The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

Baking for the Neighborhood?

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Baking for the Neighborhood?

Is there an interest to start a collective post (semi CB)  targeted towards baking in larger volumes for the neighborhood? Danni, has agreed to help, since for years she has been giving away lots of bread.

A loaf of bread won’t change the world, but what better way to let our neighbors know ”we care”.

What a great time to start sharing...

Whatta ya’ think?

Please reply back if this interest you.

Danny

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Danni gave me a good idea. From the book, “Artisan Bread in 5 Minutes”. The book recommends making a large dough that is retarded in bulk. Then day by day the dough can be removed as need and shaped and baked.

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

That method is good for commercial yeast.  But, I tried using that technique for sourdough, and had a couple problems.  It seems that by day 3, the whole batch turns into starter, becoming over-fermented and acidic.   Very acidic due to the long cold ferment.

Maybe that was due to the high percentage of home-milled whole wheat flour that I used. 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Dave, if that method was used the bread would probably be baked in 24 hours, 36 at most. The idea of retarding in bulk is appealing because of the storage space and bannetons.

Is this bake something you might be interested in doing?

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

transportation to friends is a problem during the quarantine.  Indianapolis is under an "essential travel only" order.   and everyone is so germ-phobic, I would think sharing non-prepackaged foods would be frowned on.  

The one family I'm friends with in my apartment complex is on a no-bread Paleo diet.    They liked my Steve Gamelin style loaves a few years ago. But now, they don't touch bread.

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

The New Healthy Bread in Five Minutes, you can refrigerate the dough for 5 days or freeze up to four weeks. And they use 100% Wholewheat.  So there has to be a way that this works. 

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

Yes, it works because they use commercial yeast.   And they "say" 7 days, but at some point before that it did over-ferment for me, using sourdough.  Maybe because I used home-milled flour, which is more active than store-bought WW.   I forget how far I took it using just commercial yeast.

Long cold ferments are also conducive to the sourdough bacteria that produce more acetic than lactic acid.

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

Gold Medal or Pillsbury flour in their book. And this particular recipe doesn’t have any yeast in it. It is designed for sourdough. Here are the ingredients! I am not copying the whole recipe due to copyright. 

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

I didn't read far enough into the book.  🤗  (I have both editons of "Healthy Bread in 5", the first edition of "Artisan Bread in 5", and "Artisan Pizza and Flatbread in 5.") 

Well, if they tested it, and it tested good for 5 days, good for them.  ( It is a couple days less than the 7 days mentioned for the commercial yeast formulas. )

Just goes to show the many vagaries of individual circumstances and ingredients as Doc Dough eloquently wrote about on Dan's recent thread about starters.

 

The Roadside Pie King's picture
The Roadside Pi...

I have froze my yeasted primarily white pizza dough for just over a month and the yeast was still viable. My package was marked as made 02/16/2020. I defrosted the last ball this passed Wednesday for a bake this pasted Friday.

foodforthought's picture
foodforthought

Plus I can confirm it works. I often make 2400 g of sourdough (no ADY except possibly in a poolish), bake one batard after 24 hour retard, then bake another on day 3 then another on day 5. Good spring and crumb in all cases. As far as I can tell, the older dough has more complex flavor. The one time I tried to go for a sixth day, I got a pretty flat loaf...as if overproofed, so 5 days is my limit. As today is day 4 I will be baking a second batard from a 1500 g batch of dough. 

Phil

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

I have a rectangular 6 & 9 quart Cambro. Any ideas how much dough (~15-20% whole grain) can be fermented in these?

I am thinking about using 5% pre-fermented flour and leaving the containers out on the counter (~71-72F) overnight. Put as of yet nothing has been finalized.

Dave, as far as transferring Covid, I am assured that my hands are much less likely to transfer virus (we stay home and don’t come in contact with others) than the many people from questionable environments that work for the commercial bakeries that produce the store bought bread. Our bread is as safe as any. We leave our bread at the door and call the neighbors to have them pick it up.

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

Of dough in my 6 liter Cambro and I have room to spare. The 5.5 lbs reaches the 2 liter mark before bulk fermenting.  So you could probably add another couple of pounds of dough in there and have it come near the top if you let it double. 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

I've always admired to your "bread benevolence" ! Now, landlocked at home, I have no excuse not to give it a try...

Maybe this will be the beginning of something new in my life. My wife and I are more fortunate than most.

Thanks for the inspiration, Danni!

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

I plan to make a test run this afternoon for the Neighbor's Bread ("Easy Peasy"). May have just found a great name for the proposed bread. I would appreciate others looking over the spreadsheet and making suggestions for improvement. I want to slow ferment the dough during the BF at room temp (71-72F) overnight. May retard the following AM or bake some or all of the dough in the morning after a room temp final proof.

When considering suggestions for efficiency and improvement, keep in mind I am fortunate to have a compact dedicated retarder (Thanks Maurizio!) that I can maintain any cool temperature desired.

This is intended to be as "easy peasy" bread.

The formula above baked up very well and had a pleasant sour flavor. The dough was BF at room temp (71-72F) for ~15 hours (remember the pre-ferment flour was 4%). Final proof went about 1hour @ 71F Nad 2.5hr @ 50F. 1 loaf baked in a large USA Pullman (1150g dough) and the other in a small USA pullman (750g dough). Next bake I will probably add 50-75g additional dough to each loaf pan.

Images of the bake can be SEEN HERE.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

I'm having a blast preparing the Neighbor's "Easy Peasy" Bread.

It doesn't have to be a masterpiece and Instagram will not be impressed. But this is for the neighborhood and I know they'll appreciate the gesture!

I'm using the flours and grains that I normally wouldn't choose. Instead of letting them go to waste, they'll feed the multitudes... well the neighbors. Don't like white wheat, so white wheat berries were milled. Don't care for Caputo "00" Americana Pizza flour, so.........

Throwing care to the wind. The levain was mixed with 57g starter, 46g water at 90F (don't know and don't care what the starter to feed ratio was), and 46g milled rye flour at 80F. The mixture registered 85.2F when placed into the proofer that was set to 86F. I say again, "throwing care to the wind".

I have been bound by an obsessive and analytical nature. But not today. I hope the bread turns out as well as this is making me feel.

This may turn out to be a great way to pass the time in seclusion.

Danny

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

You go, Dan! About time you let loose! 😜

Jay's picture
Jay

It'd be a great idea if I could get my hands on bread flour, but I just started what'll be my last sourdough (a half dozen baguettes) until I can get flour again, which I can't find locally online for love or money. :/

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Where are you located, Jay? Maybe someone will read this and have a suggestion. It is a shame that some hoard supplies in an emergency.

Are you willing to order online?

Jay's picture
Jay

I'm in the Sacramento area, about 40 miles out of the city right before the Sierra foothills. And I'm definitely willing to order online, but so far Amazon, King Arthur, and Bob's Red Mill are completely out of stock. I'm happy I found a 25lb bag of unbleached all purpose at Costco to see me through for cookies, cakes and pastry, but no bread flour to be had. 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Jay, I buy this flour in 50 pound sacks and it is my favorite flour. https://www.azurestandard.com/shop/product/food/flour/white/wheat/white-flour-morbread/11682?package=FL060

Also, Central Milling still has some flour in stock. I order Hard Red Spring Wheat berries from them yesterday.

I like Type 70. It is neck in neck with Morbread in my opinion.

https://centralmilling.com/product/high-extraction-bread-flour-organic-type-70-malted/

 

 

Jay's picture
Jay

Thank you SO MUCH, Danny (and everyone else). I just ordered a 50lb bag of central milling's type 70 and I could not possibly be happier. 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Jay, once you try the flour, let us know how you like it. 

In a set of comparative starter fermentation test the Type 70 appeared to be the best. The top 3 flours in the test were (from first to third) CM Type 70, CM ABC+, and Morbread. All three were equal in all respects, except the T70 consistently produced larger bubbles, seconded by ABC+. Any of those 3 flours are top shelf, IMO.

Do you have a plan for storage containers yet?

A food grade bucket of at least 6 gallons is a great size for 50 pounds of berries or flour. It is nice to weigh out 10 pounds and place them in 2.5 gallons zip locks bags. I have used both Gamma Lids and Life Latch lids. Both are very good. Here is a link to my last purchase. When buying 3 at a time the price is less than $20 a piece. AND they are 6.5 gallons.
https://www.bayteccontainers.com/65galsctoppa.html

If you have room in your freezer it is nice to store a few 2.5 gallons bags. Save those bags for last because they stay fresher longer.

Gamma Lids are another great option. And Lowes stocks them, but finding the >6 gallon food grade buckets have not been as easy.
https://www.lowes.com/pd/Encore-Plastics-12-in-White-Plastic-Bucket-Lid/50094688

rgreenberg2000's picture
rgreenberg2000

Central Milling has 50lb sacks of their Artisan Bakers Craft Plus available on their site.  At 11.5% protein, it's probably on the low side of the protein range for bread flour, but it'll work (I know this because AP @ 10% always works for me, so....) :)  I'm down near Stanford University, and shipping was $20 for the sack.

I ordered a sack a few days ago, and am just waiting on shipping info (they are a bit backed up/slow.)  I have about 15 lbs of AP on hand, so not in crisis mode yet (also have about 20lbs of hard red, 20lbs of Turkey Red, and a couple pounds each of Spelt and Rye....all berries.)

Keep looking, Jay, you'll find something!

R

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Ronnie, $20 shipping makes me jealous. It cost me $55 to get it to Louisiana!  I’ve used both ABC+ and Type 70. Both are very good for artisan breads. ABC+ is very popular.

For those looking, Morbread flour from Azure Standard is a quality flour. I have used it steadily for a couple of years now. I like it so much I pay the high shipping cost to have it delivered. It accepts very long and warm SD ferments.

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

Jay, see this comment I wrote with ideas to find 50 pound bags of flour.

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/comment/450483#comment-450483

with  restaurants shut down, their supply chain likely has inventory they'd like to unload.  That comment has tips on finding the distributors through a General Mills web site.  Get King Arthur, GM, and Caputo 00 through that channel... maybe.  (IE, if they distribute GM, they likely distribute other brands.) See the "Pro" section on the KA site to get the names of 50 lb bags that correspond to the retail varieties.  

Another idea is Indian groceries.  Just in case they haven't been "discovered" by the general public.  Patel Bros has some good flour, including refined durum, high extraction durum, and a sweet (ie, "sugary", ferments fast) and smooth whole wheat flour "Sharbati".  While maybe not ideal for sole use in bread dough, they'll stretch out your AP flour. They usually sell in 10 lb and 20 pound bags. some stores sell "re packs."

TerryD's picture
TerryD

I just posted the following info in a discussion about par-baking, then saw this discussion.  It occurred to me that storing pre-bakes might be a simpler solution than long-term dough storage for a baker (with freezer space) who would like to get the baking done in a single event, and still have flexible delivery options.

In his recent book “Living Bread” Dan Leader offers the following about par-baking and freezing:  He says that bakeries use this as a method to assure ongoing availability of a full line of bread styles.

 

1)  bake the loaf normally but shorten the baking time 5-8 minutes

2)  cool the loaf for 20 minutes

3)  put in freezer unwrapped for 2 hours

4)  wrap and return to freezer for storage

 

To finish, 15-20 minutes in a 350 oven “to defrost and finish baking at the same time.”  He adds that, “These breads taste perfectly fresh and delicious” 

 

Since I sometimes "bake 2 and freeze 1" I am going to try this on my next bake.

 

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

I think I’d like to try that some day. Especially when we have a family dinner. Nothing like warm bread. Let me know how it works for you. 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Terry, if you’ve ever eaten artisan bread from Whole Foods it was most probably par-baked at an off site bakery and trucked in to the local store. You can actually buy the frozen breads in store if you request them. The re-heated breads taste fresh baked in every way. Proof that par-baking is very viable.

The reason I know the above is I am a freak for their Seeduction Bread. I used to buy them frozen and store in me freezer. I live an hour away from WF.

If anyone has knocked off the WF Seeduction Bread, please post your formula and method! I’ve spent months attempting to make this bread without success.

As I think about par-baking, the thought comes to mind that when the re-heated breads are sliced warm they are not gummy. I imagine the crumb is fully cooked during the par-bake and the following cool down before freezing prevents this.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

First “Easy Peasy” Neighbor’s Bread turned out well. I followed THIS FORMULA and was happy with the results. First bake used flour and grain that I wouldn’t normally use. Caputo 00 Pizza Flour and Hard White Wheat. I plan tp clean out my old stock. The first “test batch” was 2000g, next bake may go 4 or 5000g. I am learning and getting bolder with larger volumes. The goal was a sandwich bread with a sour flavor. Both were achieved. 
 
As I consider the slices above, it seems likely that I over mixed the dough. I say this because the crumb is too white. Luckily the flavor of the bread was not “washed out” because of it. The long ferment probably saved the day in this case. Next time, much less mixing... Everyone lives life, but those aspiring to be wiser try to live and learn.
Dan

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

Par-baked and frozen pizza crusts for your neighbors,  to use up the rest of your Caputo Pizzeria Americana flour.

Ask them the diameter and thickness that they want.

 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

I’ve tried both of Caputo’s 00 Pizzeria & Americana flours. I am happier with KABF & KAAP (50/50). My thing is cracker crust and for me, it is dialed in. I no longer experiment with flours or formulas for pizza crust.

That is why it is being used for the Neighborhood Bakes. I am clearing out unwanted flour. Other that Caputo’s Semolina (Remacinata), I am not a big fan. The Caputo “Che flour has to go also. Need to simplify my selection.

King Arthur, Morbread, Central Milling, & Caputo Semolina tops my list.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

The first neighborhood bake was a test run of 2k. The bread turned out nice, so I am thinking about pushing the Ank to it’s limit and doing 5 kilos. If I run out of one flour, I’ll just mix in another.

Also, looks like a great time to try par-baking a few of those loaves.

For someone who always bakes with the “perfect loaf” as a goal, it is very nice to bake plain old sandwich bread using whatever is on hand for a change.

Our gal Danni is my inspiration. I have admired her charitable heart for years...

Danny

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

That so sweet of you! 😊

rgreenberg2000's picture
rgreenberg2000

I baked four loaves yesterday/today (2xApproachable, 2xMyUsualSourdough), and delivered three of them to neighbors today. 100% handled with gloved hands post bake, and sent off in my usual bread bags for people to dispose of if they so choose.  I've got another levain build going now, and will probably bake another four loaves tomorrow.  Amazing what kind of smile you get for a loaf of bread.

Keep going, Danny (and Danni!)  We need all the smiles we can get right now!

R

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

but like to bake?  

Try making a deal exchanging flour for bread.  Kilo for kilo.  Or offer to bake for those with too much flour but little experience or difficulty making bread.  Worth a try?    

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Lots of people have flour, but don’t bake bread. For those bakers without flour, this sounds like a plan.

Ronnie, it sounds like you are into this full bore. Today, I am going to try 5 kilos of dough. I’ve never gone higher than 2.5k before. How nice it would be to own 6 pullman pans. You could bake all loaves at one time. I think us, “artisan bakers” love free form loaves. But I bet most people would prefer square slices.

run4bread's picture
run4bread

LOL. Thank you! 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Stepped up to 5 Kilos, neighbors will be pleased. One huge pullman and 5 other loaves.

Never having attempted this much dough at once before, I can say that 5 kilos is about the limit for an Ankarsrum. The machine handles the kneading at any speed without a glitch, but one must take care to not let the dough climb out of the bowl. Not a big deal, but vigilance is a good idea with this much dough.

I used what I had. Caputo 00 Pizzeria (soft white wheat) and Caputo Chef flours. Hard White wheat (15%) and 5% milled whole rye. I upped the Percentage of Pre-fermented flour from 4 to 5% and added 0.5% Diastatic Malt. The fermentation was MUCH faster than the last batch. The dough climbed out of each bucket (not a good thing) during the RT overnight BF. I attribute this to the DM. The first Neighborhood Bake rose about 50% or so. This batch grew at least 3 times original size.

  
I am really diggin’ the covered Pullman Pans for sandwich bread!

The dough obviously over-proofed, but I think I learned a few valuable lessons.

  1. remove over-proofed dough from banneton and place into a bread pan to bake
  2. put overproofed dough in the freezer for 10-15 minutes (DT 35F)
  3. instead of regular deep score, draw designs lightly with a hand held double edged razor blade.


A lighter hand on the razor design below would have produced better results.
 

I got carried away when baking all of these loaves and FORGOT to par-bake a few of them. <disappointed>
Dan

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

If you didn't live in Hurricane Alley, I could move to your neighborhood, just to get some of that bread on a regular basis.

MTloaf's picture
MTloaf

I have been baking quite a few Approachable loaves and sourdough breads for friends and neighbors in these crazy times of no bread or flour on the shelves of the markets. I had plenty of grains to mill and enough flour and yeast before all this started and assume the supplies will be available when needed. I would guess the home milling of grains will become more than a novelty in the near future.

I am basically switching my baking to The Approachable loaf for now to use up the grains I have, rather than chasing down white flour, even though some of my neighbors who were used to getting artisan style breads from me were at first wondering why the ordinary looking pan loaf. They all like it after trying it. Some of my neighbors have been demanding to pay or barter so I guess that makes me a professional baker now.

Keep on baking  

Does anyone know if a loaf of bread in a clear plastic bag would be sterilized if it sat in the sunshine for a bit?

Next day edit

I looked it up. The virus has a two and one half minute half life in the sunshine

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

MT, I assume if you handled the baked loaves with well washed hands or latex gloves you’d be fine. The heat of the oven should kill any living thing, I think. 

Sonce my wife and I have no contact with others, I think we are safe. 

The loaves are left near the doors, and the neighbors are called to pick them up. Nobody is refusing ;-)

Beverly the Inspired's picture
Beverly the Inspired

...with a twist =}. All of my ingredients are gluten-free. What a fun way to introduce people to real breads & unique flours. Two neighbours have younger & school age kids and one has two adult students home from Uni.

Think I’ll make a double batch of bagels tomorrow & walk them across the street. Thanks for sharing a positive & uplifting idea!

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Beverly, glad you joined in.

Post images, we’re a curious lot...

Dan

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

I bake a couple Lemon Curd Braids today. Used the King Arthur formula, but I didn’t like the way it was written up. It wasn’t descriptive enough, IMO. Also the weights (hydration) seems way off. The small dough weight called for 2 teaspoons fcommercial yeast. I really dislike the fact that KA does not post the Baker’s Percentages and resorts to teaspoons, etc. Called them to discuss that some time back, but it seems those in charge are not going to change things.

Granddaughter made the lemon cure.

Wished I would have consulted our link on TFL for the formula and method.

 ¡

But they came out great!

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Patsy & I distributed 6 loaves of bread and 4 portions of Lemon Curd Bread. We left them at the door and called the neighbors to pick it up. <No contact what-so-ever>

  

Isn’t a time such as this, is a perfect time to let our friends and neighbors know “we care” and are thinking about them? The neighbors to my left just went into quarantine today. Our prayers are with them.

God’s Best to everyone. Stay safe and healthy...

Danny