The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

Bread crust, rise in oven?

  • Pin It
kamp's picture
kamp

Bread crust, rise in oven?

What makes a bread top like this:



 


and not like this:



 


The first bread has rised even more when I put it in the hot oven but the last one didn't..


 


Any idea?

@thepiercy's picture
@thepiercy

As i understand it the rise in the oven, 'oven spring' is caused mostly by the bubbles in the bread expanding in the heat. This will happen until the crust is set and the dough cannot expand further.


So if you put your bread in a very hot oven the crust will set quickly and the bread wont rise very much, a cooler oven, or one which is still heating will allow for a longer rise.


 


 

mrfrost's picture
mrfrost

It's all about the Gluten.


If I am to understand some of your previous posts, you only bake gluten free bread. Gluten, when all goes right, is able to form sheets that act like a smooth, balloon skin. This is shown in the bottom loaf. 


This is probably very difficult to achieve in gluten free baking.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

but no information is given.  If this is made with gluten the loaf has fully fallen apart.  If this is a gluten free bread, then ...  maybe part or all of the flour should be pre gelled and then the mass grated or crumbed and then put back into the form and steamed to rebond the gelled pieces, this would result in a loaf with a cake like crumb, dryer and not so wet.


Mini

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

This picture beautifully illustrates when the dough past it's prime (cool really) but not something to repeat.   The crust integrity is lost and the tearing webbed gluten structure was frozen by heat in the baking process.   I think if the crust was not a little bit dry to the touch, and the oven cooler, the loaf would have fallen sooner leaving a brick.  Look carefully at the holes in the loaf, very irregular and no longer round like bubbles, more like breaking bubbles and they break into one another.  By the time the last loaf went in the oven, the bubble holding structure was overproofed to the point of not holding any gasses to help it rise.


I hope you can remember just how it looked and felt when the loaves had progressed this far.  This is too far proofed.   Loaves should have been in the oven much sooner.  Depending on the recipe anywhere from 30 minutes to an hour sooner.


The loaf also looks like it compacted too much while cooling as well.  Was it in a form? With a form, it is always a good idea that after shaping, the dough should fill the form more than halfway (2/3 is good) if you want a good looking top on it.  If the dough amout is too little for the pan, one is tempted to let the dough rise too long (hoping beyond "double") resulting in an overproofed loaf.  Happens often enough.


The good news is that you know what overproofed is like.  (Please, don't go there again!)  The only way to save it is to remix the recipe's ingredients and leave out the yeast mixing it up with the overproofed dough, the rising times will then be even shorter.  The save has to come quickly when the dough is discovered to be overproofed and not hours or days later. 


Mini

kamp's picture
kamp

Thanks for repleys.


The first bread is glutenfree, the second bread is not glutenfree.


The second picture it just a picture I googled to show what I mean when it not has that crispy crust.


I tried another time today and made 12 bread. 6 bread was very bad but the last 3 was very good! But the strange thing is that I don't know what I did different... 


I will post picture later..

kamp's picture
kamp

Here is picture of 3 different bread from 3 doughs. 



I really don't understand why the smallest bread didn't turn out like the others.


 


How do I now if the dough is overproofed? does anyone have a picture?


 


I make 6 bread at a time in the oven.


I mix togethter dough for 3 bread, put them in the bread pan and then mix the dough for the other 3 breads. Then I put them all in the oven at about 95F. I leave them there for 40 minutes. I take out the bread turn on the oven and wait untill the oven is hot enough and then I put them in again.


The only difference between the small and the tall bread is that the small bread was baked at 356F with the fan on (so its a bit warmer then 365) and the to other are baked at 392 with the fan.


 


 


 


 

Dillbert's picture
Dillbert

if the one on the left & middle are gluten free loaves, you need to talk to someone about patenting your recipe(s) and method(s) [g]

the big bubble in the upper left is an indication of 'overproofed' - but I have essentially no experience making gluten free stuff - I could be off.

the diiferences I spotted in your description is:

you mix dough for 3 loaves - it sits while you mix dough for another 3 loaves.
how long does it take to mix up the second batch of dough?
might this give a rising advantage to the first batch?

the bread baked with fan (convection mode?) did not have much oven spring....
the fan - or more accurately the more vigorous hot air circulation - will set the crust faster - than can inhibit oven spring.





 
kamp's picture
kamp

They are gluten/casein/egg.


It takes about 5 minutes between each dough so it has 5 more minutes to rise. Normally I haven't seen that it has affected the bread.


I think it is cold convection mode yes. I have always used that seens I bake 3 bread on each row.


 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

some need time like yeast and sourdoughs, others like baking powder and soda should go sooner into the oven to take advantage of chemical reactions while they are happening.

Dillbert's picture
Dillbert

okay ... so gluten recipe with egg - sounds like a soft loaf.


is this with yeast or other leavening?  you might want to post the recipe...we're pretty much in the dark here.


question:  you have two 'passes' - ie two batches to mix, two batches to bake, but there are three results.


what is the mix / bake / place / oven history of each of the
tall
medium
short
loaves?


you mention five minutes to mix a batch - that 'indicates' no kind of autolyze/resting/kneading time based on the described mix-into pans-mix next batch routine.  I'm missing some pieces of the puzzle (g)

kamp's picture
kamp

This is what I do:


Blend together water, yeast, flour, fiber, salt, melasse and seeds. Put the dough into 3 bread pans. Its no egg i den dough. I have been told to not write me recipe since I want to start my own bakery.


Blend together the same mixture again. When this is mixing I form the bread in the pans. And set them to rise at 95F. Then I take the new dough into and divid into 3 bread pans and set to rise.


I leave them to rise for about 40 minutes.


Take them out of the oven and turn the oven on.


Then I bake them 1 hour.


I have tried difference thing the last 20 bread and seens I had 6 good bread today maybe I have found it ;) I'm not baking bread tomorrow because I need to make something else then but I will try more on wednesday.


Is this answer at your question? (Some english word is hard to understand;))


 


 


 

Dillbert's picture
Dillbert

the exact recipe is not needed - but the list of ingredients is helpful.


obviously, the only differences in the loaves is


- the first batch of three gets a bit more rising time; I would agree that those 5 +/- minutes seem unlikely to make such a big difference.


- I am puzzled about the lack of kneading - is "mix, divide, shape, put in pan" accurate?  no kneading at all?


- given equal temperatures, the position of the pans in the oven sometimes plays a role - you'll see folks talk about "uneven" baking.  this is easy to check:  keep track of which pan is from 1st / 2nd batch, next bake switch the positions.

kamp's picture
kamp

I think its my lack of english word that makes it hard :P


Because I don't know the difference between mix and kneading.. I mix everything in a kenwood major machine. I have never looked at the watch how long I have it on but I mix until the dough is "a ball".. But it never goes more then 5 minutes between each dough is set in the oven so maybe 3 minutes? I can see next time.


But I'm starting to have a clue about whats wrong.


I have no idea of what this is called in english but in norwegian it is called pizzahorn, its pizza inside the dough.


Last time I made them they rised very well (just like the bread) and then they where 3/4" after backing because they fell.. But I don't remember how long I had them to rise but today I let them rise 30 minutes in oven and 10 minutes out of oven because I turned on the oven ;) And then I baked them at 390F for 22 minutes.



 


And the bread to the left (the high bread) was rising shorter then the small bread so I guess it must be something with the rising.


It will be very interesting to se this week!


 


 

Dillbert's picture
Dillbert

don't worry so much about the english - we'll work through it.  it's a funny language - for example in German people call it "ein Brot" - a bread - but in USA it's "a loaf" (of bread) - there is of course a German word for "loaf" - Laib, or Stange - depending on the geometry/shape - but it's not typically used.

summer of '65 I was in Stavanger - veddy pretty area - I manage to fall most of the way down the slope of a fjord mountain and that sorta' ended my trip.... I  did get a neat hydrofoil ride to the airport after the hospital, tho.  also got introduced to quark, berries & cornflakes for breakfast - yummy stuff.  and the local cheeses!  still remember those.

mixing and kneading - mixing is the first part - just bringing the ingredients together.  after that kneading is the 'mixing' (see - you got it!) or stretch and fold or (other techniques) that develops the gluten in the wheat.  gluten is what makes the dough 'elastic' so it holds the CO2 bubbles made by the yeast and puffs up - the 'rising / proofing' bit - and the when baked - the 'oven spring' bit.  there is a mechanical expansion of the bubbles as the co2 heats and expands...

I think you are exactly right that the problem is in the proofing / rising times.  very strong evidence is the loaf on the left with less proof time.  when things get over-proofed the co2 bubbles get too many / too big - bigger than the elastic property of the dough can contain and the 'structure' of the bread is destroyed - ie the elastic areas around the bubbles 'breaks' and allows the bread to 'collapse' or fall.  wet gummy interiors is another sign of over-proofing.

it's not hard to over-proof - I just did it today.  was working on another project, set a timer and when the timer went off - oops!  way gone and bad over-proofed.  the kitchen I guess was a bit warmer than usual.....

are you familar with the "finger poke test" for proofing?  it's a good test to learn.  must be a video around - anybody got a link to that?  pictures&videos are a lot better at explaning things than I am...