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Submitted by zolablue on March 24, 2007 - 8:43am Firm Sourdough Starter - Glezer recipeI’m finally getting around to posting Maggie Glezer’s firm sourdough starter recipe. For those of you having problems with your starters you might wish to give this a try. Most people here are using batter-style starters so it might be interesting to see if there is any discussion on firm starters. Plus I need help in learning to convert properly for use in recipes which don’t use a firm starter and there are always questions that come up. I have photographed my starter from mixing the dough ball and pressing it into the pint-sized jar through several hourly increments where you can see how grows and finally it quadruples in 8 hours, or in this case just short of 8 hours, which is the “gold standard” Maggie talks about for a firm starter to be ready to leaven bread. I realize there are many opinions and methods on sourdough starters and this is only the one I’ve chosen and that works for me. But as many of you know, I’m a bread newbie and a sourdough newbie and I’m interested in all the information. Some of you were asking about a firm starter so thought this might help. PHOTOS on firm starter: http://zolablue.smugmug.com/gallery/2617049#138085923 (NOTE: Edited to correct recipe 9-25-07 so if you copied it prior to this date please recopy and accept my apologies!)
SOURDOUGH STARTER DIARY – © Copyright, Maggie Glezer, Blessing of Bread (How to make sourdough bread in two weeks or less) To begin a starter, you need only whole rye flour, which is rich in sourdough yeasts and bacteria, bread flour, water, time, and persistence (lots of the last two). Amounts are small because I like to use the minimum of flour practical for building the sourdough, as so much of it will be thrown away. If you are baking bread in the meantime, you can add any of these discards to a yeasted dough for extra flavor. WEEK ONE: SUNDAY EVENING: Mix 1/3 cup (50 grams/1.8 ounces) whole rye flour with 1/4 cup (50 grams/1.8 ounces) water to make a thick paste and scrape it into a clean sealed jar. TUESDAY MORNING: The starter should have puffed a bit and smell sharp. Add 1/3 cup (50 grams/1.8 ounces) bread flour and 1/4 cup (50 grams/1.8 ounces) water to the jar, stir it well, and scrape the sides with a rubber spatula to clean them. Reseal the jar. WEDNESDAY MORNING: The starter should have risen quickly. It is now time to convert it into a stiff starter. In a small bowl, dissolve a scant 2 tablespoons (30 grams/1.1 ounces) starter (discard the rest) in 2 tablespoons (30 grams/1.1 ounces) water, then add 1/3 cup (50 grams/1.8 ounces) bread flour and knead this soft dough. Place it in a clean jar or lidded container, seal it, and let it ferment. THURSDAY EVENING: The starter will not have risen at all; it will have only become very gooey. Repeat the above refreshment, throwing away any extra starter. WEEK TWO: SATURDAY EVENING: The starter will not have risen at all; it will have only become very gooey. Repeat the same refreshment. MONDAY MORNING: The starter will finally be showing signs of rising, if only slightly! Repeat the refreshment. TUESDAY MORNING: The starter should be clearly on its way and have tripled in twenty-four hours. Repeat the refreshment. WEDNESDAY MORNING: The starter should be getting stronger and more fragrant and have tripled in twenty-four hours. Repeat the refreshment. WEDNESDAY EVENING: The starter should have tripled in eight hours. It will be just about ready to use. Reduce the starter in the refreshment to 1 tablespoon (15 grams/0.5 ounce) starter using the same amounts of water and bead flour as before. THURSDAY MORNING: The starter is ready for its final refreshment. Use 1 1/2 teaspoons (10 grams/0.4 ounce) starter, 2 tablespoons (30 grams/1.1 ounces) water, and 1/3 cup (50 grams/1.8 ounces) bread flour.THURSDAY EVENING: The starter is now ready to use in a recipe or to be refreshed once more and then immediately stored in the refrigerator.
Refreshment for a complete Sourdough Starter MAKES: About a rounded 1/3 cup (90 grams/3.3 ounces) starter, enough to leaven about 3 1/3 cups (450 grams/16 ounces) flour in the final dough This stiff starter needs to be refreshed only every twelve hours. Use this formula to refresh a refrigerated starter after if has fully fermented and started to deflate. If the following starter does not quadruple in volume in eight hours or less, refresh it again, with these proportions, until it does. If your kitchen is very cold, you will need to find a warmer area to ferment your starter. 1 1/2 teaspoons (10 grams/0.4 ounce) fully fermented sourdough starter 2 tablespoons (30 grams/1.1 ounces) water 1/3 cup (50 grams/1.8 ounces) bread flour MIXING THE STARTER: In a small bowl, dissolve the starter in the water, then stir in the flour. Knead this stiff dough until smooth. You may want to adjust the consistency of the starter: For a milder, faster-fermenting starter, make the starter softer with a little more water; for a sharper, slower-fermenting starter, make the starter extra stiff with a bit more flour. Place it in a sealed container to ferment for 8 to 12 hours, or until it has fully risen and deflates when touched.
Conversion of a Batter-Type Starter into a Stiff Starter MAKES: About a rounded 1/3 cup (90 grams/3.2 ounces) starter, enough to leaven about 3 1/3 cups (450 gram/16 ounces) flour in the final dough If you already have a batter-type starter – that is, a starter with a pancake-batter consistency – you will need to convert it into a stiff starter for the Glezer recipes, or to check its strength. 1 tablespoon (15 grams/0.5 ounce) very active, bubbly batter-type starter 1 tablespoon (15 grams/0.5 ounce) water 1/3 cup (50 grams/1.8 ounces) bread flour MIXING THE STARTER: In a small bowl, mix the starter with the water, then stir in the flour. Mix this little dough until smooth, adjusting its consistency as necessary with small amounts of flour or water to make a stiff but easily kneaded starter. Let it ferment in a sealed container for 8 to 12 hours, or until it is fully risen and starting to deflate. If the starter has not quadrupled in volume in 8 hours or less, continue to refresh it with the proportions in “Refreshment for a Completed Sourdough Starter” until it does.
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Biga
Mmm, interesting.
I used firm starter before, but it's just a biga like the indirect method mentioned in The Artisan site. I did the long biga (12+ hours).
This is a sourdough starter - not preferment
wildeny, if I read your link correctly they are describing a biga as a preferment along with a poolish, etc., and not a firm or stiff sourdough culture which the recipe I posted is for. Most of the recipes I see on the site are for batter type sourdough starters and a couple people were asking a few days ago about how to make a firm starter. So I don't think we're talking about the same thing.
Hi, I thought about saying
Hi,
I thought about saying something to that effect too but decided to keep out. : -)
I think this is the danger of using foreign words when we don't really understand them. The Italian equivalent of sourdough is biga acida, the consistency of biga or b acida varies per the author.
I don't think it matters to the bread how you made your sourdough starter initially but the flavour of the bread will alter slightly if you use a dough type starter or a batter type starter. I prefer batter types as I think it has a more rounded flavour but it is quite subtle.
Sourdough-guy
stiff starter
Zolablue, that is the starter which I use too. It keeps very well in the fridge - for weeks and weeks if need be - and comes straight back to activity after two feedings. I've never bothered with waiting for it to quadruple - ~I hate wasting loads of flour / starter, so when I want to bake, I take 30 grams starter (feeding the original with the proportions to make a stiff starter and putting back in the fridge) and add 40 grams flour 40 grams water, mix and leave 8 hours. Add 100 grams water, 100 grams flour, leave overnight. If it is bubbling well, it will raise the dough. Next morning add the remaining ingredients and that is the dough made - it has had it's two refreshments, but none at all goes to waste.To convert to a "batter" starter for some breads, I take 10 grams of this starter, mix it with 30 grams water, add 30 grams flour - and that is that. Leave it for about 8 hours and it should be a happy, active batter type starter.You've been making some stunning breads for a "newbie" - I think you have to find another way of describing yourself!! You may not be an "old timer" in terms of months and years, but you've certainly become a most accomplished baker.
Andrew
Andrew - yes, I wonder why more people don't
keep a firm starter. It uses way less flour and makes a very manageable amount. My starter makes about 90 grams total and I just started saving the discarded starter to flavor yeasted breads.
Now, from what you describe you are doing with yours it actually is not a firm starter once you get it ready to use in bread, correct? And I wonder why yours never did quadruple - but cool that it still works! I had mine in the fridge, unfed, for 3 weeks recently and once I removed it I only had to feed it twice at 20g starter, 30g water, and 50g flour and it came right back to quadruple. Since then, because temps here have really warmed I reduced it to 15g/30g/50g. Actually, just before I reduced it my starter was quintupling. I was worried about reducing it (with the cold temps outside) but I persevered and figured out I had been feeding it far more often than necessary and just not allowing it the time it needed to build up its strength to quadruple at 15g.
I was told Glezer has kept this starter in her fridge for 3 years and refreshed it 5 times and it was ready to bake. Can this be done with a liquid starter? I think it speaks well of the strength of the firm starter and it sure is easy to convert by adding water for a liquid starter recipe. Having said that I have had angst over that conversion.
Andrew, thanks for the compliments, but honestly half the time I'm holding my breath hoping things will work. When they do, I'm extremely grateful!
batter starter doesn't have to use lots of flour
Hi Zolablue, Andrew,
I may be wrong, but it seems like a misconception that you have to use lots of flour or dump lots of flour to have a batter starter. I store only a small amount of starter, like 100g or so. I guess I could go much smaller if I wanted. There really is no reason you couldn't, except I don't see the point, as I can still build whatever size starter I want after that, leaving just the amount I want to store.
As a practical matter, I've not seen a huge issue with length of storage. I just revived my KA starter after 2 months with just a couple of feedings. Sure, if you want to keep it for years, then you could switch to a firm starter.
Bill
bwraith, on your starter...
Are you saying your starter, when stored, is about 100 grams total? Or do you feed it using 100 grams flour? Or (hehe) do you use 100 grams starter and refresh that and, if so, how much flour do you use to feed it? I have to think it is still at least double what I'm using to refresh mine so that does add up.
Nope, I don't throw out flour, honest...
Zolablue,
Yes, I store about 100g of batter starter, which has 50g of flour in it. However, I hardly ever throw any flour out. I only feed it after I've used up all but 20g, at which point I feed it 40g of flour and 40g of water, or more usually, I build up, refreshing as I go, to the amount I need for a recipe with an extra 100g of starter I can toss back in the refrigerator at some point during the build cycle. There is no requirement to feed it once it is refrigerated. Yes, if I were to store it for months, it would keep better as a firm starter, but other than that, there is little practical difference I can think of.
I do admire Glezer for not compromising on things like "frugal culture management", dough handling, use of multiple preferments, and other more complex aspects. I am a fan of the wonderful breads you've made, and my hat's off to you. However, on this batter vs. firm starter thing..., I think most of the information about batter starters that involves throwing out lots of flour is due to authors trying to make a very simple approach for beginners to follow, e.g the BBA. If we asked Glezer, she could write us a version of her book that starts with a batter starter that uses more frugal methods, and very little would be different about the resulting breads. The recipes would build from a batter starter instead of from a firm starter is all. I will say, the waste and unnecessary mess in the Silverton recipe is hard to believe, although maybe she has some good reasons (from her point of view) for doing it that way, if we were to ask her. She is a legendary baker, after all, even if her starter doesn't make sense to us.
Summarizing, you can use a batter starter or firm starter in much the same way. All it really amounts to is a different amount of water is in the starter, which has to be made up for elsewhere. Other than that, I don't think there is much practical difference. If you ignored the water, the methods could be thought of as very similar. I don't even think the flavor differences would be that great, as long as you use similar rise times and temperatures, and keep the proportions of flour in the various preferments and dough the same.
Having said all that, now I'll probably get an earful about my mistaken views from some of the heavy duty bakers around here. I'd love to learn from that, and I'll hold on to my helmet.
Bill
Bill, I'm with ya...
...and I certainly hope you don't get an earful. :o) There are so many opinions and the same number of methods and they all seem to work and we all have our own reasons for choosing. I do think some of our personalities tend to be a bit anal and we should just try doing these things and not worry so much about them. I guess I should speak for myself and I am!
But there is so much info available that causes new bakers to overthink because well respected people can disagree. Still, I just want all the info I can get and then, like you and others, I'll decide what works best for me.
My biggest question is the flavor factor. I really have to be curious when someone says they can really taste a difference between the starters. I just didn't realize it could be so varied in the final outcome. Aren't we all cultivating the same organisms basically? No matter, it all makes good bread.
As for Silverton, please don't get me wrong. I have her book, I'm dying to make some of her recipes, and she is an outstanding baker. I just think the huge vats of starter are unnecessary. But without question I have learned a lot from reading her book so far. I’m definitely a fan.
Just trying stuff...
Zolablue,
Your, "just try it" comment reminds me of the ciabatta on my recent ski trip using instant yeast and a poolish, which I hadn't done in a while. I remember your comments along the lines of, "just deal with that wet dough". It was very uncomfortable, but I stuck with it, and just as you said, it came together. I never would have even thought of trying it, if you hadn't encouraged me to try ciabatta "Glezer style", let alone your comments on handling and good photos.
I think the flavor differences of different starters are certainly there, but I think they are subtle compared to the differences resulting from rise times and temperatures of preferments and proportions of preferments in the dough, and then rise times and temperatures of the dough itself.
One thing you might find interesting is to try making baguettes or some other classic shape with different "recipe starters". For example, if you use 500 grams of flour with 325 grams of water and 10 grams of salt for an overall dough recipe, then you could make three different versions. 1) add a couple of tablespoons of starter in the ingredients, mix and knead, and whatnot, let it rise, form and bake. 2) put a tablespoon of starter in 100 grams of flour and 50 grams of water, knead, and let it rise, retard, etc., then add the "recipe starter" to remainder of ingredients, let it rise, form, and bake. or, 3) put a tablespoon of starter in 100 grams of flour and 100 grams of water, let it rise, retard, etc., then add to remainder of dough ingredients, let it rise, form, and bake.
You would have three breads that all have the same hydration and salt. However, each one would have different proportions of intermediate fermentations and hydrations. They all used your same initial starter. How do they compare in taste, texture, given you tried to handle them the same way and the total ingredients are the same?
Bill
Great idea, Bill...
...I will try that. That'a a great way to control things myself and really get a good feel for how my starter is affecting my dough.
Also, I am trying to figure out how to make the ABAA Acme Baguette recipe using my starter. Have you made that recipe? It is so good, I crave it. So while there is no need to change a great recipe I'd love to experiment with it. But it uses minute amounts of yeast, as you know Glezer can do, and incorporates both a poolish and scrap dough. I'm not quite sure if I'd handle them the same way; i.e., leaving one at room temp all night and the other out for 3 hours and then into the fridge. I think the rising times would be all off too but I'm going to consider it another challenge.
PS...I love wet dough! (grin)
acme baguettes
Zolablue,
I've had a hard time matching flavors or textures from yeasted breads to sourdough versions of the same recipe. Remember the sourdough ciabatta I did? I was very happy with it, because the sourdough flavor was so good, especially for sandwiches, but the crumb wasn't like yours. I came a lot closer on my ski trip to something like yours, using yeast. However, the flavor of the sourdough ciabatta was not much like the flavor of the ciabatta made w/yeast.
So, I'd just "go for it". With your instinct for dough handling, I have a feeling you would figure out how to get the texture right. The flavor from the sourdough will automatically give you some acidity and some extra flavors, usually for the good, as far as I'm concerned, short of getting some unpleasant excess of sourness.
You could try the following, to just get rolling:
Make a "recipe starter" by mixing 30g of your starter to 185g of flour and 185 g of water. Let it rise by double, then refrigerate overnight. Next day, add "recipe starter" from the refrigerator to 170g water, 365g flour, 11g salt. Handle as you do so well, and bake.
You will find the sourdough acids affect the texture of the dough. You may want to do things like use higher protein or lower protein flour, or adjust hydration higher or lower, or change the salt a little, to get the right texture as you think it should be.
I bet there are some sourdough baguette masters who might see this and tell us how to make great sourdough baguettes.
Bill
Thanks, Bill
You're such a great help to me. I really appreciate it. I love your passion for bread baking - we are all a bit obssessed, huh!
I did make a fabulous sourdough baguette from info ehanner posted on Mountaindog's thread about "oven spring and folding" although it was only adding some discarded starter to that recipe so it wasn't a true all sourdough. But it was an incredible exercise in mixing the dough all by hand on the counter. Gosh, now THAT was fun!
Thanks again for all your help. I'll let you know if I get any results worthy of passing on.
I feel the same way about Silverton starter
This past summer, after my successful yeast capture, I was astounded to see the amounts that Silverton suggested using to create a starter. (For a home baker?!) But I too love pretty much every other aspect of Nancy Silverton’s Breads from the La Brea Bakery.
When I first got the bread baking bug some years ago, I swore that I would never get to the point that I would bother capturing my own yeast. I remember staring in awe at the step by step accounts in Leader's Bread Alone and thinking it seemed awfully daunting. And then after reading Steingarten's hilarious chapter about capturing wild yeast in The Man Who Ate Everything, I was firm in my resolve to stick with active dry yeast.
It wasn't until this year, when I read Piano Piano Pieno by Susan McKenna Grant that I got up the courage to try capturing wild yeast. Her starter recipe is definitely aimed at the home cook who is likely to be making just a couple of loaves of bread at a time.
-Elizabeth
(wild yeast starter recipe based on McKenna Grant's recipe)
qiote right, Zola
the starter is kept as a firm starter in the fridge but is turned into a more liquid one to refresh and use. This is why I don't worry about quadrupling - it is fairly liquid at this stage and in a big mixing bowl so the other ingredients can be added to it - so absolutely no flour goes to waste. I reckon that, in the 19th century and earlier, flour was so precious (people used to go out gleaning for grain after the Harvest, it was so important ) so I don't think they could have followed a regime that included dumping loads of flour. But I keep it as a firm starter for exactly the reasons you mention - it keeps so very well. I don't think Glezer could have a left a liquid starter for 3 years!I do have other recipes I use where the starter is used as a stiff starter and whisked into the water before flour is added - I just find the method I tend to use simpler. If a recipe says (these are made up figures for illustrative uses only!) 30 grams stiff starter, 270 grams water, 400 grams flour, then I'd use the starter and add say, 50 grams water and 50 grams of the flour, mix, leave overnight and add the remaining flour and water the next day. It works for me - and that, I think, is what matters!
Andrew
Andrew, but wouldn't it also work...
...to just keep the starter firm and not even worry about converting it to batter for use in a non-Glezer recipe by using the percentages based on her recipes. In other words since most of her recipes use between 1 - 2 tablespoons of firm starter could I not just either somewhat wing it and use those amounts or learn the baker's percentages and use it that way.
While I'm curious about how the liquid starters work and taste I have such a great one going and it is so strong and active why rock the boat. Plus I agree with you that the amounts of flour being used just to maintain some of these starters, a.k.a. Silverton is outrageous.
any starter, for any recipe, pretty much
Zolablue,
I'll be interested to hear how Andrew does it, but I thought I would toss in my two cents. I maintain a very small amount of batter style starter when it is just stored in the refrigerator. If I need a certain amount of liquid or firm starter as called for in a recipe, call it the "recipe starter", I just build the "recipe starter" by combining some amount of my refrigerated starter with the remaining flour and water that constitute the "recipe starter" and let it rise until it is ready to be used in the recipe. I think you could do the same thing with your firm starter as I do with my batter starter, i.e. build whatever "recipe starter" you need from your refrigerated firm starter.
Another approach is to use an amount of your starter, whatever consistency it may be, such that the same amount of flour is contributed to the recipe by your starter. The difference in water contributed by your particular starter is then made up in the dough or preferment recipes, such that you still have the same overall hydration in the preferments and final dough.
I see little difference between maintaining a firm or batter starter. I seldom throw out flour with my batter starter, as I store only a small amount and just build what I need when I need it. I agree some of the approaches, like Silverton, waste lots of flour, but that's just that author's particular bent, not anything specific to a batter starter. As Sourdough-guy said elsewhere, if you want to store for longer periods, it does make sense to switch to a firm starter, but that makes little practical difference if you are baking even only once every two months, as I have no problem refreshing my batter starter after two months.
Bill
Andrew, may I quote you?
You have some good instructions and we are discussing this on another site so I would love to pass along your info. You have good practice at converting to liquid. It seems to me most recipes call for liquid starters so perhaps this is why it appears most people gravitate towards that style. The conversion for liquid starter recipes is key to make them properly although another thing Glezer says is that many older recipes call for way too much starter.
I agree with the waste issue and, again, is another reason the firm works so well. And I can tell you I know for a fact Glezer did use her starter that was stored for 3 years and then refreshed only 5 times to bake bread. (wink)
I appreciate all your help. I may have a few more questions for you on this in the next few days so check back. I was hoping FINEART would see this as he/she asked about the firm starter before and I had not typed up the recipe. With all the problems I see posted on the starters lately I'd love to see if this one would work for those who are struggling. It has sure been a simple and great starter for me so far.
Zola, of course
you can pass on the info. Use anything that you find useful. I'm sure Glezer's firm starter recipe would help many people - I didn't have to use pineapple or anything like that, did you? Somehow I don't quite like the idea of using anything other than flour and water!
What I meant in my previous post was not to doubt that Glezer kept her starter for 3 years and then refresh it, only to say that I bet she couldn't have done the same with a liquid starter! I don't think they keep as well unfed.
What is the other site you are visiting? Is it as interesting and informative as this one? I find each visit here fascinating!!
Hi Andrew, When you make a
Hi Andrew,
When you make a new starter from scratch using the batter method, I don't think it matter myself which method you use, you don't have to use pineapple either. The only only difference is that when you use a dough method you don't notice the leuconostoc, it's still there in some cases, you can tell by the stink, but you don't see it that's all. Incidentally, when I tried the pineapple method, I used a firm dough starter to test it. I've also made a starter using the firm starter method and added a spot of vodka as soon as I noticed the stink, it worked a treat, though in this case I added a spot too much and the starter took a little longer than it probably should have to activate. But it didn't stink out the kitchen, so I didn't mind.
Sourdough-guy
acid in either batter or firm starter...
Sourdough-guy,
I've had the same experience, i.e. it all works the same for me, whether I use a firm or batter method. They both stink terribly and rise a huge amount in the first 24 hrs. For example, using the Glezer 1st day recipe recently, it rose by 3x, and smelled just awful. I'm not sure whether it's leuconostoc or something else. The part that seems different for me after that, is that in my case it delays the beginning of "normal" behavior in the culture by from days to weeks. I don't know what makes it so consistent for me, but something about my kitchen, or where I live, or who knows what behaves differently from the recipes. In my case, it works wonders to put ascorbic acid in the water at the start. Then, things work much more according to schedules printed in various books. I've seen enough posts by others who experience something similar, that I believe it's "real" and not just a technique problem.
Bill
Vodka!
Sounds a potent starter!! Vodka bread! I was lucky, then, I guess - my starter (Glezer method) didn't smell bad at all - it just sat for a few days doing little, then began to ferment and basically followed the pattern which she had said it would. And began to smell really appetising after the first week, having smelled of nothing really - except flour - before that. And it has kept going ever since with no problem - so I am very grateful for Maggie Glezer's instuctions!
Andrew
I think it's more to do
I think it's more to do with the flour and conditions than to do with who says what amount of flour and water Andrew. : -)
Sourdough-guy
how much vodka?
Sourdough-guy,
By the way, about how many grams of Vodka per gram of starter flour would you put in?
Bill
OOh, it was such a long time
OOh, it was such a long time ago now and I really didn't measure it out that well, I was using 2 oz of dough so perhaps it was about a teaspoon of 40% vodka, or even less then diluted a tad.
The smell went from smoked Gouda to nice clean starter in just a couple of hours.
Sourdough-guy
No stink here! (hehe)
I had only one day that the starter, after a few days, smelled more sharp but that was as Glezer described it would. That was also when she said it would look very dead but to persevere. I did and it developed very nicely and in addition it had a fabulous scent. It has never smelled anything but really nice.
There is that saying again..."works a treat!" I love that.
Nope, didn't add anything odd ingredients
I followed the recipe exactly although I did start with the one from Artisan Baking which begins with more flour and water. I hear ya on the difference between liquid and firm. But it also sounds like certain people are just having a problem no matter which type. That's a shame - I feel very lucky now that my first starter is the one I'm using today. Of course, it is only about 3 month's old.
I frequent the cooking forum on gardenweb. We, over there, are as passionate about cooking as people are about bread baking here and there are so many nice and helpful people who participate. Many there are expert bread bakers and have imparted some extremely helpful informatin to me as well. Don't know what I'd do without these sites.
starters- firm vs batter type
I thought I would add my 2 cents here. I have been successfully baking sourdoughs sometimes with a firm starter and sometimes with a batter starter. Just about all of my breads have yielded really nice results. I have made Maggie Glezer's Thom Leonard country bread with the firm starter that is called for in the recipe, and just this weekend I tried it with my batter style starter. I think it was the best result yet. Now because of the number of variables involved, I really can't jump to conclusion that it was better because of the batter starter, but it did encourage me to continue using it. I think that it is easier to maintain a batter style starter- you don't need to do any kneading, just a bit of stirring and you are done. And I do not waste much flour, usually feeding only 2 ounces of flour each time.
Actually, I may really owe my good results to mountaindog (on this site) who contributed her interpretation of the Thom Leonard boule. Either her edition of the Artisan Baking book is different than mine, or she just added her take on the instructions. In my book, there is no autolyse mentioned for that bread, but I followed mountaindog's instructions, and I think it was really worthwhile. She also offered that she used 45 grams (I believe) of a batter starter in place of the 30 grams of firm starter called for in the recipe. I will try to find her instructions on this web and add the link if I can figure out how!!
Hi caryn, you raise a few
Hi caryn, you raise a few points there. I dabbled with using a dough type starter for a little while simply because it was so much easier to work out my recipe, I use a formula rather than exact quantities, but I went back mainly because it tastes better in my opinion. If you keep your starter at 100% and you work in weight it is fairly simple to work out your recipe though. Now working in volume is a little different. My brains to small for that, I'd end up using a bit of this and a bit of that I think. ;-)
Sourdough-guy
Mountaindog very helpful indeed...
...and I appreciate the info on how she used her batter starter because I remembered she is doing that. I was wondering how to know the amount to use just as I'm trying to learn how much of the firm starter to use, and how much water to add, to use in liquid-starter recipes.
I actually have both the hardcover and paperback versions of the Glezer book because I loved it so much. LOL. Ok, I'm crazy but its fun.
I have made the Thom Leonard boule/s a couple times and love the bread. It does have a 90-minute fermentation period right after mixing the dough, including 3 turns, and a 15-minute autolyse after turning the dough out of the bowl before shaping the loaves.
I'm learning that even though baking is generally a more exact science compared to cooking, it seems bread baking lends itself very well to much experimentation and that's another thing I love about it. I'd be interested to try a new liquid starter to compare to my firm one to see if I can determine a taste difference. Only for we obsessed bread bakers, huh! However I absolutely love the way the firm starter works and it is nothing to mix up that little dough ball.
mountaindog's annotated version of Thom Leonard boule
I referred to mountaindog's interpretation of the Thom Leonard boule in my last post- to get to it- here is the link: mountaindog's description of the Thom Leonard recipe
A couple questions...
I've seen that link before but thanks for linking it again. Great info!
Caryn, what recipe did you use for your liquid starter? Also, can you describe, if possible, just how you thought the bread tasted better? I understand what you mean about the variables and there are many. It is a nice comparison to make though.
Even Glezer will state the liquid starter is easier to maintain. I can't say because I've only done the one - perhaps another good reason to try liquid so I can speak with personal experience understanding both. I often find, though, that what many people think is difficult is not at all.
Questions
I am just getting back to this.
1. I created my starter by following the instructions in the BBA book, and then when it did not respond as well as I had thought, I added some water in which I had soaked some raisins!! That was a tip from someone on this site some time ago. When it became nice and active, I just did the routine refreshes with bread flour and water. I created my firm starter by following instructions to convert one from the other. I don't remember if the instructions that I followed were in the BBA book or the Glezer book. Then I maintained each separately. Glezer gives instructions for refreshing the firm starter, and for the batter starter, I usually refresh using the ratio of 1:2:2-starter to flour to water.
2. Actually there was only one time that I did not like the flavor of the Thom Leonard boule- it tasted absolutely flat, having very little taste (as if I had omitted salt, but did not!!). I had used the firm starter, but that might not have been the reason. It is possible that I over-kneaded it, trying to get the dough to pass the test ( I forget what it is called right now) where you can see a nice web effect when you pull a small piece of dough apart. Then, when the bread came out really well with the batter starter, I decided to primarily use that. It was not a very scientific conclusion, I will admit! :)
Great thread. Some nooB questions
Zolablue,
Thanks for striking up a great dicsussion topic! I have a newbie question regarding the firm starter as I have only made a few loves using my batter type thus far.
1. The firm starter that everyone is discussing seems to resemble just a ball of dough that you grew from a slightly acidified and liquid starter. When this is done, you should have a small ball of dough correct?
2. I understand the conversion of a batter to a firm. (I am doing this currently AND converting to back to whole wheat) My question is that all I did was take the remaining mother batter I had which was about 1/4c (I'll pick up a scale soon as I am ready!) and poured that into a ss bowl and added some wheat flour and made a ball. I put this into a quart mason jar (sanitized because I can) and loosely put the lid on this. Next morning (today) it was 3 times the size and was all bubbly. When I put this into the jar, it was a firm dough, but now its a stringy webby looking dough. I had to pull this out and when I fed it, all I did was add more flour. No water. Is this correct? Should I be tossing some of this out? I usually keep growing as my current recipes call for a few cups of starter in batter form, so I try ti grow up a bit as I bake every few days.
3. Last question. When using a firm starter, do I just pull a piece off and toss it into a water and flour recipe? I never had to add water to my other recipes because the starter was high in liquid. If so how much starter dough per batch?
thanks. I am out today looking for Glezer's book!
danmark - firm starter info...
Danmerk, I’ll try and answer your questions but I’m also very new to this. As I’ve stated before, I keep this starter because I wanted to make the recipes in Artisan Baking and they call for a firm starter. Also, know many on this site have made the recipes successfully using a batter starter.
I like this starter because I feel it is very stable and very consistent. It was actually made not from a liquid starter I already had rather this is my first starter made from Glezer’s instructions. Do note that her ingredient amounts to begin the starter in the book Artisan Baking have been cut in half for Blessing of Bread but they end up basically using the same amounts for final refreshments. It starts as a liquid but becomes firm on the third day. It is also very strong so a little goes a long way. In addition, it uses very little flour so I don’t feel as wasteful and I can keep it in a small pint jar instead of a quart jar or bigger. It also stores for longer periods of time as a firm starter – up to years unrefreshed.
Yes, it starts as a dough ball and as it grows it becomes very gooey. You simply take the amount necessary for a recipe and dissolve it in water. It is simple.
If you wish to use it in place of a liquid starter you simply take the amount of starter you wish to use (see Andrew’s instructions above) and add equal parts flour and water. Just make sure you are doing that with a good, strong firm starter that can quadruple in 8 hours or less, which is the gold standard for firm starters. Or use Glezer’s instructions for converting a batter starter to firm for those recipes that call for firm and you can still keep your liquid starter, if you like that best.
I have been successfully using my starter to replace yeast in other recipes by adding only the starter in the amount I wish - even discarded, unrefreshed starter that has been stored for 2 – 3 days in my refrigerator – and creating a levain the night before (much as Glezer does in Artisan Baking recipes) and simply adding it to the regular dough recipe. I then add a bit of salt to compensate for the additional flour in my starter. I think it was L_M on this site who steered me towards how to do that. As an example, if I use 75 grams of my firm starter I add 1/8 teaspoon salt. That’s what Rose Levy Beranbaum posted about doing on her site.
My starter is kept at 15 grams starter and refreshed with 30 grams water and 50 grams flour. Once the temps get consistently warmer outdoors I’ll take it down to 10g/30g/50g.
I posted the link to my photos above but in case you missed that here is the succession of my starter from mixing to quadrupling in 8 hours. I’m sorry, I do not know about making a wheat starter although Glezer says you do not have to keep a separate rye starter. She gives instructions on how to make an overnight conversion to use in any recipe calling for a rye levain. I would suppose it is the same for whole wheat but not sure. Others, I hope, will chime in.
Starts out as this little dough ball – takes only a minute to knead:
Plop in a pint jar and I smoosh it down and mark where the top is:
At 4 hours a dome has formed and it has more than doubled:
At 6 hours it has grown about 2 1/2 times by volume:
By just before the 8 hours it had quadrupled:
This photo taken out of the above sequence only to show it once it has collapsed:
Mountaindog - firm starter here
MD, I tend to overthink things (nah, who me?) and I believe I needed to make a liquid starter for myself to see the differences. I posted elsewhere I started Hamelman's liquid starter recipe on May 8 and I was amazed at how easy and quick that starter took off. I did change his feeding amounts after a week though to 100% from his 125% using 60g each of starter, water, and flour. But I had so many questions because Hamelman doesn't really go into much detail as Glezer does and I was unsure of when I needed to catch it to bake with. I do still want to understand it and thanks to Bill's comprehensive post on the 100% he answered a lot of questions.
And now I think I have solved the mystery of liquid vs firm starter. Drum roll...the liquid starter has more water! (lol) I know this is personal but I didn't find it any easier, in fact, more difficult for me to keep it. It has to be fed way more often and with my firm starter you know without a doubt exactly how active it is.
I baked the 100% WW sourdough today using the new starter converted to WW per your instructions (thanks). I also mixed up a batch of Columbia last night using my new liquid white starter just to compare any differences. I'll bake those loaves tomorrow. But I already know that they'll perform and taste the same.
If you're interested I'll be happy to help with what I've learned about the firm starter. Maggie said one of the easiest ways to kill a starter is to feed too often. I know I was doing that early on and it would always get just so far and then never quadruple. Once I went to roughly 24-hour feedings it just took off. Then as I refrigerate it off and on that seems to help it as well.
I'm so glad I successfully made another starter but I would never trade my firm starter. I think it is easier to mix and store and uses such small quantities of flour. I love that sucker!
yeah, the water's different, exactly right...
Zolablue,
Hope you don't mind I jump in here on your comment to mountaindog (Hi Mountaindog).
I love what you said - the mystery is solved - there's a different amount of water in each starter - otherwise not that different. That's pretty much how I feel about it. I know there are some differences in flavor that will develop as a function of consistency, but as far as I can tell, the differences aren't that large.
Other than that, I guess trying out firm starter maintenance is on my long list of stuff to try. I'm not sure I agree that the feeding schedules are all that different once you get your 100% hydration starter going. In other words, refreshing after you take it out of the refrigerator, as I was reading in Glezer for the firm starer, seems quite similar to what would happen with the 100% hydration starter. I also keep a fairly small amount of starter in the refrigerator for storage, and with a little planning can build my 100% starter up for use in recipes with very little starter being thrown out. However, I can see that you work with very small amounts, and the idea of a nice dry and small dough sitting in the refrigerator sounds convenient and neat and clean, too. So, you've got me paying attention and thinking about giving it a try, especially since you switched back and forth without any trouble. Gives me some confidence to mess with the methods here.
I don't doubt Glezer's comments about overfeeding, in fact you've won me over as a Glezer fan, but my experience has been that one of the easiest mistakes you can make with the liquid starters, which may be less common with a firm starter, is to underfeed it, rather than overfeed it. Since doubling times are roughly 2 hours in an unsalted paste at room temperature, you really have to feed often, like 1:2:2 every 4 hours (5x volume increase) to really get far enough ahead of the growth rates of a healthy culture to actually dilute it enough to kill it. On the other hand, if you leave a normal 100% starter at 76F for 24 hours, the fermentation product levels get very high, and some of the organisms may go into a steep decline, changing the balance of the culture for the worse. That's why I'm not a fan of leaving a culture out at room temperature for maintenance, even if that's how it was done for 1000s of years. As an aside, my dad says my great grandmother kept her culture in the kitchen and used it to feed sourdough pancakes to the ranch hands every morning and make fresh bread every afternoon. Even so, I say keep the culture in the refrigerator.
As always, I much enjoy your commentary and your enthusiasm. I'm inspired once again to start playing with starters, especially trying out converting over to Glezer's technique for a while to see how it goes - reverse of your latest experiments.
Bill
Thanks ZB for pointing me here
ZB - thanks, this is exactly what I was looking for. I will give the firm a try again and see if I can keep it strong. I think my earlier problem may have been a too young starter and possible over-feeding. Agree with Bill though on how easy it is to underfeed a wet starter, esp. as the weather gets warmer.
Bill - that's a nice piece of family history about your great-grandmother cooking on the ranch - she was probably feeding her starter frequently anyhow since she was using it twice a day between the pancakes and the bread, so maybe she didn't need the refrigeration after all?
feeding it twice daily at a high ratio, I imagine...
Hi Mountaindog,
I imagine my great grandmother must have fed her starter at least a couple of times a day if she was making pancakes in the morning and bread in the afternoon. You're right that there was therefore not much risk of underfeeding even in warm weather. My routine is far more erratic. I bake about 2-4 times per month or so, reviving the starter a day or two before, and slice and freeze the bread and refrigerate the starter in between.
Zolablue, thanks again for all the information on the firm starter approach.
Bill
Some super info from the horse's mouth
(So to speak.:o)
Mountaindog – honestly, I started mine on January 4 of this year (my sister’s BD so I can always remember) and it was SUPER cold here. I know that had a lot to do with my somewhat slow start. Or rather it performed exactly as Glezer stated but once it got to the triple part I could not get it to quadruple. She says you just need to keep refreshing until it does and I was not confident about that at the time and got really frustrated.
I had a chance to correspond with Glezer – she is FABULOUS! And super generous and kind. I was able to ask her a lot of questions and she really helped me. It was then I was able to really make this thing take off. That’s when she told me about not overfeeding a firm starter. Still, you have to persevere to get it to the quadruple point by continuing to refresh. And once temps warmed up here that made an enormous difference.
She wants you to eventually take it to 10g starter:30g water:50g flour but I’ve never been able to make it quadruple yet doing that so I have been happy to keep it at 15g S:30g W:50g F. I see how it is very different with a wetter starter as it just doesn’t have the amount of flour. But so far that's all I can see as different.
She explained the flexibility of this type of starter “if you wait for it to fully rise and fall” and then says, “it can then wait even 12 hours for a feeding, which is the beauty of the firm starter. It is so packed with flour that the pH falls slowly, and there is plenty of sugar for the flora…”
That is when she told me she had just revived a starter she had stored in her refrigerator unfed for 3 years. She gave it 5 refreshments and had dough rising at that moment. That made a big impact on me because while my schedule is more flexible than some others I really wanted that kind of option.
Dang, to get a starter
Dang, to get a starter revived after 3 years blows my mind! I thought I was lucky to get mine revived after 6 months.
Happy birthday
mid May is the birthday of my firm (Glezer method) starter. Unfortunately - I can't remember how many years old it is - 2 or 3? I think 3. It steadily improved in performance (speed of rise) and flavour for about a year, but has seemed consistent since then. I feel compelled to keep two lots going in the fridge in case a disaster happens with one lot! I'd say it has survived like this in the fridge underfed, rather than overfed, but doesn't seem to mind at all. It revives when fed very happily.Happy birthday, starter!
Andrew
More...
Bill, I wanted to mention to you that she kind of updated her instructions in her more recent book, Blessings of Bread, and changed some of the amounts and times so that’s the one I think I posted above. Bascially, I think she cut down on starter amount and rounded the water and flour so it is slightly different and that’s the one I go by.
Also, you probably already know this, but it is not in the form of a dough ball except when you first mix it. As it rises it turns into this sticky, gooey, kind of webbed airy thing. So when you use it you have a nice sticky substance. I think people (not you) confuse this with pate fermente or biga instead of a firm sourdough starter. Same as theirs just has more flour and less water. But very strong in the French method of doing.
I’m going to keep feeding my new Hamelman starter in order to gain more first-hand experience. I may even try to go back to Hamelman’s 125% feeding schedule. It is a beautiful starter – again, so easy, I’m wondering why so many people have such a hard time creating one. Is it that I use KA flour? Anyway, it took just over a week and it was going great and smelling delicious. I just took it out of the fridge today where it had been unfed for the past 3 days and has risen by a quarter in 1 ½ hours. I think that must be pretty good for one started a couple weeks ago.
I also love hearing your grandmother’s story. I think those things keep us connected as families and also allow us to pass on these things to others who can appreciate them.
Andrew!!! Happy birthday to your starter! I believe it is 3 years as I remember. You have been one to help me so much with the firm starter when I was getting frustrating early on. You are the only other person on this site I know of that uses the Glezer starter!
re: more
Hi Zolablue,
I have a sense of what the firm starter would be like in consistency, based on your description. When I know I'm going to be leaving my starter in the refrigerator for a while, I thicken it up and get a consistency partway to what you're describing.
Do you recommend getting "The Blessings of Bread", i.e. does it have new, interesting information/recipes in it above and beyond "Artisan Baking"? I may want to get it. After your many references to Glezer, I got Artisan Baking and think it's excellent.
Thanks again for the firm starter information. I do want to try it out. I'm part of the way to Andrew's approach anyway, and maybe I should just switch over and maintain it as a firm starter regularly. I do see some advantages to it. There's little disadvantage in baking, since it's then a simple matter to build starters of any consistency from there for recipes, so it would all be about the same as far as baking goes.
As far as the stories of my great grandmother doing sourdough pancakes and breads for the ranch hands, you're right that those stories and the connections they make are fun to discover. Originally that part of my family were homesteaders in Montana. My grandmother took me to the original site of the homestead one time when I was about 12 years old. I only heard the story about the sourdough baking my great grandmother did when my dad saw me make some sourdough pancakes for Christmas a couple of years ago, and it sparked a memory from his childhood.
Bill
Book
Floyd has written a really nice review of the book and, btw, I said the title wrong. It is A Blessing of Bread: The Many Rich Traditions of Jewish Baking Around the World to be exact. I have to admit I have not taken the time to read the book yet except for the sourdough parts which are much more comprehensive but I'm not sure you need the info. I have read through some of the recipes and plan to try many of them.
So I like the book, LOVE Glezer's methods, but you would have to decide if those are breads you want to bake. Actually, Andrew, turned me onto the book because of the additional sourdough info and I scampered to buy it as I was struggling alone and it is when I first started posting here. Luckily Andrew was right there to help me with the Glezer starter.
Read Floyd's review:
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/bookreviews/ablessingofbread
...and see the book on Amazon.
You are right about how to keep a starter and simply change the hydration levels for storing and recipes. Actually, Hamelman has quite a lot of recipes specifying a stiff starter so that's kind of cool. I like how he differentiates and he does say he thinks it is important to the integrity of the author's recipe to use what they call for. I don't know about that personally as I don't think my palate is quite that developed. :o)
I baked Columbia again yesterday using Mountaindog's levain for using the liquid starter and it turned out fabulous!
Zolablue - quadrupling at last!!
ZB, you might remember me saying that my starter doesn't quadruple but still makes a good loaf. Well - today, for some reason known only to itself, it had quadrupled within four hours of feeding and is going some still - up to about 6x the original volume and rising! Same flour, same water - amazing! I'm wondering now what it will do when I make dough with it.....! It is still at the firm stage - 20g starter, 30 g water and 50 g flour.
Andrew
only the starter knows...
Hi Andrew,
I've been consulting w/the Glezer firm starter guru here, and a couple of months ago I switched part of my 100% starter over to a Glezer firm starter. I've been feeding it 10g:30g:50g and it rises by about 3.5x in 8 hours. I've been just feeding it every 12-24 hours depending on what's convenient, hoping it will eventually speed up as described by Zolablue, and now by you, too.
I see that you aren't sure what may have helped, but if there are some things that occur to you that may have affected it for the better, I'd be interested to know. Even if you aren't sure, just knowing what might be some of the factors would be interesting.
Meanwhile, just as you say, the starter makes perfectly fine bread, and the rise times aren't inordinately long. However, ZB and I have compared rise times in a couple of different ways, and it seems clear that her starter is quite a bit faster. If only for convenience, let alone that a more vigorous starter may make it easier to get certain recipes to work (I love SD focaccias, for example), I would find it interesting to get my starter to speed up to be like yours and ZB's.
Long and short of it, any clues would be appreciated, no matter how speculative.
Bill
I think the answer,
finally, came down to following Maggie Glezer's instruction to feed, leave the starter to crest, fall back and leave a while longer again before feeding again. This happened by mistake when my schedule got altered and I coudn't follow my normal regime so the refreshed starter got left 24 hours before I fed it again - and it promptly more than quadrupled!The Glezer starter I made used to take a long while to raise a loaf when it was new and gradually speeded up over the course of a few months, to a point that the actual dough would go from being mixed / lightly kneaded, to being ready to bake, in about 5 hours. So it was quite fast, despite the fact that the starter had never come near quadrupling (because I was always in a hurry to make it fit with my morning / evening / next morning schedule). This has been making bread that I really like for a few years now. But this last refreshed starter has behaved quiite quite differently and I really think that it is due solely to having been left much longer before the next refreshment - the little yeasties seem to become so much more active on a near starvation diet!I'll obviously try this again and if it is repeatable, then I'll report back.Andrew
Incredible, Andrew!
That is great news, Andrew. I know I had to work a bit at getting mine to do that when I created this starter in such frigid weather. But once it did - watch out! Then I took it down from the 20g:30g:50g (starter:water:flour) to 15g:30g:50g and it was quadrupling and sometimes would quintuple within the necessary time period, so I know what you're saying. It is exciting!
Recently I've been conferring with Bill (bwraith) about starters and he inspired me to try again to take it down to 10g:30g:50g (as Maggie had also told me to do). I had done that in the past but it had not quadrupled soon enough for me (I guess) and because I had such a very strong and active starter at 15g:30g:50g I would panic (hehe) and go back to using what I was comfortable with.
Now using the 10g:30g:50g it is quadrupling often in only 7 hours and I am very happy. Due to some other experiments I believe I did prove that my first starter is indeed quite a lot stronger made this way. Compared to my liquid starter (I had to try it) there is really no comparison in strength so far but it is still very new.
Maybe if you feel brave you'll start taking it down or just make another one, splitting yours, taking the starter amount down and experimenting. Maggie is right that you just keep refreshing until it meets that gold standard for firm starters, of quadrupling in 8 hours or less, and it works! I'm very happy to hear your good fortune with your starter as I know you have had it a long time.
Of course, I remember all about this, Andrew, as you were so kind and very helpful to me when I first started posting on this forum not all that long ago.
a tiny amount of starter works
actually! I found this out as a result of an "experiment" (or it could be error!!). I'd scraped the fed / active starter out of a small bowl into another bigger bowl to make the dough. Then, instead of washing up the scraped - out bowl, I absent mindedly added 30 grams water and 50 grams flour - stirred it - realised what I'd done - and thought well, might as well cover it in plastic and see what happens. Lo and behold - a very active extra starter! So it went into the fridge and is still going (I like to have two or three in case of disaster....)I'm fascinated to read of your contact with Maggie Glezer. Did you pick up many tips? And how many have you incorporated into your bread making?Andrew
Happy little accidents
I love those! Thanks to you I purchased Blessings of Bread which expands a bit on the sourdough info. I do what Glezer recommends in that book which is to refresh the starter at 30g:30g:50g and refrigerate it immediately upon mixing. That is for long-term refrigerator storage. I have two of those in my fridge.
She was extremely generous. I asked permission to post this informationn and her reply was how could she ever refuse when her books relied on the most generous information and sharing of those wonderful artisan bakers. Wow! She is something else, very humble, very kind and generous and passionate. I do love many other books and other bakers but I have found Glezer's methods, for me, taught me the most and are ones I'm the most comfortable with. Everyone has a different person or author that speaks to them.
One of the most important things she told me was to stop watching the clock for time to refresh but watch the starter. She said, as I probably said above, that she has killed many starters by over feeding them. She stressed to let it fully rise and begin to collapse and then wait up to 12 hours AFTER it had collapsed to feed it again. Once I tried that - and it was scary - my starter really took off. Before that I was not getting the quadruple - almost but not quite - and it showed me I had just plain fed it too often.
For instance. if I refreshed my starter and it quadrupled in 8 hours and then perhaps took 2 - 4 more hours to collapse I would wait another 12 hours (even more at times) which would mean I could refresh it once every 24 hours. It makes keeping a starter active and at room temperature a very easy proposition.
feeding too soon
has probably been my downfall - trying to make the starter / refeshed starter / dough fit MY time schedule too much. Yes, I;d read in "Blessing of Bread" that she'd killed starters by feeding too much, and to wait for the refreshed starter to "crest" but I must have a very forgiving starter (thankfully) because I have never waited for it to crest - simply followed my schedule, i.e. refresh starter in the morning, take 100g refreshed starter in the evening add 100 g water and 100 g flour, mix leave overnight and finsh dough next morning, shape proof and bake by about 5.00 pm that evening. It has worked week out, week in and I've not bothereed about quadrupling, cresting, falling - the bread has come out fine.This sudden increase in volume to quadrupling and more, I realize, is due to having allowed it to crest and wait for 10 hours before continuing. Just because my schedule got altered - and lo and behold ! I find she is right all along! Amazing!But I'm glad to find my starter will make good bread with a more haphazard regime too!
Thanks for your information on this ZB!Andrew
Wait for it,...., WAIT FOR IT...
ZB, Andrew,
Whew, maybe it's a breakthrough. My converted Glezer firm starter just rose by a full 4x in about 7 hours, and then filled the container at about 5.5x after about 9 hours. I had to stir it down. So, is it working? Mebbe so, mebbe not. Because, I changed containers. The new one is wider. I wonder if it can climb the sides more easily with a wider container? Still, it seems to be going much faster the last couple of feedings. I have been letting it run almost 24 hours each time, as long as it was convenient. The last feeding was actually a higher ratio, too - 10:36:60 (10.6x), but it still rose by 4x in about 7 hours (temp was about 78F, but it never rose by more than 3.5x, let alone in 7 hours, at the same temp before). I guess the proof will be to see how it does in a "race" with my liquid starter, which is still raising a 10:45:90 (10.5x) feeding by double in about 4.75 hours at around 78F.
So, when I get a chance, I'll do equal flour multiple tests and see which starter is faster these days.
Bill
Glezer fim starter starting to taste sweet
Hey firm starter comrades,
I recently purchased artisan baking and decided to build a starter as per maggies instructtions a few weeks ago. it had been very active and i'd gotten a few really tasty loaves out of it. I had been keeping it at room temp and refreshing it about every 12 hours, whenever it looked ready. This past week it's been ridiculously hot (95 in my kitchen all week) and it over ripened a few times aand its no longer sour but smells vaguely alcoholic and tastes a little sweet. Does anyone know how to rescue a starter in this state? Today i used a smaller portion of starter when i refreshed it, but i'm not sure that'll. any help would be appreciated.
thanks,
benji
Beenjamming - your starter
Benji, so sorry I did not see your post eariler. I’m not an expert on this by any means, in fact, I’ve only had my starter for about 6 1/2 months. Wish bwraith was around because he could answer this for you definitively. Hopefully he’ll be back online in a short time and we’ll all have answers to this question. I would venture to say however that if you get an alcoholic smell in your starter it is due to not being fed often enough. If you search the site on this subject I'm sure you will find your answer. I am sure it should be the same for a firm starter as for a batter type starter in that regard.
Hey Zola, don't sweat it.
Hey Zola, don't sweat it.
61/2 months is planty of expertise to me, haha. I've been baking bread for about a year now and had just ventured into sourdough for round 2 when this whole bit happened. I did some looking around on this site and that world wide web contraption and the general consenus was that I had not refreshed my starter enough, but damned if I could find an answer on how to get it back. For four days I halved the amount of fermented starter and used ice water when i refreshed it and it seemed to be on its way to recovery but then I fell asleep one night without feeding it and by the time I had gotten back to it, it was a soupy mess. I threw a good old-fashioned baker's tantrum and like that it was in the garbage. Luckily, I had gotten lazy one day and just stashed some starter in the fridge instead of cleaning out the container, so this week I'm going to try and revive it. Hopefully, things will go well.
benji
Feeding a firm starter
Hi Zolablue,
I've just converted a portion of one of my starters (from Dan Lepards book - 80% hydration) to become a firmer starter according to the feeding directions from Maggie Glezer you mentioned here (10:30:50). I didn't find the room temperature mentioned anywhere above, and for the summer we have something like 27C at night and 30C during the day, so for now it is just plain hot (and very humid - about 75%...). I'm afraid that if I leave it for the extra 12 hours after it collapes then it might actually be too long, so what I'd like to know is what does your starter look like when those 12 hours are up? Has it risen again? Is it looser than when you started out? Different smell? Any other signs to know when it really should be feed again? Thanks for any advise.
L_M
L_M - Temperature
L_M – I am not sure Glezer ever states the optimum temperature for keeping a starter at room temperature. I will have to look for that. I know that temperature does have an effect on which bacteria are growing and, again, bwraith is the one that has so much in his head about all this.
First, I would say to pay more attention to how your starter looks at a certain time rather than going by what time has elapsed. I was urged to just watch my starter and make sure that it quadruples in 8 hours or less to be optimum for baking. Then the main thing about refreshing is to make sure it has collapsed and then it is up to your own discretion as to when you think it works best to feed.
For me, my starter will generally quadruple in about 7 hours. My kitchen is generally ranging from 72°F – 75°F. I will check it at the 8-hour mark (unless in the wee hours) and then watch its behavior. It will respond a couple different ways depending on its recent feeding schedule. Sometimes it just stays domed or it may continue to grow a bit in volume. I have a habit of picking up the jar to check it after it has quadrupled and often when I do, that will cause it to begin to deflate. I have noticed sometimes it does start to expand again and this can happen several times.
Other times, it will grow to the necessary volume and stay at that point (especially if I leave my hands off it) and then will begin to collapse anywhere from one hour to several hours later. It just depends on temp, I think, and how long I had waited to refresh it prior times.
My starter always seems to smell the same except when I have not refreshed it for over 24 hours, which I don’t really like to do often. It then might have the slightest bit of a more sharp scent but even then it is really very sweet smelling and fragrant. I’m very comfortable with refreshing every 21 – 22 hours because, like you, I just would rather not have it have to work too hard to keep healthy.
As far as texture, it starts as the dough ball and as it expands it become very sticky and light and webbed. Very puffy and airy and gooey.
Please let me know if this helps you at all or if I have not answered you properly. Again, I’m still new at this but if I can help at all I’d like to try.
Maggie Glezer's firm starter
Hi Zolablue,
I've been using Maggie Glezer's firm starter regularly for over a year now, mostly for Pan de Horiadaki and various rye breads. I have two comments that may interest you.
First of all, there was a period when I was too 'free' with the measurements. Instead of 10g of starter I might take 20g for a refreshment. After some time neither the starter nor the breads were rising properly, although I never had a true failure with the bread. But when I was refreshing for 4 days without getting a quadrupling in volume at all, I tossed the whole thing and started over. Since then I am meticulous with my measurements.
Second, I never discard anything. I put the bits to be discarded into a separate container and either add them to another bread, or just wait until the container is full, and then I use my 'sourdough detritus' for a NYT-style loaf. The results are spectacular.
Best, bc
BC-That's a great idea
I never discard anything. I put the bits to be discarded into a separate container and either add them to another bread, or just wait until the container is full, and then I use my 'sourdough detritus' for a NYT-style loaf. The results are spectacular.
Now that is a great idea BC. After reading this thread earlier today I decided to use 250 grams of starter I would usually toss as the base for a pair of small boules (900 G total). The starter I used was my white sorta firm at about 95% fed clear. The dough rose to double in about 8 hours and I just baked them. I don't always have time to this so a small container would make sense to collect the excess and use it when I have time. Thanks!
Eric
discarded starter
Eric,
How did your boules turn out?
bc
bc - Pan de Horiadaki
It is so interesting that you mention this bread. It is a recipe I keep wanting to try having not made a single recipe from that book yet. How do you like it?
I’m afraid with just the two of us I could never use up all my discarded starter even with giving bread weekly to my neighbors. I do dump it into other recipes whenever I can though.
Out of curiosity, what is the largest volume of discarded starter you've used in a single recipe?
Pan de Horiadaki
This is a bread that we love. I almost always make the sourdough version. It does require a lot of oil in the pans, however. On occasions when I skimped with oiling the pans, I had real trouble getting the loaves out.
I should add that I live in Switzerland and make this bread with Halbweiss flour. This would be the equivalent of a French type 72, if one existed. I think that it bears some similarities to what Maggie Glezer describes as "high-extraction" flour.
What's the largest amount of discarded starter I have used? I don't always measure, but often I do. I have made a NYT-style pan di Terni, a Tuscan bread without salt, using 450g flour, 380g water, and 370g discarded starter, with a 12-15 hour fermentation.