The Fresh Loaf

A Community of Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts.

Sourdough bursting issues

thornzo's picture
thornzo

Sourdough bursting issues

Hey there! New baker here who is having a repeated problem. I've cooked around 8 or 10 loaves of sourdough now using 2 different recipes, and I've run into a consistent problem.

 

I get some pretty heavy bursting, as well as overall lighter coloring. The crumb is always very decent and overall everything tastes great. I feel its just lacking visually quite a bit.

 

I've some some initial research and I'm thinking it may be due to under-proving, poor scoring, or possibly a steaming issue.

 

Recipe I used to make 2 loaves:

800g AP or Bread flour

460g water

320g starter

15~g salt

 

I mix all together, knead until it passes the window pane test - then a 3 hours proof at ambient temp.

 

I form 2 loaves, and let rest an additional 3 hours in room temp.

 

I score the bread, and slide onto the preheated baking steele. I dump a decent amount of water onto a preheated baking tray and also throw a large ice cube in, and close the door. I bake for ~32 mins at ~450 (my oven is pretty old so it varies a bit).

 

Am I missing anything crucial here? Any help is greatly appreciated!

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

Can you post a photo of the undersides of the loaves, and the crumb?

Could you describe the timings, temps, procedures of feeding your starter for the last two feeds before mixing this dough?   (My second guess is too much starter.)

What's the hydration of your starter?  "Typical" is 100% hydration, but let's not assume, as 100% is not universal.

Have you successfully baked sourdough before?  If so, what has changed for these loaves?

Have you used an oven thermometer to check the temp of your oven?   (My first guess is that your oven runs way too hot.)

how much is a "decent amount" of water that you put into the pan?  1 cup, 2 cups, more?  There is a thing as too much.  (Third guess.)

Do you open the oven door for a few seconds during the bake to let steam out?

 What type of oven?  Gas, electric, convection?

 

thornzo's picture
thornzo

Feeding: I was feeding @ room temp daily for about 2 weeks, and this batch was made after 1 week of refrigeration. I took the starter out, let it adjust to room temperature, got some of that gray liquid off (there wasn't much), and fed it. After about 4 hours, it had grown a lot, and was nice and bubly and active, and i used it to make the bread. 

 

Hydration: 100% i assume. Equal parts flour & water each feeding. Is that what people mean by 100%?

 

It's a gas oven, and i did get a thermometer, so I know its around ~450 with the door closed.

 

Water: I'm putting in around 2 cups, + a large ice cube. Is this too much? I indeed have opened the door a few times, which lets some steam out.

 

Hopefully this helps the diagnosis!

 

Thank you so much

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

Your oven spring is great, so your overall formula is on the right track.

Are there any ingredients that you didn't mention?  There's a yellow tint on the crumb, or is that just an effect of lighting?

The way gas ovens are vented, it can be hard to steam them.  So 2 cups is not out of line.  Though you do want to vacate the steam at some point in the first half of the bake.  You don't want steam for the entire bake, gas or electric.

I have not baked bread in a gas oven, or even used one in decades.  So I'm going to defer to the gas-oven-bakers to help you from here on.  (I've seen some creative steaming work-arounds here on TFL.)

Your clear answers and good photos will certainly lead the gas oven experts to a good diagnosis and recommendations.   You've come to the right place.

--

Just thought of another question.  I noticed the underside crust is dark in the center, which brings attention to the baking steel.  How much clearance is there between the baking steel and the sides of the oven, in inches or cm, front, back, side and side?    That could be an issue if it is not a minimum 1.75" or 4.5 cm all around.  Any less clearance, and it interferes with heat _distribution_.

Ok, and just one more:  And how much distance is between the bottom of the oven and the baking steel?  Or, which rack positions are the steam pan and the steel on?  Xth of Y total positions,  counting from the bottom?  

thornzo's picture
thornzo

Well the oven spring being good is encouraging. 

I didn't use any other ingredients. I think the yellow tint is likely just from the light bulb in my kitchen. The only other thing that could have been in there was a minuscule amount of olive oil I had on my fingers to do the window pane test.

 

Good note about the baking steele clearance. I think I am in the clear with this. I'm around the 5cm clearance front & back, and more on the sides. 

 

My steele is on the middle rung - rung 3 of 5. It may be important to note that the bottom rung has the baking sheet I use to poor water on for the steaming. I never thought to mention this, but I am using room temperature water for steaming. Some people say to use hot/nearly boiling water, but I never thought it would matter, considering some people have success with just ice cubes.

 

I'll be sure and read up on gas oven techniques for sure, as I think that plays a big role in this.

 

I'm going to bake another loaf tomorrow, and try a bit of a longer second proof, as well as some of the tips you've pointed out here. I'll post my results!

 

Thanks for everything!

 

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

Thanks for mentioning the water.  If that's not the entire problem, it's at least part.  Especially 2 cups.

So yes, it needs to be right from the tea kettle, at a rolling boil.

For an electric oven, the standard is 1 cup, 240 ml.  I don't know if you should increase the amount over 1 cup due to it being a gas oven.

If you get this message in time, please try that, 240 ml water at a full boil.  It may not solve 100%, but you'll see what direction it takes you, better or worse.

If you can, let that be the only change, so it will be a true test of better-or-worse.  240 ml boiling water in the pan, as opposed to 2 cups room temp.

--

By the way, just for future reference, There are other ways to steam.  Baking one loaf at a time, do you have a steel or other oven-safe bowl to invert over the dough mass, that's big enough to cover the risen loaf, but also where the rim of the bowl is still fully on the baking steel?

 

thornzo's picture
thornzo

Ok I will give the boiling water a try, and try and make that the only variable. Do you know (roughly) the science why hot water might work better than cold - just for my understanding?

 

Also I watched a video which talked about the surface tension possibly being too tight during shaping, which makes sense, but I don't feel that my shaping was excessive. If I continue to have this issue after eliminating the hot/cold water issue, I'll try a few less turns during the shaping phase. 

 

Or possibly shaping - and letting it bench rest for 15-20, and shaping again. So many variables :D

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

Your crumb is pretty darn good. So please don't alter any ferment/shaping/proofing procedures.

I just don't know enough about gas ovens to give voice to what I "think" I see going on with your outer crust.  The expansion area of the scoring just doesn't look right, so that, __I think__, is a baking issue.  I really want a gas expert to give their opinion.  (And you've done great with pictures and words.) 

Maybe too hot? Maybe too much steam? Maybe it was __delayed__ steam?  (It took a few minutes for the 2 cups of room temp water to boil off. ) I just don't know.   But steam, time, and temp of the bake is what needs adjusted, I just don't know which direction.  But you want steam quickly, up front, and then for it to go away within 10-15-20 minutes.

check back here before baking tomorrow to see if Dan or any other gas oven expert chimes in.  I bet they can look at your loaves and immediately tell you the problem.

The other thing I wonder about is the quick bake time, 32 minutes.  That does seem short. So something is going on if your oven is truely at 450 F.    What is your Centigrade setting? Could there be an error in C/F conversion?

 

thornzo's picture
thornzo

 

The recipe I am using calls for 30-35 mins at 230c, and I've converted that to 446f. I do have an oven thermometer I picked up which is saying I'm right in there where I need to be. Should I try lowering the heat and baking a bit longer?'

 

I'm prepping the bread now for its first proof, so I will bake later today. I will start by changing the cool water to hot, at any rate, and see how that effects the bake.

 

Thank you!

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

You're good then.  Sometimes I ask weird questions.  Thanks for tolerating me.

I learned from my computer career, that often the solution to a problem was an over-looked "small thing" or incorrect assumption, and it wasn't dealt with, or explored, because it was so simple that people thought "Oh, it couldn't be that."

My very first tech support call back in the 70's was solved by asking if the "broken" CRT terminal was turned on.  It wasn't.

Many years later, when a home computer wouldn't turn on, I first suggested "check the power strip", and the customer resisted, saying it couldn't be that becasue it was behind the desk, and hadn't been disturbed.  I gently insisted that we need to "cover all the bases, doing the easiest things first."   That was it.  We concluded the cat could have got back there and stepped on the on/off switch.

Some other "detectives" I look up to here are DanAyo, Mini Oven, and mwilson. They've benn here much longer than I.  There are others too.  Often, they look at a loaf pic, or read a post, and key right in on what's happening.

thornzo's picture
thornzo

Working in IT, I've learned much the same. And to really figure out the problem was, I should just make small adjustments. I think the hot water might be the "small thing" that I overlooked in this situation.

 

Thank you very much for bearing with me and helping me figure this out. You've been massively helpful.

 

I got into baking just a few weeks before all the lockdown stuff started happening, and it's actually been a great hobby to have since. I've really become addicted to it, and hope to be more active here on TFL as well.

alan856's picture
alan856

I think the reason for having boiling water is the temperature differential is less.  212 deg is boiling which is half-way to the 500 deg of the oven.  When room temp water hits that hot pan it will be a huge shock to the water- and may just make a little steam explosion!  :-)

thornzo's picture
thornzo

That makes a lot of sense. I've been using hot water since then, and I can confirm the steam explosion :D

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Thornzo, assuming your levain is 100% hydration, your hydration is 64.6%. My first inclination would be to try raising that to 68%. If this is an option you’d like to explore add 493g water to your final dough instead of 460. I think you’ll like the results.

You wrote, “I mix all together, knead until it passes the window pane test - then a 3 hours proof at ambient temp.
I form 2 loaves, and let rest an additional 3 hours in room temp
.”
3 hours sounds like a long final proof, but that is very much temperature dependent.
Please let us know the approximate ambient temperature of the BF and the Final Proof.

You may want to try allowing to dough to rise ~50% (not much more) during the BF, then shaping and placing in the refrigerator for 8 hours up to over night. Then baking the dough straight from the frig (no warm up). Many of the bakers on TFL Use this method with excellent results.

Your problem is a good one to have. You’ve got great oven spring, which is great! I think the small increase in hydration will provide nice results. But, just a guess...

Danny

thornzo's picture
thornzo

Hey Danny - that is a great suggestion. I will try adjusting the hydration on the next batch - thank you for the calculation for that.

 

One slight change I did on this batch which will help hydration was that during kneading & shaping, I used water on my hands instead of flour to prevent sticking. Maybe the slight decrease of raw flour, and slight increase of water will help with the hydration increase.

 

I'll be baking shortly and let you both know how it goes. Thank you for all the help!

thornzo's picture
thornzo

Here's how the loaf turned out. The bottom & crumb are pretty much the same as the above pics, and the outside look has improved slightly. Using hot water definitely created a good deal more steam - I underestimated the difference there.

 

I'm still not getting that dark brown coloring I want, but I just picked up a 25lb bag of flour from my local market so I will continue test. I will play with the hydration % next and see where I land.

 

It could also just come down to an oven issue, and I may need to look at baking it in an enclosed dish like a dutch oven or large pyrex.

 

That being said, this was probably the best tasting loaf to date, but in flavor and texture.

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

I like how the expansion area (where it was scored) is now rougher, whereas before it was smooth.  I think that's  a sign of movement in the right direction.

I concur with Dan's suggestion of increasing the hydration, and to let that be the one change for the next loaf. (But maybe increase the boiling water addition to 1.5 cups, 360 ml.)

(Don't go out and buy a dutch oven yet.)

thornzo's picture
thornzo

Will do! Thanks again.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

It would be interesting to compare the results with an electric oven. I think the gas oven is having an affect. Do you have a neighbor that you’d feel comfortable baking your bread in their electric oven? Maybe give them the bread...

If it is the gas oven, a closed cooking vessels will solve your problem. 

The top of your loaf looks dry to me. I don’t  get that with an electric oven.

thornzo's picture
thornzo

Interesting. I think the oven does play a big factor. Its my first time using a gas oven as well. I prefer a gas stovetop for sure, but the gas oven is a different beast than what I am used to. 

 

I'll reach out to some nearby friends to see if they have an electric oven I can do this same bake in. Good idea!

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

GREAT! I am very interested in seeing your comparative results.

I’ll be standing by...

thornzo's picture
thornzo

Hey all, just circling back here to show my progress. 

Over the past week or two I tried a number of different variations, but struggled to get that really crisp crust with the rich color we all look for. As well as that almost caramelized texture which is still crackling when you pull it out of the oven. I tried different hydration levels, baking times, steam amount, to no avail.

 

Finally I found a ceramic dutch oven used for $5 from a local kitchen, and viola, I got the color I wanted straight away.

 

First attempt:

 

Second attempt:

 

I gave all 3 loaves away and got a few pics back of the crumb and its just like the ones I posted before, but now with a great crust.

 

I changed the baking time to 25 mins in the covered dutch oven @ 475, and an additional 25-30 mins at 450 uncovered. 

 

Next I'll be playing around with my scoring and final bake times/temps to get those iconic "ears".

 

Thanks for all your help with this! Interested to know your thoughts!

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

EXCELLENT looking loaves!

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Successful outcomes are great for the baker and also for those interested parties that got involved.

Thanks for posting! The loaves are beautiful.