First Time Posting, troubleshooting sourdough boule
Hello, everyone! Novice baker here (one month) introducing myself by way of seeking guidance about the recipeI've been working on. Recipe is based on the Tartine process
The challenges I'm facing right now are in dough strength (quite loose after coming out of the banneton) and proofed dough sticking to the cloth lining. My process is as follows:
Autolyse, 1 hour
- 500g white
- 500g whole wheat
- 800g water at 78°-80°
Mix, 10 minutes
- 200g "young" levain (50/50 white/wheat at 100% hydration)
- 20g salt 30 min after integrating levain
Primary, 3-4 hours
- Turn and fold every 30 minutes or once dough relaxes (too gently? one potential area of improvement)
Divide, Pre-Shape, Rest, Shape
- flour the top and divide, flip
- give quick turns to shape into a ball
- rest until the shape loosens (it appears strong enough here, keeps an edge and never goes pancake flat)
- flour and flip, give final shape
Secondary, 3-4 hours
- flour a cloth-lined banneton, place shaped boule seam-up
- finger dent test checks out (indentations partially spring back up, slowly)
Bake, 40-50 minutes
- Dutch oven at 475°
- invert the banneton, top of the dome almost always sticks to the cloth, to the point of ripping on occasion
- dough is rather slack and difficult to transfer, goes in drop temp to 450°
- 20-25 minutes with lid, 20-25 without
Bread is often slightly misshapen (oblong, uneven sides/spring) due to difficulty in the transfer. Oven spring is not bad, but not great. Crumb could be more open (couldn't it always lol.)
WELL THATS IT FOR MY LONG INTRODUCTORY POST
Let me finish by saying that I have never felt more inspired or grateful than since discovering the sublime joy of bread baking. Any and all feedback/insight/questions welcome.
I hope to hear from you, and to be around for a long, long time.
-sourbro
Difficult bread to begin with. Very unforgiving. Most people have problems with the high hydration even if not a novice. The gluten formation has to be spot on and your flour should be able to take such high hydration for that you need a flour with high protein. So that's the first thing to check. Not all wheat flour has the same properties.
Have you floured your banneton enough and what are you using? With such a high hydration dough you're going to want rice flour or a mix of rice and bread flour.
A high hydration dough will struggle with height as it is so that coupled with potential problems I've just mentioned won't do your bread any favours.
Last but not least... shaping. Have you gotten this right and what can you do to improve on it? Perhaps a pre-shape and/or a different method.
Nope this helps. Don't be afraid to adjust the hydration to what works best with the flours you're dealing with.
To see a response so quickly really gives me the feels so thank you. Let's see...
I'll try scaling back the hydration to say, 78% or so? White is King Arthur and whole wheat is King Arthur White Whole Wheat
I flour the banneton with plenty of AP, even though I know rice flour makes things much easier. I'll purchase some.
Shaping is where i suspect some of this lies. I suspect that being more assertive in getting the boule nice and taut will help.
Thanks again
probably won't make a big enough difference. and still leave you frustrated. Try 75% and go down or up depending on how it feels to you. It's not a big deal and folks tweak recipes all the time, why not Tartine?
or even 65%, especially if you're going to use AP rather than bread flour. 75% would still be pretty high hydration for someone who has only been baking for a month.
Btw, how many loaves have you baked? That's probably a better way to measure experience than using a calendar.
Tartine is fairly advanced, which means you're trying to jump quite far up the learning curve. It's not impossible to do so, but for most people, it's better to learn step by step.
I recommend a cold ferment for the final rise. I have never had success doing a room temp final proof. Dough is less sticky when it's cold. My loaves don't stick at all when I pull them and bake directly from the fridge. In fact, I have 70 kg of dough in baskets in the fridge right now, and I daresay that it will not stick when I bake it tonight!
Plus oven spring is better in a cold dough than a warm one.
You're right in that's it's much easier to work with, and I've produced loaves that I'm quite proud of using this technique.
My schedule changed this week, freeing up three whole days. I spent them all (including today) baking, and wanted to see a couple of loaves through from start to finish in one day.
And no, they never stuck ;)
high hydration recipes. They are very unforgiving imho. good luck
From last weekend, subject says it all. Call it beginners luck or whatever, things went pretty well.
The First Sourdough
100% hydration levain
70/20/10 white/whole/rye
75% hydration
5 hours primary, 20-hour retard
Aroma was very fruity. Crust a deep burnished red with thoroughly gelatinized elastic crumb, sweet and mildly tangy.
places to work on Too much lifting off the stone or baking sheet with too tight a skin on the loaf, note the tearing. Could try scoring for more rise as the dough is literally trying to get out of its skin. Burnt top, suspect too much heat above the loaf setting the skin too early. Possible changes: could use more steam and/or perhaps less drying of the dough skin, scoring, more fermentation before baking. What do you think?
I am VERY grateful for detailed and thorough feedback, thank you. Likely correct on all points. This was my first time baking sourdough, and my first time doing a cold secondary fermentation.
As other users have pointed out there's a lot of spring in cold ferment, which is why the scoring wasn't sufficient to direct the spring.The cold ferment also results in more sugars on the surface. This is great for color, not so great when caramelization turns into carbonization!
The cold ferment also results in more sugars on the surface. This is great for color, not so great when caramelization turns into carbonization! I think that was more of an issue than the heat in the oven, which I never change and which never has resulted in a curned top.
A friend (a baker of a different sort) suggested LESS steam, so I'm unsure what role that plays.
What makes you suggest a longer primary fermentation? As for drying, this seems common in overnight cold ferments. Could I spray the loaf after scoring, right when it goes in the dutchie?
Place the whole basket (or whatever you're using for proofing) into a plastic bag to prevent drying. And just to note - I've reduced hydration to around 70% for most of my breads and they turn out just fine. Just enough openness to the crumb, creamy and gelatinized holes, etc. And much, much easier to handle!
I suppose when we bake loaves cold from the fridge, the yeasty beasties in the middle of the dough stay alive for much longer than the ones nearer the surface, meaning they frantically produce gas until they die at 140F. I wonder what difference that makes to oven spring, bursting and shape?
"top of the dome almost always sticks to the cloth..."
Besides the rice flour mixture, try setting the dough filled basket up off a solid surface. Park on a rack or trivet so moisture is not trapped under the loaf. Between bakes, dry the baskets thoroughly. Seeds or rolled grain can also be tossed into the basket to prevent sticking.