The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

Revisiting my German rye/wheat formula

Juergen Krauss's picture
Juergen Krauss

Revisiting my German rye/wheat formula

During the last two weeks I revisited the formula posted earlie in my blog:

with some modifications in flour composition.

Each time I return to this formula I am amazed about the eae of the mix and bake and the richness and quality of the outcome.

I won't repeat the whole process here, just as a reminder:

1. Preferment with wholegrain or medium rye, 80% hydration, 10% of mature starter, ripe after ca. 12 hours.

2. Fairly short mix, if using yeast the bulk proof is about 30 to 60 minutes, the final is 60 to 90 minutes.

I used the Shipton Mill Irish Soda Bread flour for the first time - it's a high extraction flour which has still bits of bran in it - that is why I call it "almost wholegrain wheat" in my formulas. A miche using this flour only is on my TODO list.


Added a comment with another take on this formula (30% rye), now with crumb shot:

Here some pictures:

This bread is based on the "Mischbrot" with 50% rye.

Here the straight formula:

Wholegrain Rye 23% ( used in preferment)

Medium Rye 27%

Wholegrain Spelt 20%

(Almost) Wholegrain Wheat 21% (Shipton Irish Soda Bread flour)

Bread flour 8%

Salt 2%

Instant Yeast 0.3%

The process is as in the above post.

Below a crumb shot:

Very deep, rich flavor, and a surprising lightness.

The following pictures shows the results of another bake, from left:

40% rye with wg rye in the starter, medium rye and bread flour for the remaining flours (scaled at 750g)

70% rye with wg rye in the starter, medium rye and Shipton's Irish Soda Bread flour for the rest (scaled at 750g)

An experiment with desem type starter, 100% wg wheat (scaled at 1500g)

Here the crumb shots, from left:

70% rye, 40% rye, WW

The details:

70% Rye - straight formula

Wholegrain Rye 28% (from preferment at 80% hydration)

Medium Rye 42%

(Almost) Wholegrain Wheat 30%


Salt 2%

Instant Yeast 0.3%

40% Rye straight formula:

Wholegrain Rye 20% (from preferment at 80% hydration)

Medium Rye 20%

Water 72%

Bread Flour 60%

Salt 2%

Instant Yeast 0.3%

100% Wholegrain Wheat with desem starter

I built the preferment with wholegrain wheat at 50% hydretion, inoculated with a small amount of rye starter, over two elaborations (24 hours each at ca. 18C ambient temperature).

The straight formula I used:

Wholegrain Wheat 100%

Water 75%

Salt 2%

Flour from preferment: 30%

Bulk proof ca. 2 hours, final 3 hours, at ca. 24C

This was a first try, and I am pleased with it. It developed a great wheaty taste after three (!) days.



Syd's picture

Wow! Nice scoring.  And great crumb, too.  All in all, very handsome looking loaves.



Juergen Krauss's picture
Juergen Krauss

Syd, The scoring of the 70% loaf always goes a bit wild with so much bran in the dough (my rye is quite coarse). This time it made for a great effect.

I updated the post with a crumb shot and the details of the second batch.

Thanks again,


ananda's picture

Hi Juergen,

Thank you for showcasing a range of lovely breads.

I take it that the Shipton flour has not been treated with Bicarb.   It is unclear on the website.   This would not be conducive to creating good bread.

Regarding the Desem, have you invested in a mill of late?   It is a bread I've wanted to make since first reading Wing and Scott's book "The Bread Builders" some years ago.   However it appears that it is all built around using freshly ground wholewheat flour, and I very rarely have access to a mill.

All very good to see and read about; very best wishes


Juergen Krauss's picture
Juergen Krauss

Hi Andy,

Your kind words are very much appreciated.

From reading Shipton's web page I somehow got the impression that it is just flour, not a baking mix.

It has quite a soft feel to it, and it seems to perform nicely. I'll put it to the test on its own on next weekend.

With regards to the desem, I didn't do much research. I got inspired by some recent posts, and as I don't like the taste and smell of my wg wheat starters at room temperature too much (I always get the feeling they are slightly out of balance, although they perform well) I just was intriegued by the cool fermentation of a fairly dry mix. Suepke says 24C is cold for sourdough, the desem I read needs 18C or below. And at 50% there should be plenty of acetic acid.

True. This was the most vinaigry thing I made so far.

But the finished loaf was well balanced, quite mild, actually, and developed its taste over the course of 3 days.

On day 4 ALL my bread in my box was mouldy due to our current crazy weather.

Anyway, I'll use this method in the future if I want to make wg starters, and I'll do more research about desem.

I have got an old Jupiter handmill and would be ok to grind small amounts of grain (I broke one in the past attaching an electric drill - I now appreciate the limits ...)

Thanks again for your inspirations,



AnnaInMD's picture

Great scoring, great rise.  Perfect !  :)



Juergen Krauss's picture
Juergen Krauss

This is it!

My parents liked it very much.

Thank you, Anna.

Juergen Krauss's picture
Juergen Krauss

For this one I used the process for 30% rye in the blog I cited above, with the following modifications:

1. No added yeast, it was hot in our kitchen (28C)

2. I used wholegrain rye for the starter and medium rye for the rest of the mix.


Here is the crumb:

The loaf:

wally's picture

Thanks for posting and for sharing your recipes.  Nice scoring and great looking crumb you achieved on all three.


Juergen Krauss's picture
Juergen Krauss

it caused a bit of a stir among my customers at the office.

Thank you, Larry, for your kind words.

I enjoyed your "Rye or Rut" post.


beth08's picture

Dear Juergen, I'm quite a novice at baking breads but slowly getting there. Whenever I'm in Germany (and I go there quite often due to work), I love the breads. Especially dark sourdough varieties. The formula you shared for 70% looked very interesting because it only has rye and wholewheat flours (I stopped buying white flour years ago and try to avoid baking/consuming food items that have it as I can see no nutrional value in it). I got a question for you about this 70% formula and again please excuse my ignorance:

Can you incorporate a sourdough starter to this 70% formula to get the 'sour' taste and if you did how would the sourdough formula be like?

Thanks in advance...

Juergen Krauss's picture
Juergen Krauss

are all sourdough based.

Beth, thank you for your interest in this formula. Do you have a rye starter going? 

I will post the full formula later today.


beth08's picture

I've been quite successful with rye starters based on the starter that is also available on this site ( So, yes I have a rye starter.

I really appreciate your help and taking the time to post the whole formula. For a novice like me, formula that is based only on %s do get confusing with no additional information:)))

Juergen Krauss's picture
Juergen Krauss

70% Rye with Wholewheat 

Rye Starter

Wholegrain Rye Flour 280g

Water 224g

Mature Starter 28g

Leave fermenting for 16 hours at 28C


Wholegrain Rye or Medium Rye Flour 420g

Wholegrain Wheat Flour 300g

Water 526g

Salt 20g

Instant Yeast 3g

1 hour bulk fermentation, 1 hour final proof. 

That's it.

Happy Baking,


beth08's picture

I really appreciate you taking the time to post the whole formula. I plan to bake this bread this weekend.

Juergen Krauss's picture
Juergen Krauss

hearing about your bake.

If you have any further questions, please don't hesitate to ask.