June 6, 2020 - 9:05am
Sourdough Starter Ratios, House Temperature, and other stuff
I'd consider myself an intermediate level baker. Probably baked about 300 loaves by now. I still have so much more to learn. I realized recently one major mistake I have been making... I haven't been very nice to my sourdough starter.
First, let me go over my understanding of a sourdough starter, then, I'd like to ask a few clarifying questions.
My Understanding thus far:
How to maintain a sourdough starter from a high level.
- Mix sourdough seed from previous batch with water and flour, walk away.
- A few hours later when the rising dough has peaked. Peaking migh tbe 1.5x, 2x, 3x, even 3.5x the volume depending on how strong the sourdough culture is and how wet the sourdough is.
- Start over with step 1.
In order to adjust the time to the 'peak' to better align with someone's schedule the following items can be tweaked
- Higher/lower temperature of air outside of sourdough container
- Less/more percentage of sourdough seed compared to flour/water.
My Issues/Questions:
- The Sourdough peaks way too fast, even though I have reduced the sourdough seed ratio considerably... 15g:100g:115g (seed:hard white wheat:well water) peaked in about 4 hours at 78dF. I am setting up a time lapse camera so I can nerd out on this... I tend to get busy and forget to check the starter. Is there a danger to reducing the seed ratio too much? I just started a new batch with the following ratio 7g:100g:115g.
- The sourdough only peaks at about 1.8x the original volume. We have been feeding the sourdough starter with a 1:1:1 ratio every 12 hours for most of its life (until just recently). My theory is that 12 hours was always way too long of a wait for the 1:1:1 ratio and that the sourdough has not yet been allowed to reach its full potential because of the very late feeding. Do you all concur with my theory?
- I really struggle with staying on top of the amount of daily sourdough discard. Right now my (as you can see above) my sourdough is about 225g fed twice a day. But... is there any reason I couldn't drop it to 100g or even 50g? And then, if I want to make bread, the day before I could make a bigger batch OR the day before split off a bit for a seperate levean dedicated the loaf I plan on baking?
- It seems like 90% of the articles on the internet (even on King Arthur flour) recommending a 1:1:1 ratio for sourdough feedings. In my household... this seems WAY WAY WAY too high, especially since a lot of these instructions suggest feeding every 24 hours. Am I missing something? My house is usually 72dF to 80dF depending on the season. Is a 1:1:1 ratio ever a good ratio? Are 90% of the internet instructions mostly wrong?
- In general, am I on the right track to perfecting my sourdough?
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This is my 4th attempt at maintaining a starter. We started this batch about 5 weeks ago.
This time, we ordered a dried San Francisco sourdough culture off of Amazon, in order to give us a kick start on the process (as opposed to making the sourdough culture from scratch). We have baked about 5 loaves using this culture.
If you struggle with discarding and feeding why dont you change to a rye starter that you can put in the fridge after you used it and then bring it out a week later, feed it and then bake. No discard and so much easier...
I don't usually stock Rye... what is the benefit that Rye brings to the table vs Wheat? My understanding is that I can put any starter into the fridge, wheat, rye, etc.
I am not putting the starter into the fridge yet, because I want to get the starter to consistently get to 2.5x to 3x peak growth before I think about retarding the process.
I consider myself an intermediate baker as well, and thought I could add a few comments from things I have learned along the way, much of it from this site. I think there are probably more than a few folks out there that would be happy with a four-hour peak time though ;-). A couple of questions/comments for you:
1) Are you using cold water for your feeds? Is 78F the temp in your kitchen? Is there a way to cool that down to around 70...possible keep it in the basement (if you have one) or some other cooler part of the house?
2) Also, you can maintain a very lively and robust starter with fewer feeds by keeping your starter in the fridge in between bakes. For a healthy, active starter, you can actually go weeks in between feeds and just 'refresh' a few days before baking. Feeding every 24 hours and especially twice per day, unless you are baking every 24 hours, would be a pain, expensive and simply not necessary.
3) I've also gotten sick and tired of trying to use up discard (one can bake only so many pancakes, loaves of banana bread, etc), that I've now switched to maintaining a much smaller starter, at 50 g max (at 1:1:1 ratios for feeds usually). Do some research on the 'scrapings method' for starter...you will be amazed at how small some of these folks go, successfully, with their maintenance starters.
4) There are several chats on this site about maintaining a very thick starter (1:1:3) which reportedly keeps longer and requires less maintenance than a more liquid starter. However, there are limited numbers of recipes for this method.
5) I've started doing a 1:2:2 pre-feed of my starter before baking and this seems to slow the starter down a bit and doesn't need much if any tweaking of the recipes given most of the ones I use start with 50g starter for the levain, so the difference between 1:1:1 and 1:2:2 is negligible. If I need to adjust with flour, I can do that during the initial mixing steps. This lets me develop a nice, strong levain the night before, which sits out on the counter until I'm ready to put my dough together in the morning. I started doing this after doing some reading about higher acidity levels in thinner starters, which can negatively impact the outcome of bakes, making them more slack and harder to work with and shape.
Hope you find something useful in all that blah blah! Let us know how you get on!
Forgot to add that using straight AP flour will result in quicker starter rise times, so if you do a mix involving a small portion of whole wheat and/or rye, that will help slow it down, at least in my experience. Also, everyone's starters have unique qualities and personalities, so some might never triple while others seem to shoot for the moon. I would focus more on having a healthy, active starter that is able to double and do what it needs it to do in the dough. Finally, you can always park your starter in the fridge for several hours, even overnight, after it's been fed and started to rise--I do this when I need to adjust timing on use for the dough, and just make sure I give it a few hours at room temp again, to finish what it needs to do before use.
"Forgot to add that using straight AP flour will result in quicker starter rise times, so if you do a mix involving a small portion of whole wheat and/or rye, that will help slow it down, at least in my experience."
I am using 100% whole Hard White Wheat. I AM wondering if my wheat is just too easy for the culture to consume. Maybe I should try a different wheat or maybe rye. Maybe someone is aware of a good discussion or website about that specific topic.
"1) Are you using cold water for your feeds? Is 78F the temp in your kitchen? Is there a way to cool that down to around 70...possible keep it in the basement (if you have one) or some other cooler part of the house?"
I use our unwarmed tap water. It is probably aroud 70dF. Unfortunately, we don't have a cellar or a cool place in the house during the summer. I want to get a wine fridge, but I don't have enough space in the kitchen right now.
"2) Also, you can maintain a very lively and robust starter with fewer feeds by keeping your starter in the fridge in between bakes. For a healthy, active starter, you can actually go weeks in between feeds and just 'refresh' a few days before baking. Feeding every 24 hours and especially twice per day, unless you are baking every 24 hours, would be a pain, expensive and simply not necessary."
Yes, we have done that in the past. But... I am really hoping to get my starter so strong that it triples before I start putting it in the fridge... I read that putting the starter in the fridge is fine, but not ideal for maximizing the starter's potential. I guess I am trying to feed the starter at the perfect time for about 2 weeks straight hoping to see how vigorous I can get the starter. Then, at that point, I will experiment with the fridge and try to understand how little or how much the fridge degrades the starter's potential.
"3) I've also gotten sick and tired of trying to use up discard (one can bake only so many pancakes, loaves of banana bread, etc), that I've now switched to maintaining a much smaller starter, at 50 g max (at 1:1:1 ratios for feeds usually). Do some research on the 'scrapings method' for starter...you will be amazed at how small some of these folks go, successfully, with their maintenance starters."
Thankyou! It is reassuring to hear from someone else's experience that 50g is not too little. Also, I will look into the 'scrapings' method... sounds like a sourdough starter method that uses an extremely small sourdough seed. Which, would answer one of my questions... is there such a thing as too small of a sourdough seed.
"4) There are several chats on this site about maintaining a very thick starter (1:1:3) which reportedly keeps longer and requires less maintenance than a more liquid starter. However, there are limited numbers of recipes for this method."
I am not sure how I feel about that... it would seem that a dry starter might be detrimental to healthy propogation of the culture... but, who knows. Since you brought it up, I will have to look into it. Do you have any links you would recommend?
"5) I've started doing a 1:2:2 pre-feed of my starter before baking and this seems to slow the starter down a bit and doesn't need much if any tweaking of the recipes given most of the ones I use start with 50g starter for the levain, so the difference between 1:1:1 and 1:2:2 is negligible. If I need to adjust with flour, I can do that during the initial mixing steps. This lets me develop a nice, strong levain the night before, which sits out on the counter until I'm ready to put my dough together in the morning. I started doing this after doing some reading about higher acidity levels in thinner starters, which can negatively impact the outcome of bakes, making them more slack and harder to work with and shape."
With a 1:1:1 and a 1:2:2, how much rise do you get out of your starter? 1.5x 2x 2.5x 3.5x? I am curious, since you use the fridge.
Hi again! With the 1:2:2 starter feed, I get plenty of rise, usually 2-2.5x. My parked starter, which usually lives in the fridge, except for pre-weekend builds/feeds (getting ready for weekend baking) usually doubles (sometime triples) in about 4-6 hours, so they are happy beasts (I usually keep two starters, one strictly AP and one with about 65/25/10 mix of AP/WW/rye). I use the AP one for focaccia and pizza doughs, and the mix for my everyday sourdough and seeded loaves. I wonder if your all WW starter is giving the starter too high a concentration of 'yummies'?
I wouldn't get too hung up on the tripling benchmark you have set for yourself...you just might not get there and it won't necessarily be indicative of a 'less than' starter. So long as it seems vigorous and is giving you good results in your bakes, that's a win.
I haven't tried the firm starter method yet, but it seems to have some converts and fans: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/2390/firm-starter-glezer-recipe
http://www.thefreshloaf.com//node/13780/susan039s-simple-small-sourdough-challenge
Another link with more 1:2:2 info:
https://homegrownhappiness.co.nz/homemade-sourdough-step-by-step/
than 5g as a starter inoculate with a maximum of 10x flour feed. A 1 to 20 feeding ratio is possible but things can start to go a little wonky. The pattern of switching to 7g starter to 115g flour turns out to be a ratio of 1 to 16 which is on that risky edge but one thing it is good for is increasing yeast numbers. You are using feeding ratios that are high not low. A 1:1:1 ratio is low feeding ratio not high. A 1:4:4 ratio is higher. One part starter to 4 parts flour.
The feeding 15:100:115. (S:W:F) (grams?) can be also stated as 1: 6.7 : 7.7. (Divide all numbers by 15 and round off.)
Reducing the starter amount from 15g to 7g doubles the amount of flour fed which will make the starter stronger and faster when it adapts to the feeding level. So what you are doing is pushing the starter organisms making them stronger and faster. You are determining which yeasts and bacteria will survive in the starter. There are limits. Pushing the starter yeast and bacteria too fast too often can reduce your bacterial count to the point where they no longer can protect the starter culture from invasive bacteria.
You also say the starter peaks too fast, understandable, you created a fast starter or you encouraged fast yeast. Most likely without knowing it. Sometimes its the "pick of the draw" with wild yeast but a lot has to do with how they are fed and encouraged. By reducing the amount of seed ratio (starter amount used to inoculate more flour and water) only the yeast that are fast enough to multiply and produce gas quickly will survive to reproduce, slower yeasts don't get a chance and with discarding too soon, get tossed until the fast yeast dominate the culture.
The age of the starter culture needs to be considered. A starter that is several months old will not adapt and change as easily as a new starter that is two weeks old. An older starter that has an established pattern, will have yeast groups that have been selected for that feeding pattern and behavior. Also the bacteria groups will have been selected to match the yeast. When first starting a starter a wide variety of possibilities exist for shaping the type of stater desired. There are more varieties of yeast and bacteria in the beginning before the starter is sorted out. Using feed type, amounts and temperatures the starter will be forced to adapt and changes will be made to favour certain yeasts over others, certain bacteria over others and the size of their various colonies will also settle into particular sizes.
edit: I didnt catch your ratios are listed starter: flour: water. Sorry, but ok then, your starter is 115% hydration. Which may affect how high it rises. It will also ferment faster with more hydration and warm temps. It is also not wild but I get the impression you are talking about several different starters; at least one wild and a purchased "tame" one. That you only get 1.8 % rise is strange. Drop the hydration to see what you get. Normally the increase in food corresponds to height increase. Fed 7 times the starter amout should have 7x rise of starter volume for a rough estimate. Then allow the bacteria count to rise before feeding so that it can defend itself with the next fresh flour feeding.