A couple of questions
Hello!
I've been working on a plain white bread flour sourdough loaf, using either KAF Bread Flour or Bob's Red Mill Artisan Bread Flour. My starter is 100% hydration (half AP/half whole wheat) and fairly active I think. When I make a 75% hydration bread, it bakes into a nice shape, with little spreading. Whenever I try to up the hydration (77% - 80%) there is more spreading once its out of the banneton and after baking. What is happening? Can I do anything to remedy this? I've tried mixing for a minute longer (by hand) after the short (30min auto w/ leaven) autolyse. Does gluten strength decrease as hydration increases? I do 4 stretch and folds over 2 hours and generally allow it to continue to proof for another 1.5 -2 hours afterwards. Then retard for up to 12 hours.
Also, whenever I've tried a longer autolyse (anything over 30 minutes) there is zero strength in the dough and the dough+bread have zero height. Is this the result of gluten degradation? How can I achieve a longer autolyse without this happening?
Finally, after the short autolyse that I do, I add the salt and remaining water and incorporate. How much mixing and to what extent am I developing the dough at this point? I've seen videos that develop it quite far and others that barely mix it together at all.
Thanks in advance!
1. The higher the hydration the more challenging the lift!
The less forgiving your dough is the less room for any mistakes. Make sure you have developed the gluten enough and have shaped the dough well. If you are currently only doing one shaping then trying including a pre-shape, allowing the dough to relax, then a final shape. The dough will benefit from this.
2. Degradation will happen but not at "anything" over 30 minutes.
If you are auolysing without the starter then this should not be a problem. If you do include the starter then make sure you include the autolyse time as part of the bulk ferment time. When you add the salt and incorporate you can spread the stretch and folds out enough to develop the dough as long as you have time to do so. i.e. If you have only used 10% starter and have a few hours to play with then by all means use the stretch and folds to develop the gluten fully. If you have less time to develop the gluten because you have used more starter then you may knead to employ some kneading when adding the salt then finish off with stretch and folds.
Just two ideas. I'm sure everyone here has their own unique way of overcoming these issues. At the end of the day it's whatever works for you. Try and try again.
than at lower hydrations. Technique, too. The dough behaves differently; so must the baker.
Lechem has given you some good pointers. I'll second the importance of building dough strength by folding during fermentation and then preshaping before the final shape.
Other than that, practice, practice, practice. It can seem pretty daunting early on but if you watch videos of bakers handling wet doughs, you'll observe that there are small but significant differences in the way they handle the dough and the way you are accustomed to dealing with less-hydrated doughs.
Paul
Thank you so much for the advice and feedback, the both of you!
Its reassuring to hear that improvements can be made with more practice of proper technique, but daunting is the word!
I have been doing a pre-shape prior to the final shape but I'm sure both steps could use a lot of improvement. I usually use 20% starter, but I will try it at 10% starter and see how it affects the process/outcome. Perhaps too I have been over fermenting without realizing since I use a higher %, its been quite hot and I will bulk for a full 4 hours, without taking the autolyse (with starter) time into account! I've never even thought to lower the starter % so I am looking forward to trying this.
In general I can't seem to find the point at which the dough feels developed enough to hold its shape but still able to produce a more open crumb. It either feels underdeveloped and bakes a little flat with a more lacy crumb or its developed too far, bakes taller and with a tighter crumb.
Thanks again you guys.
From TFL has some pretty high hydration sourdough recipes on his site http://www.breadwerx.com
But guides you every step of the way. Check out the recipes and lessons. I love this site!
Best of luck.
P.s. the very high hydration recipes are difficult. Start with the lower ones and work your way up.