The Fresh Loaf

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Borodinsky, Borodinsky, and Miche

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varda's picture
varda

Borodinsky, Borodinsky, and Miche

Other people's obsessions can be dull.   That's what the back button, the scroll button and the  block this user button are for.    But if you'll bear with me I have more to say about Borodinsky.    First, misunderstanding a suggestion by eliabel, I searched high and low and found a Russian grocery in Allston, MA which carries Kvas.   So I made the trek over there, and discovered that they also carried Borodinsky.    I bought a loaf, prepared in a sliced sandwich bread format, thinking how good could this be?    The answer - extremely good, extremely fresh, extremely coriandery.   I consider myself corrected.   Then it turns out that eliabel was not suggesting that I buy bottled Kvas, but instead Kvas concentrate.   But I had my Kvas, and by golly (remember, this is a well-mannered site) I was going to use it.  

The Big Sky Borodinsky

The Kvas - It tasted like bread.

Borodinsky with Kvas

Again I followed Andy's Feb 6, 2012 post, but with enough deviations that it warrants specifying formula and method directly.

Rye Sour

 

2:00 PM

9:00 PM

 

 

 

Seed

50

 

 

 

 

 

Dark Rye

12

 

 

12

 

 

Whole Rye

15

75

125

215

 

 

Water

23

147

208

378

167%

 

 

 

 

 

605

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Scald

 

 

 

 

 

 

Whole Rye

104

 

 

 

 

 

Malted Rye

 

 

 

 

 

 

Molasses

41

 

 

 

 

 

Boiling Kvas

272

 

 

 

 

 

Ground coriander

3

 

 

 

 

 

 

420

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sponge

 

 

 

 

 

 

Rye Sour

552

 

 

 

 

 

Scald

420

 

 

 

 

 

 

972

 

 

 

 

 

Final dough

 

 

 

 

 

 

Whole Rye

207

 

 

 

 

 

KA Bread Flour

138

 

 

 

 

 

Salt

10

 

 

 

 

 

Sponge

972

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Final

Sour

Scald

Total

Percent

 

Whole Rye

207

196

104

506

 

 

Dark Rye

 

11

 

11

 

 

KA Bread Flour

138

 

 

138

21%

 

Water

 

345

 

345

94%

 

Kvas

 

 

272

272

 

 

Malt

 

 

0

0

 

 

Molasses

 

 

41

41

 

 

Salt

10

 

 

10

 

 

Coriander

 

 

 

3

 

 

Sponge

972

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

552

420

1327

 

 

Sour factor

0.91

 

 

 

 

 

Feed starter as above

At second feeding, make the scald

Leave overnight (15 minutes short of 10 hours)

Mix scald and starter

Ferment for just over 4 hours

Add final ingredients - mix by hand until blended

Ferment for 1 hour

Note that paste was very fluffy and aerated at this point

Spoon into greased bread pan.   Smooth down with wet spatula

Spray top with water and do so at intervals (Mini's suggestion)

Using spatula, separate top edge of bread from pan (Mini's suggestion)

Cover with Pullman top

Proof for 2 hours 5 minutes

Note -Very bubbly and starting to get holey on top

Oven preheated to 550F for 1 hour - steam pan for last 30 minutes of preheat

Put bread in oven and bring temperature back to 550  (Note I was too worried to cover it for first 15 minutes since it had risen so much during proof - I could have though)

Then reduce to 350F

Bake for 1 hour 15 min (without top for first 15 minutes with top for an hour)

then remove steam pan, remove bread from pan and bake for 30 minutes

Note that uncooked dough weight was 1275 so lost 52g in between steps

Tastewise, and despite the fact that I used canned Kvas rather than roasted rye malt, this was the best yet.   Absolutely delicious, with sort of a tart, tangy taste overlaid on the (freshly ground) coriander, malt, and molasses.   Addictively delicious.   Watch out.  

 

As for the miche, I have been wanting to follow David's SFBI miche for awhile now, but lacked what I thought was a suitable flour.   When push came to shove, though, my thinking and flour had deviated too much, so I'll just say that I was inspired by David's miches.

First the flour:  I don't seem to be able to find high extraction flour around here, short of milling it myself.   So I decided to sift.   My first try was unsuccessful and essentially I had whole wheat flour.   So I decided to buy a better sieve.  

That made a big difference.   For this miche, I started with 360g of whole wheat flour, generated 30g of bran, and 30g went missing.   So I can't calculate the extraction but it looked good.   Then I followed David in using only half high extraction.   In my case, I used KA Bread Flour as the other half.   

But before I could get to actually making a SFBI miche, I had to pursue a different line of thought.  I was somewhat startled the other day, when I made a Pain Au Levain with no Stretch and Fold whatsoever.   I am totally imprinted on Hamelman - he says Stretch and Fold, so I Stretch and Fold.    But my curiousity was piqued.     This time I decided to make up a very wet dough and develop it in the mixer for as long as it took and then again no Stretch and Fold.    So I made up an 83% hydration dough and mixed it in my humble Kitchen Aid - first at speed 1 for 35 minutes, and then at speed 2 for 10 minutes, with plenty of scrape downs along the way.   The dough came together quite nicely and strongly at the 45 minute mark.    Then I let it bulk ferment without touching it for  3.5 hours, and continued on my way.

Given the hazards of working with such wet dough, then I stumbled.   I proofed in a big ceramic bowl dusted with flour, but it was too big, so I had to basically drop the dough out of it onto the peel.   This compressed the bottom of the loaf a bit.   Worse yet, it snagged on the peel when I "slid" it into the oven.   To heck with the shape.   Despite all that, I think the crumb came out very nicely.   Undoubtedly it would have been quite different had I done a shorter mix, and a few stretch and folds.    But I kind of like this result.  

 

Comments

eliabel's picture
eliabel

Varda, your bread looks stunning! Maybe the crumb is bit too pale, I imagine it is because the concentration of the RRM (red rye malt) in the kvas drink is too low in comparison with the kvas concentrate. But you say, it tastes extremely good. The crust is very good indeed.

And your experiment with the kvas-drink is very interesting. I'll find a way to tell my baking friends from the Russian internet about it.

varda's picture
varda

Eliabel,   I'm certainly interested to know what your Russian baker friends will think.   You are probably right that the Kvas gives a lower concentration of rye malt.   But really delicious.   I think I will try this again even if it's not correct.   Thanks for all your help.  -Varda

isand66's picture
isand66

Great write-up Varda.  Looks like your Borodinsky came out great.

varda's picture
varda

so much Ian.   -Varda

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

Now you have ruined it all for me.  I thought for sure, absolutely sure and I was looking forward to it by the way, that for me to get a decent Borodinski I would have to trravel to Russia visiting an old construction friend or visiting Andy in Northumberland or Phil in Brisbane.  Now all I have to do is go to Mass and go do some shopping Kvas in a Russian store or steal your fine looking bread while I am there - and you are not looking.  I am holding you personally responsible for ruining my future fine, virtuous visions, of thrilling travel to extremely exotic and pleasant places.  I won't forget it but I might bake it.  But, I will do it with real Red Rye Malt - not that mine isn't already real - even if it isn't :-)

Nice breads Varda.  Can't believe the WFO missed this bake? 

varda's picture
varda

DA, Cold weather came back.  I was surprised and delighted to find such a delicious loaf of Russian bread in a local bakery.   The customers other than me were conversing in Russian with the store clerk, so I was a bit of an interloper.   Immigration is so wonderful.   Since my bread habit took over my life, I've shopped in Armenian, Irani, Korean, Indian, and now Russian groceries in the area, trying to source the right ingredients.    Next time I'll make roasted rye malt again, and you can go to Russia.   Thanks so much for your comments.  -Varda

Janetcook's picture
Janetcook

Hi Varda,

I love reading about your journey with this loaf.  From reading the label on the kvas it looks as though it is similar to altus from a bread made with roasted rye malt and rye flour with a lot of water and sugar added.

How fun that you were able to hunt it down.  Always feels rewarding to find a tough ingredient.

The resulting bread looks great!  I will have to tuck you formula away with the last one you baked and someday I will get back to it...

At the moment I am baking rye breads with a lot less rye in them - In fact I thought of you yesterday when I made the Jewish Deli Rye out of ITJB.  I had just mixed it up and ground some corn to sprinkle on the pp. before placing the shaped loaves onto it.  After I had shaped it I marveled at how easy it was to shape compared to my last bake of this same loaf....I toyed with the idea of sprinkling the ground  corn on the top to attempt a Titzel loaf but decided against it.  I had it all tucked away in the proofing box and had just sat down to eat a relaxed lunch when I realized that I had totally skipped the bulk ferment step!  I had to chuckle at myself.  I took the loaves out of the PB and scraped them off of the pp paper and squished them into one large ball and then allowed them to do their bulk ferment in peace....The loaves did have ground corn in them after all as it is impossible to scrape anything off of wet rye dough :-).  The loaves turned out great despite my error....thankfully dough is very forgiving!

Anyway, thanks for the post and the photos of your latest bake.  It looks wonderful!

Take Care,

Janet 

varda's picture
varda

Janet, I was saying the other day that I thought my bread with rye malt tasted like beer.   Well the kvas tasted like bread, and now as you are pointing out, it is because it is made with bread.    Great story about rescuing your bread from a premature proof.   Wonder what would have happened if you left it.   I have always been perplexed by the difference between fermenting and proofing.   Thanks so much for your comments.  -Varda

 

Janetcook's picture
Janetcook

Varda,

I was going to leave the dough as it was to see what would happen without a bulk but after about an hour and only horizontal activity - I had shaped the dough into free standing batards - I simply couldn't stand to watch it's demise any longer.

Dough was still pretty solid at that point too so I knew nothing much was happening and that it could go on for hours and would probably result in mega frizbees....I didn't want that to happen as I LOVE the aroma of this recipe as it bakes :-)

Without a bulk ferment in loaves with whole wheat they turn out denser and probably a lot tangier....figure it is just like feeding a leaven with some 'extras' added.  If you feed a small amount of leaven a lot of new food it takes longer for it to adjust (lag phase) and then get down to the business  If you were to take the same leaven and feed it new food before it had adjusted etc. to the previous feed the same thing would happen.  Essentially you have a lot of food for only a small amount of beasties and yeasties....

So, along  those same lines, if you were to skip straight to the proofing stage you are taking a small amount of yeasties and beasites and giving them a whole lot of new food to get through.  Takes them a long time to accomplish what we 'employ' them to do.

On the other hand, when we bulk ferment the same amount of dough we have a lot more y & b working for us to get the job done in the proofing stage and the dough is already partially fermented which results in a softer and more open crumb with a milder flavor in whole wheat loaves.  Not sure how it would turn out with BF or AP and I know ryes can skip the fermenting stage - or at least have a very short one....

I am sure you already know all of this too....I was typing it out more for myself - following the logic which could well be totally wrong :-0.  Figure if it is wrong someone will jump in and set me straight :-)

Take Care,

Janet

 

varda's picture
varda

but I am not sure this is it.   This is not an issue of feeding after Bulk Ferment.   So I'm not sure the starter analogy works.    Maybe after mix, the dough wouldn't be able to hold a shape over a period of say five plus hours, and it has to reach a certain level of fermentation prior to shaping so it doesn't decay into a sloppy pool.  I have heard people distinguish between the two as saying bread is developing flavor during the BF - yeasts multiplying with bacteria that are generating acids.   Then puffing up with CO2 during the proof.   But of course it is doing both during both.   I tried to ask this question ages ago and people gave a lot of answers to other questions - all good.   So if I let BF go late, should I then skimp on proofing and vice versa?    I think the answer is no, but I'm not sure why.   -Varda

Janetcook's picture
Janetcook

Varda,

Thank you!  You are making me pay closer attention to how I try to put into words what I witness when making breads :-)

I forgot about the flavor piece because it wasn't foremost on my mind due to the fact that the rye loaf I was working on uses 2 builds of the leaven over a 24 hr period and I included an overnight soaker with the remaining grains prior to combining the two....I knew the flavor had already been more than developed and that what would probably result would be structural as well as too much sour due to the time it would have taken the dough to rise had I let it simply proof without the bulk ferment period....

By using 100% whole grains, wy leavens, soakers and overnight retarding of most of my breads I don't concern myself much with flavor development during bulk fermentation.  My focus is more on the aeration of the dough to help 'lighten' up my loaves....I'm using the time to help establish a new bunch of baby yeasties and beasties so then that group goes on to expand even more in the proofing stage....lots more air in the final result and structure stays intact as it is a shorter 'sitting' time for the dough...if that makes better sense....not sure it does though...so much for my reasoning.

Better quit while I am ahead - or not so burried in my own perceptions :-)

Take Care,

Janet

PiPs's picture
PiPs

Hi Varda,

By golly that borodinsky sounds fantastic. Love the addition of the Kvas ... can only imagine the flavour that would bring. yum, yum, yum!

Are you happy with the flavour of the miche? ... the crumb has lovely translucence and colour. Sorry to hear about the dramas getting it into the oven though ... I think you did a pretty great job of salvaging it :)

... so will there be more borodinsky?

Cheers,
Phil

varda's picture
varda

I think the kvas did give a really nice subtle flavor to the bread.   Maybe the right thing would be kvas and rye malt or at least something to try.   The miche was delicious.   It was a nice hearty bread without being overly whole wheaty.   Next time I would proof in a shallower bowl and put it on parchment paper.   And definitely more borodinsky.   I love the mix of strong flavors.  Thanks so much for commenting.  -Varda

ananda's picture
ananda

Lovely baking Varda,

You have obviously mastered the 3 stage process making the sponge in between, as there is so much fermentation activity evident from your description.

I tend to think the formula will end up short of Red Rye malt using the Kvas, but it has still worked well in the finished bread.

Like Phil, I'm impressed with the Miche crumb given you had all those problems loading it to the oven.

Very best wishes

Andy

varda's picture
varda

Hi Andy,   Of course I don't know whether I just had a better result with the fermentation regardless of the kvas, or if the kvas was critical.    But I agree that I probably didn't get quite the rye malt flavor as called for.   Next time I will try DA's method to see if I can control the toasting of the rye malt better.    And/0r buy some kvas concentrate as eliabel suggested.   Red rye malt doesn't seem to be available in these parts.    With the miche, I partly was trying to play with high extraction flour, and partly seeing if I could get a well fermented crumb without stretch and folds.   Despite my handling difficulties I think I was able to do that, perhaps by sacrificing a more open crumb with the long mix.    Thanks so much for your comments.  -Varda

Syd's picture
Syd

Nice borrowskadinksky and great crumb on the miche.  You omitted to tell us what it tasted like.  That SFBI miche is one of my all-time  favourite loaves.  I agree:  a longer toasting of the red rye malt will bring out more flavour and more colour.  Look forward to your next experiment.

Syd

varda's picture
varda

Sort of a mild whole wheaty sourdough.   It went quickly.   I will make it again.    Next time I won't drop it or snag it.    The borrowskadinsky was delicious.    So much flavor it makes other things seem drab in comparison.    I must have it every day.   But I wish someone would make it for me on at least some of those days.    What have you been making lately - that's the important question.   -Varda

Syd's picture
Syd

The borrowskadinsky was delicious.    So much flavor it makes other things seem drab in comparison.    I must have it every day.  

Now that has piqued my interest. That good, huh?  I have only made a 100% percent rye loaf twice before (both of them Mini's recipe which includes bread spices of which coriander is a big ingredient) and I have to say it is outstanding bread. Dense, but packed with flavour. Goes so well with cured meats, cream cheese, pickles. just about anything. I really loved it, but I was the only one in my family that felt that way. I guess I am going to have to educate them more!

What have you been making lately - that's the important question.   -Varda

I have had precious little time to bake of late.  Once a week, if I am lucky. Once every other week, if I am not.  But when I have been baking I have been fixated on San Francisco style all-white sourdough.  I had five attempts at a recipe from the Handbook of dough Fermentations.  Not one of them produced even a remotely sour bread.  So I gave it all up and tried my own recipe.  It worked but it needs a bit more tweaking. Will post soon. Then maybe I will try an unpronounceable.

Best,

Syd