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An attempt at making my first raisin water yeast,

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jyslouey's picture
jyslouey

An attempt at making my first raisin water yeast,

My raisin water yeast using 100grm of sultanas and a few small slices of granny smith apple at 9:00 p.m.  I hope it works...

Raisin (Sultana) water after 27 hrs, The sultanas have become so plump I'm wondering if they can float at all.

Into my 46 hr and not much change in activity.  The sultanas have plumped up so much I had to remove some and add a tad more water plus a tsp of raw sugar to give it a boost.  I hope I haven't messed this up.

 

 4th day and still no sign of any bubbles,  the sultanas have only gotten even bigger and too plump to float,  I'll give it till Fri.  by which time  if nothing happens, this is going down the drain.  :( 

 

 I gave my bottle a few vigorous shakes and lo and behold, I'm beginning to see a few bubbles on the sides of the raisins and some stuff rising to the top (they looked more like tiny particles from the broken up raisins than tiny bubbles)  but I did see some tiny bubble on the skin of some of the sultanas.  I decided then to do a test as suggested  using 15 grms flour & 15 grms yeast water.  The contents came to just half way down the 1/4 mark calibration at 11:00 a.m. 

 After one week and numerous attempts at resuscitating my yeast water with occasional feeds of raw sugar, I can now pronounce my yeast water dead and gone.  On the other hand my new raising yeast water is looking good and is showing some promising signs.

 

 

 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Don't have it tight or even light tight, better yet, go with a saucer, inverted small bowl or plastic wrap and loose rubber band.  If gasses build up inside the jar and can't escape, you will have glass all over the place!  


Nice looking water.  It will work.  Don't worry.   Is this your first?  (Are you a yeast water virgin?)  :)

jyslouey's picture
jyslouey

Thanks so much for the warning.  I'll  put Gladwrap around the mouth the next time I give it a shake.  It smells heavenly, esp. with the granny smith apples.  I've never tried this before and find that this is easier to experiment with than making a sourdough starter.  If it fails, I'll only lose a handul of raisins, unlike my sourdough starter where I threw out more than 700 grms of good flour!!  I can't wait to see the bubbles!!  Cheers, Judy

jyslouey's picture
jyslouey

Thanks so much for the warning.  I'll  put Gladwrap around the mouth the next time I give it a shake.  It smells heavenly, esp. with the granny smith apples.  I've never tried this before and find that this is easier to experiment with than making a sourdough starter.  If it fails, I'll only lose a handul of raisins, unlike my sourdough starter where I threw out more than 700 grms of good flour!!  I can't wait to see the bubbles!!  Cheers, Judy

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

Hi Judy,


All the best with this! I know it took my raisin yeast water about 4 days to get going, but it smells luscious and is a good raising agent. I'm glad you are enjoying this type of yeast.


With best wishes, Daisy_a

jyslouey's picture
jyslouey

I'm always eager to learn more from other people's successes. I failed terribly working with a sourdough starter but hopefully I'll be able to produce a decent loaf using this method. 


Judy

breadbythecreek's picture
breadbythecreek

anything new to share?

jyslouey's picture
jyslouey

I'm only into my 2nd day (I started it on Thursday at 9:00 p.m.) and earlier this evening (picture included) I had to take out some raisins as it was looking rather cramped.  I'm not sure if I'm doing the right thing though. The temp. here in HK is quite warm @ 28C so it should work well, provided that I've not done anything to spoil it in the last two days.

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

Hi Judy,

I don't believe there is any reason to think that you have messed this up! It can be up to 4 days before fermentation is apparent and then it has quite obvious signs, like the raisins/sultanas rising to the top of the jar.

It is worth testing its raising power at this point, because, as with sourdough, it may need to develop further before it can raise bread.

Ron really helped me when I was at this point by suggesting I make a test levain of around 50g of flour at the hydration I was aiming to make bread at, mark it off in a glass and see how long it takes to rise. Maybe you have thought of this yourself, but I found it really useful.

Cannot seem to find the icon to load pictures at the moment,but the pictures of the jar 'before' and 'after' are on this post:

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/20693/culturing-growing-and-baking-range-wild-yeasts#comment-146880

Wishing you continued good culturing of these yeasts!

Kind regards, Daisy_A

jyslouey's picture
jyslouey

Akiko did warn about using oiled raisins,  Mine has been sitting in the fridge for ages and has dried up and lost some of its shine so I thought it was OK to use them.  Today I passed by the market and saw exactly the kind of rasisins she suggests (with a bit of white stuff) and so these may or may not work.  Mini O also warned about the lid of the bottle. but if I don't screw on tight, I will I ever hear the "woooosh" sound gives me the indication that its alive.  Should I have kept the lid on until bubbles start to form and then loosen the lid  or would it not matter.  I have now put Glad wrap over the mouth and pricked a few small holes with a skewer.  I keep the lid on but just to cover and not screwed on.  I'll be sure to do a test when I start seeing bubbles.  Judy

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

Hi Judy,

I'm really glad that your yeast water baking is yielding such great results! I didn't want to sow confusion at this point in the chain when you were being mentored more closely by other bakers. However I don't like to leave a direct question unanswered. Personally I have my RWY (now in the fridge), in a screw top jar, which is closed but not screwed tight. I can easily hear the lovely 'woosh' sound it makes when it is fermented. 

Wishing you continued happy baking! Daisy

jyslouey's picture
jyslouey

I now use mason's jar to start a new yeast water(AYW) and when it's done, I switch it to another container with an airtight flip top. The metal cap is not screwed on too tightly but I make sure to screw it tight when I shake it and then release the cap again. Once a week I take it out of the fridge to get it to room temp or longer then feed it with whatever strikes my fancy, sometimes a few more raisins, or spoonful of raw sugar with occasional addition of water. The raisin water has been going for more than a month now and is def. more flexible when it comes to maintenance. How long should one keep a yw going, is there a sign to indicate that it's turning bad other than being too pungent or boozy? My instinct is to throw out some water add a little fresh water to dilute the boozy smell. Is it ok if the raisin yw doesn't fizz anymore when shaken? The new raisins still float to the top after it has come out of the fridge so I'm assuming the water is still active even without too much fizz.?

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

Hi Judy,

Glad to know the RWY is still going well. 

In some of the valuable texts that Akiko kindly translated from the Japanese, I read that some Japanese bakers don't keep a yeast water going longer than a month in the summer or two in the winter. However I also understand that starting a new water is not starting from scratch if the existing one is still healthy, as a couple of tablespoons of the old one can be used to inoculate the new one. This is what I have been doing and the waters started with some of the old have started to ferment more quickly than the original, which was done from scratch. 

I was also worried about signs of the RWY going off. In conversation with other yeast water bakers including Ron and Akiko, I've gleaned that the signs are similar to a sourdough starter going off - a 'rotten egg' smell and visible moulds in the mixture. 

If the mixture is too pungent or boozy I'm sure new water would help. However it may also be a sign that it would appreciate more frequent feeds. I read that some bakers feed every 3-4 days and this very much represents my own RWY's cycle.

I have to say, though, that as your breads are coming out looking really delicious, that you must be producing a healthy yeast water!

Wishing you continued good baking, Daisy_A

breadbythecreek's picture
breadbythecreek

Hi Judy,

I'm surprised you're not seeing any bubbles yet. I started mine the same day you started yours; mine with organic strawberries and navel orange sections.  It is already making my first (slightly pink) bread.  On Saturday I started another one with raisins and apricots and it's bubbling like it is carbonated!  I'm in AZ so it's pretty warm here (almost 80 inside the house) so maybe that is what is moving me along quicker.  Have you tasted the water - does it taste boozey at all?  Curious, these wee beasties.

 

Pamela

jyslouey's picture
jyslouey

It may be that my sultanas aren't organic.  I keep this in my kitchen so it's well above 28C at times when the oven is on or when we're cooking and my kitchen is small.   I used a bit of hot water to rinse the raisins before putting in the cooled boiled water.  I did not use distilled water.  If I have to start over, I may get the smaller raisins that I've seen with the white powdery stuff on the skin and a large bottle of distilled water.  I have plenty of brown raisins at home for baking but I think they are mostly oiled and not organic. 

Did you do a test with your yeast water?    Did you use all your the yeast water to replace the water in the bread recipe or did you make a liquid levain with  bread flour?  If so, how much levain did you make?   I've never worked with a levain before so I have no recipes to go by using this method.  Many thanks.

breadbythecreek's picture
breadbythecreek

Hi Judy- Yesterday am I took 10g strawberry yeast water and mixed it with an equal weight of flour (test levain). Then I let it ferment for about 12 hours. By that time- the strawberry yeast water (syw) in the jug was bubbling

 

raisin yeast water and strawberry yeast water 

like crazy so I added 30 g of the syw and 30 g flour to 15g of the test levain and stirred it up. I also took another 150 g syw and mixed it with 212g bread flour (autolyse). Both the levain and the autolyse went into the wine cooler (54*F) overnight. This am mixed both levain and autolyse and added 5 g salt for dough. Did 3 hour bulk ferment w / s&f every 30 min. Back in cooler overnight for shape, proof and bake tomorrow am (460*F). This is a scaled down version of txfarmer's 36+hr baguette. We'll see how it turns out. So far, looks good. I suspect your raisins are not yeasty enough. Have you tasted the liqueur? Is it at all boozy? All the best. Pamela

 

edited to add picture 

jyslouey's picture
jyslouey

I found some  "all natural unsulphured" dried California cherries in my fridge but it doesn't say that they're organic so I'm a bit hesitant to use these if my sultana yeast water fails.

I tried my yeast water, it's not pungent, it doesn't hit the nose when I smell it, but has a very nice aroma and tastes like a lukewarm fruit juice, not too alcoholic.  Let's wait an see what happens to my levain test later tonight.  Thanks again for sharing your experience and recipe, it will serve as a very good guideline for me. 

jyslouey's picture
jyslouey

Whilst I'm not prepared to pronounce my yeast water dead at this stage, I thought I would start a new one with hopefully the right kind of raisins/sultanas (Australian organic sultanas)  that do not have an oily film and when looked at closely, I see some whitish stuff, added half a tsp of honey and half granny smith apple  for it's refreshing smell and taste.  If it works out this time, I may be able to see some results by the weekend.  Let's wait and see...

breadbythecreek's picture
breadbythecreek

Hi Judy -I bet by tomorrow it'll be bubbling like mad.  On my end, my strawberry bread came out of the cooler this am a little less risen than I am used to with the standard sourdough-not dead, just more reserved.  I left it out on the counter for about an hour before shaping the baguettes and it seemed to wake up some.  Baked in the usual way, the loaves came out with less oven spring than normal, but the interior was significantly more holey and moist and the crust is quite a bit crisper.  In addition, the crumb was darker than it would be from just the amount of whole wheat in the dough. I have to attribute that to the strawberry water as well.  Tastewise, there is not a hint of sour or strawberry, so I guess this would be a good wild yeast method for those who hate the sour in sourdough.

Also, I tasted my strawberry water and boy was it boozy.  I removed about half and added fresh water and about 30g raisin water (which is also tasting boozy but not as much).  I'm out of strawberries so off to the store to replenish my supply.  I hope you decide to try a cherry yeast water - it would smell amazing.

-Pamela

edited

jyslouey's picture
jyslouey

I'm not sure if my cherries would work or not.  They are very sticky and shiny, like prunes.

breadbythecreek's picture
breadbythecreek

Hi Judy-

Good morning.  I'm not entirely certain, but I think that once you have your first water working with the sultanas and the apple slices, you can take a bit of that (like 50cc's from the bottom using a syringe) to kickstart any type of water.  In this case, the dried cherries would be the flavor ingredient and the necessary sugar.  Since the yeast is already present (from the kickstart) all it needs to carry on is sugar and fresh water.  I love the dried cherries we can get here and am anxious to try this out.  Unfortunately, my husband is giving me strange looks about all these jars sitting out, so maybe I'll wait a bit.  How is your levain?

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

Hi Pamela,

Thanks for the picture. That bread does look delicious! Moist crumb and such a lovely golden crust and overall colour. I have also found bread baked with fruit yeast to have a good crisp crust. Ron has suggested that this may be due to the higher sugar content in such yeast. 

From my own online reading of wild yeast traditions I do think one use of fruit yeast is as you say - to produce a less sour or more wheaty flavour in a naturally leavened loaf. That is one of the reason I use it in enriched doughs - I can use a natural yeast but still end up with a sweet dough. The other reason is that I find my RWY to be naturally sugar tolerant.

I can get still get a sourer taste in lean bread, however, by making up a levain of  fruit yeast and flour and letting it mature for about 12 hours before use or keeping one levain mixed with flour and RWY instead of water, while maintaining a separate jar of RWY to be used in place of water when needed in multi-build formulae.

Wishing you more continued good exploration of these yeasts! Good to hear about your breads.

Daisy_A

 

jjainschigg's picture
jjainschigg

Here's a link to a very funny, well-written, and (to my eye) pretty well documented recipe for making yeast-water in the California Prison style.

http://www.blacktable.com/gillin030901.htm

A little vulgar, now that I read all the way down. But honest yeast-science, even so.

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

Hi  jjainschigg,

I was once on the train to work and a young man got on who was fresh out of prison, with little more than the clothes he stood up in. A very interesting conversation started up between the three people in our carriage - the young men, myself and the director of a major charitable trust. The main thing we had in common was that we were all passionate about theatre: the young man felt that taking acting classes in prison was one of the best things he had ever done.

He did also, however, give us  a brief tutorial on how to make prison alcohol. It went more or less the way your text describes, with a few extra tips - hide the liquid in orangeade bottles to lessen the risk of detection and to create a clearer liquid - strain it through your socks....I think they also used porridge oats to potentially add grain alcohol. 

But isn't this hooch - rough, illegal alcohol made with whatever is to hand - rather than fruit yeast for baking?

I've read that fruit yeast water for baking only tends to produce around 1% alcohol and is more similar to kvass. It's unlikely to get you violent drunk.

Moreover application of the two yeast waters differs greatly.  One is obviously used for getting drunk and this can often lead to harming others: the other used for baking bread and often blessing others with it. 

Baking with fruit yeasts is a long and honourable tradition in both East and West....Might some bakers in traditions where baking with fruit yeasts is honoured highly find the comparison with prison liquor an uncomfortable one? 

Daisy_A

 

jjainschigg's picture
jjainschigg

Clearly, this prison liquor is evil stuff, intended for (in the prison context, anyway) illicit use, and in any context, arguably hazardous. I was interested in the article, though, because it reminded me of a couple things I find intellectually- and emotionally-moving as a bread-baker, i.e., as a participant in the long history of nurturing and using microorganisms to do useful things with food.

First, it reminds me that all of us here, everyone in our lineage as bread-bakers, and also these sad prisoners, hillbillies making corn liquor, and my ancestors in the Pale of Russia who made (on alternate days) sourdough bread, yogurt, and kvass for commerce and consumption, are engaged in real science. We're all trying, through numerous experiments, observations, the passing-on and social evaluation of formulae, and other methods, to make dynamic, complex natural phenomena understandable and repeatable. And the fact that -- as represented on this site by recently-quoted scientific articles discussing new discoveries about things like the co-evolution of yeasts and lactobacilli in diverse nutrient media -- we're not even that far from the leading edge of science, though some of the methods and tools we use look 'legacy.'

Second, it reminds me that the systems we're dealing with here -- analogous to the systems at work in composting -- are both remarkably robust, and lead through pathogenesis and decomposition to self-purification and high nutritive value. The inputs, within a broad range, hardly matter. And the output, all things being equal, have a strong tendency to live somewhere on the continuum between 'basically safe to consume' and 'absolutely delicious.' Every time I bring a sourdough starter back from the brink of death (which, sadly, I've done quite a few times this year as kids, career and indolence complicate my baking schedule), I'm reminded that -- again within broad limits -- this process cannot fail. And I'm not even responsible for it succeeding -- the little bugs do it all by themselves, with minimal hand-holding.

Anyway, I thought it was an interesting aside to this discussion. But certainly, I didn't mean it to debase the dialogue or to imply that the work of bakers and liquor-makers is the same, except in the limited sense that both use the same basic ingredients, the same micro-organisms and similar processes to achieve slightly-different results. (grin)

 

 

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

Hi jjainschigg,

Many thanks for glossing this. Your reflections give a much richer context for thought. In fact to me they make a lot more sense than the article's contextualisation of the liquour making as funny, because some of the reasons driving the practice seem profoundly sad to me. 

I'm reflecting on the history of bread making, particularly UK bread making and have had some of the same thoughts - namely that long term repetition, development and observation of bread making in domestic and other situations is not 'unscientific' but a long term, shared collection and passing on of complex empirical data. It can also be very creative and a form of shared cultural memory - art and science both!

Best wishes, Daisy_A 

 

 

teketeke's picture
teketeke

Hi jjainschigg,

Thank you for the link that is interesting, too  This is much neater than that I heard from my husband who is a lawyer and deal with a lot of prisoners. He told me that they make liqueur from bread and water... I don't know what the taste is like.. 

Thank you for the information that is interesting. Daisy, Thank you for your story that you had such an interesting experiment!

Best wishes,

Akiko

jyslouey's picture
jyslouey

if it wasn't for the ketchup....

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

ketchup is mostly sugar and tomatoes also make yeast water...  why not?  

I ferment tomatoes -- best way to get at their seeds (gardening) but I believe there is something in the archives under the old yeast water thread.

Bread also ferments well, I feed it to my starter quite often, in fact, regularly. 

jyslouey's picture
jyslouey

but somehow the thought of mixing oranges and ketchup didn't seem too appealing and in this this case, its meant as a drink, eeeyeew..I'm just not the adventurous type I guess...:)

Bee18's picture
Bee18

I can see the first bubbles in my container ! it's awsome.
The question is what should be the quantity of this water yeast if I want to use it to do a SD GL Free ?
Any body knows ?
As recommended by many site I did the SD with brown rice, although they recommended also the Buckwheat but I thought that the rice would be more neutral in flavor. Many people I know get sick when they smell the buckwheat, especially when I cooked it like a side dish from roasted grains (Kasha in Russia and similar country). I love it especially when fried onions and salt are added after the cooking of the grains together with some fat or the roast natural gravy.

Photos on my blog : wwwbreadsandbee18 blogspot

Bee18

RonRay's picture
RonRay

I clicked, but only got to a TFL link via Google, not to photos of any kind...?

Ron

jyslouey's picture
jyslouey

are you looking for?

Ooops, I see you're referring to breadsandbee18's link.

jyslouey's picture
jyslouey

My first raisin yeast water is a goner but the new one that I made two days ago is showing some very promising signs, all the raising are now floating and I see some tiny bubbles rising to the top (but not profusely)  when I give the bottle a shake, when I unscrew the cap, there's a loud "pssst" sound which was lacking in the first one.  I think this time it's going to work.

 

breadbythecreek's picture
breadbythecreek

Glad to hear that it's working for you.  When are you going to bake with it?

-Pamela

jyslouey's picture
jyslouey

I'll give it until tomorrow nite and then do a test with some b/f overnite. If the test levain rises then I could try baking a loaf with it on Sat. or Sun. What should I do with the left over raising, should I add some new raisins to the old, add more water and sugar to start a new one?

jyslouey's picture
jyslouey

I'll wait another day and do a test with some b/f tomorrow nite. If it works, then I could bake something on Sat. or Sunday. What should I do with the left over raisins, should I add some new raisins to the old, plus a bit of sugar and start a new one or throw out the old raisins? Judy

*Double posted because my post kept getting lost when I click on "save", resulting in having to reype everything from scratch.

Janetcook's picture
Janetcook

Don't know if you read what to do at this stage or not but I will tell you what I have done tho' I am new at this too and am not sure what I have done is right.....but I think that whatever any of us do is all part of the learning curve and the best way to learn for me is to DO and observe what happens.

Once my RYW was 'ripe' I removed a lot of the floating raisins but left some in the jar as they weren't all 'spent'.  I noted the aroma of the water.  DaisyA describes it as a rum raisin ice cream aroma.  To me it is a nice sweet smell - not vinegary and no alcohol 'fumes'....

I have kept a bottle on my counter and one in my refrigerator.  I shake both about 3x a day and  each time I check the aroma.

When I begin to smell alcohol I pour out about 1/3 of the water and add fresh water plus a few new raisins - maybe 3 or 4 to the bottle.  (One of my bottles holds about a cup of water which is the one I add 3 or 4 raisins to.)

The bottle I keep in my refrigerator has not had to have any water poured out of it yet and it has been about a week maybe.  I haven't given it any new raisins yet either as there are still several sitting on the bottom of the bottle and it still smells like rum raisin ice cream.

Akiko has written that all the Japanese women that she has read about store their RYW in the refrigerator.  I had wanted to keep mine on the counter the same way I treat my SD but I see now that when left out it is higher maintenance - requires more feeding and because of that there are days where it can't be used for baking because it has to 'recover' from the water change.

The RYW in my refrigerator has remained strong and rises flour twice as fast as my counter one.   

I now know first hand why the Japanese women store their RYW in the refrigerator.

So, in answer to your question - toss out some of the fruit.  Leave a few in your jar.  Check the aroma and condition of the fruit every time you shake/stir your water and add a small amount when things begin to change.  I do not think a lot of 'food' is required to keep this WBBs alive and happy especially if kept in the refrigerator.

If you goof up you know it is pretty easy to start over again and making mistakes is how I learn!   Sometimes I make the same mistake numerous times before I 'get it'  :-)

Janet

 

 

jyslouey's picture
jyslouey

I dumped all my raisins except for a few pcs which luckily is all it needs. I used 50 grms to make my bread so I simply put back 50grms to top it up and threw in a few more grapes and a tsp of raw sugar to keep it alive. I bake only once a week so a twice weekly feeding would be sufficient? The yeast water gets cloudy when I shake it but smells sweet, as you say, like rum raisin ice cream but not vinegary or smell of beer, although when mixed with the bread flour, it does give out a slight beery smell. I'd like to continue to experiment with more options and it's a lot more easier than maintaining a sourdough. I'm on the look out for more recipes using this particular method. It's basically making a preferment only not with yeast and I wonder if normal breads calling for a preferment with water and flour can be adapted accordingly by just skipping the yeast in the preferment.

Can you pls tell me how long it took for your bulk fermentation and whether you kept it in the fridge or not. I didn't keep mine in a fridge as I want to monitor this in room temp. If I kept it in the fridge, fermentation slows down altogether hence I won't know if the yeast is active or not since it only my first time to use this water. Thanks. - Judy

Janetcook's picture
Janetcook

Morning,

I don't think you need to keep feeding you YW fresh fruit AND sugar.  I think one source is sufficient BUT I am very new to this and am only feeding mine raisins and both are doing just fine.  

Refrigerated YW only needs to be fed maybe 1x a week or every 10 days....I am still experimenting on this front so you will just have to keep observing your jars and going from how they 'behave'. :-)

I bake only once a week so a twice weekly feeding would be sufficient? 

I think you will just have to check the aroma.  If it is cooler - 1x a week is probably enough but if it warms up - you might need 2x a week.  I know you have read RonRays contributions to this arena and I know he has feeding information based on the jars he keeps out in his proofing box and the ones he keeps cooler in his wine refrigerator.  His findings will be way more accurate than mine!

Can you pls tell me how long it took for your bulk fermentation and whether you kept it in the fridge or not.

 

Before I used my RYW I did do a leaven build.  I built it up and treated it just like a regular SD.  I have gotten mixed results and have only baked 3 loaves with my YW.  (Did 3 and then went back using my regular SD so my family could have bread that didn't surprise them :-)

The loaf that turned out the best was a Yogurt Yeast Bread that Akiko posted on one of the threads from last winter.  I think it is the one about baking with YW if you check the search box.

I followed her outline in making the loaf.  The final bulk fermentation was done in the refrigerator for 9 hours.  I took it out and let it warm up for 2 hours before shaping and then it proofed for about 1.25 hours.  

I can't give you ANY exact temps. for these times because I just let my loaves sit out at room temp.  which is usually about 70°.

If I want to speed things up I put my loaves in the oven with the light turned on and the temp. will stay at about 75°.  I like to proof between 70° and 75°......for no particular reason other than I am used to that and the time it takes.   I am around all day so I just peek at it every once in awhile to see how it is doing.  If it is slower than I want I will add heat.  If it is rising faster than I want I will put it somewhere cooler....no rhyme or reason - all based on my day's schedule.

I am going back and trying a loaf today out of a book by Jan Hedh titled 'Swedish Breads and Pastries'.  (Check you local library for a copy.)

The builds began yesterday to make sure my RYW was active.  The RYW that I have stored in my refrig. was stronger than the one I have been keeping at room temp. and I think that is due to the fact that I had just added fresh water about a day or two before.  You have to let it build up strength again and I think I just used it too quickly....BUT Akiko has always said that all the Japanese women who bake with YW say to keep it in the refrig.    Now I see for me that was the case this time!

There are several basic loaves posted here:

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/20693/culturing-growing-and-baking-range-wild-yeasts

(This is the link I was referring to above and it contains a wealth of information and it includes other sites you can search as well.)

I think once you bake a basic recipe all this will make more sense.

I know I was totally overwhelmed with all the reading as I simply do not do well trying to learn by reading when I have no PHYSICAL experience with the subject being taught.  Once I began to get the hang of this it came together and now I can read what has been written and it makes a whole lot more sense to me!

You are going about this pretty much the way I did.....you are doing it and observing.  Keep at it and I am thinking it will all gel and you will be on your way :-)

Now that I am where I am at in the process I see it really is just like using my SD.  It just has a different origin.....fruit instead of flour!

The only other difference is that the YW is used in the first build before baking.  I have always done a couple of builds prior to using my starters in a leaven so this is routine for me. I always do my builds at room temp. It lets me see how active it is and by 2nd build it is generally ready for the final build which then is my leaven....which is where I am at today with using my RYW.

BUT please note ------ I have only baked 3x with my RYW!!!!  Today is my 4th time....

Akiko, Ron and Daisy helped me out immensely.  As far as I am concerned they are the EXPERTS here and I am sooooo glad they took the time to post all that they have.

Good Luck and I hope some of what I have written helps you...

Janet

jyslouey's picture
jyslouey

Once the yw is ready my bottle stays in fridge as I have a slight problem with tiny ants.  Once a week feeding sounds even better to me!  I'm unable to monitor the build as I'm at work during the day so  I may have to change my schedule to doing a test when I know I can be home to keep an eye on it. I had thought that once the initial test with the yw works then as long as I keep it going,  Iwill not need to do further tests so now I know I can't always assume :)    Should I replenishing it with water as soon as I have taken some out for baking  or  add water  only when I'm about to give it a feed?   

Why is a 2nd build necessary and is there a diffeence in procedure to the first build? I think this could have been the one part that I got a little lost when reading some of the posts where it started to be more technical and also had to do with ratios?  - Judy     

Janetcook's picture
Janetcook

I know from using SD that doing a couple of builds strengthens the rising power of the leaven.  The yeast are more alert :-0....

I imagine it does the same with YW.

You will have to experiment doing both techniques and see what your results are.  I use home ground ww flours so my results will be different and I live at 5280' which changes things.  

I think by trying different methods  you will find what you like the taste of the best and what works into your schedule the easiest too.

Just mix up a test batch at night when you get home from work.  If your YW is really strong and you put it in a warm place it should rise in 4-5 hours and then, before you go to bed you can do a second feed.

For the first feed I generally do a 1:1 proportion.  Than just means for whatever amount of YW you use - mix in the same amount of flour.  Some people use different proportions so there is no hard and fast rule that I am aware of.

For the second feed I generally us the food so it takes longer to rise.  The amount varies depending on how much leaven I need in my final dough.  Let's just say you take 2og from the first leaven build and add 40g filtered water and then 60g flour.  That would read 1:2:3  (starter is the first #: water is the 2nd # and flour is the 3rd).  

This thread explains it pretty well and it easy to understand too :-)

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/9346/123-easy-formula-sourdough-bread

My goal when doing builds is to end up with the exact amount of leaven I need to bake with so I choose my amounts for each build with that in mind.

Just remember....the more food (flour) you give your yeasties the longer it will take them to ripen the dough.  Also the amount of water you add effects the rise time.  Using more water = quicker ripening time.  Using less = longer ripening time. 

And I am sure you know about temp. and how it impacts time.....hotter = quicker.......cooler = slower....

So you have lots of variables to play around with :-)

Good Luck :-)

Janet

 

jyslouey's picture
jyslouey

and the link to making a sourdough bread.  You prompted me to do a test again after reading your earlier post as I added more water and grapes to my yw after baking my first loaf.  The result was amazing.  I prepared  this at around 10:00 p.m. before I went out at 10:30 a.m. using normal b/f @ 20 grms 1:1 (last time the test was with ww  using only 15 grms) and by 4:00 p.m. when I came home it had tripled.  I should really have stayed home to monitor this as it could have tripled in less than 6 hrs. but at least I know that my newly refreshed yw is active   

Voila!!  Now I'm off to do a little more reading re 2nd build etc.  Many thanks.

And now for a look at my 40 grm levain 2 to which I adced 20 grsm b'f and 20 grms water.  This was set up at 11:00 p.m. and it rose more than double after 2 hrs.

 

jyslouey's picture
jyslouey

For the second feed I generally us the food so it takes longer to rise.  The amount varies depending on how much leaven I need in my final dough.  Let's just say you take 2og from the first leaven build and add 40g filtered water and then 60g flour.  That would read 1:2:3  (starter is the first #: water is the 2nd # and flour is the 3rd).  

Where you mention 2nd feed, this would be all of the 1st feed plus 2x water and 3 x flour and then you let it sit overnight again until it has risen and that would eventually be added into the main dough?

What I have done was to follow a simple recipe where it specified how much levain to make / how much yeast water to use to replace the normal water,  but in the absence of a recipe, how do you determine how much levain to make/use in the final dough?  Would it be similar to following a recipe using a liquid sourdough starter  and treating the yw levain as such, i.e. replacing the liquid sourdough starter by adding the same amt  of  yw levain to the bread flour specified in a given recipe and skipping the yeast altogether?  I apologize if I'm bombarding you with all these questions but unlike you who is familiar with SD, I have no experience with starters and SD have idea how it works.  I've always been using the direct method and have only just recently learnt to bake with a preferment!!     SD starters in my opinion is highly sophisticated and complex for beginners like me but I'd be extremly happy if I can make something similar to a sourdough artisan bread using the yw method. - Thank you again for your guidance.  Really appreciate it.  If it wasn't for the advice and encouragement from you,  Ron, Teketeke,  Daisy A, Ruthie G, Pamela,  etc etc. sorry if I have missed any other names)  I don't think I would have come this far and I still have a long way to go.  - Judy

breadbythecreek's picture
breadbythecreek

Hi Judy,

I think once you have done your first test to see if your YW is working and strong, I believe you can proceed with any recipe that calls for SD without alteration with the same amount of YW levain as the SD levain.  Also, the second build (added to all of the first tester build) probably will double in a much faster time than overnight - my last second YW build doubled in about an hour!  Also, I'd replace all of the water called for in the recipe with YW and make sure to adjust the hydration of the YW levain to match the hydration of the SD levain in the recipe (if your YW levain is 1:2:3 (1st tester levain: water: flour), and the SD levain is 100%, you just add 25% more water to the levain and proceed with the recipe).  If you want to convert a recipe that calls for commercial yeast, I think you replace 1/3 of the flour with the levain, adjust for the water and skip the yeast.  

Say the recipe called for 300 grams of flour, 200 grams of water and 2.5 tsp yeast and 5g salt.  I'd make 100 grams of levain (15:35:50), add 241 additional grams of flour and 157 grams of YW water and the same 5g of salt.  The YW and the SD may take longer to rise than the recipe for commercial yeast, but using your experience (when fully risen the doughs are very light and jiggly, using the poke test, the indent will come back very very slowly, better to be underproofed than overproofed).  If you have another recipe that you know well and like and want help with the conversions, send it to me in a message and I'll help you with the maths.

 

Here is my strawberry loaf. All I can say is have you ever had a muffaletta sandwich?  That's about what my loaf looks like -2" tops.  Good crust and crumb but zero spring. I think it was overproofed.  Ah, well, try again. Amazing how dark it is - there is only AP flour in the bread - all the color comes from the strawberry!

-Pamela

edited to include picture

Janetcook's picture
Janetcook

Good Afternoon,

I will try to answer your questions but some are over my head.

First off.....I am a beginner too and follow recipes/formulas.  I think substituting a YW leaven for a SD leaven in the same amounts and hydration level would work but I haven't done it so I can't really speak from experience.  The loaves I did make followed recipes.

Here is an outline for building a leaven that I found on the link I posted above.  In it Akiko explains how to build each stage.  In the end you will have very ripe leaven and you would then just measure out the amount the recipe calls for and use it in your final dough.  The remainder can be stored in your refrig. for a couple of days before it looses it's 'umph'.  

 

I found the way By Okiraku laday who explained it a little bit. So ,I made an example below:

Levain1 - 50 g yeast water  / 50 g flour    (1 :1) 

* You can make stiff dough, too but it will be chaged the levain 2-4's hydration that you achieve.

---6-9 hours or overnight----

Levain2 -  28 g water / 50g flour ( until doubleーtriple in bulk )

Levain3 - 28g water / 50g flour ( until double- triple in bulk)

Levain 4- 28g water/ 50g flour ( until double-triple  in bulk)

Total 334g -- 134g water ( 67% hydration)  200g flour ( 100%)

---Keep it in the refrigerator for 24 hours → leave the levain at room temperature until the dough temperature reaches to the room temperature that you achieve. You made ”LEVAIN" FINALLY :)

* I think that It will have a good result to put the levain in a refrigerator without making levain step2.3.4.

This purpose is that we can taste more flavor, and it also will have more volume in the bread.   * the bulk fermentaion and final proof time will be shorten.

Happy baking,

Akiko

 

The 1:2:3 formula in the other thread I posted can be used with this leaven.  Just use it in place of SD.

I would not use both leaven and YW in the same recipe because of the chance of it overproofing due to all the active cultures in one dough.  The leaven alone should be adequate but I do not really know as my experiences are very limited.  I have baked 4 loaves with my RYW and only one turned out as I expected.....The other 3 didn't rise a lot but the flavor was okay.....

Here is a link to a recipe that just uses YW and a bit of yeast in a poolish that might be an easier way to start;

 

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/23135/whoe-wheat-bread-raisin-yeast-water

 

This link is from RoyRays blog and he goes into a lot of detail on builds and the results of doing it in different combinations.

 

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/23441/yeast-water-amp-other-wee-beastie-bubbles-no-math

 

All that I currently know came from his threads that I have posted above where he was experimenting with AKiko and Daisy and others.  There are recipes posted within the threads that you can follow and I would suggest following a basic one to begin with and bake it several times until you get a feel for what it is you are doing.  DOING is the most important piece here because you will actually see what is happening and what others are writing about.

I don't remember if I added this link and I can't see comments while I write so I am putting it here.  It has a recipe that does use YW leaven AND YW in the same loaf....so it is something you can try.  Search around the site as there are more recipes in there to follow but I would find a basic one and stick to it for awhile until you work the kinks out.

 

http://originalyeast.blogspot.com/2008/02/pain-de-mie.html

 

Yes, SD starters can be a challenge but what's life without self imposed torture? :-)  Might as well challenge yourself and learn a lot while you are doing it.....just be patient.  I only began using SD in the fall and I am only kind of beginning to get the hang of what is happening BUT what happens mostly to me is that I think I finally understand something and they I read something that totally destroys what I thought I understood.....so I am almost back at square one but with a bit of new knowledge...

Just keep having fun......because it is fun and very rewarding to finally get a loaf that tastes just how you want it :-)

Janet

 

breadbythecreek's picture
breadbythecreek

Hi- I just finished baking my second loaf using Ron's My Darling Clementine recipe

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/20693/culturing-growing-and-baking-range-wild-yeasts#comment-144440]

but with my active strawberry yeast water.  My last one was more hockey puck than boule due to overproofing.  I changed the recipe just a little bit by adding all the flour in the autolyse step and just blending in the salt dry after the autolyse (à la Tartine Bread). So, the only water in this recipe comes from my strawberry yeast water jar.  This time too I was able to shorten the retard time to just 12 hours (versus two days) at 46*F, and the result is much more pleasing. Here are some pics.  The crumb is not as open as I would like, and I need to be more careful in my slashing (it kind of exploded on top, with just a single slash down the middle), but the crust is nice and crunchy, and I love the swirl pattern.  Next I'm trying the same with the cherry yeast water. Yum!

RonRay's picture
RonRay

breadbythecreek, you certainly did get an interesting swirl in there.

I added your loaf to the index.

Ron

breadbythecreek's picture
breadbythecreek

to be noticed.  Thanks for all of your hard work and inspiration. I feel that we are kindred spirits with the combined avocations of intense scientific discovery and art.  I love that you graphed the progress of your levain builds on 15 minute intervals for the initial work on this subject. Right up my alley.    I also do figurative art (www.artbythecreek.com) if you are interested.  All the best.

Pamela

RonRay's picture
RonRay

I went through your work - ah, so many hours can go into such efforts, but one seldom considers that LOLThe same "loss of hours" goes into gathering and plotting data, when it is an interesting puzzle one works on.I quite enjoyed viewing your work and went the full loop. Thank you for sharing your work.Ron

breadbythecreek's picture
breadbythecreek

I'm impressed you went through the whole loop, did you go to the associated Flicker page? That's a lot of drawings done over a four year period.  I visited your site as well. You are much more accomplished than I will ever be, I'm afraid. Happy baking.

p.s. my cherry yeast water is much more sluggish than the strawberry. hmm.

-Pamela

RonRay's picture
RonRay

I have never tried Cherry YW - I'll be interested in how that goes. 

I think I saw everything... 309, as I recall, and Flicker pages. It was Flicker that I stepped through the loop.

If you are curious, there are 1,097 fractal art compositions in my (YarNor) galleries on dA - Link:

http://yarnor.deviantart.com/gallery/

Just live forever, and you can do everything ROFL

Ron

breadbythecreek's picture
breadbythecreek

Hi Ron, the cherry YW is based on a bit of the strawberry yeast WB with Trader Joe's dried cherries for food.  The color is a lovely dark red.  In 8 hours 10cc of CYW +10g AP flour has risen to 3X.  It's time for it's next refreshment.  It is definitely my plan to live forever and conquer my understanding of Quantum physics and string theory. I'm starting with teaching myself calculus and working up from there. :-)

-Pamela

RonRay's picture
RonRay

Pamela, it certainly looks good in the photo.

Your temporal strategy sounds like a reasonable start - and with infinite time, it is never too late to change plans LOL

Ron

breadbythecreek's picture
breadbythecreek

So I'm probably only going to make this one loaf. I've just started a dried/frozen blueberry water that smells like it's going to be a winner as well. And at the risk of hijacking the thread- as with quantum theory's universe of infinite simultaneous possibility I may have already conquered this knowledge and am just in the wrong universe to know it!??? ;-). My personal hero is Richard Feynman.

Pamela

RonRay's picture
RonRay

Cherries and Blueberries would make nice additions to references in the index.

"**** am just in the wrong universe to know it!??? "

Or the fairies on that pinhead are just playing with you ROFL

Ron

breadbythecreek's picture
breadbythecreek

Cherry levian is resting in the cooler for the night. More pics tomorrow. Who you callin' a pinhead? ;-)
- Pamela

RonRay's picture
RonRay

 (ô¿~)

jyslouey's picture
jyslouey

Hello Pamela,  I hadn't realised that I had missed all the dialogue on strawberry yw.  Very interesting indeed.  I have some dried cherries but these are like raisins but slightly more sticky. What are your cherries like? Mine may not be the right type of cherries to use  but I did find some almost dark brown turkish apricots which may work, not the bright  orangey yellow that we eat for snacking.  I'm very please with my second bake and I'm working on another loaf for the sake of using up the left-over levain .   This next one is all guess work..  I have more starter than I need (original calls for 100g)  and I have a little over 130 g so I increase my recipe to 200 g (150g  original)  130 bf/35/35 ww & rye.  I will continue to use some walnts but no raisins  as I find them too sweet and overpowers the flavour of the bread while walnut is a good balance.  The strawberries that we have  are either from China or Korea and they lack taste. The US imported ones are quite costly and are better eaten fresh.  Thank for stopping by and sharing your experience using syw.  - Judy

breadbythecreek's picture
breadbythecreek

Hi Judy, Yes, Ron and I had quite a chat yesterday. He is very funny.  Sorry if I hi-jacked your thread on off-topics.  

Based on my limited experience, your cherries will work just fine as long as you jump-start your water at the beginning with a good amount of your active raisin/apple water (stirred up first).  This is the yeast colony that will feed on the available sugars that you will provide from the dried cherries or any other fruit/vegetable/grain of your choosing.  These cherries can be either fresh, dried or frozen. Your cherries or apricots will also work as sugar sources.  These fruits provide the sugar, flavor and aroma that will be present in the bread.  That said, unfortunately, although I'm finding the cherries provide vigorous growth for the levain, gorgeous color to the water, and pinkishness to the dough, they add almost nil in the areas of aroma or flavor.  I'm even trying to add some unsweetened cherry juice to the water, and still, it is not detectable.  The final result is yet to be baked.  In the meantime,  I moved on to blueberries.  I took about 30 ccs of my active strawberry water and added about a cup of dried blueberries and filled the jar to 3/4 full with tap water.  I also threw in a handful of frozen blueberries for good measure.  The color is very dark, the smell is intoxicating. As it is less than a day old, there is very little indication of activity. I have high hopes.

You can see the yeast colony at the bottom of the jar.  For me, it's fun to experiment with this stuff. Keeps me off the streets.

-Pamela

jyslouey's picture
jyslouey

good just as a drink in itself!! My fridge is so full I can't afford to make any more new yeast water until the raisin one is finished but I would love to give it a go. Don't worry abt hi-jacking my thread, I like to be able to find relevant subjs in one thread rather than plow through the old and new ones daily. It's also a good "case study" for newbies who have never tried this before.

The next loaf that I made is good with a soft crumb, not gummy at all but I put a tad too much salt and its a bit salty. I'll be drinking lots of water tonite. :(

breadbythecreek's picture
breadbythecreek

And it's bubbling like crazy now! (^¿^). We're off to a peach orchard- PYW here we come! Good thing I have lots of fridge space for all these mason jars.
-Pamela

Bee18's picture
Bee18

Hi,

Idid my first water yeast and it look ok, there are bubbles.
I will give it to stand a little more.
Then what ? I suppose you only keep the water and discard all the fruits, but how do you use it to make your SD ? do you mix your flour with the same weight of this water instead of the normal H2O ?
Does someone can actually give a method and show photos ?
It will be a great help.

Although I did a Rice sourdough which is as good as a Rye sourdough, or a Wheat Sourdough, but I'm interested to know the usage of this water yeast for the Gluten and yeast free recipes

Bee 18

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

Hi Bee,

Glad your yeast water is active!

You ask about method and pictures. Several different approaches to using yeast water in baking are logged on the thread below, with photos and detailed methods plus links to other relevant threads and sites: 

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/20693/culturing-growing-and-baking-range-wild-yeasts

Many of the methods noted use the yeast water to build an initial preferment but also talk about using yeast water as the water for the final dough.

A post by wao was an inspiration for many wild yeast bakers on TFL and her original blog gives a methods for prefermented and 'straight' dough, using yeast water.

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/6012/baking-natural-wild-yeast-water-not-sourdough 
http://originalyeast.blogspot.com/2008_02_01_archive.html

Congratulations on getting the gluten free rice sourdough. That sounds a great accomplishment given the fine nature of the flour! As rice flour is used widely in Asian baking my guess is that there might be some formulae in that tradition that use rice flour and yeast water together. Hopefully someone with more knowledge of that practice might be able to guide you there.

Wishing you good baking with the fruit yeast, Daisy_A 

jyslouey's picture
jyslouey

I tested my yeast water using 15 grms of KA WW flour and 15 grms of the yeast water,  thinking that if whole wheat flour can rise to double then it would be fine for normal bread flour and hey presto I have it!  I didn't have time to take pics this morning before going to work but after more than 14 hrs, I can safely say that my yeast water is a success and the tester has risen to amost double.  Now all I need is to decide on a recipe and I'm on my way to making my first loaf using natural yeast.  A big thank you to all who have gave me their advice and shared their experience here.    - Judy

  

breadbythecreek's picture
breadbythecreek

-'nuf said.

jyslouey's picture
jyslouey

Measured out the ingredients for the aboove using 50/50 grm yeast water & b/f as the preferment, 100 b/f plus 50 wholewheat flour, 5 grm of salt and 1 tbsp sugar for the main dough. The water used is oly 75 ml and I'm just wondering whether the hydration level is on the low side? The pre-frement is a sticky wet blob so this could also compensate for the somewhat low hydration. Can I also add in the 30grm of wholewheat preferment that I made as a tester?

breadbythecreek's picture
breadbythecreek

Hi Judy,

I'm not sure what recipe you are using as your guide, but if I were you, I'd add in enough water to make a soft, tacky (not sticky) dough.  I find myself adding extra water (around 10g) to recipes as I'm in the desert and things are dry, dry around here.  Re: the tester, it probably wouldn't hurt it to toss it in the main dough, it might speed up the rising time as it contains additional yeast babies.  Just make notes about exactly what you did so you can replicate the results in the future. That's my suggestion.

-Good luck

Pamela

RuthieG's picture
RuthieG

I'd say yes to the tester.  I often do that with my sourdough too.  I can't see wasting something that is already made

even if it's just a small amount.  I'm so excited for you.  I had fresh strawberries yesterday that I was using to make jam and couldn't resist tossing some in a jar..."just to see what happens"...haha  

jyslouey's picture
jyslouey

I got the recipe from a Japanese bread book which has a section on breads made with natural yeast leaven and how to make raising water yeast although it's not as detailed as the info I get from TFL and there are only a 3 or 4 recipes using this method.

I threw in the ww levain as suggested.  My dough temp is 30.2C  when it was ready for bulk fermentation  Nearly three hrs have passed and my dough is spreading sideways rather than rising...

I hope I don't lose this again, I've tried posting this a couple of time but  I keep getting a page error message when I try to save.

RonRay's picture
RonRay

Judy, it is extremely difficult to judge the amount of rise, when you place the dough in a bowl. The straighter the sides of the container, the easier it is to judge the rise. Looking at your photos, I would guess it has risen better than 50%.

Ron

jyslouey's picture
jyslouey

I should have used my round plastic container that I normally use for bulk fermentation. I learnt from TFL to measure the rise using elastic bands for calibrations to determine how much it has risen. I subsequently read that it would have helped to use a 50/50 yeast water +water for the kneading. I was not at my best condition at 6:00 a.m. in the morning :) There is another recipe that calls for 100% yeast water w/o the use of a preferment but since I have added the extra wholewheat preferment, I didn't want to mess with the dough too much. And now I'm kicking myself for not having done so. I replenished my yeast water with 50 grms of new water plus 5 or 6 fresh grapes to keep the yeast water going. There's some precipitation at the bottom of the jar, presumably this is the potent stuff? I may not have stirrred my water enough before making my preferment. Strangely, the tool bar on the comments box is gone again so I can't post pics.

RuthieG's picture
RuthieG

I'm excited for you so please keep reporting on how it is working for you.........

jyslouey's picture
jyslouey

I will certainly keep you posted with my progress, and I'm hoping that this can help to provide a guideline to others who may want to experiment with this method and avoid the mistakes that I have made in the process. An impotant point about the finger poke to determine if bulk fermenation is complete - I get different feedbacks about this, for dough with a fat and suger content, I'm told to flour the index finger and poke the dough right down to the bottom (many of the chi. bread books suggest this also) and if the indent remains without closing up then it's done. For a lean dough with ww, is this the same way to test for doneness or should it just slowly spring back when pressed or should it keep it's indent as with the sweet dough?  I only know that if it collapses, it's over proofed. Now you see it, now you dont, the tool bar is back again....

Pitifully small dough ready for 2nd proof after 6 hrs in room temp @28C.  I gave it a s&f, kneaded in the cranberries and pecan nuts but  gluten torn by the pecans .  Will be back after 4 hrs. and see what has become of my dough. 

Ta da

Much  time and effort have gone into this puny loaf.  Waiting to it to cool down before I cut open to check the crumb

I don't know how I can achieve big holes in the crumbs but this would do for now. 

Janetcook's picture
Janetcook

Your loaf looks pretty good to me!  You should see my 'frisbee' loaves :-)  About 1/2 as tall as yours is but the flavor is good and the neighbors love them.  It is nice to have a short slice of bread :-)

To me flavor is the most important thing.  I do not ever get big holes because I use home milled whole grains.  My breads are dense but light.  Have an even crumb.....but I am always going after the flavor - sour for my son -not so sour for my daughter which is why I got into trying YW's.

Thanks for posting your picture!

Janet

 

breadbythecreek's picture
breadbythecreek

How does it taste, is the crust what you were hoping for?  It probably would have had more holes if you didn't add the mix ins as the bread is somewhat weighed down by the berries and nuts.  I tried to make a blueberry hazelnut loaf using raisin yeast water and it came out pretty much the same as yours.  We didn't care for it tastewise (not sweet enough for the blueberries and the hazelnuts were just weird). I think we're both on the right track, esp. for beginners.  If it were easy, everyone would be doing it. I have a white flour/strawberry yeast loaf in the cooler for baking tomorrow. We'll see if I get the oven spring that I'm hoping for.  I'm so glad that others have posted more about the maintenance of these jars as I've been wondering about all that as well.

Have a great weekend,

Pamela

jyslouey's picture
jyslouey

 the scoring could have been better it wasn't for the pecan nuts that got in the way and I couldn't cut deeper for fear of ripping the dough and causing it to deflate. I'm eating a piece of this as I type and I must say it's not too bad at all!!  There's no yeasty taste and I can actually taste the wholewheat, it's the first time I've made bread with cranberries and I think they taste better than raisins in this case.  I reheated it in the toaster oven, the crust is not crunchy crispy but slightly chewy cripy which is good enough for me.   I think if I will make this again using double the qty and using 50/50 yw & water instead of just plain water. I like hazelnuts and may give it a try with cranberries too.   All in all, I think I'm quite pleased with this bread.   Now that I've started this thread here, I will continue to report back on my progress with other recipes and I hope we can continue to support each other and exchange ideas and findings.  - Judy

jyslouey's picture
jyslouey

from the comments box?

RuthieG's picture
RuthieG

Judy since you have gotten your water going and so many of us seem to have such an interest in the yeast water, I am curious as to just what you want or why you are trying the yeast water.  Do you dislike yeasted bread, don't like regular sourdough, just want to try something different and/or always interested in trying something new........I'm just curious about the interest in the yeast water? 

jyslouey's picture
jyslouey

about different ways to make a good and tasty bread.  I tried making a sourdough bread using a starter  with flour and water and found it difficult to maintain it with daily feedings and ended up wasting a lot of flour.  Not wanting to give up entirely, I thought I would try this method that seems less complicated and raisins and fresh fruits are readily availble and inexpensive and most importantly not too time consuming.  It fits my work schedule well, I can quickly make the yeast water starter on Fri. nite, leave it out at room temp overnite while I sleep and by early next morning, I can start on the main dough and be able to bake something by Sat. evening. 

 Yeasted breads are fine and if using a good yeast, the result is almost fail-prooof, but they tend to give out a very strong yeasty smell, esp. when the weather gets warmer and I'm never sure if my bread has either gone bad or it just the yeast that's affecting the bread.  To date, I have found that bread making, while using only very simple ingredients is a very complicated science and takes a lot time, skill and knowledge to master and succeed. 

RuthieG's picture
RuthieG

Thanks jsylouey, that is more or the less my reason too....I love sour dough too and keep it usually.  I have some of Carl's starter and always have a reserve frozen but I love trying new things and the yeast water fascinated me.  Thanks for responding, it is always interesting to read the whys and wherefores of others.

jyslouey's picture
jyslouey

Janet and Pamela,  I'm at work at the moment so I'm unable to respond  and express my gratitude to each individually.  What  I have done is to   gather all the info  from  the different  links and do a quick cut and paste into one big doc  so tht I can read and digest all the info  at my leisure and on my way to and from work.  I've previously printed out Ron's write up on the subj. and I've also read Akiko's posts; I intend to follow one of her recipes.  I'm struggling with the numbers, that's why I prefer to print out and make notes for ease of referecne.  Once again, I truly appreciate your help and patience.   Bread bakers must be the most good natured people on earth :)   - Judy

Janetcook's picture
Janetcook

Hi Judy,

I had to chuckle when I read this :-)  When I first began reading all the YW info. here I felt like my head would explode :-0.  So much information to digest and I just couldn't grasp it all.  I would read it and instantly forget what I had read and I too finally started printing out the information and taking copious notes.  Writing the information down really helped me to get a better handle on it all but it took awhile before it finally clicked that once the YW was active it is pretty much just like the SD starter I already have and maintain.....but it was a challenge getting to that point.

All of this would be so much easier if I could simply step into your kitchen and within a few minutes all would be a whole lot clearer!  Trying to convey such a 'hands on' thing is quite challenging using printed words....kind of like trying to learn ballet by simply reading a book.....no way could I ever do that!

You are learning a lot and already know more than you think you know!  You are persistent and that persistence is paying off :-).

Take Care,

Janet

jyslouey's picture
jyslouey

teaching an old dog new tricks. but at least you have the advantage of having  experience with SD recipes so the numbers are less overwhelming.  I tried it once and gave up. 

I'm old fashioned and prefer to have a book in my hands for reference.  It's not convenient to have to run back and forth from the kitchen to the computer to check on a reference. I still can't bring myself to use a recipe from my iPad in the kitchen.  Maybe I'm just trying to take in everything too fast too soon.  I find SD to be a huge challenge and this is one area where I avoid.  - Judy

Janetcook's picture
Janetcook

Hi Judy,

I write all recipes down on a sheet I have made that lists all ingredients and then there is lots of room for notes so I can keep track. I print things off of the computer and prefer sheets of paper to screens....If there is a recipe I like I print it off and then write it down on one of my sheets when I am ready to bake it.  ALl get stored in my recipe binder for easy access in my kitchen :-)

Hope this helps some.

Janet

jyslouey's picture
jyslouey

about great minds?  :)  I do that too only I'm not as organzised as you are.  I have a scrap book for recipes but usually follow one froma bread book but when I see something I like on TFL, I do a quick  cut and paste :)  I think I'm beginning to understand the formula above.  I had originally thought that one should use 200 grms  of the levain in the bread dough, now I think I understand that it's to make a total of 200 grs of levain at 67% HL (134gr water)  and the intial build using yw  at 1:1 ration and subsequent builds would be 134 minus 50 = 84 and then divide by 3 for water amt to be used for each build...making it 28 w (or yw +w?) /50 flour x 3 for total of 4 builds.?     - Judy

Janetcook's picture
Janetcook

Hi Judy,

Have been giving your situation some thought and am throwing this out here in hopes to shed some more light on your baking.

First off someone might have suggested this - maybe even me!  I forget what I write where and do not read very far back in threads or my head begins to spin....

Suggestion is as follows....

Get a bread baking book - either at your library or off of Amazon.

I strongly recommend Peter Reinhart's The Bread Baker's Apprentice.

His book is very 'home baker friendly' and all the computations are already done so no math on your part.

(Jefferey Hamelman's book Bread is excellent too but format is more for professionals and formulas do need some work.  It is a great one to have once you have the basics down.)

I recommend this because it is what I ended up doing because I was just getting too confused by reading too many books with different ways of doing things.  Once I got the hang of PR's method it was easy to expand into using sourdoughs with the formulas I had already been baking with commercial yeast.

Once I got a bit of a hang on maintaining and using his starter I began to branch out with formulas I found here because I had a base I felt somewhat comfortable with to guide me.

When questions arose I was not totally lost.

Starting out with YW is complicated in my opinion because there are just not as many resources available to help problem solve when things don't work out.  

When something was puzzling me with my SD starter I had numerous sources to refer to and that was invaluable.

You basically already have a sourdough started.  You just started it with fruit instead of flour.

To turn it into a 'real' SD starter all you have to do is continue feeding it with a bit of filtered water and flour 2x a day.

You will have to find out which proportions work best for you so that it is not ripening too quickly or too slowly. 

To do that you start with a set amount.  If things are too fast - cut down on your water but keep everything else the same.

If things are too slow - increase the water you are adding.

All you have to do is figure out how much starter you want handy.  My feed schedule is as follows - 5 (starter):9 (water):15 (flour).  It is a small amount so I am not wasting a lot when refreshing it.  (I put the extra into the refrig. and it gets used in other recipes - like English Muffins)  When I need a larger amount for a recipe I simply increase the amount I feed it to create the amount needed.  I might do it in 2 builds or just one depending on the strength of my starter and the amount needed.

I don't want to complicate things even further but if you don't want to feed a starter 2x a day it can be stored in the refrigerator too.  Just has to be refreshed a day or two in advance of being baked with.

I am not sure if you are familiar with the Breadtopia site but Eric has some great videos to watch on the care and maintenance of starters.

I am including it here so you can see what I mean...

http://www.breadtopia.com/sourdough-starter-management/

If you search through his site there are a lot of other videos on sourdoughs and basic bread baking with sourdoughs.

I think that once you have using sourdough down then all the YW information and use will make a lot more sense.  

Good Luck :-)

Janet

jyslouey's picture
jyslouey

Hello Janet, thanks for the link on Breadtopia, in fact I tried making a parmesan loaf last summer using his recipe and it worked well.  It was the first time I ever made a no-knead bread, it was a bit salty but still good. 

 I didn't know there was a section on starters, I only saw videos his his different NKB recipes.   I have many bread books already, more than I have time to read, in fact, just reading from TFL alone is keeping me very busy :)  but I do have a few very good one i.e.  The Bread Bible and PR's ABED and Bertinet's Dough.   I have skipped the sections on Sourdough starters as I thought I would never be able to handle the complexities of making a starter and thought I would just have to  resign to making yeasted breads.  With the discovery of water yeast, I'm hoping to branch out a little more :)  I still have a long way to go before I can make anything half as good as what I see on TFL.  - Judy

  

 

jyslouey's picture
jyslouey

Now that my raisin yeast water ready and I'm beginning to understand a little bit about ratios and builds, I would like to embark on my next experiment using a levain in its 2nd build.  My original recipe for the cranberry & pecan loaf above calls for 50 grm yw and 50 grm b/f plus 5 grms sugar and once ready, can be added to the main dough.  Today, I have made a 30/30 levain, when it's double/triple, I am thinking I should add another 60 grm flour and  30/30 yw+w to make levain 2 using ratio of 1:1:1  althoughI have no idea if this is correct as  Akiko mentions that it could be in any of these ratios i.e. 2:1:1 or 1:2:2 or 1:1:1)  and I have chosen to go with 1:1:1: for the sake of making less starter and for ease of calculation only.  I intend to use the same recipe for comparison  and I should then use the same 100 grms of starter specified in the recipe except this will be a somewhat "stronger" starter to reduce proofing time and a better rise.  Am I correct to think that this is how it  should be done?   I'm hoping  to get some advice before I  proceed with my next expriment this weekend. Many thanks!! 

- Judy 

teketeke's picture
teketeke

 Hi Judy,

Your another loaf looks good! If you feel the bread is salty a bit, I recommend you to decreas the amount of the salt to 1.8% around if the salt percentage is around 2%.

 Akiko mentions that it could be in any of these ratios i.e. 2:1:1 or 1:2:2 or 1:1:1) and I have chosen to go with 1:1:1: for the sake of making less starter and for ease of calculation only

 Hmm.. I don't remember what I said above..  When I made multi-build levain by following Okiraku lady, I didn't use the way.   http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/20693/culturing-growing-and-baking-range-wild-yeasts#comment-145610 I used this way. If I said that somewhere, I say , I don't use the raitio anymore. 

I hope that you will continue to suceed your another one, however, if you are not a sucucessful this time, you will learn more of your new pet.  I made a tons of mistakes, and I still do.  Although it is a good thing not to make another the same mistakes.  Don't be afraid of making mistakes, Judy.  You can try!

Best wishes,

Akiko

jyslouey's picture
jyslouey

so I've got it all wrong...and I was just  beginning to think that I have finally learned something.   Time for me to go back to do more reading on this subj.    If this is not the right way,  I should try the 1:2:3 method suggested by Janet and  perhaps work with only half of the levain from step 1.

BTW. It wasn't so much the salt, it was the amt of cheese used in the bread  but I had already reduced the amount considerably. 

teketeke's picture
teketeke

 Hi Judy,

I am sorry that I had made a mistake of the calculation, I fixed it here : http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/20693/culturing-growing-and-baking-range-wild-yeasts#comment-170204

I am sorry that I made you confused.

---------------------------

If your dough step1 30g yeast water /30 g flour  it will be like this by okiraku lady's

Okiraku lady's ratio : 28 ÷ 50 x100=56%   30g flour x 56% =16.8g  ( yeast water / water)

Step1 30g yeast water /  30g flour

Step2  16.8g yeast water or water / 30g flour

Step3 16.8g yeast water or water / 30g flour

Step4 16.8g yeast water or water / 30g flour

Total : The hydration 80.4g  67%  / Flour 120g  100%   ----- Levain completed.

When you use 1.2.3 sourdough ,  It will be like this:

Levain 200.4g / water 400.8g / flour 601.2g  ---

-- Total hydration 80.4+400.8= 481.2g (66.7%)/ flour  120+601.2g=721.2g  66.7%

Best wishes,

Akiko

jyslouey's picture
jyslouey

Should I also incl. the water used in the levain as well.  i.e. 50 grm yeast water, plus 75 grm used in the main dough (=125) and should I also incl. the b/f used in the levain (50grms)   and 150 grms flour in main dough (200 grm)  in which case, HL would be 62.5% which looks reasonable enough or base the % on 150 grm flour in the main dough? (= 50% HL which seems low)?   Thank you all.  - Judy

RuthieG's picture
RuthieG

I use the double rise for my bread and get a lovely proof from it but one thing I would like to say is that, in my humble opinion only, it is better not to make it so complicated that it becomes hard or brain taxing........When you get right down to it, bread is flour water, or flour water and salt, or flour water, salt, yeast of some type etc etc etc...........beyond a certain point, it's all just flour, liquid, and leaven of some sort.  We don't even have to have a recipe or exact amounts to get a wonderful loaf of bread....that's why our grandmothers made fabulous bread......Even using recipes, if a recipe calls for 1 1/3 cup of levain and I have 1 and 1/2 Cup.........I don't toss it out, I toss it in........It has never affected my bread in a negative manner......any bread maker will tell you that you don't have to use 3 packages of yeast for yeasted bread...a tiny pinch will work just as good, it just takes longer.

 

Now I have yeast water and it is perking away in the fridge and gives me a gorgeous rise/proof, but I am of the old school where if I have an apple  peel, I toss it in, if a day or two goes by and I don't have fruit, I add a pinch of sugar, or sometimes I toss in a few frozen grapes....the purpose is to have a liquid yeast to use and anyone who has played with sourdough knows that it doesn't have to be measured or weighted to the inth degree.

 

 

 

 

have a liquid yeast and be able to use it to make bread and to my thinking...........not to make it so complicated.

jyslouey's picture
jyslouey

Is this  bulk fermentation plus another proof?    I totally agree that bread making  should be a fun and relaxing activity. I know I'm going about this the wrong way, I've been trying to learn bread making  through books and from TFL  but with limited experience,  I tend to focus too much on the techicalities which is beyond my comprehension in the first place and in the end, it becomes more of a frustation than a fun activity for me.    - Judy

RuthieG's picture
RuthieG

What I do is just maintain my yeast water till I am ready to bake and then I take the jar out, pour off a half cup or so (depending on the amount of levain I need) then I stir in some flour maybe twice as much flour as YW and let it sit out on my counter for a number of hours, even overnight...depending on when I want to bake, then I do exactly the same thing all over again.  To the flour, YW that I made, I add more yeast water and more flour,  No set amount, just to equal the amount of levain that I need when I bake.  This morning I baked and needed 1 and 1/4 cups so I added enough flour and water to the original mix to equal that amount.  As I said, I do not believe that it is an "inth degree science".  Then I let that sit on my counter all night and it was very bubbly this morning so I mixed my sourdough bread.  I used a pretty standard recipe for the bread,  very much like sourdough lady's but no potato flakes.......It turned out beautifully ........so yes, it is just basically refreshing the yeast water/ flour for a second time....

My only point in my post to you was to make sure that you enjoy yourself while learning because while some may consider it an exact science, good bread doesn't require a mathmetician, scientist or a chemist...just someone with the desire to do it.

I mixed this batard last night and let it retard in the fridge overnight, brought it out and shaped it and let it proof and let it rise for several hours and then baked.  I used the type of levain that I described...I already posted it in a blog entry but here it is for you.  The bread was/ is delish.

 

 

 

 

jyslouey's picture
jyslouey

immensely even if I don't turn out perfect loaves everytime.  I feel a sense of achievement too when I succeed with a recipe first time. My most satifactory  work todate is the Hokkaido Loaf using the water roux method.  The bread remained soft and light even after 1 week. 

jyslouey's picture
jyslouey

and almost impossible to knead by hand when I added my levain 2 to my main dough.  I used the dough hook to help with the kneading.  Gave it a s&f after one hr,  not much sign of rising but definitely spreading out to fill the bottom of the plastic container. 

Maybe I should have waited until bulk fermentation is completed before adding raisins and walnuts.  I'm leaving it to proof  at room temp @ 27C until tomorrow moring. 

jyslouey's picture
jyslouey

and all the ladies on TFL who shared their experience and taught me about builds...  

Crumb shot to follow when  has cooled.  Its not any bigger than my last one using a single build levain but colour looks right and crust is crisp ,  at lease while it is still cooling down.  I find that my bread crust  goes soft or tough by the next day.    - Judy

This is using 25 grm rye and 25 grs ww with 100 grms b/f . and finally getting some bigger holes which I have never achieved in the past.  I am truly pleased with this one .

RonRay's picture
RonRay

Judy, your loaf looks fine, and I am pleased you found the flavor you've searched for.

I know this is "some type of YW", but would you mind updating me to "What kind", before I place the link in the index?

Congrats.

Ron

jyslouey's picture
jyslouey

raisin yeast water that I used to make my first yw cranberry & peacan boule, only this time it's with two builds. - Judy

jyslouey's picture
jyslouey

raisin yw that I used to make my first cranberry & pecan boule, except this time I used two builds, thanks to your easy to follow formula for multi-build levain!!

RonRay's picture
RonRay

Judy, unless I am misreading your comments, it is not RYW, but a Mixed YW of raisin and apples. No problem with that. I just did not want to place it in RYW, is it was not made of just raisins ;-)

I'll do the index update next. Thanks for the info.

Ron

RonRay's picture
RonRay

Judy, it is in the index now.  :)

Ron

jyslouey's picture
jyslouey

Sorry Ron, I didn't mean to repeat myself :). I lost the post first time and had to retype.  Now when I type lengthy posts, I make sure I do a cut first so if it screws up, I don't have to retype the whole darn thing again.  I only put in a few slices of apple and thought this was the food to feed the raisins.  I think I may continue to use granny smith apples in future mixes, I just love their smell.

RonRay's picture
RonRay

You could try just the apples too, sometime.  They are my personal #1, from which I derive almost anything else I wish for. 

But, to each his/her own    LOL

Ron

jyslouey's picture
jyslouey

I now  understand the real meaning of flavour.  My ww /rye breads never  tasted like this in the past, the salt is just  right too.   My next challenge is to be able to produce the exact  same flavour and texture for all future bakes.  Thank you TFL!!

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

Wow Judy - that looks delicious - you must be pleased! 

The rise, crust and crumb look great. I find I can get a very thin, crisp crust using RWY in mixed grain breads. I'd be interested to know if this bread crust remains crispert.

Glad too that the flavour was good - that sounds like the ideal combination!

Best wishes, Daisy_A

jyslouey's picture
jyslouey

so much so that I have almost finished more than half a loaf in one day. The crust is no longer crisp but a nice chewy texture that is still soft to be eaten as is without toasting. I can distinctly taste the wheat and rye. I have made another boule using walnuts only and black & white sesame on top. My format buttons have disappeared again so I can post any pics yet. Will try later. It's been a long day of baking for me!!

jyslouey's picture
jyslouey

does it make a difference when using AP instead of BF for the levain builds? I've been using BF throughout including the tests but noticed that AP is specified by a few others working with yeast water. Why AP and not BF since BF is higher in protein and provides better gluten formation? -

breadbythecreek's picture
breadbythecreek

Hi Judy,

This is not specific to water-based yeasts, but if I might add, my understanding is that you would want to add bread flour rather than AP flour if you want to substitute a significant portion of a whole grain flour, such as rye or spelt, which are relatively low in protein/gluten in a recipe that calls just for AP flour. For instance, a favorite baguette recipe calls for AP flour. I like to add some rye.  In this instance, I would use rye for the levain builds and 100% bread flour in the main dough, in essence to equal out the overall amount of intended gluten in the dough to approximate what is called for in the recipe.  One might also want to use bread flour rather than AP flour when you have a lot of heavy mix-ins, such as fruits or nuts.  The extra gluten will strengthen the dough enough to support the chunks of ingredients, but at the same time, you may have to sacrifice the lightness of crumb or the large holes you may otherwise achieve had you made the loaf with just AP flour and not the mix-ins.  Using only AP flour with heavy mix-ins may possibly cause the mix-ins to fall to the bottom and not be well distributed in the dough.  This is merely my understanding. If others have reason to disagree, please jump in.

 

jyslouey's picture
jyslouey

 I was just wondering if AP would make a significant change to the texture and quality of  the bread...i.e. lighter , better rise, crispier crust etc..  So far I'm quite satisfied with what I have turned out.  For the second build with BF, the levain was a little stiff and very tacky,  I couldn't knead it by hand.

That said, maybe I should go and do a test with a small amt of AP flour to see what I get.  It's also time to test the strength of my yeast water as I've replenished it with more water (didn't measure it, just poured till it was more than half way up the bottle) and threw in a couple of raisins to keep it going.  What are the signs of overfeeding/underfeeding?   More fizzy or will it turn sour / boozy.  Right now mine smells of very weak beer - nice smell (I think) and has a bit of fizz....  If the smell hits the nose like vinegar,  then it is time to stop feeding or is it time to discard some of the water and then continue with feeding? 

breadbythecreek's picture
breadbythecreek

The lovely thing about this hobby, like my other hobby with newsprint and charcoal, is that the ingredients/materials are quite inexpensive. Test for yourself! Empirical evidence is the very best kind. I'm not surprised that the bf dough was stiffer as it absorbs more water. Don't be surprised if your AP test is quite a bit wetter. I think a successful test of your yeast water levain is a 3x rise w/in 8-12 hrs. If it takes longer than that discard the levain, and feed the water before making more levain/bread. When to feed the water? When if you take it out of the fridge and it warms up for a day and it doesn't bubble. Or if you taste the water and it's mostly booze - not sweet, not fruity. I feed it when my fruit is bleached from the natural color and tastes like water, not fruity, not sweet. How to feed? I take a gravy ladle and scoop out the spent fruit and just replace the same amount with fresh. If the water is too boozy, I'll use syringe to remove almost all the water and replace it with fresh.

Happy baking-
Pamela

jyslouey's picture
jyslouey

Thanks for the adv. When you remove almost all of the water, I'm assuming you leave the white dusty bottom bits behind? Should I be using just the clear water to mix my levain or shake it up to incl. the white bits. I shake it first as I believe that is the potent stuff and what raises the dough. I could be wrong though. According to my son, that's mold :-)

Dang, the format buttons have vanished again!

breadbythecreek's picture
breadbythecreek

I believe it is the yeast- not mold. When replacing the water I'd try to not scoop up the white dust, that's your colony that you use to innoculate your dough and perpetuate your water. I don't think you have any mold.
-
Pamela

jyslouey's picture
jyslouey

Thanks Janet,  that's a relief.  I'm testing  a levain with AP flour and it has doubled in abt 4 hrs.  I'll wait until this evening (12 hrs)  and then do a second build and see what happens inthe morning.  If it works well,  I may experiment with 3-builds using AP flour, stay with 2-build using  bread flour and see if it makes any difference.  This will keep me quite busy for a while ;o)Here's the 2nd build AP starter after two hrs. 

I'm putting this back in the fridge in case it overflows if kept in room temp overnite. 

RonRay's picture
RonRay

Judy, as you know, bread flour has a higher gluten content than A-P flour. In general, BF is use when there are specific reason that the formula creator though meaningful. The amount used in most levains is unlikely to make any major difference, if you use one verse the other. However, that said, it is good practice to follow instructions when attempting to replicate a formula.

As an example, in my standard test formula, it would make a major difference - in that formula, 60B% of the flour is in the levain and no bread flour at all is called for !

Ron

RuthieG's picture
RuthieG

A good quality All Purpose Flour sometimes will have a protein content that is pretty high and some of them lower than normal so it really depends on the flour...are you confused yet?  In the levain I'd really don't think it makes much difference but like Ron, I always follow the recipe.......at least the first time I use a recipe, I follow it exactly ...

 

I have been playing a lot with my yeast water and I refreshed it a few days back and made a levain....the next day, I used it and had some left so since it was more or less at that point, sourdough started, I refreshed it, and again the next day did the same.

 

This morning I made biscuits for breakfast with the castoffs........My Biscuits made from yeast water sourdough

It pays to be one who hates to throw any thing away....I baked them on my bread stone.

jyslouey's picture
jyslouey

Like you I don't like to throw things out too and not knowing what to do with my 2-build tester which has been sitting in the fridge for a couple of days, I tossed this in tog. with my left over 2-build levain and simply  made another loaf,  tweeking the recipe slightly with  an extra 50 grms of  flour as I had more levain than necessary.  The result was good, in my opinion  if it wasn't for the extra salt, bad maths/judgement on my part. 

It appears that we're have the same breadstone too ;-p. 

- Judy

jyslouey's picture
jyslouey

The format buttons have decided to re-appear this morning so I'll quickly post my pics before the buttons disappear again.

I tried this again this morning, the crust is still soft and chewy in spite of the extra salt.  This is one bread that I would  feel confident to give away to family and friends.

RuthieG's picture
RuthieG

That's just beautiful and I am so happy you had such a good success............now file away  in your mental file, how it felt in your hand. the texture, the smell, the feel etc etc that way you'll try for the same next time.................

jyslouey's picture
jyslouey

now that I have exprienced such good results with yeast water, I'm less inclined to work with instant yeast.  The fun part about yeast water is that I can experiment with different dried/fresh fruit and there's so many  different options .,, dried sour cherries, apricots, apples, just don't know where to start. 

jyslouey's picture
jyslouey

that weighs in oz and grams up to 3 kilos with a micro mode that  weighs in increments of .1 gr.  What's more, it can also weigh milk and water in fl oz  and ml.   Now that is really something!  I've tried using the measuring jug but it's diffcult to gauge the measurements.   I use the scales and assume that it's 1g =1ml . however, when I weigh 100 grm of water, I end up with slightly more than 100 ml if I pour the water back into the  measuring jug. 

jyslouey's picture
jyslouey

I have completed build 2  using AP and  would like to go one step further to make a build 3.  Can I feed this after it has peaked  (it more than doubled after 3 hrs and I put it back in the fridge in case it overflowed during the night, and left it in the fridge this morning.  I need to go on a quick business trip tomorrow morning but was hoping to feed  levain 2 one more time tonight so I can have it  ready by Friday. I'll make sure to use a larger container for build 3  What I'm not sure  is whether  I can feed this after it has been in the fridge for 24 hrs or if I shoud have fed it for the 3rd time while it was still active  before it went into the fridge last night.  I'm hoping it won't make a huge difference, but thought I should check with the experts first. Thanks.  - Judy 

RuthieG's picture
RuthieG

As I told you before Judy, I am an "it's not that crucial" kind of baker but I would go ahead and feed it as you mentioned because, it's too late to worry about "should I have feed it before I put it in the fridge last night.........

 

Feed it and go enjoy your trip and your bake on Friday.

 

Here's how my philosopy works.....LOL  the other day I was baking a raisin bread that is on this forum.  I copied the recipe to my computer files and was going to make only the 1 bread recipe instead of the 3 loaf recipe.     I was having so much fun in the kitchen and was letting my bread machine do all the work and it was mixing away so I thought OK time to take a peak.  Inside what I saw was the water for the 3 loaf recipe and the other ingredients for one loaf...........So instead of getting all concerned, (I said to myself, it's not that crucial when you get the ingredients in there, so just get them in.  I just started dumping more of what I already had in there and trying to remember exactly what amounts I should be adding for three loaves........The bread turned out very good too......so now you understand my way of doing things...Ha ha

So you missed that first mark already, since you want to do the Friday bake, refresh just like you said.

jyslouey's picture
jyslouey

on how to feed/start a starter but is more sourdough related (leave out for 24 hrs, mine was out for only 10 hrs or so)   In any case, I have taken the tester out of the fridge and  and let it rise some more in rom temp.   Before I leave the house in the morning, I'll add the pre-measured AP flour and a mix of yw/w to build 2  and see what happens when I return on Wed. nite.  Fortunately, I have someone in the house  who can put it back in the fridge if it gets over-active.   Thanks and goodnight, time for some shut eyes....

jyslouey's picture
jyslouey

I am very pleased that the 3 build levain that I started to experiment with this past Sunday using AP flour has worked well.  Not sure if its due to the multi-build or whether its the AP flour in the levain but the crumb is definitely softer and moister than my previous loaves.  This delectable combination was inspired by Txfarmer's sourdough recipe but I used dried blueberries instead of fresh.  Unfortunately my hazelnuts aren't very distinct.  Will need to roast them a little longer next time.  One again a big thank you for all the people who have helped me with their advice on multi-builds and introduced me to the wonders of home-brewed natural yeast.  - Judy

Pleased that my success is not a fluke after all.  Steam was created by pre-heated rocks in a loaf pan for the first time. 

- Judy

RonRay's picture
RonRay

Was this still your apple & raisin YW?

Ron

jyslouey's picture
jyslouey

apple raisin yeast water that has continued to give me such satisfactory results.  I have you to thank for teaching me about multi builds.  This boule was made with only 200 grms of flour and the rise is the best I have experienced since I started experimenting with builds.     - Judy

RonRay's picture
RonRay

Now that I know it is the Apple-Raisin YW, I will add it to the index.

You did well :)

Ron

jyslouey's picture
jyslouey

to be listed in your blog :-D.  I wouldn't have achieved this if you hadn't gotten me interested in this subject.  When I first started out in TFL, I would admire the beautiful loaves and boules using sourdough and never expected to be able to produce something similar if I continued to work with IDY which is all I have ever used (I didn't want to go through the hassles of mainting a sourdough starter) until I decided to read about natural yeast cultivation.  It's fun to be able to play with different fruits.  I wonder if it is possible to mixed flours  using ww/rye & bf   in the levain builds?

RonRay's picture
RonRay

Judy, why wonder if it is possible ?  Just try it and find out. LOL

Ron

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

Hi Judy,

That's  a beautiful looking boule. You must be very pleased with that good dough development, shape and crust.

Best wishes, Daisy

jyslouey's picture
jyslouey

when my newly  refreshed yeast water is alive and kicking.  I intend to use a 50/50 ww & bf.  I'm hesitant to mess with rye though as I know this is a difficult flour to work with and I've only used it in small amts in the main dough.

jyslouey's picture
jyslouey

Thank you Daisy.  I'm really pleased with this one, it shows some improvement from my last bake.   I think a 3-build levain is the way to go.  I'm looking forward to my next bake already.

- Judy

jyslouey's picture
jyslouey

using my recently refreshed raisin water yeast, a rye levain and caraway seeds

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This doesn't hold a candle to what Mebake has produced  but I'm very pleased that I have successfully adapted to sourdough recipe using yeast water.   - Judy

 

jyslouey's picture
jyslouey

I decided to make another one for my family after yesterday's success. 

jyslouey's picture
jyslouey

Use my old raisin yw to jump start my new apricot yw which was bubbling profusely after 8 hrs. The AYW was equally successful.  Below is a my sesame batard using the same recipe for the  rye pain au levain, but adding 2 tbsps of ground sesame powder to the bread flour.  The smell of sesame is more distinct than just using roasted sesame seeds.

breadbythecreek's picture
breadbythecreek

good job!

Bee18's picture
Bee18

I almost never saw a subject that engulfed so many comments and interest.
Thank you Akiko for your comments and links it was super useful.
About the same time Judy began with the subject I also began to look after this (but on Google)after I read something about Kefir water... and from there I saw the articles of Ron Ray and found that as usual TFL was the best place to find info. and to learn from other devoted bakers who share their experience here.
I had some trouble to connect with TFL lately and especially to send comments and I was late to read all the info of this page which developped to an entire book !

teketeke's picture
teketeke

 I am glad that our yeast water topics are good to read to make an entire book, Bee18! I hope you will have good yeast water too.  

I am also glad to see that Judy has been very successful on her bread baking with yeast water.  

What very lovely loaves Judy and Pamela made! Great job!

Best wishes,

Akiko

 

jyslouey's picture
jyslouey

I am really into this yeast water method and am also trying to see if I can convert sourdough recipes using yeast water.  I have not been successful with sourdough but so far this method has give me very satisfactory results and my breads have improved tremendously.  I could never have done this without the help of  Akiko, Ron, Pamela, Janet etc.  A few of my friends are also very keen to know more about yeast water and I'm helping to spread the word! 

Akiko-san, fyi the Hoshino Natural Yeast Leaven really makes lovely sandwich loaves.  It's such a pity that they don't export this outside of Japan.  They have one other product for artisan breads but because I don't read Japanese I didn't try this as I did not want to trouble my colleague to translate it for me. I just settled for the yeast for sandwich loaves.  If you ever have a chance to get this from Japan, you should try this but then again you already make such lovely breads you don't need the help of ready made starters. :)   - Judy

jyslouey's picture
jyslouey

here's my non-SD version which can almost pass  for a SD :)   I'm really really pleased that my attempt to convert a SD recipe using  YW recipe is working so well.  I'm also reluctant to cut it up.

At last something that I can be proud to bring along to a family dinner gathering.  Thank you Sue of Youcandoitathome for sharing your recipe.  I added  some candied orange peel and currants.  Can wait to tuck into this.  - Judy

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

Hi Judy,

That looks gorgeous and I bet it's going to taste good! I think anyone would be proud to take that to a celebration meal!

Could you tell me how much YW you substituted for sourdough leaven, whether this was straight or mixed with flour? I'd also be interested to know whether you used YW as the liquid in the final dough or straight water. I've done both with good results but this loaf looks particularly well rise and golden. Great job!

Best wishes, Daisy_A

jyslouey's picture
jyslouey

I used three builds as per Ron's calculations, starting out with 12, 23 then 69 to reach 207 grms  The recipe was for 405 grm SD which I halved but I used all of the 207grm.   Build 1  is 100% HL  and for the 2nd and 3 builds I used a mix of yw and w,   I can't remember how much exactly, but it was def. not 50/50, more like a few grms of yw mixed with plain water.  I also replaced the water with 2 tbsps  of yw in final dough.  I had the top covered with a piece of foil not long after it began to brown nicely but did not see the rise and the crust  until I took the tin foil off, suffice to say that I was more than plesantly surprised!!  My next mission - a figs and walnut loaf using the same recipe.  

I don't know if the crust on the SD version remains  hard and crisp but mine was crisp when it came out of the oven but by the time it had cooled down, the crust had gone soft but still very nice and chewy and would def. be crisp again if it went into the toaster.   Could be the humiditiy in HK at this time of the year at 88%. 

Cheers, Judy

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

Hi Judy,

Many thanks for giving these details. Much appreciated!

I tend to find that the crusts on YW loaves are quite crunch because of the sugars so maybe it was the humidity?

It's a really beautiful loaf, anyway and the flavour combinations sound lovely.

Best wishes, Daisy

jyslouey's picture
jyslouey

In a moment of distraction, I forgot to half the water content in my recipe and ended up with a very wet sticky dough. (I did not realise my mistake until I put away the recipe book when the bread was done).  I added a bit more flour but it was still too wet and dough was beginning to warm up from the long kneading.  I took the dough out and did a long series of s&f in the bowl until it would just about hold its shape and went on to bulk fermentation.   When I cut the bread I found huge holes in the crumbs which I have never managed to achieve.  Lesson learnt:  s&f method def. the way to go  when working with high hydration dough.  The bottom could have been browner but I'm very happy with the overall texture of crust and crumb. 

thomaschacon75's picture
thomaschacon75

Bravo!

Stephanie Brim's picture
Stephanie Brim

Haha, accidental ciabatta. I like that. That's what I'll use now if I do the same thing.

jyslouey's picture
jyslouey

the dough was still  soft and wobbly  after the first  proof .(very much like the dough that Ciril Hitz  worked with in  his baguette shaping demo). I should have shaped it differently instead of forming it into a boule that wouldn't hold its shape. I had difficulty lifting it off my wooden board and getting it into the bannetton and when I scored it, the dough almost collapsed.  Would have been better if I had simply divided the dough into two and just leave it to proof on the baking sheet a second time and bake it as a ciabatta.  The next time I run into the same problem, I'll know what to do.  - Judy 

jyslouey's picture
jyslouey

I was able to make her prune & hazelnut boule with a bit of cocoa added using my  raisin yeast water.   I halved her original recipe as it's the first time I'm making a stiff levain.  The final dough was very soft and I was a little apprehensive  at first that it would be a flop as there was very little oven spring.  The crust was soft and chewy , not crusty as I would have liked it to be but  the crumb was soft and the texture was better than what I had expected.   The cocoa powder gave a bread a good colour but not a distinct flavour though.  Thank you again Codruta for translating the recipe for me, I'll make this again another time using your regular formula of 440 grm flour and here's a picture of the bread and crumb as promised.

 

 

lumos's picture
lumos

Hi, Judy.

How much cocoa powder did you add?  I'm not sure  if you've seen this already, but you can add up to 10% cocoa powder quite safely, but it won't taste chocolatey, though I think it definitely adds some depth to the flavour and a hint of aroma.

Your loaf looks very nice, though. ;)

best wishes,

lumos

jyslouey's picture
jyslouey

I used only 2 slightly heaped tsps of cocoa ( I think it was abt 4 grms) as the total flour amt used was only 220 grms.  After coating the sticky prunes I just mixed the excees  in the flour.  I followed Codruta's recipe where  no sugar was added and I was afraid that it may turn out too bitter if I added too much or it may affect the consistency of the flour, I'd hate to end up with a sticky mass of dark chocolaty dough that I couldn't handle. (I had some bad experience with  rye and wet raisins and had to chuck everything eventually.)  I would like to try your recipe too but as I don't have a sourdough starter @75% or any sourdough  for that matter, (I'm still trying cultivate a sourdough starter and reading a lot of articles on this subj)   I was unable to follow your recipe although I did like the idea of adding a bit of honey/maple syrup and milk powder for a richer flavour.  I will try and incorporate these two ingredients into Codruta's recipe the next time and see if this works as well.  The dough did not have much oven spring in the oven, I think I may have overproofed the dough but the crumb is still quite soft. It goes well with plain butter.  I think I like the taste of prunes better than raisins. 

- Judy

lumos's picture
lumos

Hi, there!

You can definitely add more cocoa powder in. For the dough with 300-350g flour, I think I add about 20-30g of it. (Can't remember precisely. Please refer to my blog entry I pasted the link above)  With that amount, the dough won't be so bitter at all, but I add a tiny amount of honey to offset any bitterness, just in case.  Also, adding cocoa powder makes the dough stiffer, so no worry about it's becoming sticky mass. It'd be less sticky, I can guarantee.

As for my recipe, you don't have to use sourdough, you can adapt it easily to make it with dried yeast.  you just have to omit the sourdough and as much/little yeast you'd add usually for the same amount of flour in the main dough and proceed as you'd do with your regular yeasted dough.  (My sourdough is 75% hydration, so it's almost the same level of hydration as the main dough, it's very easy to make a similar bread with my fomulae, replacing sourdough with commercial yeast)  And if possible, cold retard for a long time to improve the flavour.

If you have any trouble or question about that bread of mine, you can always PM me or post it on that thread. Anytime! :)

lumos

jyslouey's picture
jyslouey

I did in fact write down your recipe before Codruta so kindly translated her recipe for me. I also sneaked in 1+grms o IDY (as you have done in your recipe) just in case my yeast water was not strong enough for the stiff levain but it may have been a tad too much IDY.  I didn't leave the dough to retard in the fridge , I was in a hurry to see how my bread would turn out. :)  The dough was light and soft but whenI turned it out from the banetton, it collapsed slightly and it did not open up when I scored it so I think I may have over-proofed the dough, but at least the crumb is not dense or dry.  

Also your recipe calls for 150 AP, would it be better to all  b/f +ww  or does using AP give the bread a better texture?   Did you use AP because of the addition of cocoa which tends to stiffen the dough?  - Judy

lumos's picture
lumos

Hi, Judy.

I don't use AP flour because we dont' have that in UK. Maybe you meant 'plain flour' which I use for  that recipe fro 150g? My understanding is US's AP flour is something between our Strong flour asd plain flour in UK, slightly nearer to the strong flour if it's KA's.  What I'm trying to achieve by mixing strong+plain+WW is to emmulate French T55/65 flour which is not readily available here. Nothing to do with cocoa powder's tendency. That's how I usually do with almost all of my formula. Just me....:p

FYI, the protein levels of the flours I use for my regular breads, including that cocoa one, are as follows; Strong flour (12.9-13.5%) ,  plain flour (11.3-11.8%), Strong WW flour (13,5%). Probably you can use these info when using your local flour.

Also, it's very important to do finger-poke test to judge the ripeness of your dough during fermentation.

best wishes,

lumos

jyslouey's picture
jyslouey

Lumos, I'm in awe of your undaunting quest for the perfect flour mixture!   I like to use Japanese bread flour and a Japanese natural leaven which smells of sake for my sandwich loaves.  It gives me very good results each time.  It takes at least 8 hrs from bulk fermenation until it's ready to go into the oven at room temp.  For normal breads I use a local flour which I'm told is used by most bakeries  and hotels in HK, for ww,I use KA or Hovis.  The AP flour we use in HK is McDougals and I use this mostly for cakes.   I never understood the purpose of AP flour in bread as this does not have much gluten but I'm told it makes the bread softer.  

lumos's picture
lumos

I'm in awe of your undaunting quest for the perfect flour mixture!

I'm just insatiably greedy. That's all. :p

Is it McDougals or McDougall?  McDougall (Rank Hovis McDougall) is the major miller in UK, but they don't make AP flour for UK market.

Never used AP flour in my life, but according to the info I've picked up from various sources, it's handy for many people to keep it in a cupboard because it can be used for both cakes/pastires and bread,  (hence 'all purpose'),  especially if you don't do so much baking and don't want to bother with keeping both bread and cake flour.  But my understanding from the US based TFLers is that KA's AP flour is so superior in quality, it does work very well for breadmaking.  When you want to make French style loaves like pain de campagne or baguette, ordinary bread flour is just tooooo strong.