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Submitted by crumb bum on January 27, 2007 - 5:29pm No Knead to Preheat???Hello Bakers While most of the bread world has been going "no knead" I have been going no preheat. I read about this method a year or so ago. As part of my newyears resoulution to try new methods I have been using it. The method consists of placing 1/3 to 1/2 cup of water on the oven floor. Put bread on a sheet pan and slash as usual. I place it in the oven in the middle rack, shut the door and turn oven on to 525. The oven window will be covered with steam for the first 10 min or so. After 15 min I lower the heat to 440 or so for the rest of the baking time. The baking time is just slightly longer. I have noticed no great difference in my breads baked on a preheated stone or on a sheet pan minus the stone and preheat. I will say that sometimes the bottom gets a little darker than when on the stone. What I like most about this is you can wait until the very last minute and throw in your bread and not have to have to guess when to turn on the oven to preheat. It also saves on electricity and to some degree heat in the kitchen. Give this a whirl, I think you will be pleasantly suprised. Da Crumb Bum
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I'll try it!
I have been wanting to do this. So my next bread would be a no-preheat. Thanks for the "encouragement"... :) I'll let you know how it turns out.
It works!
Hi to all of you! I live in Israel and I've been baking bread for a few years now - mostly yeast, but I'm very interested in improving on my sourdough. I tried Crumb Bum's method of placing the ready to bake bread in a cold oven and it worked out very well! With all the talk lately about baking the no knead bread in a hot pot ... I just had to try baking in a cold pot... and the results were just about the same so naturally I found this "no peheat" idea very interesting. Thanks for sharing!
L_M
No pre-heat
Do you think you could put a small pan in the bottom of the oven and put the water there? Or maybe a few ice cubes? I am leary to put the water right on the floor of my 6 month old oven. Any thoughts?
Rena in Delaware
No pre-heat vs. steam
You could put a pan in the bottom of your oven (buy one at a garage sale since it will be ruined for any other purpose). I don't think ice cubes would work as the pan surface would not get hot enought to boil them off in time; I would use hot or boiling water.
The problem is that your goal is to get steam, not hot water or water vapor, for a relatively short period of time. Professional bakers use real steam injection for only 30 seconds or so. Home bakers, working with boiling water vapour, are probably shooting for 5 minutes or so. By the time your pan of water gets from cold to hot enough to vapourize, your loaf will already be past the oven spring/crust forming point.
Or so it seems to me! Experimentation is always good. Let us know what you find out.
sPh
I'll try again
Well, i don't know ....whenever my oven was not hot enough before I put my bread o the stone, the bottom of my bread stayed pale while the top got nice brown and crispy.
Same thing with baking in Pyrex instead of metal pan, all sweet yeast breads came out with a pale bottom in the Pyrex while got evenly brown in the faster warming metal, even in well heated ovens. Therefore I stopped playing around and now I preheat my oven well as my grandma and her grandma used to do.
Johanna
Baking stone and no preheat
Johanna
When I bake bread using the no preheat method I do not use my baking stone. I put my bread on a aluminum sheet pan and right on the middle rack of my oven. I am sorry if I was not clear on that on my first post. I can imagine that you would have problems with browning on the bottom if you used a stone or anything that took a while to conduct the heat through completly. I am sold on this method for bread that I would bake directly on my stone. I have not tried it on breads baked in pans or sweetened breads. Other than pale bottoms and crispy top how did the bread turn out? Oven spring and texture wise?
Da Crumb Bum
no preheat
Hi, Crum Bum,
Thank you for posting this method. If it works,it is so great, less fuel and safer to work with. The thing I do not like the no knead bread is the hot pot which can be dangerous. Do you put hot water? anything special about the container? and do you remove the water later to ensure the bread will be crispy?
Thank you.
questions re cold oven baking
Being totally intrigued by the "cold oven" method, I want to try but have a few questions...
> is the dough going into the cold oven after the bench proof? Or does the rise in the cold oven constitute the bench proof?
> dough hydration? - I'm guessing about 65% - is that right? How much higher in hydration can I go and still have the dough keep it's shape?
> and talking about the dough keeping it's shape...doesn't the dough tend to spread out while the oven is preheating? (After all, in a traditional method, the dough is always supported for the final rise by a couche or rising basket before it goes into a preheated oven with a baking stone).
> I have a gas oven. Does that really mean no water in a pan if the oven is gas? (see post by jm_chng on January 30, 2007 in this thread)? Why is water required if the oven is electric but not if it is gas?
TIA to all.
No preheat or cold start
No preheat or cold start baking is appropriate for just about every kind of bread I have tried. For the last month I have discovered that the crust and crumb is hardly changed except on the bottom of the loaf where it is softer. Our family actually likes the softer bottom.
As far as your questions concerning proofing, you can proof in the cold oven with a cup of just boiled water in the oven which helps keep the temp warm and the moisture high. When you are satisfied with the proof, remove the water slash the tops and turn on the oven. This method eliminates the need for a stone cooking surface. The stone takes so long to heat that using one in a no preheat situation would result in a gooey uncooked bottom. I use flat cookie sheets.
The hydration issue and how it relates to dough holding shape prior to baking is an area where many bakers learn something that changes everything. When I started getting serious about making artisan breads I thought that the only thing that would keep dough from spreading out was lower hydration. What I have learned is that developing gluten strands by kneading, folding and stretching also have a big impact on spread and oven spring. Once you learn to create surface tension on the top of the dough and develop gluten strands, your breads will puff up and be beautiful.
I don't have any recent experience with a gas oven but from what I hear from other contributors here the warm up times are similar to electric. It's just a few minutes and your oven will be up to cooking temp. I have poured a 1/2 cup of water on the floor of my electric oven to add a little steam but I think the need for steam is offset by a cool starting temp. The crust isn't set as quickly as it is at a high temp.
I don't know what jm_chng was getting at in that post. He is an expert in the field however and I wouldn't doubt his opinion if that's what he said.
I hope I have shed some light on your questions on the NPH method. I was floored when I first tried it and it worked. For most of us who only bake a single batch at a time or maybe two, this method will save you a considerable amount of money in energy costs and you won't be wasting 100-200% in excess energy consumption.
Eric
Cold start
Hello All
I just thought I would chime in on this. First off, there is quite a discussion on this if you search "cold start". Eric, you have it exactly right. Development of the gluten combined with surface tension is key to making great loaves. I don't think this can be over-emphasized. Are you still using this method for all of your bakes? I am going on almost 4 months without a hitch. I do not change hydration when using this method. I bake a 2 kilo miche weekly as well as smaller breads. When baking the miche you will find that it takes 10 to 15 minutes to spring. When you first place it in the oven and turn it on it will spread out to an extent. At this point you will be cursing at trying not preheating. 15 minutes later and you will be saying "wow it does work." I also like that you can wait until the last minute to bake. In the past if the wild yeast decided to take there own sweet time rising, my oven would be on for hours. I am not sure why this method does not get more play in bread books or even on this site considering how well it works?
Da Crumb Bum
cold start link
Hey again
Here is the link to the discussion I mentioned above http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/2287/unheated-oven
Da Crumb Bum
cold oven baking - first attempt
Many thanks to all who replied. You ppl are the greatest! I love the idea of skipping the stone and not preheating. However, I regret to report that my first attempt at a "country bread" using a cold oven was not a success.
I have made this recipe many times before; it is about 67% hydration. Oven spring was less than I get baking in a preheated oven. As I feared, the dough spread out rather than up during the pre-baking rise. Perhaps this was the result of letting the dough rise flat on the pan for the final proof as was suggested
I am going to repeat the same recipe tomorrow but do the last pre-baking rise in a container (rather than flat on the pan). As before, it will be baked in a cold start oven set to 450F.
Wish me luck. Any tips you want to give before my 2nd attempt will be most welcome. TIA
Hi, I would like to try this
Hi, I would like to try this no preheat method but I have a question first. Now, understood that you do not use your baking stone but intead use a sheet pan in the middle of the oven. My situation is this: I make pizza fairly often and have one of the 3/4" fibrament stones on the bottom rack of my oven that stays there all the time. It's too heavy and bulky for me to be moving it in and out of the oven much and I am afraid I might damage it by doing so. Do you think it would be a problem to leave it there and still bake on the middle rack on a sheet pan with no preheat? Any input is appreciated, thanks.
Pizzette
How long does it take to get up to temp?
This sounds interesting, and I would like to give it a try. I'd love to just chuck the loaf in the oven without heating it up. I have to ask though, how long does it take your ovens to heat up? Where I live right now, the oven takes upwards up 20-30 minutes to get up to temp...if i'm lucky : ( I feel like the cool start wouldn't work very well, that it would probably just rise a lot and collapse before the crust ever formed. Or might that not be the case?
Seriously, give it a try
I too could not quite get my head around starting bread in a cold oven for all the reasons mentioned above, but it is remarkably effective. Whether it takes 15 or 20 or whatever minutes to get your oven up to max temp, the bread seems to respond incredibly well. One time, I was disappointed with the crust color on a batch of sourdough, but I think I could have solved that by leaving the heat set higher for a while instead of turning it down after 15-20 minutes.
Caveat: I have *not* tried this with rich doughs. That could be a bit of a different experience.
"I am not a cook. But I am sorta cooky."
Cold start, enriched loaves
I baked (and still do) 'enriched' sandwich loaves for years upon years before stumbling upon this life-altering pursuit of artisan bread. My breads invariably went in to a cold oven or at most an oven that had been turned on long enough for the gas to kick on. Ovenspring was generally terrific, crusts were dark and just what they should be for a sandwich loaf. My baking temps ranged from 350-400 and times from 40-50 minutes.
Now the challenge is to duplicate that comfort level and consistent success with artisan breads, and though sometimes my loaves turn out happily, too often they don't. Really good ovenspring is elusive, so is the wide-open crumb that seems almost commonplace around here, or a really rich brown crust. I resist preheating and stones and steam because I personally can't justify it for reasons of the planet, but always feel inclined to blame my limited results on that. Cooky--
>One time, I was disappointed with the crust color on a batch of sourdough<
ONE time? Good Lord. The point of all this bone-chewing is: obviously some of you have not just adequate but excellent and consistent results without preheat, stones, or steam, right? So I really must stop blaming those factors and start looking elsewhere for the source of my pain.
Enriched loaves - no preheat
My experience has been the same as BrownDog's -- I never preheat my oven anymore when I'm making sandwich bread, and I can't say that I've seen a bit of difference between the loaves I used to make in a preheated oven and the loaves that I pull out now.
browndog and jmonkey, silly question here
I'm a little dense this morning but what do you mean by sandwich bread? I know it's bread for a sandwich, but are you talking about loaves baked in a pan? And if so, what do you do about other breads that are not considered sandwich loaves baked in a pan, whatever they are? Do you cold start all your breads? weavershouse
Sandwich bread
Weavershouse,
Not stupid at all. I think of sandwich breads as enriched loaves (i.e. breads with milk, butter, oil, sweetener, etc.) that are baked in a standard 8.5x4.5" or 9"x5" loaf pan at about 350 degrees F.
When I make lean loaf (just flour, water, salt and leavening), I usually pre-heat and either use a stone or a cloche at 450 degrees F or above. I've not tried no preheat with these hearth breads, Others, however, have experimented with no preheat for their sourdough hearth breads with success.
Sandwich bread
Hi, weavershouse, to me 'sandwich bread' is just plain ol' yeast bread with varying amounts of fat and sweetener, easy to handle and resulting in a pleasant but not particularly open crumb. I'd put all manner of stuff in mine and rarely used a recipe, but it was tender, tasty, well-risen and made a great...sandwich; also, it was predictable. *sigh*
I often use bread pans but if the dough lends itself I will do freeform. In fact, if you remember my blog about Loaves and Puppies with all the little white and wheat rounds--I'd call them all sandwich breads that could easily have baked in pans. All cold-started unless one batch followed on the heels of another into the oven.
>other breads that are not considered sandwich loaves baked in a pan<
I guess like a brioche or a sweet 'festive' bread or something. Weavershouse, in 25 years of baking and experimenting, preheat never entered my world. It always seemed fussy and utterly unneccesary. Now, because my artisan results are so uneven, there's an insidious whisper in my ear saying "preheat, you must preheat..." It's causing me no end of dismay, so it's good to revisit a thread like this.
Alrighty then
I think I'm gonna do it. It's about time I made something. And I'll take pictures this time, great! The big question is....can I get it done before I have to go to work......
How does the cold start
How does the cold start affect baking time? Do you time your loaves from the time you turn on the oven? I had great success with a NYTno-knead loaf this way, but really didn't track the time.
ps I could swear I posted this query earlier, I can't find it now. My apologies if I did doublepost.
Extra time for cold start
I've found that 10 or 15 extra minutes will do it for most breads. Your oven may vary, of course. You still want the interior temp to reach 200-205 (for a lean loaf), so an instant-read thermometer is your friend here.
"I am not a cook. But I am sorta cooky."
if the baking time is longer, what is the difference?
I very much like the idea of not preheating the oven for a long time (I get flack about it...) and generally preheat for about 15 minutes now instead of for 30 minutes that I was allowing to preheat before. So if not preheating will mean baking the bread for 10 to 15 minutes longer, I don't really see that there will be much difference in how much energy is required.
taking heat
ejm, obviously it doesn't matter which end of the bake you tack on that extra 10-15 minutes, but as you know, preheat is expected to take as long as 30-60 minutes, especially when there's a stone in the bargain (or in the oven, rather.) Significant energy savings if you're knocking off 15-45 minutes.
And besides the energy
And besides the energy savings, it's very convenient to just be able to put the bread in the oven when it's ready. No worry about overproofing while waiting for the oven. I wonder if you would get a better oven spring from a cold oven than from a partially preheated one?
Country French cold start
Cloche and cold oven start?
I am brand new to the forum, love reading everyone's posts! I searched for more info on using a cloche and the cold oven start and haven't found the info I need.
Has anyone used a cloche with a cold oven start.... dough in cloche, put in oven, set oven temp and bake? Or is it a must to have a heated oven when using the cloche... put cloche in oven, preheat, place dough on base and cover with bell?
Anyone already try this? Info greatly appreciated!
ChrisB
went ahead and did it
This old girl evidently isn't in the popular crowd and never got an answer, so I did what any good ole backwoods granny would do... tried it myself and went for broke. LOL And guess what... it worked. So if anyone is wondering if you can use a cloche and cold oven start... yessiree. I'll post the sourdough recipe and instructions in a blog soon.
Granny Chris
Welcome, Granny Chris
Granny Chris, TFLers love new voices and never ask for IDs--but sometimes either a post just slips through the cracks, or else no one really has an answer--hard to believe, with opinions as thick as thieves around here, but there you are.
I'm very glad to hear your success story, and look forward to reading your posts. You might stop by the Introductions forum and say hello, maybe mention which woods you live in back of--not required, it just lets folks know you're here and ready to make a dough of it...
very glad to see the cloche report
Thank you for posting your success story. I've been wondering about this myself. I have a clay baker that is supposed to go into a cold oven. The claybaker book claims that one can bake bread but I have never had the nerve to try it.
I'm really looking forward to seeing your recipe and instruction, Granny Chris!
-Elizabeth
P.S. I have FINALLY figured out how to tell which are new posts in a thread I've already seen. No doubt there is an explanation elsewhere on this site but just as I was about to ask how to tell which messages are new to me and which are not, I noticed the red "new" labels in the right hand corners today. ...duh...
Tom in west central
Tried the no preheat last night and LIKE it...simplifies the process even more as I work towards cloning Panera's whole grain loaf.
Tom in west central Indiana
oven temp
I always had a question about the no-preheat idea. Crum bum says to:
shut the door and turn oven on to 525. The oven window will be covered with steam for the first 10 min or so. After 15 min I lower the heat to 440
I have an electric oven. I forgot what it got to but in 15 minutes it was no where near 525 degrees. Have others watched how fast their ovens come up to temp? I dont think mine even hits 400 in 15 minutes. Does everyone elses oven preheat faster?
Thanks
No Preheat Clarification
Hey Kauseway
I do turn my oven up to 525 for the first 10 min. I then turn it down to 440. My oven does not crank up to the full 525 in those first 10 minutes. After I turn it down to 440 it takes another 5 minutes for my oven to reach this temp. and the preheat beeper to go off. The reason I crank it up so much is to get the temp up quickly and steam the water in the first 10 to 15 min. I have been playing around with a 500 for 10 min and 420 the remainder of the bake. The results have been good. The bottom does not get quite so dark and it pushes a little more moisture out of the loaf due to a longer bake. Hope this helps.
Da Crumb Bum