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HELP! Stiff (60%) pre-ferment didn't budge in 12 hours?

debbahs's picture
debbahs

HELP! Stiff (60%) pre-ferment didn't budge in 12 hours?

Hi all, new to the board and new to more serious bread baking (introduction post here: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/51354/so-glad-i-found-site). I am hoping all you experts can provide me with some guidance.

I made Hamelman's Country Bread last night and while it was messed up from the get-go, it turned out okay (but not GREAT). HOWEVER I am trying to troubleshoot my issues so that I can try again tomorrow to make sure I have the techniques down.

I made the pre-ferment according to his directions (for this recipe it's a 60% hydration) - only difference is he calls for instant dry yeast and I only use active dry. The mix was very, very dry (I did weigh all the ingredients).  Mixed it on the stand mixer (have a KA professional) with dough hook and it never really came together well (versus the 100% hydration poolish I made earlier in the week that I mixed by hand and was BEAUTIFUL!). But, he said it will be stiff so I went with it and let it sit for 12 hours. In 12 hours it did pretty much nothing. Was still kind of lumpy and shaggy, didn't get the "dome" he talks about. It proofed over those 12 hours at about 70-72 degrees (H calls for 70 degrees in the formula) so I don't think it was the temperature. Added a pinch more yeast as I used active vs instant.

Any ideas what went wrong? Did I not mix enough? I was worried about over mixing it so just mixed it a little past it coming together, such as it was, as a very, very stiff mixture. Do you mix these type of stiff preferments with the dough hook or should I have used the paddle? Should I try to mix by hand instead? Also, I let it ferment in the KA's stainless bowl (usually I use one of my ceramic ones) because he seems to imply in the formula that you just cover the bowl and let it sit.

Any thoughts or ideas would be much appreciated.

AlanG's picture
AlanG

with pre-ferments and the pre-ferment is pretty stiff.  Perhaps you yeast isn't up to snuff.  I always mix the preferment by hand as it's always a relatively small amount.  I scale his recipes to 1750g which makes for two loaves.  This is convenient as it is 1/10 of the metric measurement that he provides in the middle column.  The pre-ferment should more than double overnight at room temperature.  You don't really care about gluten at this point which is why you don't need to mix things other than get everything blended.  I do this step in a large Ziploc round food storage container and the pre-ferment rises to the top:  https://ziploc.com/en/products/containers/round/containers-large-round 

Alan

debbahs's picture
debbahs

pain rustique, so I'd be surprised if it's the yeast. I appreciate the feedback on the scaling of the middle column to 1/10th - I will have to try that. I can try mixing by hand but I'm a wimp and even though it's not huge (I think in the country bread formula it's 1lb flour?) it's so stiff I think my arm would get sore!

AlanG's picture
AlanG

One of my favorites is the rustic bread which is on the next page and the pre-ferment is identical.  I've not had any issues mixing it by hand and I'm a senior citizen!!  :-)

debbahs's picture
debbahs

rustic bread next, but the country bread was such a mixup I want to get that right first before I move on to the next recipe. I'm making them in order since many of his techniques are new to me and I'm treating the book like a master class in bread baking.

breadforfun's picture
breadforfun

...is about a third less active than instant, so you would need to use about 50% more than the recipe indicates.  And unlike IDY, which can be added directly to the flour before the water is added, ADY needs to be activated in water (proofed) for about 5-10 minutes until foaming before use.  You didn't mention whether you did this step.

Also, while 60% hydration is low, you should be able to sufficiently hydrate all the flour, which it sound like you were not able to do.  Did you change any of the ingredients, such as using a whole grain flour instead of AP or bread flour? These tend to be more thirsty.

-Brad

debbahs's picture
debbahs

than instant after perusing this board today! So I didn't accommodate for additional yeast, but on the same hand, I didn't have any trouble with one of the other recipes I tried (the Pain Rustique) earlier in the week using a smaller amount of yeast. Difference is that had a poolish not a pre-ferment and it was I think at least 100 or 125% hydration. 

I didn't change anything on the formula, especially since I was making it the first time. Only other thing I can think of is that it's been cold here so the heat's been on in the house - maybe the house was too dry and I should have added extra water.

breadforfun's picture
breadforfun

temperature can have a huge effect.

AlanG's picture
AlanG

so your yeast probably dissolved and got to work.  In the pre-ferment it did not.  Brad's point is correct.  I've done pre-ferments in our house which is 68F during the day and it goes down to 64F when we are sleeping and it turns out OK.  Best thing to do is get some instant yeast; I used to use active dry and will never go back.  It's much better.

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

it in the water first , k[let it sit 5 minutes then add the flour for the 60%preferment and knead it by hand.  A 100% or a  125% one you only need to stir it with a spoon after the flour goes in.  No sense washing a big mixer for this tiny amount of biga (stiff) or poolish (liquid) preferment.  No problems from now on.  You also want to disolve your starter in the water first when making a levain (soudough preferment) too - same process.

Happy baking

Doc.Dough's picture
Doc.Dough

At 60% hydration and a small batch size you may have to start the mixing by hand and then (maybe) transfer it to the mixer. The dough hook does not handle small batches well and 60% is pretty stiff for the paddle - as a result the KA 600Pro is not my favorite mixer.  With ADY and perhaps insufficient mixing it is hard to tell what really happened during 12 hrs, but at 70°F you should have seen some yeast action, even if it was spotty and localized.

Proof the yeast in some of the (warm - 110°F) water and a pinch of sugar next time and get the ingredients incorporated by hand. Everything else sounds fine.

debbahs's picture
debbahs

Just wanted to update everyone on round 2 of the stiff pre-ferment. So I made Hamelman's Rustic Bread, which is just like the Country Bread I had this issue with other than the addition of wheat flour to the final dough. The pre-ferment is exactly the same. AND ... using everyone's advice - (1) adding a tidge more ADY than what he calls for in IY (2) allowing the ADY to thoroughly dissolve in the water first and (3) mixing the pre-ferment by hand, I ended up with a PERFECT pre-ferment - bubbly and domed after about 12-14 hours, just what I would have expected to see. So THANK YOU everyone!