The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

Pan de Cristal/Pa de Vidre/Glass Bread

heidet's picture
heidet

Pan de Cristal/Pa de Vidre/Glass Bread

I have been handed a challenge; perfect a recipe and produce a bread I have never eaten nor held. The bread is all the rage in Catalunya and is used  to make pa amb tomaquet. I have translated two recipes, had my friend check them and looked at two examples on Youtube. In one video,  the bread looks unlike any bread I have ever seen; almost like broken lace, the other looks like a very large holey, light ciabbata style loaf. The chef who presented me with the challenge had said they themselves were not yet able to produce the bread, but that it practically disappeared in your mouth, after toasting. As it is a 90 % hydration, no knead bread, I revisited the videos of Lahey,Bertinet, and a few other experts just to examine their crumbs and consider what I might want to incorporate.

I have just completed my third attempt, taking photos of all the trials. The struggles are numerous, not to mention where I live in Japan and my communication skills but a local baker was kind enough to sell me some fresh yeast after my less than happy results my first time round.  ( Today, after discussing flour types available here, he has decided he would like to take on the challenge as well.)

Never having actually done more than view two samples on the internet, I can say, reservedly, I am very close to one example and very far from the other bizarre example.I have watched and read almost every no-knead advocate and expert's video, fascinatedly examining the crumb to see if the technique might be adapted. The recipe by Casero uses a Thermomix. Not having one and no vision of one arriving as a gift any day soon, I am following the old tried and true method: my hands, a wooden spoon, a kitchen aid mixer. ( During the first attempt I utilized three bowls, a cuisinart and a magic bullet.)

The other recipe is by Roca, the flour company, because they 'developed' a flour especially for Pan Cristal. The proportions are industrial so I broke it down to 1/10th the original recipe. The recipes are significantly different.

The facts: This bread is 90% hydration, made with harina commun 000 (AP flour but protein percentage is unknown), using a poolish made with fresh yeast, no kneading. The all-purpose flour attempt was not as close as when I used Lysdor flour, often used here in Japan for French bread,or baguettes perhaps because the all purpose flour here is 10% protein per 100 grams while the Lysdor is between 10 and 11.

The casero recipe is:

1.Mix 150g all purpose flour with 200 cc of tepid water and 10 grammes of salt. 2.Mix it well, then heat it on the stove to thicken it a bit. 3.Take it off the stove and add 100 cc of ice water, and when the temperature of the mixture has dropped to 50 degrees celcius, add 1 tablespoon of plain yoghurt. Mix well.4. When the temperature has dropped to about 37 degress, add 12.5 grammes of fresh baker's yeast and  let it rest for 45 minutes until very foamy , bubbly, and risen.

5. Add and mix in another 150 grammes of all purpose flour. rest for 30 minutes.

6. Add another 50 grammes of all purpose flour and mix. Rest another 30 minutes until  bubbly and foamy.

7. "punch down' air wth a spoon.

8. Put about 3-4 tablesspoons into a baguette form or silicon paper formed into a baguette form. stretch and flatten dough to spread it.

9. rest it until it is doubled.

10. bake in a 250 degree c. oven until deep golden.

The first attempt I tried to duplicate the thermomix actions by hand but found the heating on the stove as shown in the video was too much. So, the second time ,I used a water bath and this improved the results where by the mixture thickened without become too stiff too quickly. (Perhaps this method which mimics choux pastry was to make the same type of airy centre ?)

The second attempt was improved because I beat the mixture more but in each case I found the resting period for the initial autolyse much longer, more than double, to achieve the required results.

The third attempt has been the most successful to date. I incorporated some of the points of the Harina Roca recipe. The full recipe is

5000g harina de pan de cristal (but nothing is specified clearly what makes this flour unique). 4.500 g/cc? water but using only 3250 for the initial mixing, adding the remainder slowly afterwards. 0.250 lard. 0.115 salt. 0.060 fresh yeast.

The technique, assuming one uses industrial equipment, states: put all the ingredients into the mixer except the reserved water. Mix on low speed for 5 minutes and then on fast, adding the additional water little by little, making sure the dough is smooth. When the dough is completely smooth, allow the dough to rest until doubled in volume.

De-gas the mixture and spoon into molds/forms and stretch to fit as you please. Preheat an oven, without steam, to 250. When the breads rise /spring, lower the oven temperature to 200 and bake until browned. If using a convection oven set to 240 and then lower to 190.

The dough temperature should be between 24 and 26 degrees c.

I utilized the technique of mixing the dough in the mixer with the paddle at slow for 5 minutes and then fast until silky and smooth. I also lowered the temperature after the bread sprung in the oven at 200 degrees. I did not use the lard nor did I change the ratio of flour to water, but I used Lysdor flour ,which incorporates flours from canada, australia and america. The temperature of the dough after proofing was around 35 degrees which was higher than Roca but lower than Casero's recipe.

Here are the two sites which show examples of Pan de Cristal:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTzgIVNPfh4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U42nLAiMiHk

I have found another all purpose flour which has only 8.8 grams of flour  and will try again to compare them. I am wondering if I leave the poolish/biga overnight if more gluten strands and greater lace will develop, although the flavour ,following Casero's recipe, is lovely if a bit too salty for my tastes.  The second and third times I lowered the salt to 8 grammes. Remembering it is used with olive oil and tomato, that might justify the  higher salt content.

My next step is to try again and my friend will ask her son, a chef in Catalunya, for any input he can garner. I have until August to crack this mystery.

If I can ever figure out how to upload my photos properly, I will include them.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Dwayne's picture
Dwayne

Heidet,

 

Very nice write-up of your experiment.  You are bound to succeed.

 

Dwayne

clazar123's picture
clazar123

http://lacocinadeile-nuestrasrecetas.blogspot.com/2011/03/pan-de-cristal-casero-pa-de-vidre-1.html

I found this (you may already have seen it)

THis blogger has an excellent documentation of her experience making this bread. I hope this is helpful as I follow your journey with interest.

Have delicious and crispy,holey fun!

heidet's picture
heidet

Hi There!( Sorry I couldnt reply earlier- for some reason though I am one of the first members, I have never been able to use my username -it never recognizes it.)

If you look at your link, you will see the name Casero, who is the person I to whom I refer in my 'essay'. But thank you anyway, for trying to help. She is using a thermomix.

 

clazar123's picture
clazar123

This is such a fascinating bread. I view bread as a balance of starch/gel and gluten strand matrix that traps bubbles. We use different flours and techniques,heat,cold,chemicals, liquids and additions to affect the balance between the starch and gluten and affect the outcome.

I make bread using the water roux method and have often wondered what it would be like with a higher percentage of the roux.Using a water roux is a way to extract a lot of starch from the flour before incorporating it into a dough. I believe Pan de Cristal exemplifies this.

There is probably a reason why both recipes are so different.The first,strenuous method of making this bread using AP or even baguette flour is merely a way to extract every possible bit of gel/starch out of the flour while still having a gluten matrix that isn't too heavy.Because of the high hydration, the matrix is very fragile and that is why it is a fast production time bread. Those short rises in warmth maximize the gas production and also makse sure the dough doesn't sit too long and let the bubbles break.

 The other recipe (using the harina de pan de cristal special flour) doesn't need this strenuous activity because I suspect the flour has the capability of releasing that gel/starch with little effort. I couldn't find an ingredient list for the flour but I suspect it is made from a soft/hard mix of wheat flour,poss specially milled and may contain another gel-former (cornstarch?guar gum?). The resulting dough is still  fragile and should not sit very long or the bubbles go away.

I think the lard is incidental and probably affects how long the baked loaf stays just a bit soft before becoming cracker crisp. The recipe without lard prob becomes dry almost immediately.

I suspect the yogurt brings flavor to the bread. There is not enough bulk fermentation time for the naturally occurring lacto bacteria to bring any flavor in so the yogurt probably supplies a population burst that contibutes some flavor. I wonder if a soaker or even a sponge could be used with this dough for a flavor boost? Possibly since it is all about hydrated flour.

I also wonder if using some cornstarch or other gel former could be beneficial to this recipe.

Please keep posting your efforts! I may try some variations this week and see where I get.

Anyone else up for a challenge?

Faith in Virginia's picture
Faith in Virginia

This has been on my mind as well.   I will give it a go this week.  I was thinking buttermilk for replacing the yogurt for no good reason.

heidet's picture
heidet

I am so grateful for your analysis- it confirms my ponderings. I am happy to know you too are fascinated. I would not replace the yoghurt with buttermilk simply because I am trying to authenticate this bread. Once I have achieved this result, I will play with flavours and ingredients.

As I do not have this special flour, and I too could not open the pdf file with the specs, it is a specially milled flour for producing pan de cristal. It 's full description is 90% hydration flour for pan de cristal. The lysdor flour I mention is a blended flour, specifically for French baguettes.

I was 100 % successful making the bread  as seen in casero's blogsite. My goal is to make the bread as seen in the youtube links I provided, which seem to have a longer, more delicate crumb. I read in Casero's site that she suggested trying soda water if the water in your area is hard, as hard water retards development.

I excitedly wait responses as I start my fourth attempt today.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

for the first recipe. 300/350 x 100
That is without the yogurt. Plan to use yogurt to dissolve the yeast.

clazar123's picture
clazar123

I am working on this recipe toaday and have already discovered it is not possible (for me) to get a roux of this hydration to come to 212F (100C). It will go as high as 164F and that is it. Over a double boiler or in a microwave. If it is that difficult, I don't believe the temp in the directions is correct. I think they may say til it thickens and just assume it is 100C. The first attempt over the double boiler became extrmely thick,a lot of water must have evaporated as I was stirring that for about 30 minutes! If I turned the temp up it started sticking to the sides too much, even in a double boiler. I believe you must lose a lot of water and half the paste sticks to the pot sides. I abandoned that. If I did it in a double boiler, I would only cook to 160F. That is a typical direction for using a water roux.

 I did change the hydration for my second run in the microwave by adding all 300cc water to the roux and then quickly cooling the roux in a water bath as I believe that was the purpose of the 100cc ice water. Worked fine. It was the color and consistency of a thick applesauce. I also did NOT add the salt. I will add that with the final 50g of flour.

I have never worked with cake yeast (since at my mom's knee) but I bought some for this recipe. It was a little drier than I remember it, tho it was fresh with a use by date in May. The result was that it did not dissolve in this paste dough. I went back and whisked the tiny lumps out. Next time I will dissolve in a tbsp warm water just for even distribution.

The dough is on its first 45 minute rest at body temp. I assume that is for maximal yeast and lacto reproduction.

All typical for a first run at a new recipe. I find that many of these recipes are smoke and mirrors as to why something is done and my hope is to de-mystify and hopefully streamline the technique using some bread science concepts. I am BY NO MEANS an expert in that but I love the science behind the craft.

I am taking pics and will do a full writeup later. I hope I get a good loaf from it, at least.

clazar123's picture
clazar123

Well, I'm not surprised-total flop. Dense and moist crumb-not worth the writeup yet. I'm still not convinced this recipe has good flavor as there is not much fermentation time.Even when it was baking, it smelled very yeasty/pasty to me.I like a well fermented bread. I am going to try incorporating technique for that also.Texture isn't everything.

In re-reading the blog where she describes how she made her bread, I believe I mis-read. I thought she said to cook the roux to 100C and it turns out that 100c is the setting on her Thermomix. OK-that explains a lot. There was no way I was going to be able to get a roux with that flour/water ratio to reach 100C without burning it-even over a double boiler. I know how to make a water roux.

New plan for tomorrow-new technique and new ingredients. AP flour has too much protein.I knew that when I made the roux-very gummy and thick. I'm going to try to get some pastry flour tonight and do a combination sponge and roux dough tomorrow.

heidet's picture
heidet

Yes, she uses the machine. Also, I used the bain marie on the stove but your microwave technique sounds useful-I cannot control the interal heat so carefully but I use that technique for ganache and tempering so I know it works well.

I uploaded photos from each of my attempts. The last one was very successful and quite delicious as well as light. Four days later it was nice toasted. But I have not achieved my goal- to recreate the crumb you can see in the youtube videos- amazing and bizarre. There is no way one can get it to 100 c without glug or choux forming- i think i wrote that up, if not, sorry! That was why I switched to the double boiler and I warmed it till thickening disregarding temperature though I tested it for dropping down, making sure the yeast was added when below 38degrees. and testing it after each proof and rest.

The yeast must be crumbled before and I wisked it. If you add all of the water at the beginning and use a water bath the development of the glutin might be different but then this is what the flour company Roca suggests. I so it is definately worth trying. I tried this method also for the second attempt and it worked but on the third I decided to use cold rather than ice water.

The first time I tried , the flour was standard a-p and had 10 % protein per 100 grammes. The next time also but changed my technique.  It worked better but still not where I wanted it to be- so I decided it had to do with the heating process- with the second batch it was not as thick so it worked much better. Also I proofed it for double time-90 minutes at 25watt microwave proofing.

The third time,where it looks almost identical to casero's blog photos, I used Lysdor flour, an amalgam from australia, canada and america, and which is used for baguettes here- it has a higher protein level than the ap here but is a mixture of softer flour with some harder mixed in. Also ,with a spoon I used a fold motion to try and affect layering as one does with croissants(albeit without the butter,jeje).

Next I will try to mix a percentage of hard flour with soft and see how that works.

I will definately post further results and look forward to yours! Gambaremashou!

heidet's picture
heidet

In my fourth attempt to get a longer more delicate aerated crumb and thinner crust, I am am going to try and use some baguette flour from France, which has only 8.7 percent protein per 100 grams.  so I rescind my earlier comment and maybe, clazar123, you will have greater success with pastry flour. I believe ,though, that the flour I am using is  not listed as pastry flour even though it is so low in protein (the kanji for soft flour is not listen in the description).

I am beating it in the kitchen aid to activate the gluten, then I will heat it to thicken, and then follow the process again as before.

 

clazar123's picture
clazar123

I did 3 different methods to try and get the texture shown in some of the links-some based on the original recipe and some with my own spin on the concepts based on the flours available. All failed for various reasons. I won't do a complete writeup but will do a summary. The recipe I used is based on a high hydration, roux based dough.

This is a link for the method/approx recipe. It is in Spanish.

http://es.paperblog.com/pan-de-cristal-casero-pa-de-vidre-1o-version-494798/

Whole wheat pastry flour 70%/AP 30% mix 

This is the only kind of pastry flour I can find locally. I am comfortable working with WW and getting a great soft crumb from it so I thought I would incorporate some of my WW techniques and be able to still work towards the desired crumb. Any of the WW flour used was hydrated either in a soaker or in the roux. Any flour added and mixed later in the recipe was a bleached AP. It seemed to rise quickly, initially, but once the dough was disturbed to place it on the baking pan, it never rose enough after that. If anything, the dough could not contain the bubbles.They visibly broke as they formed.

ALL AP FLOUR-bleached Pillsbury

Did a soaker and roux with this batch just to see if there was a difference with the WW and AP.It actually rose a little more but again the dough could not contain the gas-not enough strength to the bubble walls from my observation. If you can cut the "loaf" to expose the crumb, there are many smaller bubbles similar to the one your delightful child is eating but mine is very flat. The crust is crunchy at the edges but generally tough.

AP 88%/CORNSTARCH 12% MIX

I have seen cornstarch used to soften hard flour but I have never worked with it before. I think my proportions of cornstarch was too high at 12%.This dough actually looked the most promising as it rose slightly higher than the others but the crumb proved to be too moist-I believe it was a cornstarch characterisitic. Still a more even distribution of smaller holes and the best taste of all 3 tries.

GENERAL COMMENTS

Each try is an education for me. I'm finding out how NOT to make Pan De Cristal. I hope it doesn't take 1000 tries like Edison and his light bulb!

I have never worked with fresh yeast and bought some just to work with this recipe. This cake was fresh and was well within its freshness date but I don't remember fresh yeast smelling the way this one did. Even when it proofed, it had an off odor and flavor that even affected the loaf produced. I would attempt this again but use instant yeast, instead.

These loaves had a very tough crust and somewhat chewy crumb-nothing like it should have been. The taste was terrible on all but the AP/Cornstarch variety and that just tasted pasty. Some of the flavor was the yeast but some was just a lack of fermentation flavor. I am used to tastier bread! I wonder what the original Pan de Cristal tastes like?- it looked delicious!

The salt content is too high for my taste but probably reflective of how it is usually served-with olive oil and tomato.

Keeping these rising doughs warm was my biggest challenge since I do not have a proofer of any kind. I parked the bowl of dough in a larger container of warm water and kept changing the water to be slightly higher that body temp-trying to keep the dough at 98F.

Making 3 rouxs was quite a challenge for me in light of recent hand surgery.(Both hands)This recipe came at a great time to use as physical therapy. Stirring the roux used exactly the muscles I needed to  for increased hand strength. I have not seen an actual physical therapist as most people do in these circumstances-I just got back to baking and using my hands in the kitchen, once the wounds healed. My recovery is going very quickly!

I'm beginning to think that this bread does not benefit from a roux but is more like a higher hydration ciabotta where you use a higher gluten flour and beat the living *** out of it-almost to the point of gluten degradation. Then the bubbles may be held in check by the leftover strong gluten and the degraded gluten will break,giving bigger holes in the crumb. This may be where I go next.

The key has to be in the flour. Here is a link to a Spanish site that makes a special flour for this bread. It has a pdf with the flour specs but I am unable to view/open it. Can anyone else see what the specs are?

http://www.harineraroca.com/cas/cons_vidre.html

Here is a link to a picture of the crumb of this beautiful, unique bread. It is more crust than crumb.

http://www.pandecristal.com/

The more I think about this and view the pictures of loaves that are called Pan de Cristal, the more I think the recipe that is roux based and the recipe that is special flour based are actually 2 different breads. I believe, heidet, you have pretty well accomplished producing the bread using the roux recipe, at least visually.Your bread resembles all the pictures I have seen attached to the roux method.  I don't think it is possible to produce a loaf that looks like the pandecristal.com loaf using the roux technique. All the pictures with the very large holed crumb are associated with the sites talking about the special flour, which is not roux based.

I'm putting this aside for a few days. I need to do some baking that actually produces usable loaves! Hungry family members need Breakfast Bread! That doesn't mean I'm not thinking about it.

 

heidet's picture
heidet

Clazar, I am feeling a bit guilty that you are working so hard unnecessarily because of my computer illiteracy. In my initial entry, I gave Roca's recipe and mentioned the other listings. If you want to read more about this bread, the original artisan producer credited with Pan de Cristal is the artisan baking company Guzman. One reason I have not given the sites but have translated the information is because I was not sure of the readers comfort level with Spanish and Catalan. So, if anyone finds information and would like me to help withe the languages, let me know.

My second attempt was successful but my goal is a very long dry crumb similar to some traditional breads and pastries. The key to this bread is how dry it is once toasted. Before toasting, if you look at the youtube video (I included the information in my second posting I think) you can see the crumb being prepared for eating and can see it is not completely dry until toasted. The key is how light it is.

I think you are getting there. Casero said it took her hundreds of times. She started because there is no recipe for home use given out by the producers. Right now someone in Barcelona is asking around for me to get more information about the flour and method. I will post it as soon as I receive it. Good luck !

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Im thinking, liquid heated, removed from heat, add salt and flour beat vigorously with a spoon.  Allowed to cool slightly and more protein added...  not eggs like cream puffs but flour and some liquid to soften the roux  (possibly a dough?)   beat smooth, add more flour and liquid (or dough)  

Is it an idea?   Starts with water/flour with extended autolyse.  Making of roux beating in additions of autolysed dough, fresh yeast addition when cool enough.  Lumps in fresh yeast fall apart in a few minutes.

I'm thinking to desire the soap bubble effect of cream puff dough (no eggs) with translucent crumb.

 

clazar123's picture
clazar123

That is exactly what I think but the proportion of roux in the recipes I followed is too high, I believe. And the mixing time of the final dough it calls for is minimal. The comparison doughs I made all had a roux of flour and water and then mixed the roux was mixed with a soaker of flour,water,salt on two of them and the other I didn't add the salt til the end. There was very little un-hydrated flour.

Next time I'm going to use a high hydration ciabotta dough with NO roux or maybe just a normal amount of roux (25g flour) and then I'm going to try beating the daylights out of it-to the point that the dough becomes glossy. I had been going with softer flours but I may do a soft flour and bread flour, sided-by-side, and see which one produces better enormous bubbles.

This one is a challenge!

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

"I want my kitchen back!"    (stands with clenched fist)

You sure there's no egg white in this?  :)    ok, ok, true to the process...   

heidet's picture
heidet

Yes, sorry, I am positive there are no eggs- wish there were!But Roca uses a tiny tiny amount of lard- will that help you? Good luck. Instead of spelt flour, have you tried a mixture of soft and hard flours? also you might want to consider some of the ideas  from 'overnight ciabatta-

http://www.wildyeastblog.com/2007/08/27/overnight-ciabatta/

heidet's picture
heidet

You have hit part of the answer. It must be beaten to death, I tried mine in the mixer then swtiched to the hand mixer. I fold it as one does for ciabatta. Before I started my second attempt I researched ciabatta because of my discussion with the chef who commissioned me to uncover the secret to this bread. Now be clear, this bread is so very very light it makes me question each attempt. It is used for toasting to rub with olive oil and tomato but there is not a lot there to rub . Another name fo rthe bread is Coca pan cristal but be careful if you do a search for you might end up with a recipe for 'crackers'.

I think Craig Ponsford's technique was the reason for my partial success in the second attempt. I then wrote to  Steve at Breadcetera, who told me the flour produced by Roca is most probably 10 % protein, but I will have the answer to that shortly. The producer is Guzman, an artisanal bakery but he is not yet releasing his recipe. Then you might also like to look at Jason's quick coccadrillo ciabatta recipe. And the recipe for overnight ciabatta might be useful.

My concern is the bread is not yet 'light enough',not airy enough, if you like. It has been described on all the spanish sites and  by those with whom I am communicating there, as almost disappearing in your mouth once toasted. Nect step, contact the bakery and make another attempt tomorrow-no roux, complete hydration and resting, beating heavily after each rest.

I am trying to stick to as close to the original ingredients so I am not using spelt or other flour not commonly used in Spain but if it works, you can be assured I will jump on the band wagon, and give you full credit.  My idea is to combine hard and soft flours in varying combinations, mixing vigourously and trying to see how Roca's recipe works, which puts it all together, rises it once, deflates, puts into the molds and again then return to Casero's tchnique and compare the two.

Check this out for the original Pan de Cristal:

http://news.guzmangastronomia.com/2011/recetas-pan-de-cristal/

 

 

 

I just read a site that offers this recipe: 300ml water 350 g strong flour. 10 g salt,  1 spoon of cream, and 9 gm rapid rise yeast.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

http://www.guzmangastronomia.com/eng/p_panaderiaartesana.html

hummm, north american flours...

member MCS, Mark on translucent crumb:

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/16878/what-translucent-crumb#comment-109465

I believe Mark's posted picture is the closest I've seen yet that matches the crumb you're looking for!

heidet's picture
heidet

I am going to use Steve's method, listed below and see what happens- He posts in yeastspotting often and I think he has unintentionally come close to my goal. Not quite there but looking good. Notice- no roux, no cooking, = no problem.

http://www.breadcetera.com/?p=162

heidet's picture
heidet

This was the result of try 4 using a different flour- 8.7 'francepan' bread flour by pioneer, roux which was cooked partially, fresh yeast, and risings of 45 minutes, 30 minutes and thirty minutes. The initial mixing of ingredients and the follow up included beating with an electric mixer for over 5 minutes each time, the final bench rest was 40 minutes.Baking time was 250c for 10 minutes until the oven rise was set and 200c for an additional 15 minutes.

clazar123's picture
clazar123

I tried a ciabotta (I used the recipe at the end of your post above) type dough with using 10% of the flour as a roux. I weighed the roux before cooking and after cooking and added water to the final roux to make up the evaporated water. Then I mixed the dough for 30 minutes in my KA stand mixer until the dough was quite glossy and the gluten very well developed.

The crumb and crust were soft (this is what the roux usually does in my breads) and too dense.It was quite delicious, if a little salty. It was a ciabatta variant that looked rather sandwichy and tasted saltier than I like.Could greatly improve with a preferment.

I believe there are 2 concepts to work toward: bubble science and extensibility.

 BUBBLES:According to Buehler on bubbles: "seed bubbles" beaten into the dough at the beginning of a mix actually help form the larger bubbles later in the fermentation process so the more seed bubbles, the more potential for larger bubbles later. I'm wondering if Steve's double flour and double hydration method contributes to seed bubbles?

EXTENSIBILITY: I need to understand this concept better-it really gets into enzymes and gluten science. My understanding(if I have it right) is that low acid dough has greater extensibility(it is stretchier) and less elasticity. Increased protease activity also encourages more extensibility by breaking down the gluten.A low salt environment encourages protease activitybut this dough is salty from the get-go. I'm not so sure it depends on protease to make the dough more extensible.

I have been in contact with a food chemist/baker who is also intrigued by this bread. I will keep working on it.

Next try-ciabotta using a bread flour and perhaps BreadCetera-Steve's  double hydration/double flour method.

http://www.breadcetera.com/?p=162

heidet's picture
heidet

Sounds great! And you gave me confirmation as to why when I beat the mixture each time it had more impressive aeroli. My next attempt I am going to use malt for a crisper crust, and beat it for longer, leaving the biga overnight or for a couple of hours and then add more flour and water and beat it more. It might end up more like coca de cristal.

By the way, lacocinadeile saved some of the mixture to use as a starter for the next batch. Sounds like a starter in the making. I have produced her version, which is closer to that of a coca de cristal.

My challenge is now to make oltre's and Guzman's versions and you are helping a lot!

I cannot wait to see what happens.

In starting my next attempt tonight, I was doing some research and started to remember a bread I had had in Italy when I was a student so many moons ago. The bread is called coccadrillo- crocodile bread. The bread ,in essense, uses a biga, then the second day, a second starter, and the third day a dough, combining the two starters and the salt. When combined, the dough is beaten for 30 minutes. Imagine doing this bread in the old days ,with just a wooden spoon.

I am wondering if this might be a useful technique. So, I am going to finish the mixture I have started tonight, making a biga of 200 g 8.7 %protein flour, 200 ml warm water, 2 g fresh yeast.

Tomorrow I will add  10.5 g of fresh yeast,150 g more of flour and 100 ml more of water, as well as the salt of 8 g of salt.

And I will beat it for 30 minutes.

clazar123's picture
clazar123

Leave it to the Italians to have a complicated procedure! But delicoius bread.

I am so glad my pitiful attempts are helpful. I thought I would be at least a LITTLE closer to a solution by now but I will keep going. My baking is soon to be on the weekends only as I'm going back to work. I have been on leave for hand surgery so this challenge has been great therapy for strengthening my hands in this last week. I made some loaves of our Breakfast Bread yesterday so we have it when I'm working. It was good to make something that turned out!

As far as I know, lacocinadeile is the only one that talks of a roux method so I'm glad to hear you are past that now. Does the doubleflour/double hydration mentioned by Steve on Breadcetrera have a place in your attempts? His bread is the closest I have seen with a  standard set of ingredients and fairly straightforward method. It is probably closer to the pan de coca-the difference being (in my view) that there is a bit more crumb to it-but not much!     http://www.pandecristal.com/en/pan-de-coca

Keep going!

 

 

heidet's picture
heidet

Yes, I gave up the roux method though was told by Steve that perhaps the purpose was to develop the glutin strands or increase hydration absorption, but as he was also uncertain and I believe there can be no good to come from losing that amount of liquid, I rue the roux. I am definitely going to try Steve's double hydration method today, as it is my day off.

I am glad to hear you are recovering from your surgery; and work is important though I am sad you will have to slow down your bread making.

The biga is bubbling after 6 hours; I will leave it to ferment four more hours and proceed to integrate another 100 cc of water, 10 grams of yeast, the salt, and another 150 grams of flour, beat it for 30 minutes and report the results.

heidet's picture
heidet

The results are in for double hydration for this bread. The aeroli were more pronounced, the crumb though, still was short and unfortunately the bread was still much heavier than the desired result. How in the world do I get this bread to have the long strands and massive aeroli, and be light as a feather? Bread scientists and experts, I ask your help. My daughter has said I seem to talk about this dilemma in my sleep practically.

The double hydration made a delicious bread, but it is a coca, not a cristal. As Steve said, finding the answer by august might be unrealistic but that is not my major concern. Not finding an answer is!

I am considering that the empty puffed effect of chou pastry is what these look like on the inside. For chou we use bread flour. For ciabatta,we use AP. So the combination of technique and ingredients is key. So close and yet so far.

So, how do I make these breads light as a feather?

clazar123's picture
clazar123

I did a search here of "open crumb" and got some interesting links. My guess is that there are bakers here that would be able to help unravel a good technique for this bread.

My breads looked similar- SOOOO flat!

I'm still obsessing about this also. I have a few links and I will quote the body of an email I got from a food scientist/baker.

First link: there is a good synopsis by dmsnyder dated April 12,2011 (second response from the end) but there is good info in the entire thread:

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/10852/baguette-crumb-65-hydration-dough

dmsnyder may be someone to actively contact-his breads are wonderful!

2nd link: mwilson has a recipe and some video links for a ciabotta made with a biga. He also has a formula:

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/27061/ciabatta-bread-and-holes

Next:

EMAIL CONTENTS from a food scientist/baker who is a colleague of my sisters. I don't know if he wants to be named here but I give him respectful gratefulness for reviewing my rather lengthy emails. He is also intrigued by this bread. I had told him I believed the important concepts to work with on this bread are: high hydration, bubble formation and extensibility.This is his response:

My instinct and experience for high water absorption, and high extensibility would be a high ash, high protein flour.  ...

AP flour in the USA is a blend of soft and hard wheat (unlike Canada, where it is a top patent mill stream).  Baker's Patent is general hard wheat bread flour (hard red spring if you have access is the most desired).  Wheat varieties and milling methods are used to produce other higher gluten (protein) types of flours.  Wheat flour in Europe varies a great deal regionally, and are predominantly all hard wheat flours.

 A pretty loose (high hydration) BIGGA sponge would also be my selection.  Also allow the final dough flour and water to hydrate for 30 to 40 minutes before mixing - the French refer to this as an Autolyase.  Keep the water relatively cool - about mid 60's, as the sponge and the mixing agitation with provide sufficient warmth through friction etc. 

If you have a food processor with a dough blade attachment, that might be helpful in getting more shear in to the dough.  With a Kitchen Aid mixer, as the dough is extremely liquid, I would recommend using the paddle versus the dough hook for the final dough, and mix at a medium to medium low-speed. 

Yeast levels may need to be moderate for this application, so that the rate of fermentation does not exceed the gluten networks ability to capture the gas.  Somewhere between 0.5% and 2% fresh on flour basis. 

Final proof may be required to be very long and slow - i.e. 2+ hours.  The trick in a home kitchen will be keeping it moist so it does not skin over, and keeping the temperature somewhat constant.  A slow proof in a proofing cabinet might be something like 60% R.H. and 80°F.

I definitely concur with a low percentage of yeast and a long fermentation (I was thinking 15+ hours) at a cool temperature -perhaps 70F? I am sure handling technique is very important.

This next link is to another passionate baker with an interesting site. It might or might not be helpful for this bread but it sure is interesting and gives access to more experts:

http://www.farine-mc.com/2009/11/meet-baker-gerard-rubaud.html

I have read all the sites/links above and most of the comments seem to agree with the email as to what the approach and ingredients may need to be:

  • Higher protein flour for a thinner,crispy crust and strong gluten network-at the very least an AP flour such as Gold Medal (in the US). Important NOT to overhandle once initially mixed but still develop a strong gluten network.Seems that handling is necessary but the type of handling is key-S&F being the predominant method.
  • Higher hydration recommended but dmsnyder achieved great, large holes with 65% hydration .
  • Use of a biga
  • Long,cool fermentation for good CO2 formation seems a common theme
  • Gentle handling to maintain the extensibility of the dough.

Since I can't help much with the baking, maybe I can offer info.

I agree-maybe a bake-off challenge is called for.

Have delicious-continuing-fun!

 

 

 

 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Read this:

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/11796/effect-vinegar-instant-yeast-dough#comment-66156

Could it be that where the bread is being made successfully, the water pH is slightly acidic?  This having a profound effect on the crumb?

Another thing to check on would be the amount of calcium in the water and compare.  Rain water vs ground water, etc.  Maybe you can pull up the local water reports.

heidet's picture
heidet

Thank you! Both of you, again very useful information. I am enamoured with Mark's baguette you sent the site on. I cannot find his recipe any where.
I will next try all these points:
Vinegar.
Using a big a again.
Auto use again.
Hydration resting before mixing ,longer this time (last time only 10 minutes, time before 30.
Stronger flour.
Malt?
Lard?
Last time both were included in minute proportions.
Cool long fermentation-last time four hours.

But how can I add an ash content as I do not have any IAAF here? A safe ash content and what percentage?
How do I make sure it is light,light,light? Next try tonight. Wish me luck(my spouse and daughter are hoping They can send me to Mark for a couple of lessons just to stop hearing me go on about it.
Mind you, I am fitting this in around my pastry chef job and it is becoming more and more of an obsession. Macarons are being rushed just to get home to my biga

clazar123's picture
clazar123

When the pH falls below 5 or above 6 it weakens the gluten and the dough becomes more extensible....This is done all the time by bakers....using vinegar in strudel dough to weaken the gluten so the dough can be stretched without tearing....pH is often adjusted indirectly when a yeast dough is allowed to ferment a longer time....as dough ferments,esp in an environment that encourages bacterial production.... as acid develops, the pH drops... and the dough becomes softer and more extensible....

I am quoting this book:

http://makyz.com/pics/Figoni%20-%20978-0-471-74723-9%20-%20%5Bbaking%5D.pdf

Wonderful book!

heidet's picture
heidet

Clazar,you work at the speed of lightening! my next attempt is on it's way:
Bighino-made at 7pm:330g water,3 g fresh yeast,330g flour:125g 10%protein ap,75g malt flour pioneer brand, 130g lysdor.

5 am :mixed together:425g lysdor flour,375g water. Into fridge.
Bighino into fridge...no more room in fridge...had tripled in the night,wonder if it collapsed?...

Next step: 5:30pm mix 150g bighino with dough,add 10g salt.
Should I add the 25g lard as suggested by HarinaRoca?

S&f every 30 minutes until bulk risen in fridge,about 2-3hours, until 1/3 risen or2x risen?
fridge for 24 or more hours until doubled, or after 24hrs, rise at room temp. Should I fold and stretch some more?

Divide and bench rest,covered so no skin forms,preventing rise (we are not making macarons).

Shape and proof about 45minutes.
Bake in oven at 240c. And after oven rise,drop heat to 200,190 c for 25 minutes.- A t least last time it was 25 minutes.
Any opinions?

heidet's picture
heidet

Clazar,you work at the speed of lightening! my next attempt is on it's way:
Bighino-made at 7pm:330g water,3 g fresh yeast,330g flour:125g 10%protein ap,75g malt flour pioneer brand, 130g lysdor.

5 am :mixed together:425g lysdor flour,375g water. Into fridge.
Bighino into fridge...no more room in fridge...had tripled in the night,wonder if it collapsed?...

Next step: 5:30pm mix 150g bighino with dough,add 10g salt.
Should I add the 25g lard as suggested by HarinaRoca?

S&f every 30 minutes until bulk risen in fridge,about 2-3hours, until 1/3 risen or2x risen?
fridge for 24 or more hours until doubled, or after 24hrs, rise at room temp. Should I fold and stretch some more?

Divide and bench rest,covered so no skin forms,preventing rise (we are not making macarons).

Shape and proof about 45minutes.
Bake in oven at 240c. And after oven rise,drop heat to 200,190 c for 25 minutes.- A t least last time it was 25 minutes.
Any opinions?

clazar123's picture
clazar123

I have never taken a bread to this length of time with the preferment and autolyse so I am in unfamiliar territory! I will tell you what I think, theoretically. 

BIGA: To me, a biga is a lower hydration preferment-more like dough. Prob 50-75% hydration. It takes  a little longer to mature,generally, and can be used 1-2 days after making, if refrigerated.

POOLISH: A poolish is more liquid than a biga-I usually do equal weight flour and water (150g each)with about 50g of my 100% hydration levain/sourdough starter. If using commercial yeast , it would be a small amount-a pinch. It can overmature quickly. With my levain (very active)I generally don't go beyond 12 hours at 65-70F . A spent poolish has lost its covering of small bubbles and has a layer of  clear yellowish liquid over the top of the thicker bottom layer of flour and water. It will not raise bread and may actually damage the dough made with it due to enzyme action.

I'm not sure if the bighino you made is going to be  usable or spent. Just to make sure I have the timing correctly understood:Made bighino at 7PM and sat at room temp until 5AM (10 hours), then refrigerated until 5:30 PM(12 hours) and  will mix into dough at that time. SO it was at room temp for 10 hours and refrig temp for 12 hours. And it is a 100% hydration preferment (no matter what we call it). I'm uncertain-I have doubt that it will still be viable. I would not proceed with using it if it is not very active. However, I believe you can continue to refrigerate the flour/water autolyse while you make and age the new bighino.

I would add the  small amount of lard,as recommended. It will help "lubricate" the gluten. Anything to promote extensibility.

As far as the cold retard, I would mix the dough and let it rest in the bowl-it should be quite liquid being a high hydration dough. S&F every 30 minutes x 4 then place in the refrigerator for the long,cold retard. You may need to S&F 1 or 2 times in the refrig if the dough takes a long time to cool down it will still rise in the refrig. After the retard (24 hours?) ,bring out and let sit (covered) for 30-60 minutes. Shape,proof, and bake.

Let us all know!

 

 

 

heidet's picture
heidet

Yes I am in agreement. The lard was added with the salt and the starter/biga.I used a poolish in the three first attempts. So I decided to try this technique the technique described by txfarmer/David in 2010 for a beautiful baguette.
I am using a 100%hydration starter.I am relieved to say it was fine, it looked fine. The autolyse was fine also,as you mentioned it could stay, I was happy. I wanted to add something akin to ash but cannot think of much. I forgot the vinegar.
I am not sure if perhaps I shouldn't have added more yeast at this time but I will wait and find out.
The bread is fairly flat as you noticed in the pictures on the different company sites but it is the crumb and crackle on the crust that causes the struggle.
If it doesn't work this time, I will try a levain or poolish again. (I just realized this computer has been changing my words to more common usage so all my entries have glaring mistakes. Sorry.
Now to the stretch and fold. I have been lucky we have some warm weather but not too warm . Yesterday was 30.c and today is 27.
Thank you for the book citation. I will order that.

heidet's picture
heidet

After 36+hours, the results are in. I have just eaten a most delicious, much lighter, coca but the aeroli are not big enough and the crumb is simply not that empty, aerated, holey bread I had set for my goal. It smells and tastes sensational but it is not pan de cristal .
Photos to follow. I Still be live the fault lies in my sand f ftechnique. I think I degassed it. At least I believe it is likely.
But it has a most delicate texture and is not yet crispy enough. I did not use a steam oven. Rocaille says don't steam but Without steam how does one get that super crispy exterior?
Must try again but tonight I will sleep!
Photos will follow.

clazar123's picture
clazar123

I can't find the reference now but one of the baguette posts I read recently mentioned leaving the baguettes in the warm,turned off for 10-15 minutes with the door open to dry out and crisp the crust.  I can't find that now but that may be a key element. I also find that a dry but not skinned over crust is essential to getting the most crackle out of a finished loaf. Would the principles of how to achieve a crackly strudel or croissant dough be the same? 

I have seen that with the high hydration breads that steam is sometimes not recommended but I wonder if the difference is between commercial and home ovens that influences the recommendation? In my oven, I believe the steam is actually helping to rise the temp of the bread faster and not just providing moisture. My oven is a 35 yr old electric model that probably takes more than a few minutes to bring the temp up to temp once I open the door to load the bread. A commercial oven or even a convection  would probably not have that consideration.

So...how to make bigger bubbles at the end of this long process. Put the dough in a cold oven?(Tricky to get the bubbles expanding and set before they collapse). Use a chemical gas producer (baking soda or powder) at the end? Different handling? (Practice,practice)

I think you are MUCH closer to where you want to be. 

 Go to sleep and dream the solution.

 

heidet's picture
heidet

Thank you, clazar. I gave some to my friend, who has actually eaten ther eal stuff and she said when she toasted it, it melted in her mouth, so I have that down correctly. Now to make it superbly aerated with longer crumb strands, you know like when one pulls apart a really perfect croissant- hence my obsession with lamination. I am actually tempted to stretch and fold the lard next time. I thought of doing it on try number 6, which is bulk resting as I type. I definately need a lighter hand with the s&f, as well as shaping/proofing. I am only using 2.5 grams of fresh yeast in the starter. Wonder if I should then put some into the autolyse when I mix it together with the starter? What could that create?

What do you think about using a preheated stone, as with ciabatta?

here are a few photos from attempt 5, finished last night.  Is anyone else trying to master this bread, I wonder or is everyone else too sane to keep going? In this attempt today I am not using any malt flour but did put in 3 grams of malt powder.

Todays attempt uses all "kamera", from the US and Canada, which is 11.5 % protein. But the starter is ap flour. all else remains constant.

 

clazar123's picture
clazar123

Just some ruminations-brain storming. I was making naan breads for supper yesterday and was thinking about pan de cristal. What if you made the loaf much thinner (4-6mm high) and stretched it to the same size as the loaves I see in your pictures? Would it develop into the bubbly, almost crumbless loaf in the ideal pictures of pan de cristal? The trick is in handling that dough and stretching it without destroying it.

The crumb on this last loaf looks wonderful! You are achieving a great deal of translucency. I am not familiar with the flour you mentioned but it sure made a beautifully creamy colored crumb.

I am not very familiar with fresh yeast,which you are using for these loaves so I don't have a sense of how much fresh yeast is an appropriate amount to use. Is 2.5g considered a small amount? Would instant yeast be more active than fresh?

More brainstorming: We've looked at a method of double addition of flour and water (Breadcetera.com)- why not a double addition of yeast? Would it give the extra gas production needed at the end of this long process? I have not ever heard of this but why not? I would think you'd want it near the end of the process to give it at least a few hours to ferment. Just sprinkle some instant yeast lightly on the dough and S&F it in. It is a high enough hydration dough that it should incorporate well.Or dissolve it in a teaspoon of water and sprinkle it on and S&F a few times at the last few hours. Then let it rise (dramatically would be nice),shape and bake after a short proof. A final explosion of fermentation at the end.

I think I have to try that this weekend-it may be really fun.

heidet's picture
heidet

A long hiatus but I am back trying to improve on the recipe for this bread. It is just not airy enough, light enough to be the authentic bread made in Spain. However it is an extremely light and holey coca so the recipe simply needs work. Or perhaps my technique. The last test I did assures me that the flour must be well below 12% protein and the 24 hour refrigeration is extremely helpful. The struggle is with the stretch and fold and the ingredients in the autolyse. 11 g salt and vinegar might be inhibiting the expansion too much and 25 g of lard might be making the bread too moist. When it bakes at 240c. it browns on the top faster than the underside so perhaps 240 and then drop to 210c. I will try that technique again tonight as the hot oven ,as with cream puffs, should allow for greater oven rise than a cooler oven. Interestingly I can hear the water releasing as it bakes- it is quite amusing to hear the sizzle as if water were hitting a hot skillet.

I will not include pictures of my earlier attempt two days ago as the crumb was too dense and although tasty not nearly translucent enough, I used a strong flour, a mixed hard wheat ,mostly canadian called Super King. So tonight I will beak up another attempt in which I added another 3 grams of fresh yeast when I mixed the biga and the autolyse together and I am using almost completely Lysdor, again canadian/american mixture but a protein content of 10.7, with some malt flour  called golden yacht (great names). I also put some powdered malt, the same amount as last of lard, and salt as the original recipe. I will try what you mention, about making it even thinner but when I tried that in attempt 2 ,it did not puff up. You are correct , I think, it is in the technique as well- that stretch and fold. Did you try it? I was making tortillas on friday for supper and wraps on saturday and noticed how some strectched and folded bubbled up as i would like the bread to do. But with 95% hydration, it is devilish hard to handle without deflating. Any ideas?

Has anyone esle tried the recipe since my short break?I await all reports.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

What do you think of carbonated water?

What do you think about adding it after the initial mixing?  Folding it in after the gluten is developed, using it to up the hydration and the bubbles?

heidet's picture
heidet

So, do you mean, lower the amount of water in the initial mix but add the carbonated water, or possibly substitute carbonated water for tap water? The carbonation would evaporate wouldnt it? go flat?. Worth a try though. Still without an oven? what? how can you manage? A  toaster oven?

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

and a great imagination!  Actually from what I've thrown in the microwave, I would like to brown the pan de cristal first in the oven and then when the crust is set and lightly colored, finish in the microwave for more expansion and drying of the crumb.   

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

I don't have a baguette tray, no problem will use a rehrücken form. Dissolve the yeast in the yogurt and reduce salt to 2% or 7g (yes I know it is a salty bread but I gotta try it on my taste buds.) Using Austrian AP flour or W480

I don't know if my mixer will run for 45 minutes without going up in smoke!

I got some catching up to do...

Already not happy with the recipe as written 200ml water + 150g flour and 7g salt is already thick without cooking so something is off. Not clear like in pictures showing something that looks more like cornstarch wall paper paste. That would be something closer to a heaping tablespoon of flour possibly 15g???
Letting this stand overnight.

heidet's picture
heidet

My suggestion is to follow a different recipe and utilize the stretch and fold technique. It works well for me. I just have not got that perfect loaf each time- comes out more like a coca. Tastes fantastic though! Congratulations on the oven! Happy baking to you.

clazar123's picture
clazar123

Baking powder is used to generate large holes in some yeasted flatbreads. Can the concept be used here?

More brainstorming. Since it is such a high hydration bread,wouldn't it be a great environment to add some baking powder(dry or dissolved in a little water?) to the dough so that it will pump up big bubbles. Mini's comment about carbonated water triggered this thought. It could be added at the last stretch and fold? Or how about pulling the dough out into a large rectangle,somehow adding the baking powder as a layer and then rolling it up like a cinnamon roll.  Short proof and then bake. Voila-Layers and bubbles!

I may be losing my mind in the heat, here.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

the mixture on medium heat until it started to coat the silicone spatula and quickly build up a thicker thickness on the bottom of the pan.  Put in the probe thermometer and got 55°C and felt this might be a little high because when I added the cold water, some of the lumps have not yet smoothened out.  What was that bit about 50°C in the recipe?  I mashed them flat and stirred to cool more, covered the goop with plastic wrap and will pick up some fresh yeast when the stores open.  I want to do the basic recipe and then go from there.

I like the baking powder idea.  Might try it in some of the batter just before spooning it into the form.   

Form.  That leads me to another idea.  I got the impression that the dough was being spooned into a curved pan with some sides to support the bread, albeit curved and that the dough was first spooned into the form and with the back of the spoon the dough was pushed up the sides of the form so that when it rose, there would be less resistance.  Using a flat sheet pan might eliminate this important tip.  I might end up using heavy duty foil (BBQ grill pan) with parchment besides using my rehrücken (half round with ridges) pan.  

I noticed that the white bread shapes, baguettes, rounds, etc. in Spain often had a dry fragile crust, not what I'm used to.  A crust nothing like that from bread flour.  If I picked up a baguette in the afternoon, often it was so dried out and crispy that I couldn't cut it without crumbs all over the table.  A straight knife blade could not cut the bread but more often than not shattered it.  I would boil a cup of water in the microwave and get it good and steamy in there and then put the broken in half bread inside to soften up the crust.  

Ah! finally the night is cooling off and flowing thru the house along with happy birdie songs, 4:26 am.  What relief! 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

by the time I got to the yeast. Just crumbled it and it dissolved into the goop along with a tablespoon of 10% fat yogurt. Poured into the mixer bowl from saucepan. Hand mixer with stand is going at low with a wire whip and it splashes a lot so I positioned water bottles around the mixer and covered it with a dishtowel. Make a comment anytime if something is out of order. I'm dragging my mini oven outside to bake. 10 minutes into mixing and still sloshing and spattering. :)

Quite surprised with the last 50g flour addition, I wouldn't have pegged the dough for such a high hydration. Very cooperative. ...so far.

Rehrücken pan too long for the mini oven, flattened a BBQ alu tray with a rolling pin and made it the right size with folding and rolling the seams flat. Then folded it in half and wrapped each half around the pin to form. Tah Dah! Mini mini baguette form shiny and new! :)

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

each at approx. 100g each

4 were just spread about 1cm thick using two tablespoons as tools
1 was spread half as thick and then a few pinches of baking powder dusted down the center with a thin layer of dough (spread thin on the back of two spoons) covering the baking powder
1 had baking powder (bp) mixed into the dough and then spread out.

Kitchen has 66% humidity and 26.6°C All doubled rather quickly.

All 6 had maximum pea size crumb holes and looked pretty much the same. Would be nice with even bigger holes. The dry bp left wet yellow spots in the middle and no big differences with the bp mixed in. My oven was not hot enough baking at 170°C so I think more heat would be in the next round. Don't know why it was so low, sun shine on the oven perhaps? With my humidity, I did stick some of the already baked bread into the oven a second time but the crispiest one was the longer baked single bake.

I removed parchment after 10 minutes baking turning the minis upside-down to brown the bottoms. Curse of the shiny pan! Go with a dark pan. Will try baking on pre-heated curved roofing tiles. Should have grabbed a few authentic ones on the way home from Spain!

Pretty much followed this recipe listed in TFL archives under Glass Bread:
http://lacocinadeile-nuestrasrecetas.blogspot.co.at/2011/03/pan-de-cristal-casero-pa-de-vidre-1.html

There is a difference, I beat mine for 45 minutes (as opposed to resting 45 min.) and the dough looks just like the pictures on that site.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Bread was gone before I could try toasting it. That also must be done as that creates the glass effect and the extra crispy crust. As my crumb seemed too fine for what we're looking for and moist, but not far from ideal, I'm adding a little acid (1 tsp apple vinegar) to the water and heating just the water to dump over the flour and autolyse. Today is another warm humid day. So I know my crusts will soften after cooling. I like the hydration and it is not hard to use the 50g flour for bench flour and fold the dough. The long beating has an interesting effect and I've found that if the flour is moistened with the slightest amount of stirring and allowed to develop, no matter what I do to it later I get great bubbles. So that is where I'm headed. Just wetting the flour, autolyse for several hours. Then add yogurt and yeast to beat 45 minutes and continue.

Even my husband agrees the crusts are not thin enough so that means the flour gluten is too high or strong at the baking stage. Hoping the vinegar with push decomposition along. (malt?)

For cakes, I have to substitute one third of the flour with starch or I have rubber cakes. So another route is to thin the flour with corn or potato starch or look for a lower gluten flour.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

and adding 60°C water to the flour instead of cooking it gave me a more liquid dough, very wet. With the 45 min beating it splashed everywhere so 30 minutes into the beating, I added the 150g flour and kept beating.

I also had a hotter oven and did get larger holes. I baked on a flat sheet and that does make a difference. too flat need the curved pan to thicken the middle of the bread.

I still find the crust too tough with w480.

heidet's picture
heidet

Yes that flaky,dissolving quality isnwhatnisnaimed for, but with practically nonsubstance inside besides airy ribbon like crumb- good luck and let me know how the baking powder works. I did not heat the autolyse, if you look at the link I gaventwomrecipes, one has the one from a flour company and the other is frommsomeonenwho owns a therm mix. The pictures are from professional producers, the sites on YouTube.
The stretching and rolling upmwould be interesting but your dough will need to benless hydrated then I think. Cannot wait ton heard resulted!

heidet's picture
heidet

so what is the result?

I beat it about 30 minutes but 45 sounds right. What are your thoughts on theflour? It sounds as though you are getting there! Looking forward toyour results!

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

July 8)   ...using less and going with lower gluten. no longer have a tool bar to send a photo of the last batch. see if I can send a private message. If you look between the bigger bubbles, the crumb is still too fine. Crust is tougher than what I'm looking for so next experiment one third of the flour will be substituted with starch and blended together thru sifting.

July 18)  By substituting 1/3 of the flour amount with cornstarch a whole different dough has come out.  Much more like a normal hydration dough that is too firm to be spooned into a form.  I brought the overnight standing roux slowly up to 62°C where it thickened nicely then let it cool blending with cold water.  When cool, added yeast and greek yogurt (like the thick stuff) then into the mixer with the wire whip for 45 min.  added a few tablespoons of the flour mixture to cut down on splashing.  The next addition of flour included the rest and after  30 min a fold,  the dough was rested for 30 minutes, divided into 6 pieces and pre-shaped.  Shaped into mini baguettes (1" thick cigars) misted with water and covered to prevent drying. Oven pre-heated to 250°C.   It is much cooler here so heating up the kitchen is wonderful!  

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Now to work on that open crumb!  (I'm so excited)  Might reduce the AP flour % even more!  Ev. Drop it down to half.  

The crumb is looking better too!  I really shouldn't be sitting here with a cold block of garlic butter...  waiting for the bread to cool.  I'm repeating this last batch and staggering the final proofing times to see how big and bloated I can raise the dough.  Then see about reducing the gluten even more.  I think the "dissolve on the tongue" mouth feel comes from fully developed but less gluten.  Still, pretty boring looking little breads.  Will have to work on that...

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

the roux temperature to get the same kind of thickening reaction.  This time with 50% AP and 50% cornstarch, cooked it up to 81°C   ...interesting...  

woops!  don't like the way that crumb turned out!  no real changes, dough is not elastic enough.  Back to the drawing board...  The bread is delicious but not the right crumb.  

heidet's picture
heidet

Hi there. i replied to your earlier post. Sorry but I was out of commission but I am back and fighting fit to get somewhere witht his bread. Will try again. the gluten I use is low.But not too low, right now I am mixing flours in combination. Next I will try a ciabatta flour. How are you doing?

 

cranbo's picture
cranbo

In looking at the texture examples for glass bread/pan de cristal, I found these:

 

To me it seems that the shape & hydration is close to ciabatta, but the overall texture is light and crispy, perhaps more like a long-fermented baguette, with crust color suggesting a fairly bold, high temp bake in alignment with the previously listed recipes...not to throw a wrench in the works, but why not try tweaking one of these two baguette recipes? It seems like their textures are closer to what you are trying to achieve. Maybe reverse engineering those formulas (or looking for similarities in technique) will help. 

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/22286/amazing-airy-holey-baguettes
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/19830/36-hours-sourdough-baguette-everything-i-know-one-bread

 

heidet's picture
heidet

Yes that is it! And yes that is what I attempt. I am going to check those recipes. One is the basic technique I had tried in June before I had to slow down. Great! But what do you mean by the word, 'Bold', when talking about the heating temperature? And forgive me but whatdo you mean by reverse engineering. Maybe it is the jetlag but I feel slow.

So excited by your input=it has re-energized me. Do you know any thing about freezing the mixture after forming but before baking? My chef would like me to work on that too,if you can imagine. I have never attempted that sort of thing.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

I was thinking of heading over to her 36 hour method.  I like the 12 hour autolyse and and and.  What I need to remember is to toast it after cutting open the crumb, I think that crispens up the "glass."  

Temperatures are finally cooling down.  :)