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Italian Bread
This is based on the recipe from Bernard Clayton's New Complete Book of Breads. I used a preferment: he does not. I'm not sure if it made a difference or not, but the way I made it turned out quite good. Italian Bread
Preferment: Dough: To start the preferment, mix together the flour, water, and yeast in a small bowl and cover with plastic wrap. Leave out at room temperature for at least 4 hours and as long as 16 hours. To make the dough, mix together the preferment, water, olive oil, yeast, salt, malt powder, and dry milk in a bowl with 2 more cups of flour. Mix thoroughly. Mix or knead in the rest of the flour a half a cup as a time until you have a slack dough but one that is no longer sticky. Total mixing time should be in the ballpark of 10 to 15 minutes. Place the dough in a well-greased bowl and cover with plastic wrap. Allow to rise at room temperature until at least 2 times in size, approximately 2 hours. Punch the dough down and let it rise again for half an hour. Remove the dough from the bowl and divide it in half. Shape the dough into a ball or log, cover with a damp towel, and allow it to relax for another 20 minutes. Shape the dough into its final shape. Cover again and allow to rise for another hour until doubled in bulk. Meanwhile, preheat the oven and baking stone, if you are using one, to 425 degrees. Right before placing the loaves in the oven brush or spray them lightly with water. Place them into the oven and bake for 20 minutes before rotating them. Bake them another 20 to 30 minutes or until the internal temperature of the loaf reads 200 degrees. Remove from the oven and allow to cool for at least a half an hour before serving.
Related Recipe: Rustic Bread
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Fantastic! thank you for the
Fantastic! thank you for the baking tips
bravo!
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Starting NOW
This Bread IS Motivation!
I hope that my family and I will be enjoying it tomorrow night.
Thanks for the detailed instructions and beautifully arranged tablesetting.
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Re: Starting Now
Yes tonight we did enjoy the bread.
I was much happier with the crusts. They were dark and crusty. Just not enough rise in final product. I will keep trying-any thoughts welcome.
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proofing!!! Bigger Rise ???
Please!!! make sure the oven is 50 degrees hotter then you need it,, FORE THE MOMENT!!! Good preheat spray bread w. plant sprayer Put bread in oven,, count to 25 turn oven down to 425 this gives the bread a so called kick in the a--- somewhat shocks the bread into exploding from the heat.. dont forget!!! buy a small razor knife & slash the bread 1/4 in deep 3 or 4 times or it will not react!!! to the oven temp & will stay small & hard & dense & heavy G B GOOD LUCK HOTBRED
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RE: Proofing Bigger Rise
Yes thanks very much for the advice. I am planning on getting a mister and a new oven thermometer. My old one says I'm off by 25 degrees but I don't trust it. Also the razor too.
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This post inspired me to try
This post inspired me to try baking.
Shakthi
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Rock on. I hope it turned
Rock on. I hope it turned out well (and, if it didn't, that you'll try again).
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Too slack of dough(sticky) cause lack of rise?
Floydm- This bread had the absolute best crust and flavor. However, I am new to bread baking and I should have trusted my instincts alittle better and added more flour then the 5 cups in recipe- because it was a very slack dough..apparently too wet and sticky. I took HOTBREDS advice and had a really hot oven turned the oven 50 degrees higher and then waited 25 sec and turned the oven down and also slashed the top. My question is if your dough is too wet and sticky and needs more flour could that totally explain why the dough never took shape and spread out like a blob and didn't rise well?
Thanks,
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It should still rise,
It should still rise, assuming it has enough gluten development to hang together. But it might spread out more than you'd like.
Yes, there is a point where it ceases to be a viable dough and just becomes a batter, but that point is much harder to reach than one typically thinks. Folding the dough while it is rising helps it tighten up. Also, keeping it shaped while it rises by using a couche or some tea towels will help it rise up instead of out. And, sure, at least until you get a handle on things, feel free to add a couple of tablespoons of extra flour.
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preferment v sponge
is there a difference? i have always know that as a sponge. preferment sounds very ... british?
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Preferment, sponge, poolish,
Preferment, sponge, poolish, barm, bigas... we're all talking about the same general thing: some portion of the dough that has fermented longer than the rest.
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Floydm can i just half all
Floydm can i just half all the ingredients to make one loaf
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That's one of bread's wonderful qualities
To size any bread forumla up or down, you just double, triple, halve, or whatever all the ingredients. Works like magic!
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water temp
my bread didnot rise as much as I thought after following these instructions until I placed in a low temp (100 deg) oven. Was I supposed to use warm water with the active dry yeast? When recipes call for water, is it implied to use warm water?
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Active dry yeast
Hi,
If you used "Active dry yeast" you do need to proof it in warm water. Stir the yeast into 110-115 degree water and let set for 5-10 minutes or until frothy, then add it to the dry ingredients.
If you use "Instant yeast" or "Breadmachine yeast" you can add it directly to the dry ingredients.
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Second loaf came out beautifully !
Ok, thanks to the reminder about the yeast, I tried again and got a great loaf.
Fantastic bread (and made great toast). Next question: since I live alone I don't go through as much bread as many others. Can the dough be frozen at any stage for a quick bake later? How about making freezing the second loaf? Anyone tried to freeze this bread?
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Freezing 2nd loaf
I routinely bake more than one loaf at a time and freeze those that won't be eaten right away. The mess for one loaf or four is about the same and so is the energy usage with the oven. For short-term storage in the freezer (a couple of weeks), a single bag works just fine. For longer storage, upwards of a couple of months, you'll probably be better off double-bagging the bread. In either situation, the key is to remove as much of the air from the bag as as you can while closing it, as this helps slow the loss of moisture from the bread. I tend to shy away from zip-loc style bags. The plastic is stiffer, which makes it harder to expel the extra air, and the shape usually won't accomodate a loaf of bread. When I find them in the store, I buy 1-gallon size bags with twist-tie closures. Some of the packages even recommend them for freezing bread, because the bag conforms to the shape of the loaf. If there is a bakery outlet or supply store in your area, you may be able to purchase new bags that the commercial bakers use. They work pretty well for short-tem freezer use, too.
PMcCool
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The Rustic bread recipe that
The Rustic bread recipe that you posted worked great for me. I froze one loaf so I can enjoy it later. I am going to try the Italian Bread this weekend.
george.....Still Trying to find a good loaf of bread in South Florida!
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Tweaking the recipe.
I love Clayton's book, along with Feild's Italian Breads,
I recommend both.
To tweak this recipe, I added 1/2 cup of rye flour to the preferment (poolish).
It adds a bit more rustic flavor and texture to the bread, very subltle, but nice.
Be sure to leave the loaf quite slack, just bordering on too sticky to work.
Enjoy!
Bread, wine, beer, the best things all need yeast
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Beautiful Bread
I live in a small Alaskan town and the only way to get good, fresh bread is to bake it yourself. I tried this recipe last night and it turned out great. I love this site! We don't have much to do in the winter around here so bread baking has become our new craft. Thanks for the recipe, the bread was lovely!
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Floyd's Italian
I made this bread yesterday. It didn't rise as high as I would have liked but the crumb and taste are great! Floyd's "snail" recipe is rising as I type this. Pictures of that later...
Here's the Italian:
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Substitute for Powdered Milk?
I'm going to try to convert this recipe to a whole wheat, no-knead recipe. Are you adding the powdered milk to make up for using processed flour? If I want to eliminate the powdered milk can I substitute some whole milk for the water? If so, how much? I'm chomping at the bit to try this...
Cliff. Johnston
"May the best you've ever seen,
Be the worst you'll ever see;"
from A Scots Toast by Allan Ramsay
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Ditto to Cliff's question
I don't have any powered milk today. What can I substitute?
Steph
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No powdered dry milk?
I have always subbed skim milk (that's all I drink) in place of the dry. So I would use 1/2 cup of milk and 1 1/2 cups of water. I wouldn't think the fat content of whole milk would make much difference. I find no discernable difference, it is such a small amount.
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A more precise substitution
A more precise substitution for the 1/2 cup powdered dry milk and 1-1/2 cups water would be 1-1/2 cups milk and 1/2 cup water. I imagine either way will give you good bread, but there are some areas where the milk/water difference would make quite a difference.
To get 1 cup of milk, place 1/3 cup of powdered milk in a 1 cup measure and fill the cup with water. These figures are for instant powdered milk, they may be different for the non-instant kind.
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thanks!
Thank you for the idea and the recipe, Floydm. I baked this bread today and got 2 gigantic loaves out of the oven. Delicious, excellent crumb and crust. We had it with strawbery jam which I prepared using your recipe. Delicious.
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Yum!
I made this recipe a few weeks ago. It turned out great! It was great with some Nutella spread on it. Excellent flavor and texture.
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Why hasn't anyone...
Mentioned that scrumptuous looking Lasagna or baked item that's BEHIND the bread?? I think we need THAT recipe as well.
Oh, and thanks for making the distinction between Italian and French breads.
I'm also a fan of Clayton's. He's from my home state, so I'm rather biased, though.
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Italian Bread
Floyd, you are my new best friend...... I made this recipe to go with homemade lasagna. I did not have the time to preferment. I thought it smelled rather off prior to final rise...and it seemed too flabby..... BOY WAS I WRONG.....
It was fab-u-lous..... Very moist, heavy (not in a bad way) delicious, would be terrific with dipping herbs and olive oil..... I hid one loaf and ate it all by myself. Oink, oink.....
TRY IT.
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Italian Bread
Hi I'm new to this site. I just made this bread and my family loved it. I did have some problems with it however. I did everthing according to the directions and the dough was very sticky. I added another cup of flour and it was still very sticky. I decided that if I added much more flour I'd chage the nature of the recipe too much so I oiled my hands and shaped the loaves.
Like I said it was wonderful and everyone loved it. But what might I have done wrong?
Thanks!
Sharon
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Using Skim Milk instead of dry
You must scald milk before using if you are using skim or whole milk instead of dry milk - otherwise bread may not rise.
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how to knead a really slack dough
I too had troubles with handling this dough. Then I found a book, DOUGH by Richard Bertinet. The photos are fantastic but I am not sure how the recipes are. The best part is the DVD of Richard making up the dough in a home kitchen w/ no special equipment. The focus on on the kneading the dough using a French technique of Folding in air. Then how to shape the loaf. This DVD has revolutionized the textures of my bread. it is what is lacking in all of the 1/2 doz bread books I have bought.
I am on my 4th weekend of backing this bread.
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Yeast amounts
Floyd
Thats instant yeast not active dry correct? Same with the Kaiser rolls too?
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Yeasties
Yes, I typically use instant yeast. Active dry will work fine too though, if you activate it in warm water first.
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The "cups" problem
It must be that Bernard Clayton was born before the development of scales to weigh ingredients. Clayton has a lot of good recipes but you have to pick a weight for a cup of flour and substitute the weight for the volume measurement. i use 5 oz but there has been much debate on this site about the exact weight to substitute.
The point is that you used a cup that did not put enough flour into the mixture. My volume cups are usually 20-25% too light compared to my standard of 5 oz. That's probably why your dough was slack. Makes great taste and crust but can't hold its shape.
Paul Kobulnicky
Baking in Ohio
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Too sticky
My dough must have been too wet as it spread too
much and didnt rise much.Tastes great.
However I'll get it right next time.Love this site
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A great loaf plus This
A great loaf plus
This turned out perfect for me, a little troble getting it off the peal but I made it work.
First time I made 2 loafs and gave one away. Second time I made one and saved the dough for pizza. The pizza was just great. This may become my standard recipe for pizza dough or calzones. Thanks Jim
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Italian bread dough for pizza?
Hi, would Floyd's Italian bread dough be OK for pizza dough? or is a less enriched dough better? Thanks!
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Re:: Italian bread dough for pizza? - sure
Pizza doughs are all over the map in terms of high-gluten vs. low-gluten flour, olive oil vs. no olive oil, milk product vs. no milk product, etc. In my experience they all work; they just produce somewhat different crusts.
Floyd's Italian bread recipe looks very similar to my base pizza dough recipe except that I use yoghurt or buttermilk rather than dried milk. You will want to cook it at a lower temperature than a straight dough - around 425-435 deg.F. The crust will be brown on the bottom and have a somewhat more breadlike structure than a New York-style straight dough.
sPh
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pizza
Tonight I made pizza with the second 1/2 of Floyd's Italian Bread dough (I used the first half for my B's Hidden Focassia)...The pizza was awesome...thanks for your help!
Beth
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Dough consistancy
When I made this bread the dough was really slack and sticky. I understand that a cup of flour is not always a cup of flour so how can I tell that I have the proper amount of flour so the dough will not be so slack? Or is it suppose to be really slack and sticky?
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Volume vs Weight
can make a big difference. Volume wise, some people scoop, some tap their measuring cups (which compacts the flour). Without a scale, your best guide will be feel. A slack dough will be soft, not holding a tight, firm shape. Not sticky, means just that. If your dough is sticky add a bit of flour, a tablespoon at a time, no more..then knead a bit and vice versa for dry dough, a TBL of water at a time. Sticky sticks to your fingers and won't let go, tacky sticks a sec. It is kind of an AHA! moment..you'll know when it happens. When it does..you are on your way to having a feel for dough. I really would suggest getting a scale, but for now you can get by. I hesitate to try and explain sensory perception and if this isn't helpful, sorry. I'll leave it to our pros to guide you. Good luck, let us know how it goes.
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malt syrup, malt powder, brown sugar, sugar
What differences will using malt syrup/malt powder/brown sugar/sugar each have on the bread? Would any of them make a significant difference?
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malt both dry and syrup are
malt both dry and syrup are interchainable
malt is directly digestable by yeast and is used as a yeast food for a faster rise and will provide a mild malt tast to the bread but since the yeast will eat it up very quickly it is mostly gone by the time you bake the bread
sucrose or table sugas is not directly digested and must be broken down into sympler compounds before the yeast can use it for food the result is more ETOH in the bread (Alcohol) and a slower rise.
since the yeast has a harder time using sucrose more is left in the dough at baking time your bread will be sweeter and will get a faster and darker crust as the left over sugar close to the surface carmalizis.
brown sugar in the same as sucrose execpt a percentage of molases have been left in during the refining process this also must be broken down before yeast can use it as food the results will be simaler to sucrose with the diferance of color and the taste that the molasses will provide
Baker Ret.
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Tried it this weekend
I finally tried it this weekend and I am really happy. I may have kneaded it a bit much, but it still came out great. Really getting the hang of shaping by hand too!
All the tips on this board really helped. Brushed it with butter when it came out of the oven. Will definitely work with this recipe more.
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