pre-mix, 2 hours autolyse and a major failure (edited for better understanding)
Dan warned me that things here were a little confusing, so I'll try to make everything clearer.
My goal with this experiment was to only verify the differences between a long autolyse (Trevor's pre-mix) and a reasonable and common 2-hour autolyse. What differences? Elasticity, ease in handling, developing and obvious the final bread. I would like to make it clear that my idea with this "experiment" is not to point out which method is better, I do not have the knowledge and the experience to do so. This is a personal experiment that the results serve my reality, considering the environment, flour and all other influencing factors.
My spreadsheet is pretty confusing, maybe it just makes sense to me, so I deleted it and I'll try to explain how things were done, starting at zero time, which would be the time when I pre-mix.
These breads were my usual recipe, 1000g dough, 100% white flour, 65.03% water, 2.19% salt, 18.58% levain (100% hydration). Final hydration, 68%. Temperature in my refrigerator was about 3 ° C and in my kitchen during the day ranged between 20-24 ° C. At no stage did I use the oven with the light on.
Time 00:00
Pre-mix (flour, ice water and salt), mixed and put in the refrigerator which was approximately 2-3 ° C.
Time 03:00
I took some of my starter out of the refrigerator and fed it.
The levain was made in 3 feeds.
1st feed - 10g of my starter that is in the refrigerator with 66% hydration, 10g of flour and 10g of water. Final hydration 87%.
2nd feed - 30g levain, 35g of flour and 35g of water. Final hydration 96%.
3rd feed - 100g levain, 69g of flour and 71g of water. Final hydration 100%.
Time 07:00
I fed my levain a second time.
Time 09:00
I took the pre-mix from the refrigerator and put it on the counter, temperature in my kitchen was about 20-24C during the day.
Time 11:00
I fed my levain for the third time.
Time 13:00
I mixed the other dough (flour and water) and left it on the counter.
Time 15:00
My levain more than doubled in size.
Now things start to happen together, so I'll put what was done in the pre-mix and what was done in the other dough which I'll call 2HA (2 hours of autolyse).
Pre-mix: I added the levain and mixed thoroughly until well incorporated. The dough felt very elastic, the gluten clearly developed and the dough was very wet.
2HA: I added the salt and mixed until incorporated well, then added the levain, incorporated well and then made a bit of slap and fold. The dough was elastic too and got a great texture after slap and fold.
I put the two doughs in the same container and left them on the counter, covered with a wet towel.
Pre-mix is always the top in the photos.
Time 15:30
Pre-mix and 2HA: First fold.
Time 15:45
Pre-mix and 2HA: Second fold.
After second fold picture.
Time 16:00
Pre-mix and 2HA: Third fold.
Time 16:30
Before fourth fold.
Pre-mix and 2HA: Fourth fold.
Time 17:00
Pre-mix and 2HA: Fifth fold.
Time 17:30
Pre-mix and 2HA: Sixth fold and rest.
After sixth fold.
Time 18:30
Usually I finish the BF here, but I analyzed the doughs and thought I could go on for a little longer.
Time 19:10
The doughs have grown, there are some bubbles on the surface, not large but noticeable. I decide to finish the BF.
Pre-mix: Pre-shape, the dough is very elastic and soft, a bit wetter than the other and a little more difficult to handle, the pre-shape does not look very good.
2HA: Pre-shape, by far the easiest dough to handle I've ever made, is elastic and soft, not sticking and has a great texture, the pre-shape looks better.
I cover the doughs with a damp towel.
Time 19:30
I remove the towel.
Time 19:35
Pre-mix and 2HA: Here the same thing happened with the two doughs, they held the shape well during the rest on the counter after the pre-shape, but when trying to make the shape everything went wrong, as I handled the doughs they got wet and losing all elasticity, it seemed that they were returning to that state soon after mixing, so I made the shape as best I could, which was really bad and put it on the bannetons, covered with plastic, closed it and left it on the counter. It was clear that something had gone wrong.
Time 20:35
I put the bannetons in the refrigerator.
Time 33:35
Preheat the oven to 250 ° C.
Pre-mix: I removed from the refrigerator, when I went to put in the pan the dough glued a little on the banneton, but ended up leaving. I had never had this problem since I started using rice flour. Bake for 20 minutes with lid. I took off the lid and reduced it to 230º C. I baked for about 15 minutes more.
2HA: It was very similar to the pre-mix in the banneton, I decide not to bake.
Pre-mix final result:
Thanks Dan for the warning, I hope it's easier to understand now.
It was very frustrating, but served to see that actually in my last batch the problem was the poor elasticity of the dough resulting from the quick 30-minute autolyse. After thinking a lot about what happened in this experiment, I think the problem was that BF had a long time, the dough arrived at the pre-shape almost over fermented, and when they got past the point they degraded and the result was that. What do you think?
Most of the bakers, including myself, for the Champlain SD Community Bake concluded that the over night pre-mix degraded the dough excessively. We have no idea how Trevor gets that to work. It looks like your experiment confirms this finding.
Joze mentions necessary adjustments for various flours in his post, 50% Whole Wheat Community Bake. But as of yet I haven’t dailed my flour in.
Dan
Maybe, Dan, but if it was this would only have had a problem with the pre-mix, but the same thing happened with 2HA, so I imagine the problem was in the BF, although in fact I really do not know.
and wondering about your loaves... If the pre-mix would have been the issue I think you would have known before even starting bulk....at least that is what I've found when my dough degraded during pre-mix. I also think judging from the photo that the dough looked good....My hunch is that bulk was either too long or too long rest on bench ?What was the temp during bulk? Did you get the domed look with a few bubbles towards the end of bulk? What rise did you have 30% or more....Kat
When I tried longer autolyses (4 hours) with other flours, they actually degraded before the bulk. The temperature of my kitchen was about 22 ° C during the bulk, the temperature of the doughss I do not know, I do not have the thermometer to check, unfortunately. Yes, it looked doomed and had a few bubbles at the end of bulk, I imagine the growth was up to 50%, but I have a hard time visualizing it, so I really do not know, maybe I need to trade for smaller containers to facilitate this analysis. The rest on the bench was only 25 minutes between the pre-shape and the shape, both doughs kept well the shape, so I do not know. I updated the post, hope it's easier to read and to understand. Thank you Kat for your help!
by a very experienced baker...
http://camiabreadlab.blogspot.com/p/bakers-secrets-untold.html
and it might help to judge the end of bulk better if this were to be the problem...
I have not tried this yet as I used a container with measurements and looked when the dough has reached 30% of rise. In the past I did let the dough go to 50% but often ended up with flat overproofed doughs and oven spring seemed to have improved since I don't let the dough go that far during bulk...
Leslie, also mentioned the trick with putting a piece of dough in a small container and next to dough in bulk and use markings to judge the rise...I might give the water approach a go too and see how it works with my normal methods..
Kat
Really, that's a great idea! I'll try it this weekend,
To avoid being always creating a new topic I'll post it right here. After the batch of this weekend I think the past week's doughs the problem was not a very long BF, but on the contrary, a very short. This weekend I used the test that Kat suggested, I took a piece of the dough and left it in a glass of water, waiting for it to float to know when the BF would have finished. The temperature in my kitchen this weekend ranged between 19-21º C. The method and the recipe were the same as last week, but I did only with the 2 hours of autolyse. After 4 and a half hours of BF the dough in the glass with water had not yet floated, so I decided to leave and watch the doughs, making folds whenever they spread too much. with 8 and a half hours of BF the dough in the glass still had not floated, it was approaching bedtime, so I decided to finish, just like last week. As the BF lasted a lot, I decided to cold retard for less time, it was 9 hours in the refrigerator until baking the next morning. I left the dough in the glass overnight and the next morning it was floating, but I do not know what time it happened. The result of this week was better, but I think it was underproofed. How is this possible? 19-21º C seems like a great temperature to work with. My breads are 10% levain. My starter was stronger this week, had refreshed it last week. It was 8 and a half hours of BF this time, but could have been even more, could that be a problem? I think the alternative might be to increase the levain to 20% or something on those colder days.
I was happy to solve the problem of burning the bottom of my loaves, bought 3 refractory bricks and put them on the floor of the oven, this also helped to decrease the temperature variation when I open the oven to remove the lid of the pan and when removing the pan to put the dough.
My oven, with the pan and the bricks on the bottom.
My levain after 4 hours of the last feed, compare with the photo of the main post.
The first bread (I did something wrong in the shape and it got strangely crooked).
The crumb of the first loaf
The second bread.
The crumb of the second loaf.
I don't think they look underfermented or underproofed at all judging from the photos....
Other people can add but why do you think it is underproofed?
I really must do this test myself and see whether the floating coincides with my decision to call end of bulk....
Matteo Festo suggests that overall 25C as an average is a good temp to bulk and with 21C you are below that and this may explain the long bulk. It also would be interesting to see what target temp your dough has at the beginning of bulk? I believe you use warm water right?
Well, my humble opinion - this is great bake.... Solano! Kat
I think it's underproofed because there are several dense areas with too small bubbles, the underside of the crust is very dense too and it seems to me that the more ovenspring gets less dense the bottom gets, but I do not know if that's right, it's just mine perception so far and in these breads I did not get a great ovenspring, it was good, but not great.
I do not use warm water, only when it is very cold, when it is at this temperature this weekend I usually use water that is at room temperature. I really need to get a thermometer to check the temperature of my pasta.
Solano
Those breads look great to me. I am glad to see you got your groove back ;-)
Dan
Yes, I was very happy with these breads, I was hungry for breads. walking around here by the posts of TFL and unable to produce an edible bread were difficult days! I was even happier by the perception these breads gave me that BF might be much longer than I'd imagine. Many even worse failures will come, I am sure of that, but surely each of them is very important for learning. And it's great to learn from people like the ones around here.
Solano
Solano, what is the weight of the dough for a single bread? How heavy is each bread dough?
Dan
I never weighed the dough or the bread, the bread because I always forget and only remember after taking some unrecoverable slices hahaha ... but I calculate to be 1000g of dough.
538g of flour
350g of water
12g of salt
100g levain (100% hydration)
I would even like to make smaller dough, like 750g, but my bannetons are for doughs of 1050g, I do not know if it would work to make smaller dough pasta using it.
Solano
So you only bake a single large bread. If that is the case, you are doing even better than I thought! Large loaves are much more difficult to bake than smaller ones. It is easier to get open crumb and rise from a smaller dough. Smaller doughs have less weight to lift. They also don’t suck as much heat from your oven.
If you want a great bread picture, try baking a 200g loaf :-)
Try baking 2 loaves from your regular formula. Your results should be scary good.
Dan
Usually I make two loaves, but completely separate, 1000g each. I do not bake more bread at one time because I only have two bannetons at the moment. It's in my plans to buy smaller bannetons to make smaller breads, but for now I'm stuck with 1kg breads. I had not thought that lighter breads would be easier, but it makes sense, thanks Dan for the tip, again! :)
Solano
with piece of dough floating test....as suggested by Matteo Festo...
I gave this a try today as part of my warm proof, cold proof and cold retardation experiment.
I put a piece of dough in room temp water and then all went into the proofer at the same temp. I took the dough out earlier in order to cold bulk proof but left the sample in the proofer. It rose at 18:30 which would have been 4 1/1 hours after start of bulk in proofer at 75F and a bit more towards the end...
That is interesting as I normally end bulk at that temp for the Champlain at 3 1/2 hours and aim for 30% rise...and on purpose finish bulk a bit earlier....It would be another interesting experiment to just finish bulk when the dough floats up and whether this then will be more a 50% or more rise type of dough...Matteo says that the timing is 'optimal' when the dough floats up...
oh the fun never stops....
after 4 hours 1/2 in proofer at 75F and a bit more towards the end....
This tip can be very useful, the piece of dough can accompany the main dough wherever it goes, be it on the counter or the refrigerator and I believe it would work. However I was thinking, if we have a 50% growth in BF, how long can the final proofing be so we do not risk overproofing? Maybe leaving it in lower temperatures, say 1-3 ° C, to actually stop fermentation?
Many experiments to do and little free time, unfortunately, but gradually we will advance.
Solano
using the dough all the way through in fridge etc. but no harm in trying...:D
Have a look at Trevor's most recent post as he is creating what he calls 'push' loaves and sees how far he can go before they tip over...
I think you stop more or less the yeast to work at 3C and that should be safe apart from the fact that the dough will take time to cool down and that can take a while...
This is why I am happy to end bulk a bit earlier for now and get some consistency and then see from there...
I might send Matteo a message and ask him what 'optimal' means with this message and how this relates to the rise of the dough percentage.... Kat