trying this and trying that and just bake with it.

Making sure it is sour before feeding should insure that any invading bacteria are quickly put to rest before the starter is fed.

You've studied these invading bacteria under your microscope, have you?

DavidEF's picture
DavidEF

Mixinator, is there any particular reason why you're being so antagonistic in this thread? I understand you disagree with a lot of what's going on here, but why such angst? What does a microscope have to do with anything Mini said? Science has already established that the bacteria we don't want in the starter are abated by keeping a low pH in the culture. Can we please just keep this thread about the OP, and not about your insistence on rushing something through?

For my $0.02 worth, I'd NEVER try baking a loaf of bread in order to test an uncertain starter! Although maybe unlikely, it may be dangerous to eat. And if you're not gonna eat it, it's a huge waste of ingredients, time, and energy (electricity or gas for the oven). One may argue that continuing to feed the starter also wastes ingredients and time, but I'd say not as much, and you still don't need to waste cooking power.

Edit: By the way, I guess you missed the part where Mini said to take some out for feeding and use the rest in a 1:2:3 sourdough loaf. So, really, you're beating the air here!

baliw2's picture
baliw2

from King Arthur and start baking

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

Kelownagurl has a good starter going. With some TLC it'll be perfect. It's still young and will go from strength to strength the longer it's fed and used.

doughooker's picture
doughooker

I explained what you're asking about in a previous post.

Starter is a mixture of water (or fruit juice) and flour. The notion that it might be dangerous to eat after being baked into a loaf is quite a stretch, to put it politely. I've done it myself and have lived to tell about it. At worst the loaf won't rise and will lack flavor.

Kelownagurl's picture
Kelownagurl

Thanks!! I just saw it now.  I wish I didn't have to go to work right now, but I will give it a try tonight/tomorrow.

Kelownagurl's picture
Kelownagurl

My starter doubled and collapsed while I was at work today!  I am going to try some bread.  Can't wait!

cranbo's picture
cranbo

Hooray! Success!!! I'm happy that it finally worked out for you. Your patience will soon will be rewarded with a delicious sourdough loaf. Congrats and share your first loaf photo. 

I agree that basic recipes from Tartine, Hamelman's Bread, Forkish's FWSY, and Reinhart's books will get you off to a good start. There are lots of good recipes here on TFL too, but sometimes it's tough to know which one. 

If I can give you one piece of advice: watch the dough not the clock. A sourdough made with a new starter can take a really, really long time to rise (think 4-12 hours!), and you have to pay close attention to when the dough doubles. This is why paying attention to exactly how quickly your starter reaches its peak is critical. 

What this means:

  1. During bulk fermentation (i.e., the first fermentation after mixing & kneading), wait for your kneaded dough to double in size, no matter how long it takes.  It helps to store it in a clear container like this one to see when your dough has doubled: http://www.amazon.com/Camwear-Polycarbonate-Round-Storage-container/dp/B0001MRUS2
  2. After final shaping of your dough (free form or in a pan), same thing: wait for your dough to almost double (slightly less than double), again, no matter how long it takes. 

In both cases, you can speed up the time somewhat by storing your dough in a warm humid place. 

Good luck and happy baking!

Kelownagurl's picture
Kelownagurl

Thanks, I will take your advice and continue to be patient. :)

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

As a newbie sourdough baker I too had problems with my starter and wish I had used TFL months and months and months earlier. However that said, I did find a recipe here that has really worked and I too share your joy at a starter that now seems ready to go.  Good luck!! my first sd bread was pain au levain from Jeffery Hamelman's bread and wow did it work! Also made his Vermont Sour dough successfully.  so I am only a step or two ahead of you but totally hooked.  Will watch how you go, and I too  Will be baking later this week, plan to take my starter out of fridge later today.  Happy baking :)

Kelownagurl's picture
Kelownagurl

Thanks, I've reserved Hamelman's book as well as the one by Ken Forkish. If I like them, I'll buy my own copies.

The_Loafer's picture
The_Loafer

 Sour Dough bread is what got me started. In fact, I can barely say that I’m started. I have only made two batches of Sour Dough bread thus far. Both turned out okay bread but now I think it may not be truly sour dough bread. After reading this thread… well, I’ve gotten through about a third of it, but I think my starter isn’t even active. I’ll save the details for a thread I start. I don’t want to hijack this one. I only wanted to post to say thanks to Kelownagurl for starting it and to all the contributors. It’s a great read!

Kelownagurl's picture
Kelownagurl

So I'm 8 hours into the bulk fermentation stage and things are moving along.  I had to take the dough to work with me today so I could do the stretch-fold part, and it was a little too cool in my classroom so it didn't really start to take off until I got home around 3:30.  I'm taking Cranbo's suggestion to wait until it has in size before shaping the loaf and so now I'm little worried I may not get it formed, risen, and baked before I need to go to sleep.  Should be an interesting night. ;)

 

 

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

And don't forget you've been doing stretch and folds so depending when you've taken this there'll be certain amount of degassing. But we now know your starter is capable. Let's wait till the end result then next stage is to make sourdough work for you! And not the other way round. 

cranbo's picture
cranbo

Nice job! Yes the key is waiting & being patient and letting it double. From the end result loaf you show later in this thread, it shows that you did it right. 

Over time, you will figure out how you can dictate the dough's schedule, so it can work around you, and you don't have to stay up late as much and work around it :)

The trick to this, IMO, is to use the fridge to slow down your fermentation. 

 

 

Kelownagurl's picture
Kelownagurl

OK here it is.  I had to cook it before it was fully doubled in size because it was getting late.  And I'm not sure if maybe I overcooked it. I'm still letting it cool so I don't know what it looks like inside or tastes like yet.  It feels pretty heavy but it did rise fairly nicely considering. I just wish I'd had more time.  Also, I need a sharper knife or razor blade to score it.

Anyway, overall I'm happy with it.  Now I just need some more practice. Luckily Christmas break starts in 3 more days!

Big thanks to everyone who helped me out. :)

 

 

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

Your starter works!! "Halleujah"

Now for the all important crumb shot. But wait till it's cooled.

Now we work out a method that fits into your time schedule. I'm thinking of something along the lines of stretch and folds for the first hour, every 10 - 15min, then rest for the duration of the bulk fermentation if you don't have time to do so every hour. Then you can always shape into banneton, leave out at room temperature for 40min then refrigerate till ready to bake. And leaving to final proof till doubled although a popular notion isn't necessary. 1.5x is enough.

Looking good!

Kelownagurl's picture
Kelownagurl

I couldn't wait.  It had been out of the oven for about 15-20 minutes or so.  I had to try it.  I have no idea what "real" sourdough tastes like but this is delicious!!!  I love the sour flavour and the chewy-ness.  Best news is, it will only get better as I improve my skills.

Here's a pic. I know you guys talk about the 'crumb' but I have no clue what you are looking for. :)

By the way, I used about 10% rye flour and 90% AP flour.

So happy!!

 

 

 

DavidEF's picture
DavidEF

Kelownagurl, the 'crumb' is the inside of the loaf. There are exactly two parts to a loaf - Crust and Crumb. Yours looks perfect from here. Congratulations! I'm still trying to figure out a sharper knife for scoring as well. If you figure it out before I do, let me know!

cranbo's picture
cranbo

I must say, all kidding aside, that this is one of the most (if not the most) beautiful first loaves from a sourdough starter that I have ever seen! Seriously, totally not kidding. Amazing job!!

You got great rise and an amazing looking crumb! The bubble distribution in your crumb was even so it didn't overferment. You had big bubbles which means you didn't degas the bread overly, so you have a nice touch in shaping. You had nice oven spring which means you didn't overferment. The crust had very nice browning which shows that the dough fermented properly. 

In short, for a first loaf it looks like you did everything right :) :) Super-huge congrats for your patience. Look forward to seeing your next loaves. 

Kelownagurl's picture
Kelownagurl

Thanks, you are too kind and now I'm blushing.  To be honest, when I got closer to the centre of the bread, I felt it was a bit heavy and the bubbles were smaller (could be partially due to the fact that I cut it when it was still hot).  I think it may have needed a touch more rising time or perhaps some other minor change (I really was unsure of when to take it out.  I left it for 40 minutes at 410F as the recipe said, but I think maybe a slightly hotter oven or longer cooking time might have been in order. I find these artisan breads look awfully dark on the crust so it's harder for me to tell when it's ready. I did the tap test a few times and it was mostly hollow sounding except the very centre bottom.

I am going to have lots of fun testing out various loaves over the next few weeks and I have a list of baking items I plan to buy myself for Christmas (razor blade, bannetons, a scraper etc).

Anyway, this bread tasted great (except I put too much salt in - misread the instructions lol) and ultimately, that's what counts to me.

 

 

cranbo's picture
cranbo

If you're getting baking toys, consider getting an instant read thermometer (like a Thermapen). You can tell a sourdough loaf is done when it hits an internal temp of 210F. Time will depend on oven temp and loaf size.

Yes, it's really important to let most large sourdough loaves to cool for at least 1 hour after baking before you cut in. 

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

Nice air pockets. Does it have a chewy texture?

Everyone will be happy with this!

Success!

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

A wonderful job!   And a nice proportion of just enough rye for a first loaf!   Mmmmmm!   *<:)

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

To 500g AP flour.

at 71% hydration loaf.

So basically 25g of rye flour which makes it 5%

 

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

think this looks like a great loaf. Such a good crumb. Very nice!

Kelownagurl's picture
Kelownagurl

Thanks everyone!

So what do you look for in the crumb?  What should the holes look like - size? shape? crust? anything else?

cranbo's picture
cranbo

As I said in my earlier post (see above), I think you did everything right. Crust and crumb look really great! Rise looks great. 

Some people like a tighter looking crumb (think more like regular sandwich bread, very even, few holes). Some people like very open crumb (think ciabatta). I think yours is pretty well balanced. I wouldn't change a thing in that regard.

As you bake more, one thing you'll notice about a well-fermented crumb is that it has a semi-transparent, pearlescent (shiny transparent white), slightly gelatinized quality to it. I find all of that very appealing in this kind of loaf. This translates often into an appealingly soft, spongy texture and slightly sweet flavor that I enjoy. I can't see it directly in the crumb from your photo, but from the looks of it, I think you probably achieved that quality. 

If you wanted to, you could work on your slashing more. Also, if desired, wiping off excess flour from the top crust before it goes in the oven.  Personally I'm not a huge fan of a lot of baked-on raw flour on the crust, but that's just personal preference!

Again, you did a great job Kelownagurl. Now your tweaks will really have more to do with personal preference.  

 

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

Look for what you like! :)

Some people like open crumb and others like it more dense. 

Higher hydration and white flour lends itself to a more open crumb. Lower hydration and wholegrains lends itself to a denser crumb. 

There's no right or wrong way. However if you do a high hydration and white flour but your bread comes out dense it will signify a problem. 

I think your bread and others with that classic open crumb associated with sourdough shows off a good healthy starter. 

As for salt, I see from above you misread the recipe, a golden rule is 1.5% - 2% is good. 

cranbo's picture
cranbo

And can you share a photo of what your starter looks like now? I think those who struggle with starters might benefit from seeing the end result of your success.