Sourdough starter is an impossibility prove me wrong
For months and months, I've been trying to cultivate a sourdough starter.
I've followed the directions. Feed once daily, 2tbsp water, same weight flour. But each day the activity kept going down. Now the activity is always just minimal. Very small bubbles, if I can find them.
I've tried multiple feedings per day, yes spaced out. Twice! Thrice!
I've tried getting a water filter to use filtered water, no change.
I've tried boiling and cooling the tap water to sanitise it, no change.
I've tried keeping it warm by monitoring it with a milk thermometer.
I've tried sticking it in the oven for a bit to get it to 40.
I've tried wrapping it in towels.
I have no idea what's going on with it, I'm getting sick of it, doing all this stuff and nothing working.
Making a sourdough starter is an impossibility.
I'm having trouble too.. What kind of flour are you feeding it?
Your starter doesn’t need to be fed so often, unless it’s very hot where you live.
Try and leave it be for a few days, feed it rye flour and mineral water, keep it in a warm (around 21C) place and see what happens. Throw away the clock and go for smell and taste: if it smells sweet like yogurt you are on the right way, if it smells vinegary it’s hungry, if it tastes sweet you are good to use it.
it might help follow some rough schedule from bakers more experienced than me!
In an effort to jump start your starter you increased the feeds when you should have been doing the opposite.
After the initial burst of activity it is normal for a starter to go quiet. This is when it'll benefit from skipping a feed or two or even three. This is the stage where your starter is becoming acidic to support the yeasts and bacteria. Overfeeding at this stage slows down, or even prevents, this crucial stage from happening as discarding with feeding lots of fresh flour and water is basically throwing away the baby with the bathwater plus it's preventing it from becoming acidic. When all goes quiet just keep warm and stir every now and again. When the starter begins to show signs of life once again then start the feeds once more but not too much nor too regularly. Say 1:1:1 every 24 hours. After it begins to show more activity then you start to increase the feeds to match.
AP. The cheap stuff at Aldi.
Aldis sells bleached white flour- starters often don't do well with that. Switch to an unbleached Gold Medal ,Pillsbury, Dakota Maid or other AP flour. If you can afford to do so, buy a small bag of Hodgson Mill stone ground rye flour and add a tablespoon or so to the starter. Rye has sugars immediately available and yeast activity can explode.
Water- buy some bottled spring water to use. Starters like the minerals.
PLANNED NEGLECT
Start with just a few tablespoons of flour (maybe 1 tbsp. unbl.AP and 1 tbsp. stoneground rye) in a pint jar with a lid. Always use clean hands and clean utensils. Add enough spring water to make a pancake batter consistency. Put the lid on and leave the jar on the counter or in a location that is ideally 80F. The top of the refrig. works well as does inside the microwave with the door open so the light is on. Stir 3-4 times a day for a few days. Do NOT FEED. If your ambient temperature is normally much higher than 80F, you may need to find a slightly cooler location.
Rather than re-write everything, just look at THIS post that was written almost at the same time as yours.
Have fun!
I tried a ton of stuff, I wasn't sure why the activity was going down every day.
I tried feeding it more after watching a ton of videos on it online.
It needs to become acidic? And too much feeding prevents that?
Ok, I'll try just leaving it for a while, stiring it so it doesn't get a hard skin, and getting it back to a good temperature.
Say, where did you guys find out about this transition period? I've been searching like mad and found nothing.
Also, what IS a good temperature for yeast? Or, better yet, yeast in THIS stage? It's 40 isn't it?
40C is way too hot, IMO. Shoot for 25-28C. Temperature makes a huge difference for starters and also dough fermentation. When it comes to importance for bread baking, temperature and time are at the top of the list.
HTH
Dan
Plus get some wholegrain rye flour or whole wheat flour and add in a teaspoon or two (plus a little water if it gets too thick) give it a good stir then forget about it till you see it 'wake up'.
This is time for you to take a break and not stress over it while your starter does all the hard work.
That's great news. I have it sitting in a towel ring to keep it warm, and it stays at about 30c. I thought that would be too cold.
It may not make a difference, but if you can try to stay at or below 28C. I don’t think 30C is a deal killer, but just to be safe...
Whenever dealing with starters and bread dough, keep your temperatures in mind. Ideas for warmth - hot water heater closet, oven (turned off) with light left on, for short fermentations a microwave (turned off) with a cup of boiling water placed inside. The MV will stay warm and provide humidity. Great for fermenting dough, but not as good for starters since they ferment for many hours.
Dan
This should help... stay with it, well worth the effort!
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/233/wild-yeast-sourdough-starter
I don't have that kind of money to spend. What does it do? Why add that in?
It goes down below 30c at night. I wake up and find it at about 28c. I've not seen it go above 30c. Seems like it might be an ok temperature.
What did you mean by fermenting? You don't want the yeast to ferment, like pickles? Why not?
What's MV?
I've likewise not had any luck after 10+ efforts using just water (or pineapple juice) and flour. I have also tried a big list of increasingly esoteric things looking for the magic variable (size/quantity, type of vessel, bottled/distilled water, organic flours, controlled temperature, type of dish detergent, dishwasher vs. hand-washing utensils, etc.) to no avail.
I figured patience was the hidden ingredient, but even that didn't pan out.
One of my coworkers, who hadn't used sourdough before, got a starter going with chlorinated tap water and regular bread flour, so I know it's possible. I tested his starter and it worked great.
I seem to get a bit farther than you, where the culture obviously has yeast (distinct yeast smell for a day or two) and souring bacteria, but it just doesn't actually rise. That is especially true after moving to white flour. I do see rise when using whole grain flours. It doesn't ever seem to attain the right smell, either, no matter how long I keep repeating the feedings (up to a month, one time).
Don't despair! What has worked for me:
Location can make a big difference.
Anyway, if you can't get a wild sourdough going, opt for a purchased tame one. Or stick to commercial yeast or make yeast water. There are a lot of people (myself included) using yeasted doughs made with commercial yeast. They present less problems are widespread, and tend to fit better into their recipes. They also require less patience and are speedy. I have instant dry and fresh yeast at the moment.
Make half a dough recipe with a pinch of instant yeast. Let it ferment slowly for a few hours at room temp then in the fridge for a few days. Add the rest of the recipe when you are ready and see what flavours you have encouraged. Pinch off some of the dough before shaping the loaf and use it instead of yeast into the next half recipe.
If left at room temp and ignored for a week, you will have transitioned from a biga to a sourdough without realizing it. :)
I don't think you anyone sells flour with bleaching agents here anymore. I just checked the flour from Aldi, it doesn't have bleaching agents in it. What happens if the bleaching agents are added to a starter?
Ok, I'll try neglecting it for a while. After reading your post, I'm worried that I got rid of a lot of "developing yeast." Would that be accurate? I've tried using them many times, for different things.
Yeah, I started off with just water, and didn't start with juice for the first one. It picked up just fine, I didn't think it would be a problem. What about boosting the acidity level using a little bit of vinegar?
What do you mean by "start a fermentation"? Do you mean, start again? From scratch? Oh man, I've spent so long trying to get this one to work, I really don't want to start again.
Yes, it's a different way to start the process. If you simply mix those three ingredients in a bowl and cover, the mix will start to ferment in two days or so, depending on the ambient temperature. It's just something to keep in mind if you can't fix your current attempt with the advice others are giving here.
Australia.
The land of swim between the flags or you die, sharks in the canals, sub-par internet, and the good beaches tax.
Here in Austria it is ski between... or die. We have one kangaroo, Pauli, by the way. Last seen near a corn field not too far away. Suspected "breakout" from Bayern captivity. Maybe getting an early jump on avoiding Octoberfest. Water...divers, a steady supply of bodies from diving too deep in Attersee looking for something interesting and freezing up air supply line. No one has yet found what's supposed to be so interesting down there. Lakes have been their warmest this year. Beautiful wandering temperatures now. Ski lifts do run in the Summer into early fall for walkers.
Alright, which city? Perhaps a member with a starter lives nearby. ???
Avoid it? Why would anyone avoid Oktoberfest? It's basically a dreamland.
Is what I have salvageable at all?
I'm not entirely sure what's going on with it. But from other people's posts: It sounds like, the early stages of a yeast colony are juvenile yeasts. And at some point, they need to grow into adult yeasts, by becoming more acidic? And that more feeding prevented the acidity increase via dilution. And that discarding reduced their numbers, thus making them more vulnerable to rogue bacteria.
Is that close?
Except it's the flour water mix that needs to become acidic to support the yeasts and bacteria. Discarding too much too soon and adding fresh flour slows down this process. Once your starter is viable then a small amount will inoculate a large feed.
If you're using white flour then it's missing all the good stuff basically. Not impossible but wholegrain will be better. If the flour is bleached then that won't be good at all hence adding in some wholegrain either way will be a good idea.
"Rogue" bacteria happens within the first few days and are quick off the mark. That's why you'll typically see a lot of activity quite quickly but then it goes quiet. While these bacteria are rogue it's an essential process because they play a part in turning the mix acidic and they kill themselves off in the process. Did you experience this?
Edit: I see you did experience some activity within the first few days. This tells me you were in the right track but the quiet period threw you off and to off set this you went into feed overdrive to "wake the yeasts up" but probably turned the starter into fresh flour and water in the process. I stick with adding some wholegrain and then leaving alone.
Ok, so the yeasts turn the colony itself into something more accommodating, more acidic, by killing the rogues?
If they need an acidic colony, how about adding a little bit of vinegar? Would that help? Or does it have to be via killing rogues?
And that every time I was discarding/using and feeding was basically like going back to the start of a queue?
Yeah, that's about right. I kept feeding it once a day for months and months. And the activity kept going down. So I did a ton of searches on it, watched a ton of videos on it, to find out what's going on. The advice I got was to keep it warm, and to feed it, even more, 3 times a day in fact.
I'm a bit worried about spending a ton of money just on expensive flours. I've heard that, whatever you give the yeasts, they'll become used to eating, and will then expect to be fed that, and won't do so well if you stop feeding them what they expect. How hard is it to switch back over to plain AP?
I can't actually get bleaching agents. But what does it do? Would it be harmful to the yeasts?
The rogues kill themselves off by making the starter more acidic. It's a fascinating process.
Either leave the starter alone for now and see what happens in the next few days or you can start a new one. You don't need a lot of flour to get a starter going. Done right you can by a kilogram of flour. Use half to make the starter and the other half to make a loaf of bread.
Can you buy wholewheat? It doesn't have to be rye. Bleaching just kills everything off.
Vinegar is too strong. Pineapple juice is the best bet and there is a popular way of lowering the PH level by feeding the starter pineapple juice for the first 3 days made famous by Debra Wink our resident microbiologist. Look up the pineapple juice method. But you're long last that now unless you wish to try again.
Ok, so the yeasts turn the colony itself into something more accommodating, more acidic, by killing the rogues?
If they need an acidic colony, how about adding a little bit of vinegar? Would that help? Or does it have to be via killing rogues?
And that every time I was discarding/using and feeding was basically like going back to the start of a queue?
Yeah, that's about right. I kept feeding it once a day for months and months. And the activity kept going down. So I did a ton of searches on it, watched a ton of videos on it, to find out what's going on. The advice I got was to keep it warm, and to feed it, even more, 3 times a day in fact.
I'm a bit worried about spending a ton of money just on expensive flours. I've heard that, whatever you give the yeasts, they'll become used to eating, and will then expect to be fed that, and won't do so well if you stop feeding them what they expect. How hard is it to switch back over to plain AP?
I can't actually get bleaching agents. But what does it do? Would it be harmful to the yeasts?
How do I delete or edit posts?
floydm@thefreshloaf.com and ask him to enable your account for editing and private messages.
You can delete a topic you've started but you can't delete a post. You can edit.
Hang on. It's the rogues that turn the colony into an acidic environment? Which ends up killing the rogues? Why would they do something that kills them?
Stupid is as stupid does :)
I think it's because they belch off gas which turns the mixture acidic. They can't help it. But for a scientific explanation then you'll need to ask Debra Wink. Once your messages are working then you can message her through her profile.
That sounds like it could be similar to CO2 poisoning. Where, if we were trapped in an air-tight environment, eventually we would die from the CO2 that we exhale.
They can't help but give off CO2 but they're in a medium of flour and and water. The yeasts and good bacteria don't need oxygen to live and are quite at home in this acidic environment.
When you mix up flour and water, a whole bunch of different organisms are present (including the ones from your hands!) Some are active right away and some (like yeasts) are in spore (seed) form and will come out of their shell to grow and reproduce when the environment is favorable- IOW when there is food, moisture and comfy temperature. The predominant organisms are lactobacillus and yeasts. Lactos grow a population faster than yeast and they are the ones that start producing an acid environment so the nasty bacteria can't grow. Yeasts like an acid environment and enjoy the same environment as lactobacillus so if lactos are comfortable, so are yeast. But yeast grow slower. That is why the culture initially is bubbly (from the lactobacillus) and acidic. After the acidity starts overwhelming the lactobacillus (they just keep producing acid), the lactobacillus population decreases but doesn't totally die off and the culture looks quiet but now the yeast are gaining in population. When yeast populations are high enough, the starter becomes more active. Eventually the starter comes into balance with lactos and yeasts and soon you have a starter with enough yeast to raise bread and enough lacto activity to keep the yeast happy.
As for how much starter to make, I start with only 2-3 tablespoons of flour! There is no need to have a big starter volume, especially at the beginning. This starts a seed culture and when it becomes balanced, you start building a bigger volume to make a loaf or two. It just takes a day to do that. Then you can keep as big or small a starter amount as you can afford to feed/use.
See, I know the basic principles. I actually think of it more like a colony, similar to the ones in sci-fi shows. Where they set up a home on an alien planet and need all the basics.
The problem is that there's very little information on what's actually going on in there, and what is actually needed. All the sites you visit and all the videos you watch, they just say "do this" without actually telling you why or what's going on. So you have to try and extrapolate.
I had no idea that it was the lactos making the colony acidic, or that yeasts even needed an acidic environment.
That it lives in conjunction with a good culture makes sense. It works the same way for making cheese. You basically use good cultures to fend off rogues, so that you can do a controlled souring of the milk.
What happens to the yeast population if the lactos dominate the colony though?
Is it possible that I've inadvertently reduced the yeasts to nothing?
The concepts of sourdough are very similar to cheesemaking-you want certain bacteria/yeasts to dominate so that when the milk becomes acidic(sours) the chosen bacteria/yeast culture dominates to add its unique flavor and characteristics to the final cheese product. Every cheese culture has its unique acid and temperature requirements to thrive and the cheesemaker tried to make sure it gets what it needs to develop that particular cheese. If you actually tested a cheese culture you would find other bacteria/yeasts but they would be very much in the minority otherwise they would dominate the product outcome and "ruin" the cheese. Or perhaps make an unexpected and unique cheese. Chees probably got its start that way.
Yeasts are very adaptable. They don't require an acidic environment but do very well in it, especially since it kills off their competitors. The overload of information and the seemingly contradictory "do this" instructions exist and can ALL be successful simply because yeasts are so hardy. It almost doesn't matter what you do in their wide range of survivable needs, they will survive.
Lactobacillus can become dominant and that is probably what is happening in your starter culture. They tend to give a bubbly appearance but they don't last long enough to raise bread consistently.
Yeast is not captured from the air. It is actually present on the wheat grains. Everything in nature tends to hang out where the food source is-even yeasts. When the grain is ground into flour, the yeast spores goes through the process and ends up in the flour. There is more yeast spore present on whole grain since that flour includes the outer coat where the yeast hangs out naturally. That is why whole grain flour (even when a little bit is added) really perks up a culture. You just added a whole bunch more yeast "seeds" to the garden plot.
It is possible to reduce your yeast population by discarding half and diluting the population further by adding a feeding. If you have 10 diners at your dining table, don't kick out half and put out twice as much food. It will all go to waste. Rather, make your diners comfortable with the right environment and good food and soon the yeastie beasties will be making more friends to dine at your table. The conversation "bubbles" and THEN more food is needed. After a little more time, the old food and debris needs to be cleared and new food presented. Just an analogy but it helps understand the concept.
Try to replicate ideal circumstances for yeast growth-temp. sounds like an issue. 27-29C is good. 40C sounds too warm. Keep trying.
Regards
http://www.azeliaskitchen.net/life-cycle-of-the-sourdough-starter-part-i/
Mini, Azelia’s article is outstanding. She has been able to breakdown Debra’s scientific explanation into something that is more mentally digestible to folks like me :-)
I sent the link to a number of my baking friends. I’ve read this before, but with a memory like mine, a refresher is a great thing. For those that are inquisitive, this information is very informative.
Azelia’s part 2 is also very informative. http://www.azeliaskitchen.net/life-cycle-of-a-sourdough-starter-part-ii/
Thanks for the reading assignment ;-)
Danny
refreshing what we have read before is really good, because we acquire more understanding as we go and more of it makes sense each time.
thank you Mini and Dan
Leslie