The Fresh Loaf

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For Best Oven Spring: Problem (Starter | Leaven | Bulk Rise | Final Proof?)

TwoCats's picture
TwoCats

For Best Oven Spring: Problem (Starter | Leaven | Bulk Rise | Final Proof?)

I've encountered some discouraging-looking sourdough boules as of late. They were flat: no oven spring and no ears where I scored them.

I'm trying to diagnose the problem. At first, I thought it had to do with my bulk and final rises, but now I'm thinking it has to do with when I use my starter, then when I use the leaven created from my starter.

Culprit #1: First, the starter I was using was probably not the most active. It was sitting in the fridge for two weeks while I was away, and I had trouble waking it up when I got back.

Culprit #2: Then, instead of using the starter straight of the fridge as I used to, I fed it for about two days before using it. Again, the boules were flat. Maybe it's still the sleepy starter.

Culprit #3: Then I thought: maybe I'm using the starter at the wrong time during the feed. I would usually wait until the starter collapsed before I took a bit of it to create my leaven. I'm under the impression that there's quite a bit of leeway as to when the starter can be used to make the leaven since, essentially, making leaven is an extension of feeding the starter. What would be the "peak" moment to cultivate a bit of the starter to make the leaven?

Culprit #4: When I made the leaven, I would let it hang out at room temperature (70F) for about 8–10 hours before using it. Again, like Culprit #4, I believe there's leeway with when the leaven can be mixed with the rest of the flour and water. Is there an optimum moment (based on sight) when the leaven should be used?

Culprit #5: The flatness of my loaves could just be the result of straight-up under- or overproofing during bulk rise or final proof.

I got a new starter from someone from my bread-baking group yesterday. It seems *way* more active than the one that I've been using throughout the fall. The person who shared it with me recommended I feed it with 50/50 rye and white, so I'm doing that now. I'm also feeding it more food than I did with my old starter. The ratio is about 1 (chef starter): 2 (50/50 flour blend): 2 (water). My old starter was 1 (chef starter): 1 (50/50 whole wheat and white): 1 (water). I'm excited to use this starter for my upcoming sourdoughs to see what kind of oven spring I may or may not get.

Looking forward to hearing thoughts and to diagnose these flat little bricks!

pmccool's picture
pmccool

Or all of them.  Or inadequate shaping.  Don't you just love it when someone adds another potential problem to the mix?  ;)

Let's take them one at a time:

1) Yes, there's a possibility that the 2-weeks-in-storage starter wasn't at full strength.  However, that's one of the reasons for feeding a time or three prior to baking, so that the yeast populations get built back up.

2) This actually sounds more like a solution than a problem.  Starters that have been in storage for a while usually benefit from a round (or rounds) of feeding prior to use, as noted above.  Question: how frequently (once a day, twice a day, etc.) did you feed the starter before using it to make the levain?

3) There's no hard and fast rule about how mature a starter must be for use.  Different breads call for different maturities, depending on what the baker wants to achieve.  The general consensus is that the yeasts will be at their maximum numbers at about the time the starter just begins to collapse.  For many breads, this is the optimum time for the next feeding.

4) As with the starter, so with the levain.  You are looking for a certain level of maturity, not for a specific time.  Starters and leavens with peak yeast populations might over-proof in 8-10 hours at 70F.  Others with lower yeast populations that are still trying to work off their previous feeding might take more than 8-10 hours at 70F to reach full ripeness.  Since you are feeding equal weights of water and flour, it should show some expansion and the top surface should look slightly wrinkly between the bubbles as it begins to collapse.  The amount of growth is easiest to recognize if you use a container with straight, vertical sides and made of a material that is translucent or transparent.  You can watch the bubbles increase in number and size and the amount of expansion (which might be more or less than double).  You can even mark the progress on an hourly basis so that you recognize when it stops expanding and begins to collapse.  If your recipe calls for a levain that is fully ripened, this is the time to use it.

5) You will need to monitor the expansion of your loaves as they ferment to judge whether they are ready to bake.  The poke test isn't quite as reliable with sourdough breads as it is with commercially yeasted breads but it's still worth using.  For sourdoughs, my experience has been that it is better to bake them at a bit less than doubled in volume.

6) You didn't ask but even if you get the fermentation straightened out, shaping still matters.  And so does support during the final fermentation.  Each loaf needs to have a tight outer skin to help support it as it ferments and many also benefit from the support provided by a couch or a banneton or a brotform.  Each of those can help direct the expansion upward, instead of allowing it to spread outward.

Best of luck.

Paul

 

cerevisiae's picture
cerevisiae

7) Gluten development? Since this sounds like a more recent problem, this may be less of an issue, but since I don't know anything about your process or flours, it's another possibility to consider.

This fits in a bit with point 5) too, I think. If you're using a mixer, for example, you could be getting a really well developed dough that then proofs so long the gluten starts to degrade. This is not likely, I think, though if you're using a lot of whole grain flours, the higher enzyme activity increases the probability. Or the bran isn't getting soaked enough and is reducing the gluten development.

Just another thing to consider as you work through this.

aroma's picture
aroma

I had the same disappointing results until I tried a different flour.  Suddenly, with no other changes, the oven spring was superb.  I have stuck with that flour ever since with consistently good results.

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

From your starter to gluten development to shaping, proofing and scoring. Baking.

For your starter: try doing a few builds (which you have done)

Gluten development: Strong flour and kneading with stretch and folds. Don't just follow a recipe and think it's done. o by feel too. No structure then gluten development is lacking.

Shaping: Try getting a taut skin. I advise watching videos.

Proofing: This is very important. Try the finger poke test.

Scoring: quick slashes with sharp knife at a 45 degree angle. Also watch videos where there are plenty on youtube.

Baking: Pre-heat the oven and try to get some steam in there. If you don't then the outer layer will bake hard quickly and will prevent oven spring.

TwoCats's picture
TwoCats

Thanks for your helpful feedback, everyone. I think my starter is strong, and I think my shaping was good, and my slits were good. So I believe my main problem is either underproofing or overproofing. I'm sharing an example of the latest loaf. It was quite disappointing.

The sheen of the crust, the lack of color, and the really bad crumb—it looks like I underproofed it. I'm always afraid of overproofing, so I then I overcompensate by jumping the gun...but perhaps this is a sign of overproofing? I can't tell!

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

www.youtube.com/watch?v=6oAfl1u0fIw

 

...and an excerpt from www.myweekendbakery.com

 

"The important thing during the final proof is to stop before the gluten network collapses. When the gluten can not hold the amount of carbon dioxide produced by the yeast, the little gluten balloons explode and your bread will deflate before your eyes. The first thing is to control your dough temperature. As the temperature has the biggest influence on dough rising speeds, controlling temperature gives you stable proofing times. Please read; A Few Tips on Dough Temperature. Because I stabilize my dough temperature, my proofing times are more or less the same each time and this takes the guessing out of proofing- and bulk fermentation times.

The next tip is to use the finger poking test;

With your finger gently poke in your dough. If you have a high hydration dough you can first dip your finger in a little bit of flour to prevent sticking.

  • If the hole disappears completely: under-proofed
  • If the hole dent pops half way back out: proofing is just right
  • If the hole stays entirely dented in: over-proofed

It is hard to explain the difference completely. The best way is to learn from experience. Poke as many proofing loaves as possible, and you will figure out what you are looking for. If you apply the finger poke test immediately after shaping, sometimes the hole stays dented, just as it would if the loaf were over-proofed. You can tell the difference by feel, because when proofed the loaf is light, “bubbly” and elastic, whereas right after shaping the loaf is not elastic.

So, proof, poke and bake as much as you can!"

dosco's picture
dosco

Could you provide more info?

What recipe are you following?

Do you use cups or measure by mass?

What is the hydration of the dough?

What brand flour do you use?

Do you achieve windowpane?

How long and what temperature are your primary, secondary, etc. fermentations?

What shaping procedure do you use?

At what temperature do you bake? What is your steaming method?

It's hard to tell without more information ...

Cheers-
Dave

 

TwoCats's picture
TwoCats

I finally figured out what the problem was: underproofing. These days, my sourdough breadmaking is a 72-hour process, all done via a cold retard in the fridge (save for the 3 hours of stretch and folds, see below). Note that this breakdown applies to Tartine's Basic Country Loaf recipe.

Day 1
Morning, before work: make levain
Evening, after work: mix levain and flour, autolyse, stretch and folds for 3 hours
Same evening: place in fridge

Day 2
Next evening: take bulk rise out of fridge, rest on board for 30 minutes, shape, put in banneton, back in fridge

Day 3
Evening: bake night. Heat oven, take out of banneton, score, and bake.

Super easy to do, possible even during the work week if planning ahead, and consistently solid results. Great color, great oven spring, wonderful crumb.

I'm so glad I solved my problem, which was just the virtue of PATIENCE!

A question for all of you: I'm pleased with the crumb and the color, but I always think I can get an even-better oven spring. Should I be satisfied with what you see here? Or could it be oh, 2 cm higher? Always ridiculous questions on the quest for the perfect bake... 
 

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

Lovely loaves in every way. You've nailed it. Recipe and method is sound. One thing about autolyse... 

Autolyse is 30min just flour and water. After 30min the salt and leaving is added and incorporated giving it a good knead like we discussed to get that gluten formation going. Then bulk fermentation with stretch and folds. 

Just a technical point as bread is about the final product which is perfect from what I see. 

Congrats. 

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

Levain not leaving.

Loving the crumb. What a great loaf. 

TwoCats's picture
TwoCats

Thank you! I'm always thinking there could be a tweak (as usual with sourdoughs) that could make things better, but, given the simplicity of this recipe, I'm glad you think it looks OK. I can attest that it tastes great! :)

And thanks for the correction—I add salt (12g) and a bit of water (25g) after autolyse, incorporate, then do the stretch and folds. Forgot to note that step!

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

I think it looks superb!

Autolyse is strictly without the salt or levain for 30min. This gets the enzymes working and improves gluten formation. 

If it tastes even half as good as it looks I imagine it's delicious. 

Bon Appetite.