The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

Tartine bread in a combi oven

soushemi's picture
soushemi

Tartine bread in a combi oven

Has anyone figured out how to replicate a dutch oven bake using a combi oven. I'm following the tartine recipe more or less. 950 gram loaves, 72% hydration. 

The oven is just really missing the mark and I'm sure I've seen it done before

julie99nl's picture
julie99nl

Is a combi oven a microwave that can also has an oven program?

barryvabeach's picture
barryvabeach

A combi is an oven that can bake with steam, or with convectional dry heat - usually convection, or a combination of both.   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTMuMIRl-2o   https://www.bosch-home.com/us/productslist/cooking-baking/wall-ovens/steamovensus/HSLP451UC  I have played around with mine without much success for bread, though I have a different model. 

 

 

barryvabeach's picture
barryvabeach

I am searching through prior posts right now to see what suggestions were made.  Here is one I posted from a Houzz poster Chanop

 

  1. Preheat in conventional heat 225˚C, 1 hour
  2. Preheat in combi conventional heat 225˚C, 100% humidity, 10 minutes
  3. Insert the dough
  4. Bake in combi conventional heat 225˚C, 100% humidity, 10 minutes
  5. Bake in combi conventional heat 225˚C, 0% humidity, 10 minutes
  6. Bake in combi fan plus 225˚C, 0% humidity until done.
yozzause's picture
yozzause

I have used  a chefs combi oven with great success, the first time by necessity when the old electric deck oven  decided it didn't want to do its thing  and many times after because of its fast heat up time and the ability to inject water /steam. i found by heating in excess of the baking temperature that i was going to require for baking  helped to counter the cooling effect that water spray inevitably  caused. I also shut that off as soon as the loaf expansion or spring had ceased making sure that the temp gauge was set correctly for the rest of the bake. The old oven was replaced with 2 x combi ovens that were designed for Bakers That used the same water drip injection that also worked really well. There are some old posts in blogs about ovens such as Cadco and Unox , I was wanting to post some pictures but cant find them at the moment. Varda is one of the bloggers that was party to that discussion as well as myself. The application of steam needs to be for a short fairly short duration, as you don't want a boiled pudding.

Kind regards Derek   

barryvabeach's picture
barryvabeach

Derek,  as I said above, most combi's have a steam only  ( up to 100 C - 212 F ) a convection setting usually up to 440 F, and a combi setting.   Did you preheat at the combi setting -  if so, were you using a stone or pizza steel?  When you say you shut that off, do you mean you switched from combi mode to regular convection - if so ,  was that 5 minutes into the bake - or 10 or much sooner.  

I actually used my combi last night for a panned bread, and it came out fine, but I have not had much luck using a steel or a stone  ( if I preheat at 100% steam, the bread sticks to it ) . 

yozzause's picture
yozzause

 The large chefs combi just had a dial with a symbol for  steaming which was actually feeding water  into a driptube that  was at the centre of the fan apparatus that  brought the heat from electric elements this quickly turns to a mass of steam. The temperature could be set on another control. Once the steaming function button was cancelled the drip feed stopped. With the  Unox that was set up for bakers use and called a baker top, the oven was able to be heated very quickly around 1 degree a second. Again the steam was generated by drip tubes to the centre of fans the amount could be varied with a digital controller, i did find that it was best to have the heat turned up higher as the water entering did have a cooling effect on the chamber temperature. This control was able to operated at anytime, there was also a control for extracting moisture  that was also digital and helped with getting a crisper crust toward the end of the bake. The oven had adjustable shelving that   could be  removed and accepted full size baking sheets. There were no stones  or steels to bake on,just racks and trays 

Ii was able to find an old article that shows the ovens  these are quite modern and fun to work with. 

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/34388/50-wholemeal-feta-and-olives-sd

kind regards Derek

 

barryvabeach's picture
barryvabeach

Derek, thanks,  my combi oven, and I think most of the home combi's have a boiler, so the water is introduced as steam.  I know that some other ovens, like some models of the Moffat Turbofan, have a button marked steam but do exactly what you describe, introduce cold water.   I have a small Cadco which is also a Unox, and it has convection heating, but no bottom element.  I fitted it with an intake to get steam from a hand held steamer, but was never very happy with the results - I think the high volume of air from the convection fan sort of offset the steam. 

I may play with it more to see what I can figure out.  Thanks again for your tips.  

MarkWT's picture
MarkWT

I have a Miele combi-steam oven that I use for baking Tartine-esque pan loaves. My current favorite is 70% bread flour, 15% white whole wheat, and 15% whole rye. After proofing my loaves overnight in a refrigerator, I normally do the following process to bake them.

1. Proof for 30 minutes - 90 degrees F at 100% steam.

2. Bake for 25 minutes - 435 degrees F at 100% steam.

3. Bake for 20 minutes - 435 degrees F at 0% steam.

Here's the usual result. 

MarkWT's picture
MarkWT

My wife actually prefers a less chewy bread, so often I'll make the same recipe, but bake somewhat cooler. When I do this, I'll do the final proof as before. Then:

Bake at 400 degrees F for 20 minutes at 100% steam and finish at 375 for 20-25 minutes with no steam. Loaf looks like this.

barryvabeach's picture
barryvabeach

Mark,  I assume you are baking in a pan, not on a stone? 

MarkWT's picture
MarkWT

These are pan loaves. Sorry I should have made that clear in my postings. I baked these two loaves in 9x5 pans.

barryvabeach's picture
barryvabeach

Mark, thanks, that was my guess since you did not do a preheat of the oven to preheat the stone.  That is one of the things I struggled with.  I tried preheating a pizza steel in the combi at 100 % steam at 2121 F -  it got steamy, but then the loaf stuck to it.  

MarkWT's picture
MarkWT

I have used a baking steel in my combi, but have pre-heated the steel for about an hour at either 350 degrees or more often at 435 degrees (since that's the highest temp my oven will go to) before adding steam and then my loaf. If I was going to put the loaf in the oven at 212 degrees, I'd use parchment paper under the loaf and probably use a pizza peel to slide it in. 

barryvabeach's picture
barryvabeach

Mark, thanks for the suggestion,  I tried it and had my best result so far in a combi.

I preheated the steel on my gas range, and at the same time turned the combi oven on to full steam 212F.  4 to 5 minutes later, the steel was above 400 and the combi was looking very steamy inside.  I put the parchment paper on my peel, loaded the loaf , scored it, though very poorly, then put it on the steel, and using a very good set of gloves, loaded the steel and loaf into the combi, and turned it to combi mode, 440.   After about 5 minutes, I left it in combi mode, but turned off the steam , which is a setting on my combi.  5 minutes later, I opened the oven, took the loaf off the parchment paper, and loaded it back on the steel.  Baked it for another 10 minutes, then turned the temperature down.--

Very pleased with the results.  It is 100% white whole wheat, home milled,  with sourdough starter.   I would say that other than the scoring, this came out as well or better than the Fourneau  oven, which has been the best for me before this attempt. 

yupitree's picture
yupitree

I am planning to try that (Bosch benchmark) and report. it makes sense that the surface needs to be dry and steam injection (in our model, switching from Convection to steam Convection) takes place when the loaf hits the hot stone/steel. (BTW, what stone are you using? I have Fibrement for the large oven and havent ordered custom for the Convo)

barryvabeach's picture
barryvabeach

I did try a stone at first, but that presented issues for me.  I didn't feel comfortable preheating a stone on a range top burner, though I guess it could be done.  I thought the better idea was to preheat a steel on a stove top - it is one of those cast iron griddles with ridges on one side and a flat side on the other, and it heats up to 450 on the burner in a few minutes.   I tried again tonight, 3 minute preheat of the oven on steam only 212F, then put the loaf on the preheated steel, then using good gloves, put the whole package in the oven , ran on steam only 1 minute at 212 F ,  then switched to combi at 440 for 9 minutes, then opened the door to vent the steam ( though I didn't feel any moisture ) and switched to straight convection for the rest of the cook.  Not very impressed with the oven spring, though I thought the texture looked pretty cool, nice and bubbly.   

When I first got the combi I did try preheating a stone in combi mode to 440 F,  but in combi, you don't see any steam, and  I thought that it did not get all that moist in the oven.  Your combi may work differently.

BTW,  I did try last week and went for a 5 min preheat at full steam 212, then 3 or 4 minutes at full steam 212 once I loaded the loaf, then combi for 9 minutes, then switched to convection - and decided it was too much steam, the bread did not get much oven spring and was very pale.

I also found out that when I do batards,  the reason that one end gets much more oven spring than the other, in addition to my poor scoring, is that one end is near to the fan at the back of the oven, and I think it dries out that end faster .  I did two tests in a row, and got the same results, so I think that is the issue.   Tonight I did a boule since that sat much further away from the fan, and didn't see that issue. 

 

Let me know your results with the Bosch.   I just picked up a used Thermador, and will see how that one does.