The Fresh Loaf

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Yesterday's first SD Loaf, all baked

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Bob Marley's picture
Bob Marley

Yesterday's first SD Loaf, all baked

Yesterday's first SD.  Upon inverting the brotform to dump the proofed dough onto the peel, the dough, to my dismay, adhered to the bottom of the brotform thus distorting its shape.  The dough was salvageable, however, and turned out fine.  Perhaps an additional french fold (stretch and fold) or two would have solved that issue.  The flavor was WAS excellent as there's almost none left of that loaf.  Enjoy!

PetraR's picture
PetraR

Very nice for a first loaf Bob Marley.

Very nice colour.

Bob Marley's picture
Bob Marley

THX!, Petra.  What I really noticed on the proofed dough was the thickness of the skin that had developed.  It was almost "hard".  But with my experience having made a few hundred loaves of yeasted breads, is that the thicker the skin, the better the ear in most cases.

DavidEF's picture
DavidEF

I thought the ears are more from the way it is scored. If you cut at just the right depth, at just the right angle (not straight down) then you should get a good ear. However, I am not a very advanced baker, so the probability of my being wrong is greater than the probability that I may be right.

Anyway, your bread looks delicious.

PetraR's picture
PetraR

You are right, the ear comes from the scoring on an angle.

Bob Marley's picture
Bob Marley

DavidEF:

The drier the surface of the dough, the "thicker" the skin and the better the ear that's obtained.  But reread my OP.  The dough became totally deformed upon inverting the brotform.  What was to be the "top" of the loaf adhered ferociously to the reeds making up the floor of the brotform and so I was working and slashing a severely injured loaf which accounts for the ear the disappeared.

With my yeasted doughs (400 of 'em) I've learned that the more skin, the better the ear and they've been made mostly at 60% hydration with a 12-18 hour ferment overnight.   Yesterday's dough clocked in at 75%.  Next time I'll use rice flour to line the brotform and that should alleviate the adhesion problem that we observed with this first SD.  We'll see.

Thanks for asking, really.  It's how we all learn.    <8^)

PetraR's picture
PetraR

I make sure that the skin of my dough does not get dry as that will hinder a good Oven spring.

The good ear comes from a correct cut/slash/score in an angle so that the dough while blooming creates this ears.

Bob Marley's picture
Bob Marley

Respectfully I disagree.  Take a look at my injured loaf and it's spring.  I find that the skin has no effect on oven spring and the final SD loaf you see is proof of that.  The skin of that loaf is the thickest skin I've ever gotten.  The skin imho has no effect on spring.  Hydration, however, can limit the spring....the lower the hydration, the tighter the glutenous strands and tightness limits the oven spring. 

David Esq.'s picture
David Esq.

We've all had breads ruined, but do you have any photos of successful bakes with the ears you like? And how do you score when you get good ears?

Conventional wisdom says the ears come when you score at an angle as opposed to cutting at 90 degrees.

Bob Marley's picture
Bob Marley

Here and hope you like and take a really close look at that dried skin on my loaf.  Take a good look.   : 

DavidEF's picture
DavidEF

It does look delicious and the crumb looks amazing. I don't see how your skin has hindered the oven spring any, so good one there. But I don't see any ears on that bread.

Bob Marley's picture
Bob Marley

That's a yeasted loaf and not a SD.

PetraR's picture
PetraR

I can only speek from my own experience Bob Marley, I once had dry skin * accidently * and the result was less oven spring than usual , the forumula for the Bread was the same as always.

If it works for you that is what matters:)

I would love to see an ear bread of yours.

Bob Marley's picture
Bob Marley

PetraR, see the piccies above and the ear is located on the very top of the crown.  That loaf was made using a 1.6 kg dough.

DavidEF's picture
DavidEF

Bob,

SD is actually stickier and more slack than yeasted dough at the same hydration, and at a 25% higher hydration than what you're used to, it can be a real challenge in lots of ways. I think it shows off your great skill as a baker that you were able to salvage that broken lump of SD pudding and still turn it into a loaf of bread.

As for the drier skin making a better ear, I wouldn't know. I don't aspire to have ears on my bread, because I mostly make sandwich bread for my family, not crusty boules and batards. But, I've seen videos of some master bakers in action and none of them mention needing a drier crust on the dough in order to have a better ear. They all attribute it to the way the slashing is performed. A deep slash at a shallow angle will leave a big chunk of dough exposed to direct heat on both top and bottom, and that high heat has a tendency to dry the crust all on its own. However, as I said before, my chances of being wrong are greater than my chance of being right. And, it obviously works for you, so there you go.

DavidEF's picture
DavidEF

I was just cruising some of the other currently running threads, and saw this one about slashing wet doughs:

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/38699/slash

In which dmsnyder offers a link to his previous post on the subject. Here is the older post from dmsnyder:

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/30001/scoring-bread-made-highhydration-dough

In which he says:

(I do not want the loaf surface so dry it forms a “skin.”)

...among other things. He includes some great pictures of wonderful looking bread with awesome ears. No "skin" needed. Go have a look.

PetraR's picture
PetraR

I can truly say that I was always told to make sure the skin does not dry out, and when I Bulk ferment my baking white for example, I have an oiled bowl and also spray the top of the dough with oil just in case it could get dry.

The same goes for my Sourdough, I do not want any dry skin forming.

DavidEF's picture
DavidEF

In reading his excellent post about scoring wet dough, I've learned that a deep score IS NOT favorable to a good ear on wet dough, because it will simply collapse. However, at least I was right about the angle of the cut. Good read either way. I recommend it to everyone!

PetraR's picture
PetraR

I do a quick score at an angle with my Lame and get good results:)

Wet dough scoring is more difficult but only at first, once you got over the * fear * and do a fast slash ...

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

on since it stuck and messed the bread up substancially,  But the while profing the skin got so dried out, something you never want to have happen,  the dough couldn't rise properly and blew the side out.  Usually this happens in the oven witha poorly shaped and or under proofed loaf.  When it blows out during proof means something seriously wrong happened.

You want to make sure the skin does not dry out and why proofing is done in plastic bags, or trash can liners or in humidity controlled proofing boxes.  The basket itself will draw some moisture out the dough and the cold too will firm up the skin plenty enough to score it properly without it drying out.   Dry skin also causes blow outs in the oven and inhibits spring substantially. 

I'm not sure how long this proofed but will bet it was also over proofed too from the previous photos.

Still no worries and nothing to be ashamed of for sure.  For a first SD loaf where these things will happen most often, it soon be forgotten and will be far behind you quite quickly.  It is certainly better than my first try for sure.

Proper gluten development, shaping, scoring and an 85% - 90% proof when it goes in a hot oven with plenty of steam is what gives you spring, bloom and ears - not a dry skin.

Happy SD baking - once you go SD,  commercial  breads will be few and far between.

Bob Marley's picture
Bob Marley

You ever had someone get 'under your skin'??   Well, that's what I attempt at slashing.  My blade goes in at somewhere between 30-45 degrees and with an attempt to lift the skin away from the dough.  Later on I'll show my yeasted doughs, their skin and resultant ears.  But methinks yeasted doughs are a whole different animals from these highly hydrated SD monsters!!!!!!!!!!    8)

 

And I really appreciate all of the comments here.  I really do!!!   *)

golgi70's picture
golgi70

But I don't see any of your photos in the original post.  Bummer.  Sounds like your happy despite the sticking to brotform.  

Josh

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman
Bob Marley's picture
Bob Marley
golgi70's picture
golgi70

For whatever reason I can't see your pics.  Maybe its the format.  I saw all the pics in DABS baguette post.  Even right clicked the little node and saw if downloading it to my comp would help.  says no file.  Strange

As long as your happy all is well

Josh

Bob Marley's picture
Bob Marley

They're all jpeg photos and dunno' what the problem is that you're having.

ElPanadero's picture
ElPanadero

Bob

You appear to be using baskets/banettons, so surely your loaves are upside down whilst proofing. Any skin formation is surely on the bottom of the loaf not the top?? The top of the loaf is surely covered in the flour you sifted into the banetton and I would guess does not form a skin.

BTW I also can't see any of the pictures.

Bob Marley's picture
Bob Marley

Neither of you aren't clicking the links at ChefTalk.com????

 

golgi70's picture
golgi70

It just has links back to this thread.  And i can't see the pics on this thread

Josh

Bob Marley's picture
Bob Marley

That was a work around and I'm not having any problem viewing the jpegs I posted at TFL.

WoodenSpoon's picture
WoodenSpoon

You gave us a link that took us to a different site that directed us right back you your broken links on TFL. 

Bob Marley's picture
Bob Marley

Funny but I can view all of the photos posted here at TFL.  Could be the browse you're using.

Heath's picture
Heath

I can't see the pictures in the original post either and I've tried two different browsers and clicked all links.

PetraR's picture
PetraR

I can see all Images.

 

Nice ears Bob:)

adri's picture
adri

For the op, the images seem to be removed from the server (or at least the server replies 404).

I guess, those who can see them have them still in their browser cache from a time the server did deliver them.

Adrian

Bob Marley's picture
Bob Marley

I've uploaded photos to the "TFL" server located here.  http://www.thefreshloaf.com/imce?app=tinymce|url%40src

I hope that this solves the problem and please let me know.

Heath's picture
Heath

the photos now.

Nice crumb!  Looks very tasty.

Bob Marley's picture
Bob Marley

The sourness is evident but not nearly as prominent as the S.F. stuff!  8)  But hey, Tonight I'm going to use the same overall ingredients but they'll be mixed all at the same time.  And tomorrow the dough will be oven-ready by noontime if not sooner!

And THANKS ALL for the heads up concerning the photos.

ElPanadero's picture
ElPanadero

I can now see all the original photos.  That enables me to see more of what went wrong.  On the funny side, the loaf looks a little like a roast chicken with its legs taken off :-)

A key issue I see is the shaping.  Something to work on imo.  The seam hasn't been sealed properly and is clearly coming apart even as the dough rises in the banneton.   My suspicion is that the shaped loaf wasn't tight enough which may have contributed to the dough sticking.  A tight outer skin I think will resist sticking more than a slacker one.  Obviously more flour in the banneton will prevent sticking too.

As per my previous post I still don't get the issue of skin forming you referred to.  Any skin forming is surely on the bottom of the loaf as the top of the loaf is face down in the banneton.

Overall though very good for your first SD. 

 

 

Bob Marley's picture
Bob Marley

Reread the OP.  Upon inverting the banneton, the dough stuck to the bottom thus distorting its shape bigtime and I had to do a quick salvage of its shape and slash and place into the oven.  We'll see tomorrow what happens.

ElPanadero's picture
ElPanadero

I did read the OP.  Now re-read my post.  I said:

"The seam hasn't been sealed properly and is clearly coming apart even as the dough rises in the banneton"

So before you even tried to turn out the loaf and had the sticking problem there was another problem in play.  I'm not trying to criticise here, just pointing out what I see and what I think may have contributed to your sticking problems.

 

Bob Marley's picture
Bob Marley

I get a seam like that all of the time with my yeasted doughs and they've all turned out alright.  Presently my yeasted doughs are at 60% hydration and with this first SD, 75%.  The latter is what I thought contributed to the sticking problem.  And criticism is expected!      8^)

ElPanadero's picture
ElPanadero

It's your choice.  If you are happy with the way your loaves look then that's all that matters.   For myself, I want a tight outer skin and a virtually invisible seam from the get go.  The skills needed to achieve that I had to learn whilst spending a week at a real bakery.  My loaves improved greatly as a result of learning those skills.

GL

EP

Bob Marley's picture
Bob Marley

Take a look at my yeasted bread shown above.

ElPanadero's picture
ElPanadero

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make there Bob.

Let me ask some straight questions:

1.  Do you believe that the shaping of the loaf in the original post was good   Yes/No?

2.  Do you believe that the picture of that loaf shows the seam unravelling during proofing?  Yes/No?

Also could you make some kind of comment on the point I have raise twice now which is that whilst the dough is in the banetton, it is the BOTTOM of the loaf that is exposed to the air and which will form a skin.   It is not the bottom of the loaf that you are going to score, it is the top of the loaf.   The TOP of the loaf is face down in the banneton covered in flour and as such is unlikely to form a skin imo.  Do you accept this?  Yes/No?

Cheers

Bob Marley's picture
Bob Marley

8DD

1.  The overall shape of the dough appeared okay until the banneton was inverted to place the dough onto the peel.  At that point it got torn apart due to adherence to the bottom of the banneton.  A vigorous repair job ensued.

2.  Yes, the seam is slightly unraveling but it's never been a big deal for me.

3.  Yes, the top of the loaf that I scored was originally face-down in the banneton during the proof.  Once the "repair" job was completed the dough was slashed and placed into the oven.  Because of the damage to the dough and along with its high hydration, the ear wasn't prominent although the dough appeared to have expanded fairly well.

ElPanadero's picture
ElPanadero

The 2 statements you made are contradicting each other:

"The overall shape of the dough appeared okay"  ===> " Yes, the seam is slightly unraveling"

If the seam is unravelling then,  in my opinion, and I think that of many others, the shaping of the dough was not ok.  Ideally you want a nice tight outer surface to the loaf and a well closed seam.  This will help give consistency to the loaf shape once baked.  A tight surface will help with scoring and oven bloom.  Typically poor seaming will result in the loaf bursting out early in the the baking, either at the side or at the bottom. 

I know your particular loaf suffered because it stuck to the banneton when you tried to turn it out but what was the reason for that do you think?   The dough doesn't look particularly wet in the picture so it could be a number of things.  Could simply be that there was not enough flour in the basket.  I also think a tightly shaped loaf would stick less than a loosely shaped loaf which is why I raised the issue.

Bob Marley's picture
Bob Marley

That was a dough at 75% hydration and it would appear that gravity causes moisture to migrate downwards toward the bottom of the banneton.  And I can't figure out what causes "skin dryness" other than a long fermentation.

ElPanadero's picture
ElPanadero

The moisture towards the bottom of the loaf will simply seep into the flour you put in the basket. So the TOP of the loaf is surrounded by damp flour for the duration of the proofing (which is why I don't believe there is likely to be an issue with skin formation there).  In bakeries, after a banneton has been used, the damp flour is "banged" out and then the bannetons have to be left out to dry before being used again. 

Skin is generally formed on any dough surface that is left exposed to the air.  imo it is to be avoided as it will hinder loaf expansion.  75% hydration makes for a slack dough so stretch and folds are usually in order and scoring can often be tricky as the dough wetness tends to result in a lame dragging rather than cutting cleanly through the dough.  However you do not need to start trying to get a skin on the dough to aid scoring.  Instead you can put the proofed loaf into a fridge for 10-15mins prior to scoring and baking and that will firm up the dough making it easier to score.  This is particularly useful for baguettes.

PetraR's picture
PetraR

I am with you on that, I do not want my seam to show at all, so propper shaping is key and of course a tighter skin to start with, but not a drie skin.

Bob Marley's picture
Bob Marley

When I slowed fermentation from three hours to twelve and eighteen, a skin formed on the surface of the bread and that's when I began to get a good ear/grigne after slashing and baking.  And I can probably understanding having the surface of the bread "seamless" as it were.

And up to now I fail to see the difference between "grigne" and "ear" as defined here:
http://www.sourdoughlibrary.org/scoring-bread-ears/

According to Glezer's book Artisan Baking...she defines the "grigne" as the inside portion of the slash which is paler than its surroundings.  I therefore assume that the "ear" is the entire structure that's been elevated from the rest of the loaf.

adri's picture
adri

I totally agree with you, that the ear structure is best seen on breads that have a bit of dried skin on them.

Dried skin cannot expand that much which would lead to a denser crumb if the bread  interior doesn't burst out through the shell. And hopefully this will happen just where you scored it.

If the skin is too dry (and not expandable at all), I believe, the ear also cannot open.

I personally don't like those ears very much. They sure looked great, but for eating, a loaf that had more oven spring in form of expansion is better. My experiments therefore were more: how to avoid the ear. But one of my main conclusions was: Good steam in the oven and the banneton-proof also in a humid environment. ;)

Adrian

 

PetraR's picture
PetraR

I make mainly boules, I am not good shaping batards, so I do not opt for ears.

 

PetraR's picture
PetraR

How do you bulk ferment your dough, do you cover it at all ?

If I do short pre fermentation like 11/2 hour for my basic white, I will wet the top of the dough and cover with a damp kitchen towel so that the skin will not dry.

If I do the long bulk fermentation I make sure that I do it in an oiled bowl and also spray the top of the boule with oil, than I cover it with plastic wrap.

For the final proofing I put a large plastic bag over my dough in order for it not to dry out.

My scoring is done with a Lame in a fast hand action but also in a gentle manner.

I never dried the skin out before slash

I spray some oil on my lame before each slash, that helps very much.

A wet dough is more difficult to slash, so I hold on ot my dough with one hand and do a swift slash with the other.

 

Bob Marley's picture
Bob Marley

For the twelve and eighteen hour bulk fermentation, the dough is covered.  And I seem to have had not one problem with oven spring and a dry skin hindering it.  See the completed loaves shown above.

PetraR's picture
PetraR

Bob, it is your bread and if you are happy with it the way it is , that is all that matters:)

 

Bob Marley's picture
Bob Marley

For my yeasted breads, I mix approx 1 TBS olive oil per 400g flour into the dough for the bulk ferment.  O'oil seems to tenderize the crumb, preventing it from becoming stale after three or four days.  Hence no oil rubbed into the container for bulk fermenting.

PetraR's picture
PetraR

Bob, the oil in the Dough is fine, it helps for the bread to keeps longer.

It is not a substitute for the Oiled containter.

The Container ist oiled so that A. the Dough comes out much easier and B. the dough stays moist and it prevents the dough from getting a skin.

I also like to Oil the Bulk fermantation container because I do not destroy the strands of Gluten when taking the Dough out.

Bob Marley's picture
Bob Marley

With bulk fermentation of yeasted dough, I've had no problem at all with sticking, none whatsoever at least with 60-65% hydration.

golgi70's picture
golgi70

Fixed.  I use 2 gallon freezer bags to place my loaves in as the fridge always tends to dry the exposed dough out.  Look forward to more.  A combo of rice flour/white flour and liberal dusting solved my sticking issues recently.  If it is too much you can still brush off with a pastry brush right before loading in the oven.  

Cheers

Josh