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 Submitted by Mini Oven on January 20, 2010 - 4:35pm Mini's Favorite 100% Rye Ratio
I've been playing with rye loaf ratios (starter/water/flour) and I came up with one using any amount of rye starter that when refreshed is a paste (100% hydration) and as it ferments loostens to a thick batter. I was looking for basic numbers (like 1/2/3) and I found them they're 1/ 3.5/ 4.16. It makes Rye so much easier! The starter should be generously refreshed 8-12 hours before and mixed into the dough just before peaking and in a 22°c room (72°F) the dough ferments 7-8 hours before baking. Dough should not be folded or shaped 4 hours before going into the oven. Basic Ratio> 1 part starter: 3.5 parts cold water: 4.16 parts rye flour 4 tablespoons bread spice for 500g flour Salt 1.8 to 2% of flour weight Hydration of dough aprox 84%. Handle dough with wet hands and a wet spatula. Combine starter and water then the flour, stir well and let rest covered. Add salt about one hour after mixing and any other ingredients. If room is warmer add salt earlier. Three hours into the ferment lightly fold with wet hands and shape into a smooth ball. Place into a well floured brotform or oiled baking pan. Cover and let rise. Don't let it quite Double for it will if conditions are right. Before placing in the oven, use a wet toothpick and dock the loaf all over to release any large bubbles. Bake in covered dark dish in cold oven Convection 200°C or 390°F (oven can reach 220°C easy with the fan on.) Remove cover after 20 to 25 minutes and rotate loaf. Reduce heat by simply turning off convection and use top & bottom heat at 200°C. Remove when dough center reaches 93°C or 200° F. All kinds of combinations are possible including addition of soaked & drained seeds and or cooked berries or moist altus and whole or cracked walnuts or a little spoon of honey. How it works: I have 150g rye starter at 100% hydration. I figure for water: 150 x 3.5 gives the water amount or 525g. I figure the flour: 150 x 4.16 gives 624 g Rye flour. For salt: 2% of 700g (624g + aprox. 75g in the starter) makes salt 14g or one level tablespoon of table salt. This amount of dough took 1 1/2 hours to bake and included moist rye altus. It was baked in two non-stick cast aluminum sauce pans (20cm diameter) one inverted over the other . The rounder of the two on the bottom. No steam other than what was trapped inside. Top removed after 25 minutes. It has a beautiful dark crust with a light shine. Aroma is heavenly.
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rye ratio
Mini-if I'm reading this correctly-this is a 100% rye bread made with a rye starter? Or, is the flour that you add white or another flour and you use a rye starter with it?
I'd like to try it, just trying to make sure I understand it first.
Tracy
Yes, 100% Rye
All the flour in the recipe is rye flour. I used 960 in our Austrian/German flour system. I hope you do try it. I've been playing around with hydration and there seems to be a magical amount where the rye structure stretches. The dough rises so nicely, slowly but lovely. I need to make a crumb shot and I'm waiting for better light.
When working with the dough, have the faucet just dribbling so you can get your hands wet as soon as they start to stick. A little stickiness is good or the dough will separate into globs. Then time to back off the water if that starts to happen. You should be able to fold the dough gently in the air. Folding is a little overstated, it's more like just tucking and sealing the tuck or two. I just love to get my hands into it. To loosen the dough from the bowl, sprinkle just a teaspoon of water around the edges between the dough and the bowl. Then run a wet spatula down the sides and eventually the bottom. A little water makes it all so slippery to flip out into your wet hand. Wet the other hand (the one finished using the spatula) and then play a little. It is such a mass of goo! If it runs thru your fingers and you can't hold it, then it is too thin and needs more flour. That's better done in a bowl with a sturdy spoon. I tend to start out with a firmer dough as time will soften it, that and wet hands.
If you want to substitute some of the rye flour for wheat or spelt, mix the substitution into the starter & water first for a few minutes before adding the rye to get the gluten going. Salt plays a major roll in the timing. If you go no salt, the dough will ferment faster and surely be ready for the oven under 5 hours. I prefer not to rush it. Salt free dough should then be retarded in the refrigerator after one hour of room temp. I have not ventured yet in this direction but I had forgotten the salt... once. Always a learning experience. Now I set a timer.
The altus I used was about 4 thick slices of whole Rye broken and bashed up in the blades of a food processor. (Yes it was fun!) Added a tablespoon of water to make them moister. You can actually see darker crust bits in the crumb shot.
Mini
Altus
I wonder if I can use a little deli rye for the altus? I'm not sure I've ever even tasted whole rye bread? Maybe those little tiny loaves they sell for appetizers in the deli? I've been wanting to try a 100%, getting back to my Finn roots, this looks like a good one to start with.
Even if nobody eats it but me, it's still fun to experiment with. What the heck. Dog classes start next week. If nothing else, my dog can eat 100% whole rye, she's on a non-wheat diet!
What spices do you use? Fennel, honey?
Oven temp. / Spices are a mixture
of roasted and crushed Fennel, Coriander, and Caraway. I think Coriander makes up the bulk of the mixture. If you use ground spices it would be better to use less as it is more compact.
I didn't add honey directly, there was a tiny bit in the altus loaf. Any tasty old bread works as long as it's not questionable or moldy or has off tastes. Once I baked a loaf that came out salt free... forgot the salt. After a few Tuscan meals, it got crumbled and dried for altus. I do prefer some rye in the altus but I wouldn't go out of my way to purchase bread just to crumble up into this loaf. With this recipe, I have also removed about 100g of rye and replaced with bread flour then adding about a Tablespoon of water. Works well! The grain alone is naturally sweet for my tastes and I don't see any need to add sweetener.
Oven Temp. I also just noticed I forgot to write I turned down the oven temp after removing the cover while baking by simply turning the dial from convection to upper&lower heat. I will have to sneak that into the main recipe.
Having fun with the ratios
I have also much success using this ratio and switching the flours around. Today is 150g sourdough, 525g water, 690g flour (200g Wheat Bread Flour +500g Rye) 12.5g Salt and 150g broken roasted walnuts. From mixing up the starter/water/flour together (same routine as above) to placing into the oven took 7.5 hours. I guess this is close to a 70% Rye loaf. It sure is looking beautiful in the oven. Rising nicely at 210°C or 410°F Steamed the first 10 minutes then vented the oven. (I am now using a Korean Steam Mini-Oven for this loaf.) Baked for an hour or until inside temp is 96°C or 205°F. This is a larger 24cm pan and therefore a flatter loaf is the result. Wish you could smell this, you will have to settle with crumb shots. Bottoms up!
You can see why I never knew for the longest time that walnuts turned the dough purple...
Mini
It's wonderful!
Steaming really makes wonders!
Hi
Would be tasty with cheese and not only... wonderful loaf Mini.... ;-)
Ah yes, I'm only human...
I went to bake today, doubled the recipe. I figured out the ratio first on paper, then I was looking at notes tacked on the cupboard door. (The quick notes to save time. I have the ratio and it has the grams for 120g starter 150g, 170g and so on....) Something is wrong with my math. Then I looked at the ratio at the top... I had written the wrong numbers. I kept wondering why I was adding more water when I used the cupboard notes... (thought it was the bread flour in substitutes and that was constantly changing) when mixing in the salt and couldn't keep the salt amount constant. I had written 4.6 flour instead of 4.16 flour. Gee wizz! At least I wrote it in the reports what I did even if it wasn't the right ratio. The original ratio works best.
The error is in the recipe above. I have 690g of flour instead of 624g. And nobody noticed! My cheat sheet in the cupboard is being revamped! I'm looking down this Blog for more errors. No worry. Haven't found any more.
Mini
I hate it when I do that! But
I hate it when I do that! But it proves (no pun intended) that even with casual measurements, the dough still becomes bread.
-Elizabeth
retarding in the refrigerator, questionable
"Salt free dough should then be retarded in the refrigerator after one hour of room temp."
My quote and I have to say, I now question retarding in the refrigerator may not work with 100% rye dough. Although this was mentioned in context with substituted flours which may work. Until I have investigated it more, I was attributing more wheat characteristics onto rye. See threads with same dates way down the thread. Rye doughs of 100% seem to have difficulty rising after retardation in a refrigerator.
Mini
Just ordered a Pullman pan-
I figured a pullman pan might work well for this recipe since it's covered. Plus, it will fit well in the RV oven. Let me know if you think that's a bad idea. I'm going to try it next week when I get the pan. If it's a good bread I'll bake a second one to send to my friend in TX. He lived in Denmark and Germany for 13 years and misses his dense rye breads. He hates US pumpernickel from the store.
I'll be mixing up your bread spices for the bread too. Got to make it authentic! Plus, will save some altus from my eric's fav.
Hi Mini, precious as
Hi Mini, precious as usual.
What kind of flour is 960? wholemeal and finely milled? There seems to be a huge variety in the realm of rye flours.
Basically I do rye bread as you described (following your previous advices), with some change in the proportions. I never cooked it in two inverted pans, very nice advice indeed! I agreee with your that working that paste with wet hands is lovely.
The thing that surprises me the most is how this rye starter reacts with salt: the yeasts seemt to be totally indifferent to it! Last time I melted the starter in warm water with 2% of salt inside it and after 2 hours the bread had already doubled. I'm still convinced that there's something magical in rye ;)
I'm looking forward to see your pictures.
I think the salt has more to
do with other enzyme activities going on. The dough breaks down faster without salt. It gives a longer window of workability if introduced at the correct time.
I just bought more of the same wholemeal rye flour and it's not 960, looks like it has a higher ash content, closer to 1060. I was just looking for my reference chart but I think it's here at this link. Scroll to the bottom of the page. How interesting, looks like a light rye but it is whole rye. It is ground very fine like powder. No coarseness. But Rye with a little grit ought to work too. The higher the number, the darker it is, the more protein it contains along with roughage and minerals. I don't think I've seen it here at less than 960 -- seems to be the average in Austria.
Mini
Sounds wonderful Mini
Sounds wonderful Mini,
Can't wait to see the images. Can you give us an approximation of the spices you used? I think that is one area that has a huge impact on the aroma and flavor and yet outside of Austria and Germany are virtually unknown. Maybe now would be a good time to try and work out a formula for that spice mix.
Eric
Spice Mix
Eric,
Mini talks about the spice mix in this posting from a few years ago.
http://tfl.thefreshloaf.com/node/1012/spices-bread
Spice mix amounts & photo
Start with 2% like salt and go up to 3%. That is what I can gather. I looked at 15g of spice and would say, yes, that's about what I threw in maybe a little bit more. Here's a blown up photo of the open jar, as you can see it is lightly crushed, enough to pop open some seed pods but certainly not a powder...
:) Mini o spices
A Magical Amount
"I've been playing around with hydration and there seems to be a magical amount where the rye structure stretches."
Mini,
I bake a lot of rye bread of all types and your sentence about a magical amount reminded me of a perfect rye loaf I made early in my rye career. This was before I was familar with ratios and precentages and I was just blindly experimenting. One of those undocumented experiments came out perfectly. It was a 100% rye with the crumb like a beautifully baked airy whole wheat loaf. I was quite excited about my achievement but regrettably unable to duplicate it. Before perfecting my rye technique I moved on to whole grain wheat.
Your post has reminded me of that perfect rye loaf and I will use your information as a starting point to see if I can recreate that loaf from rye heaven.
Thanks for the inspiration and yet another great post,
Jeff
Crumb shot
I seem to be having troubles with my pics so I'll try here...
The loaf measures 12cm high and 19cm across. Not Bad! This is not fluffy but moist and yummy!
And maybe on the 16th try, I'll get another crumb shot in by golly!
yes! I wish the sun had come out but can't control everything...
Mini, it's really a maxi
Mini,
it's really a maxi bread, fantastic looking! The pictures are perfect.
It doesn't look like 100% whole rye!
Wow, all the 100% whole ryes I've seen are dense, like bricks! Yours looks just like the deli rye I just baked yesterday! I'm ready to give this a try. I just love the taste of rye. I hope my flour is not too coarse. It's a pretty coarse stone ground flour.
Amazing bread, mini! Now, if I only had room for two pots in my camper oven I'd be in business.
Hi Doc! Small fry pan?
Remove the handle from a small frying pan if it fits rim to rim. It's not so deep. My lower pan had a removable handle and the top one was more like a little dutch oven with stubby grips. The idea was to block the blowing action of the oven fan and trap in steam so I wouldn't have to physically add steam to the oven. It worked nicely.
aluminum roaster
I can put a disposable aluminum roaster on top. I can put the dough in a round cake pan. That should all fit in the oven, despite having only a few inches to work with. Might be close but I bet I can do it! I'll give it a try in the next few days, let you know how it works. I have a tiny bit of the heel from my Eric's fav rye and I think maybe another in the freezer from a while ago that I can use as altus.
Today though, I need to use my white starter which was feeling neglected. I think I'm going to do the mixed sourdough or something along those lines from Hamelman's book. We'll see.
From Rainy AZ where we survived our one and only Tornado Warning last night!
Tracy
Just beautiful Mini!
A perfect loaf, and at 100% it must be delicious.
Eric
Very cute!
Mini:
I love you loaf. Thank you for sharing.
Yippee
Starter question
That is one of the prettiest ryes I have ever seen!
I noticed that you did not give a specific hydration for starters. I imagine that is because of the variety of flours available and the varying consistencies of each. Can you share the general range of starter hydrations that seemed to satisfy your requirements?
My rye starters /making a firm starter
I mix my starter using my eyes, feel and ambient surroundings and what I want and expect from a starter. The amounts tend to vary they are not scratched in stone.
I keep a firm starter as basic and back-up. It is mixed very thick, like peanut butter or thicker. It's allowed a few hours at room temp and then put into the refrigerator in a jar with screw on lid, not tightly. After 3 or more days, I can remove spoonfuls from the middle of this starter to refresh/feed and let ferment (8-12hrs) overnight to be used in the morning for mixing into bread dough. It keeps several weeks. (It is not discarded until it has been replaced.)
At the same time... and it happens often I'm playing with several starters at the same time...
If you haven't a firm rye starter, and want one, make one. It doesn't take long, 12 hour feeding schedule... a few days. Take a mature peaking 100% hydration starter, don't thin it with water, and add flour to make a thick paste. Flatten out and let it stand at room temp (between 72°F and 75°F or 21°c and 24°c) covered until it peaks and smells wonderfully sour (it smells like wet flour when just mixed). It will progressively get thinner, stir gently a few times while fermenting, to re-distribute the food and to get to know your goop as it ferments. It will get thick foamy as it rises close to peaking and can hold its own while you slowly stir. Enjoy the aroma and don't forget to sniff it as it ripens. (Caution, addictive! This is how you pleasently get dough on your nose.) A half hour later it starts collapsing as you stir, and that is past the peak, the bubbles go flat and it's high time to feed.
Then take a heaping teaspoon of this, blend with about 30g to 40g of water and enough flour to make another thick peanut butter like paste. This one will be somewhat faster fermenting meaning the yeasts numbers are getting stronger. Repeat every 12 hours.
When the rising process is getting to under 12 hours you can now refresh one more time. Depending on how often you bake, use about one heaping teaspoon for each 100g starter you want to store. Make the paste let it stand room temp for 1-2 hours and refrigerate. Cover loose enough for gasses to escape and tight enough to prevent drying out. Leave it alone for a few days before using.
Preparation for baking. I take a heaping teaspoon (10g) of firm starter for every 100g of starter I want to make (or keep a spoonful (10g) and the dirty jar of a newly refreshed just before peaking starter.) I tend to mix it like a firm starter but just a little bit thinner. If I want it sooner (under 8hrs) I add a little more water. The wetter it is, the faster it goes off or peaks but the harder it is to "read" when it is ready. I decide if it's ready more from smell and bubble activity than from height. If I'm going early to bed, I mix it a little thicker to give it more food, slowing it down so it makes the 12 hours easily. (There is no point in making a faster starter, if I want to have a good nights sleep and enjoy my breakfast and enjoy my bread. My starters work for me, not the other way around. A bakery on the other hand may want a faster starter, then by all means push it to an 8 hour schedule, that's seems to be the limit without suffering too much loss of Lacto beastie activity.)
If you figure out the hydration, please contribute. I don't have any more rye flour to experiment with because I'm busy using up stocks as I'm packing to travel again. The last of my rye went to put my starter into deep sleep for a 3 month nap. A starter awaits me in Korea. It's been asleep since November.
Mini, just an awsome looking Rye ! Congratulations.
BTW, I found these steam ovens just for you :)
http://www.twenga.de/dir-Haushaltsgeraete,Backoefen-und-Zubehoer,Dampfbackofen
Thanks Anna,
They sure are a pricey bunch!
I got quite a deal in Korea, dispite the fact that I can't read the instruction book and all the buttons are written in Korean. Everytime I go back to it, it takes me a few days to remember the basics. My husband doesn't even use the oven when I'm gone. He wanted me to buy the one with the mirowave built in as well but I was worried I would zap a loaf instead of baking it. It is tricky enough trying to figure out if I have steam or not, convection or not, and I don't know if I can turn on just lower or upper heat. I can look at the pictures of food and take a wild guess. I found the dough proofing setting by accident. And strange enough, a few typos!
In Austria, I have, believe it or not, an Amana Oven under the "Perfekt" line. When I purchased it, the sales lady said it was a "no name" brand. "Oh really?" I matter of factly replied, trying not to show the twinkle in my eyes. I took it off their hands, morbidly discounted. It is a wall model, convection, all the oven combos and simple nobs and timer, comparable with a Miele. Only draw back is that it takes a long time to pre-heat for its size and a Miele is better insulated. I do better with convection and a bread capsule. It is more economical too.
Yesterday I was baking spelt buns and decided to pour a little water between the parchment and the baking tray, sort of "floating the buns" to try a different steaming approach. Well I rotated the pan and let the steam out of the oven, did get a good rise, but when I checked to see if the buns were brown on the bottom, the little buns stuck to the parchment. Got flat bottoms that way. They browned nicely for I left them in for another 5 min. because of the sticking. The buns did come off but not as easily as they should have. One bun tore in half as I pulled on it with the oven mitt. Oops! I then slid the whole sheet of parchment to the cooling rack and pulled them easily off later. Chalk that up to parchment peculiarities!
I am still enjoying the last of this Rye in the toppy top most photo. It was a big loaf! The photo shows it lighter in colour than it really is. The flavour is so nutty rich and the crumb has not dried out yet. Lovely with just a scrape of butter. No signs of invading anything on any surface. It wouldn't surprise me if my overnight starter was also 84% hydration. I will check on that after Ground Hog's day.
Mini
Mini, do you see your firm
Mini,
do you see your firm starter more active and yeast-rich than the "liquid" one? I supposed you do or you wouldn't do it, but just to play safe I'm asking... ;)
Yes, without a doubt.
I started out with a liquid starter, most of us do when we start out, demanding little starter... always hungry and easy to spill and slop around!
I converted to a firm starter after seeing JMonkey's articles on firm starters. That first firm starter seemed much more stable and seemed to take care of itself. I could break the chains that demanded so much attention. I fell in love and haven't looked back.
I think of water as a mode of beastie transportation. I use it the way I want to but water does create empty spaces between the food and the beasts (the yeasts are very capable of reaching the food, but the LABs tend to let the food come to them.) It's the amount of flour that feeds the beasts not the amount of water. A big jar of water that contains one cup of flour and 1 million beasts is equal to a small jar of water that contains a cup of flour and 1 million beasts. More liquid does not mean more yeast. Increasing the flour provides more food and the numbers increase as a natural reaction to an abundant food supply. More flour and activity (the starter matures within a 8-12 hour time frame) means more yeasts.
If the starter uses less water, it does have a direct relationship to dough formation... more water or liquid must be added to a dough recipe just to have enough water to make the flour come together. In using a more liquid starter, little or no water is added in the dough recipe. ...Always something more to think about...
Mini
do you mean this article?
do you mean this article? http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/1040/lesson-squeeze-more-sour-your-sourdough
yes, that's one of the articles
I don't see all the pictures that used to be in there. There might be an older article on firm starters as well. I am always amazed by all the wonderful contributions from so many people.
The aroma coming out of this
The aroma coming out of this changeling starter is heavenly!
Careful... starter sniffing is habit forming
comes second to bread spice sniffing... LOL (wickedly)
Thank, Mini.
I appreciate your rich description of your starter process. You are so much more of an intuitive baker than I am at this point that I learn a lot from your approach. I have been using a "George Greenstein" derived 100% rye sour for most of my rye baking, and it will be an interesting challenge to try your methodology.
Jessica
Mini, would a cast iron dutch
Mini, would a cast iron dutch oven work for this bread? They get so hot, I just didn't know.
Syb
I think a cast iron dutch oven would work just fine.
Cast iron tends to burn stuff when it's pre-heated. Two cast iron frying pans would also work if they fit together well. I used a cold oven, most pans or casserole will work. As the iron heats up, the dough rises and the iron transfers heat to the dough to bake it. It may take an extra 30 minutes or so, just add it to the baking time (and subtract from the final proofing time to prevent over-proofing.)
That is why the cover is so important, it not only traps in steam but also prevents the top of the dough from drying and baking before the rest of the dough. If left open (with convection or upper heat element on) a hard crust would develop and it would brown or burn before the bottom finished baking, resulting in a stunted loaf with a light raw bottom.
Mini
moxie
Thanks, Mini. I'm trying to work up the self confidence to try your 100% Rye. I've done only one rye formula before, and it turned out a dismal mess. Of course, I had no idea you treated rye any differently than regular bread flour. You make it sound so easy. Soon.
Syb
It is easy if you know what to expect
That first experience with rye must have driven you crazy. It acts more like it doesn't want to be confused with wheat at all. But with wet hands this sticks stuff can be tamed.
All it needs is a candle!
And it would make a magnificant birthday rye!
That's one amazing bread, Mini. Hat's off to you.
Am going to have to study your formula and technique. I can envision a slice filled with toasted tasty seeds.
Go right ahead and make it seedy!
Roll it in seeds too and let me know how it comes out! I hope you try this. It really is quite simple.
I could pack this full of fruit too... figs, dried cranberries, cherries, dates and nuts... a wonderful fruit cake it would make... soaking the fruit first in rum... lower the oven temp... brushing the fresh baked loaf with orange marmelade. Maybe in the fall...
Mini
OH Goodness! My first centerfold!
Truly a super surprise and Thank You Floyd! Oh my! Oh my! Oh my! My beasties thank you too!
Mini
Terrific Post Mini!
Mini,
So happy to see you on the front page. You are one of our most skilled contributors and this thread in particular is loaded with great information. You have spoken eloquently about how to accomplish a complicated bread. Thank you.
Eric
One of the best pure rye bread this century!
Hi Mini
That is one of the best 100% pure rye bread this century! I shall study all the comments and replies with keen interest. Thank you so much for sharing. Your formula would make a great classic to last to eternity!
Shiao-Ping
You're making me blush!
That's interesting, I study your loaves as well. Time will pass before we see some feed back on the recipe. Not too many out there baking pure ryes.
Astonishing, Mini!
That's truly a loaf for the history books! I'm amazed by the apparent lightness and moistness of your crumb. Obviously you've stumbled upon numbers and ratios that are inextricably linked to the very essence of Nature (and rye).
It reminds me of a quote from the movie Pi:
My assumptions:
1. Mathematics is the language of nature.
2. Everything around us can be represented and understood through numbers.
3. If you graph these numbers, patterns emerge. Therefore: There are patterns everywhere in nature.
I'm wondering if that 1/3.5/4.16 sequence appears in the decimals to Pi... ***off to find a flashlight, dusty old math books, pencil and paper***
Pi or Phi
one is 3.1416 the other 1.618
We all know that a recipe or ratio is not definitive, no golden rule. Most of us tweak recipes. Forget squared pies and just try the ratio. Then you can throw your brick at me if it doesn't turn out! I suppose there could be some formula taking in ash content, moisture, weight, grind of flour, but... my kitchen elves can't read formulas and I see multi-colored graphs in my head. What a combination! They insist the golden rule has something to do with being rewarded for helping me dump ingredients into my dough.
I'm mixing up a spelt dough, did a 1-2-3 and it is a little dry. Half the flour was #700 bread flour. Spelt starter too plus half a cube of fresh yeast. It's rising like crazy, going to have to cool it down. We just got dumped with a foot fresh snow, was shoveling out my car and drive and it keeps coming down. I cleared a path for the postman to reach my neighbor. Would have made a path to the WFO if I had one. Anyway, a good time to take in fresh air and bake bread.
The trick to a spelt loaf it getting it to come out heavy is to add some yeast, keep it cool for a long fermentation, knocking it down a few times before shaping and a short rise. I've been working on a spelt loaf as a mock rye. I know an Austrian allergic to rye, almost every dark sourdough contains rye here. I found that by using the bread spice and spelt sourdough, soaked rolled spelt and yeast, I come pretty close.
Mini
Higher ash content type 1150
Got started on my first loaf in Korea and am using a German Rye #1150 (higher ash content than the original recipe using #960 or #1060.) I had to make an adjustment to 89% hydration (less flour) to get the right consistency. I switched from a spatula to a sturdy wooden spoon for fear of breaking the handle. Turned out to be very wet for handling as time and fermentation progressed. I did find some altus in cleaning out the freezer but that got snatched up before I could hide it. The shredded, crumbed altus does give the dough some body making it easier to handle and I'm sure helping it maintain a nice shape. (The next loaf will also not have altus, my loaf just walked out the door in an office oriented direction. Drat! No picture!)
I didn' have two pans that fit well together and used aluminum foil loosely on top. Not so ideal, the top seemed to bake too soon in my small Korean oven. I like the tighter fit creating a cooler chamber on top for the dough to stretch as it rises. (The secret behind the magic bowl?)
I plan to correct that today. I like the smaller diameter pans for more height. Something around 20cm. The right size pan makes all the difference. I am limited in height so will be searching with my trusty tape measure tho I'd envisioned myself with a callipers. I did think of using the glass lid covered with foil, but it proved too awkward for removal with mitts.
Ratio: 1 (starter): 3.5 (water): 3.93 (rye flour)
I gotta get cracking if I want to get a loaf into the oven today before I sleep. I have to build my starter... it's 8am... warm water and more starter to flour, lets see in 6 hours, two tablespoons to make 200ml starter. Where are those elves? I think they must have jet lag too! Last night I managed to sleep the whole night without waking up at 3am!
Mini
may a pyrex with removable
may a pyrex with removable top be a good choice? I never had particularly exciting bakings with glass, but maybe I made some mistake.
like here?
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/4245/minis-oven-china#comments
I wish I still had mine. So fun to watch the dough!
Oven temperature
I was curious about removing the lid from your bread after 25 minutes starting in a cold oven but I saw a comment about how quickly your oven heats up. do you have any idea how hot your oven is when you remove the top? Maybe in an oven that takes longer to come to full heat the top shoul be removed later. I really like the flavor of rye bread but have a lot of trouble with bread of over 40% rye flour.
Your loaf and crumb look fabulous. I would so like to make it with your spice mix. Thanks for all your input to the web site. Herb
Oven temp after 25 min
As the oven was on convection, it heated faster than it would with just upper & lower heat. It was set to 200°c but might have reached 220°c (428°F.) After removing the top, and rotating the form, I turned off the convection which tends to let the oven temperature drop a little. I'm guessing that with the door opening and all, it was around 200°c. The thick cast aluminum pan would be a little warmer and gradually cool down as the crust is browing.
"Maybe in an oven that takes longer to come to full heat the top should be removed later."
That would make sense. You may have to play around with it a little bit. Adding another ten minutes to the cover time, and browning time is within reason.
If you find the loaf near done, but the color too light, simply remove from the pan and set it on the hot rack to bake for 5 to 10 minutes or until nicely browned. After the loaf is cooled down completely, it can be wrapped into a plastic bag allowing the moisture to move from the crumb to the crust (overnight) softening it somewhat before slicing.
"I really like the flavor of rye bread but have a lot of trouble with bread of over 40% rye flour."
Rye breads over 45% start to take on the dough characteristics of rye which is quite different to wheat. Sticky and not so stretchy. Once over the 50% amount, it is just as easy to go to 60% or 70% treating the dough more like a rye dough and letting the rye work with a sourdough starter thus letting the wheat flour be the added ingredient. It becomes very important not to overknead the dough as the rye amount increases. I like to add the wheat flour right after I add the starter and water when mixing a final dough spending a little time just stirring and letting it sit for the gluten to form before adding the bulk of the rye flour -- sometimes up to 30 minutes later.
Mini
Oven temp after 25 mionutes
Thanks Mini, I will try it adding 10 minutes and using the convection mode which I never did. Maybe I did years ago when I used a preheated cloche ( Is that the right term?). It is so great that you answer all these queries in so much detail. It can't help but do so much for evertbody. Thanks again. Herb
Pi!
Just noticed your post, hansjoakim. I LOVED the movie Pi, although I struggle to remember much of it now - quite some years ago when I saw it! It was very much an arthouse release here, and didn't show for long before it disappeared without trace. The few folk I have discussed it with didn't like it much. So, good to see you quoting from the screenplay. Evidently it made an impression on you.
Mini, what a crumb! I've steered clear of baking pure rye breads, but this one of yours is irresistible!
And to continue on with the application of mathematics to dough mix ratios, this thread reminds me - I've been thinking for a while about how to incorporate Fibonacci numbers into baking. Any ideas?
Cheers
Ross
Fibonacci numbers
How about applying them to the beasties?
Thanks, Mini.
That is probably the best place to start.
Recipe
Hi Mini, I want to thank you for this amazing recipe. I hope that there are going to be more from you coming up soon. It looks really great and I can't wait to serve it to my family.
That's 100% rye?! I can't
That's 100% rye?! I can't believe the loft. You're brilliant, MiniO!
-Elizabeth
Mini, I love your recap of the Korean oven, too funny.
As for the Amanda, wow, great deal !! I am sure they were very relieved to unload it to an unsuspecting foreigner, grin....
On a sadder note, day before yesterday I received my new Romertopf and I immediately tried it out with your Rye loaf. In my excitement I did not read the instructions to grease down the Topf and everything stuck like mad. The biggest disappointment - the Topf wound up with a hairline crack on the bottom, despite handling that aspect acc to instructions, i.e. soak first, insert into cold oven, pull out and set on something warmish or a folded towel which I did.
I can still use the deep top and perhaps use parchment to line it because I feel the soaking properties will be diminished by lathering it with oil.
anna
sorry to hear that
Is there a possibility to get the bottom replaced?
I would oil it, I found myself oiling the inside with every second bake. The oil didn't seem to soak into the pot but more staying on the surface. Soaking with water helps distribute the heat in the pot itself.
Other than sticking, how did the loaf turn out?
Mini
Mini, I spread your word and
Mini,
I spread your word and a friend of mine implemented your bread, but with white rye flour:
http://www.cookaround.com/yabbse1/showthread.php?t=155571
You have a new team of fans just the other side of the Alps;)
Thanks You Nico!
Thank you for the link. I'm honored and so happy to see it working in Italian in Italy! Bravo!
The alps are not so high after all!
Mini
Help Me Please
I come from a long lineage of bakers, Prussia to be exact, I have a dear love of baking that hs come on stronger since I entered my 40's. I am great at Science, and was an assistant Chef, I am experimenting with Rye, and have thrown 6 bricks away, have 2 loaves of molasses Rye that rose to the heavens, and 2 loaves of light rye that are short but delicious. Now! I have a starter, starting, and it is not rye, it's just AP and filtered water, already bubbling, what that says for my atmosphere I don't know, like I don't know what to do with this once it does whatever it's going to do. I am a serious learner and baker, I have no problem with white breads, and quick breads. I love the doing this, I have one rye rising now, crossing my fingers. I need help on several different levels of several different things, like starters for example, how do you use them with just plain white bread, of the Amish variety, or yeast rolls, or what is the difference between a sourdough starter, what is a rye starter and How do you use a starter, I love the concept and I know it is the bible of baking, will someone please help, there is so much information and as a cook, I am shocked I can't wrap my head around it!! 45 Born in America, Texas to be exact.
Could you use some sd basics first?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sourdough
Love your enthusiasm and I hear you! Welcome to the Fresh Loaf!
Starters are not the Bible of baking by no means! They are a tool, or more a pool, of growing and dying yeasts and bacteria varieties that we use to raise bread. By introducing them to our dough, the dough starts to decompose and ferment flavoring it as time goes by. We try to control the process and it is slower than just adding packaged yeast but can be worth your time. Sourdoughs, because they tend to break down the gluten structure of the flour as time progresses, have to be handled more gently, no punching of dough, and the use of folding the dough to build surface strength. Sourdoughs generally are heavier than yeasted doughs so I rarely take the "brick" remarks seriously. I just wish I would have seen them. High % Rye is a whole different dimention in mixing & baking, not anywhere near the fluffy cotton candy loaves many of us grew up on. My brother would eat 4-5 slices at a time!
You might find our search/index box useful. Type anything that comes to mind and see where it leads you. (avoid single words like flour, starter, suggestion, water or recipe) If you wish to speed up your learning curve, try checking out any of the mentioned books from your local library.
If you find interesting threads and want to find them again (sometimes a real challenge) click on the "add to favorites" at the bottom of each introduction article and it will be listed at "My Account" under your name.
On the suggested link, here is a well written paragraph under "History" that goes into detail as to why sourdough and rye are ment for each other.
Mini
more questions on the flour
Mini, looks fabulous and tasty! If I were to grind the rye myself from rye berries, how would I best approximate this flour? how fine to grind, and do I sift off some bran, or should it be the whole berry.
I love 100% ryes! this one looks exceptional.
Beautiful
It does and is what I am trying to achieve! I am using Hodges Mill and am tearing my hair out at this point.
Don't throw it into the dough!
I know hair is protein but I wouldn't use it. :)
What's the problem? How fine a flour is Hodges Mill? Sometimes only a little hydration adjustment is needed. Show me a picture of that hair raising loaf! The more detail the better...
Bread
Okay,
it is probably one of the best I have tasted, won't rise above the bread pan but absolutley delicious, I am not using a starter, don't know how to, have started one though and it smells sour, like sourdough but prefer rye. I feel so lost and I have been baking and cooking all my life. I'll try and post a picture, my profile picture is my molasses rye, that rises to the heavens. The flour is grainy, ash colored, not like the first flour I used which was finer, probably my problem. I want to use starters though and don't know how to, even though there is one sitting on my counter, do I sound panicked, I am. If this were anyone else I would be laughing so you may if you like.
A Clasac starter
Thank you, and I'm smiling, I'm enjoying it only because I've been there. Nothing to get paniked about. Pour youself a cocktail or a beer and let's play with that starter. If it is at least 4 days old and bubbling away (which may be hard for me to believe) reduce it to... wait a minute. Do you know why you want to use a starter with rye?
Hi Buns!
I know my rye flour is very fine, I would increase the water a little bit if you include the bran. If you check the Flour table listed way up on the 960 talk, you might get a better idea.
I don't see any reason not to include the bran.
If you sift off bran, do you use it to feed the starter?
Thank you
Okay no i am using ap flour to feed the starter, I want to start from the very beginning and do this right, I have uploaded pictures, do I need to make a rye starter? And if so, do I leave the bran in it? And where do I find the recipe for a rye starter and bread?
The bran question was directed
to someone else.
thanks MiniO
Putting the bran in the starter is a good idea, as it'll have more organisms on it. Good idea.
Usually I've just been putting it in my next loaf, or if it's a coarser ground and the siftings have small crumbs of grain I put it on my back deck and the little songbirds on the ground like it.
Maybe not for adding new organisms
But more for the older ones because it's food!
(No subject)
Clasac, how old is the starter?
You do not need to make another starter from scratch, you can simply add half AP and rye to this one at the next feeding. The rye is perfect food for a starter, in fact many starters start with rye. It will be no trouble at all. How old is the starter and when did you feed it last?
Mini
oops
I just dumped it, I want to start fresh, and it was really only 3 days old, and it was bubbling like you wouldn't believe, and smelled to high heaven. So what do I do, and yes I want to make a nice rye, light in color preferred.
Probably a good idea
now go get yourself some unsweetened pineapple juice and make one using rye flour. It is a better way to go.
The pineapple lowers the pH in the flour so the stinky stuff you just had is less likely to happen. Mix equal weights rye and juice, cover and let stand. Stir every few hours. I suggest using a cover of plastic wrap and a rubber band for easy access.
Mini
Read: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/10901/pineapple-juice-solution-part-2
Don't forget to read some of her other blogs!
okay I will do that
Question, should I do 1 or 2 cups of each and what will that mean for the finished result. And do I sift the rye first? It has alot of stuff in it.
no need to sift, Clasac
A lot of crushed and whole rye flour is used to feed rye starters. The more unsifted it is, the better your chances of growing a starter. Leave the stuff in. I took the liberty to have your dumped starter picture removed. Hope you don't mind! I'm glad you started anew.
Mini
Starter so far
It is very pasty, though not dried up, feeding this morning 2T to 2T, very thick, is this okay or do you have more suggestions, I am using the pineapple recipe, it wants my to dump half tomorrow, and boy there isn't much there to dump.
I read that and wow, starts
I read that and wow, starts with just 2 T of each, I can do that, I want to do it step by step, I will ad-lib when I know the dance floor a little better, you are a doll and I love you already, thank you so much, I will keep you posted.
This is my Molasses Rye
That is quite a spring on the rye!
The TFL elves turned your pictures into thumbnails, a much better idea. I was feeling funny about that.
Is there a lot of rye in those loves?
Mini
FUZZ!!!!!!!!!
I went to feed my little pet, named JOBA, and and he is growing fuzz on the side of the jar, it is white fuzz bu it is fuzz, I have a cut zip lock bag over the top with a ponytail holder wrapped around it for the top, it is in a pint mason jar, so is this okay? Beings this is not a chia pet, I didn't think I should have "hair" growing, thoughts? Am I to throw this out> I was getting attached.
Fuzz after only one day?
Was the jar clean? 75°F temp is just fine for room temp, too warm might get fuzzy. Try adding a spoon more of pineapple juice. Maybe, flour that didn't get mixed in? Sorry I was gone a few days... What's it doing now?
Mini
Bread Spice
Mini:
You said "4 tablespoons bread spice for 500g flour "
What is bread spice?
Bread Spice is a mixture
of roasted and crushed Coriander seed, Caraway seed, and Fennel seed. It is sold in Austria and Germany for adding to rye and mixed rye bread dough. As mentioned earlier, the information is here:
http://tfl.thefreshloaf.com/node/1012/spices-bread
re: bread spice
I just made some beautiful caraway rye (not 100% rye; I'm chicken) bread. Now I'm sorry that I didn't see this thread before mixing the dough. I've got to try adding coriander, caraway AND fennel seeds!
-Elizabeth
2 Rye Flours
I have 2 rye flours one real grainy and one very soft, so can I mix the 2 they are both whole grain. This is a container issue.
You can do anything you desire
You might want to add a note to the bag that you added the other to it. As far as feeding starters go they are pretty much equal. I don't normally mix my flours, I'm always looking at the bags for some odd reason. Up to you.
starters
Oh and can I make 2 starters out of the one I am doing, today I have to discard all but 1/4 cup and feed it any flour I want, and I though to do one wheat and one rye, so as not to throw out any of Joba
Get the one going gangbusters first
Then split it. The few tablespoons you throw away will save you waiting & worry later. This mixture is rather unbalanced in the beginning and better not being saved.
Mini
italian test
Hi Mini,
I´m Linda, Nico´s friend, and I´m going to do for the second time this wonderful bread.
Which is your advice for altus in this bread? I´ve some in the freezer.
Is it possible in your opinion to work?
And, if I put altus, I´ve to put less flower and water then, to have the same final weight? And in which step I´ve to do this? In the very beginning?
Excuse me for the language. I´ll use few words and I hope to understand your replies.
Linda
Ciao Linda!
Here is a link to a post on using Altus
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/13369/altus-amp-formula#comment-81363
I do not figure it into the dough formula for home baking. Weigh the normal frozen bread and use up to 33% of the total weight of the dough. So if you add up all the ingedients and it comes to say 1kg, don't use more than 333g of altus in the recipe. I use less.
The altus can be added in a number of ways:
You can do that, but reduce the sourdough starter too. I suggest to start out with a smaller amount of starter for the formula for a small form. Think of adding altus like adding nuts or raisins. Altus from rye bread is preferred.
Mini
altus
Ciao Mini ;-),
thanks a lot for the info. Sorry for my mistakes.
Of course we are talking about 100% rye bread and rye flour
Linda
no, not really, altus
Ciao Linda!
I've put rye altus (maximum wheat 50%) in plain white bread (100%) as well. It just comes out with lots of little spots of rye, freckled. I usually taste the rye altus first, sometimes it doesn't make it into the loaf. I eat it instead. Good altus makes more good bread if it gets that far. :)
Mini
Mini, this looks
Mini, this looks scrumptious! It's the first non gluten-free food to tempt me in a long time.
I dropped in to make a quick post in the gf section, and had to read about that gorgeus loaf!
my first Mini loaf with white rye flour with seeds
Hi Mini, this was the first one, of about 1.300 gr.
Today I´m going to do the secon one, with altus, but seems not so good looking as the first
Linda
That's a beautiful loaf, Linda!
I saw your loaf on the Italian site. Impressive! Thank you so much for posting it here!
I hope I'm not too late to suggest you give the second loaf some extra time in the oven with the altus to make sure it bakes completely. These loaves tend to be so moist they are hard to overbake! ... but easy to underbake.
It might be fun to venture over the Alps and drop in on you all!
Mini, S Korea
1-3,50-4,16 rye bread with altus 30%
Hi Mini, it´so nice to talk with someone over the Alps.
If you´ll come in Rome, you can call me and we can have a "pizza" together ;-)
only eating maybe, speaking ... a little bit less ;-)
As I told you, this is my second test of your bread.
I put 150 gr of altus (a left over rye frisian bread, but I didn´t like the texture of that bread).. in 840 gr of the last dough
Maybe I could put the altus together with the salt, after 1 hour, but I forgot and I put immediatly with the last starter, rye and water.
Like the first one, I followed 3 phases of work (3 poolish)
I´ll show you the slice tomorrow night;-) - Bye
Linda
p.s. - here the slices.
Maybe due to the fact that was stuck into the pot, so that I didn´t get out for the final cooking, this time the bread is too wet ...
or... you were right Mini: a longer cooking was needed
...but wonderful, as usual
Linda, Looks like a light crumb!
Too bad the bottom stuck. I have had that happen too. Glass is good for it. Try a little butter. Many times it sticks when it is not done baking. You can't have beginner's luck all the time! :) The crumb looks good!
You'd be surprised how well I can communicate without knowing a language. Anyway I know the next loaf on the way to the oven. Beautiful tablecloth!
Try a smaller pot for a higher loaf Or increase the amount of dough for that pot.
Mini
Ok Mini
thanks for the advices, I´ll do in the way you suggest.
The tablecloth is actually a dish for cakes from Liguria-Le-Cinque-Terre (beautiful land)
Bye..
Linda
A few questions
Hi, Mini:
If not doubled, then how do we judge when the time is right to bake? What are the visual guidelines?
What are the factors contributing to the beautiful glossy appearance of your loaf? Is it the steam, oven temperature, shaping technique, or something else? Please advise. Thank you.
Yippee
Doubling with this loaf would be overproofing
Because Rye is Rye, it just can't stretch that far and hold itself up. Let it double in the oven with the oven spring so the oven heat can set it.
Visual indicators or guidelines as to when the loaf is oven ready... other than volume... that loaf being 100% Rye using only a rye sourdough starter, no added yeast:
Knowing your starter, knowing how high you can actually let it rise before it falls. Paying attention to your dough & room temp. If you're thinking "Wheat" then the rise of rye will be faster and surprise you. Don't compare rye to wheat. Work with rye on its own terms. Being able to estimate correctly when it will be ready is half the work in observing when the dough will be ready to bake.
The form has a lot to do with how long you can let it rise also. The narrower the form, the closer the outside walls are together, the more the form supports the rise. Then one might actually shoot for "double." Gosh be careful! Once it falls, there is no way it will get up again. Then it will have to be treated as a build and blended with fresh flour (salt & water) to get it to rise again.
The dough is getting close to overproofing when any small & medium size (tiny to green pea size) gas bubbles work their way to the surface, and indicator that the dough structure is breaking down and instead of trapping gas, releasing it. (or the hydration is too high) Some may even start to pop on the surface leaving little craters. If you smooth the wet surface of the dough after shaping and as it ferments starts to get bumpy, that might indicate maximum rise.
I pushed a loaf one time to what I thought was the "brink". I had docked the risen dough and moistened the surface lightly with water. In the oven, the dough had just started to rise but I could see bubbles boiling out of the wet docking holes. Reminded me of Yellowstone paint pots. All that gas, gas to raise my loaf, was escaping! I was worried. I had not seen that before. By the time it cooled, the loaf did not rise any higher than when it went into the oven. Thank goodness it didn't sink. One should not get that close to testing maximum rise. It was a loaf I had retarded and was not sure how far it was along in the fermentation. I had underestimated it.
I believe the surface shine is caused by moisture condensing on the dough surface. Steam is either trapped in the cover or lid to the pot or plenty of steam is in the oven. Sometimes I spray a little water on my dough before it goes into the oven. I also cover the dough with a lightly oiled thin shower cap, the cheap thin variety, while fermenting. There might be a trace of olive oil on the surface.
Mini
Thanks so much, Mini,
for enlightening me on the 'mysterious' rye !
Yippee
oops, did I write too much?
It's snowing! ...and there really is nothing for me to do except... well it doesn't help that I have a chunk of rye bread in my hand. What are you up to?
Mini
What I'm up to...
I've been admiring your cake-like rye loaf and wondering why my 90% rye turned out like a biscotti. Been also comparing rye roux with gelatinized rye in Lepard's 100% rye formula and testing your cool-oven technique with one of the loaves. Another one is continuing with retard in the fridge.
Did it ever occur to you that a retarded rye dough (with 2% salt, already slowly fermenting at 76F for 3 hours before I had to put it away) shows no sign of activity even hours after it's taken out of the fridge? I'm also building a firm rye starter and trying to get to know it before utilizing it in my next rye mix.
Yippee
Yes, and it is creepy, glad you brought it up!
Yippee, we are on to something...
"Did it ever occur to you that a retarded rye dough shows no sign of activity even hours after it's taken out of the fridge?"
I don't like to retard high % rye in the fridge for that very reason. I'm glad you brought it up. I tend not to retard if I don't have to. I have slowed it down in a cooler room (10°C-15°C) but that is not as cold as my refrigerator (4°C). Maybe putting it into the fridge firms up the structure to the point of no stretch (more so than wheat) and so all the action is compacted under the surface. The last time I retarded a loaf (and it was in the fridge) I had underestimated the fermentation. Thinking about it now, doing it again, I would not let the cold dough warm up or re-shape (shape before retarding) and simply spray with some warm water and place my warm hands on the top surface to warm the top up a little and then into the oven, covered might be better. I don't know if I would dock it. I would judge that when I gently rest my hands on it.
What did you do with your loaf, Yippee? Sorry we're in different time zones.
For comparisons... I have never had a rye starter "go over" or expand much in the fridge, but it has on the counter. That didn't mean it wasn't active, it just didn't rise when very cold. Break the cold stiff surface and the inside bubble structure is evident. As a starter it doesn't matter but as a dough, as a dough, maybe there should be some lower temp limits as to retarding, warmer temps than wheat. Gives something to think about when using wheat/rye combinations doesn't it? A 70% rye would retard differently than a 40%rye.
Mini
What I did...
Seeing no signs of activity after leaving it out at 76F for 6 hours, I decided to give it up and use it as a guinea pig for testing your cool-oven technique. I left it out for another 7 hours at the same temperature when I was sleeping. Nothing happened. It only rose about 1/3 in size before I retarded it so it's absolutely not ready for baking. I put it in a Japanese made Shabu-Shabu clay pot and set the oven to 410F and checked it after 45 minutes. The internal temperature of the dough was only 125F. I removed the lid and stuck the probe of my talking thermometer in the dough and set the receiver at 205F. I forgot how long it took to reach that temperature, probably another 20-30 minutes.
Measuring the doneness by internal temperature provides more assurance to me and I felt more comfortable than just by looking at the clock. However, I'm wondering how to adjust this method for dough with various weights. Lepard's final dough is about ½ the size of yours and the formula calls for only 50 minutes of baking at 410F. Would the extended bake dry out the dough excessively? Would lowering the temperature after the lid is removed compensate for moisture loss? What do you think?
One interesting thing I noticed during this extended cool-bake test, I smelled a very sweet aroma which I did not experience when making the 90% rye. Is that the heavenly aroma you're talking about in your write-up?
For the remaining retarded dough, I don't have any high hopes for it after reading your comments about retarding high % rye. I warmed it up back to room temperature more quickly today by setting my proofer at 100F. I'll observe if it revives. If not, no biggie. I'll make sure the dough is salt free and leave it in a warmer spot if I plan to retard in the future.
Yippee
Temperature and not salt
that is the problem.
Leaving out the salt when the sourdough in mixed in would speed up fermentation and not in any way retard the dough.
I was looking for rye temperature information and it is interesting that rye's ideal rising/stretching final proof temperature is higher than wheat by a few degrees C. So it might make sense that cooling temps should also be warmer than wheat. What I don't understand is the rye dough loosing its stretch, its ability to return to being elastic when it is warmed up again.
I'm working on an experiment. It involves using a refreshed starter and small amounts of dough letting it (1)rise and mature on the counter top (23°C) (2 & 3) in the refrigerator and warming up to room temp. Also investigating (4 & 5) cool room temp. And then a second experiment mixed (70% and 50%) rye/wheat flour to see if it reflects any wheat influence in retarding. I'm waiting on a room thermometer and refining my details so I can get sleep during the experiments.
Mini
Speeding Up
My thought was that once the retarded dough is out of the fridge, it will be easier to pick up the speed to return to the normal state if salt is not present.
I made your bread today. Waiting to cut them up. Should I wait one or two days? Thanks.
Yippee
Rye, final dough, 8 hour limit
"This loaf will self distruct in maximum 8 hours!"
I have rediscovered that there exists a natural time limit when mixing up a 100% rye dough: Do not let the dough ferment beyond 8 hours from the time you start mixing up your final dough to the time it goes into the oven! Once mixed up, it's an enzyme time bomb! Now doesn't that make baking more exciting?
Enzymes break down the rye sourdough starter too, but the goal is to produce yeast and flavor and acid, not to raise the dough. Letting a starter ripen beyond 8 hours is not a big concern but to raise a dough, it is good to know that the enzymes activated in the dough will not let the dough be workable beyond 8 hours, less hours when a large portion of ripe starter is used or the temperature rises. There are many ways time is shortened but to lengthen working time calls for magic. I don't mess in magic. :)
It is good to know that if I wait 8 hours and no rise has occured, it will not. (So if you find yourself waiting up, tired and need your sleep, chuck it into the refrigerator and dream instead. Deal with it later.) Retarding the dough only slows down yeasts and bacteria, not the enzymes. The only solution to make the dough then rise after 8 hours, is to add more flour (suggestion of bread flour) water, salt and a good dose of instant yeast, using the exausted dough as a starter for a mixed rye/wheat bread. Then work at feeding the starter healthy so it can raise the next loaf.
So the general idea is to get the shaped dough almost risen at temperatures of 24° to 33°C (75° to 91°F) and baked before the delicate structure breaks down turning our lovely dough into bricks.
Mini
applied new knowledge
I mixed up a 50% rye with wheat flour sourdough today. Rather curious if it would fall apart at 8 hours too. I'm guessing it wouldn't but who knows? So I mixed it up 170g starter, 600g water and used wheat bread flour at 12%, some AP at 9%, a few heaping soup spoons of spelt and even a cup of chopped roasted walnuts.
At the one hour mark I kneaded in enough AP with the salt and walnuts to make a nice medium dough working in quite a bit of flour. I let it ferment for 3 hours and kept thinking about the rye. I reshaped with wet hands and let it rise in the form for another 3 hrs debating with myself whether or not to bake it when 8 hours are up. The dough did rise some but not as much as I had expected considering the temp. and allotted time. The dough seemed rather firm, I might have given it a few hours more to rise but I wanted to see what would happen if I let the clock be my guide instead of feel as far as a 50% rye goes. I preheated the oven. The dough showed no signs of escaping bubbles but had run sideways to fill the form and was slightly domed. I popped a pea size bubble near to the surface and pushed a walnut back under the dough.
Eight hours rolled around and I lightly scored two cresent cuts )) into the top and steamed no cover at 230°C for 10 minutes. Rotated the pan 1/4 and turned it down to 210°C (funny, the lazer gun thermometer- instant read >borrowed from work< says the walls of my Korean oven are 180°C.) The scoring first closed up but then tore open very dramatically after around 20 minutes into the bake. This loaf had doubled its size from the time it went into the oven! At first I was not worried about it hitting the top of the oven. Half way through the bake I covered the top of the loaf with foil and removed the lower trivit. Wow!
I have not yet had a half rye/wheat rise this high in my 24cm pan! So the real discovery is... Getting the dough into the oven before the rye breaks down does make a difference!
(at least at 50% rye and above) Too hot to cut at the moment...
Great bread
and great principles. Not letting the surface begin to pierce. I'll remember it.
Thanks Mini!
Here's the crumb shot
50% rye with wheat and roasted crushed walnuts under 8 hours.
How much dough for container formula?
How do you calculate the amount of dough for the container size? Your dough looks like it fit perfectly in your pot. I assume if it was too big it would end up dense, too small and it wouldn't meet the edges and top, become flattened from not being supported.
So, how to calculate the right amount of dough for the container? I'm going to be using a small pullman pan, 9X4X4. Any ideas about how to calculate this? There is a recipe for a white sandwich bread for this pan on the king arthur website, I can hop over there and see how much the dough weighs if that helps at all.
Thanks!
Doc Tracy
Hi Doc! I might cross check
with a heavier type loaf, like a pumpernickel. A white sandwich loaf is not only a different flour, it has a totally different texture and crumb.
Let me see, was it txfarmer that was working with pan sizes? Yes, http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/14315/horst-bandel%E2%80%99s-black-pumpernickel-finally
My loaf did rise into the upper pot by about 1 1/2inches or more! Because the air leaks out by the side crust faster than the dough can trap it, it doesn't create a problem.
I find 150g starter works well in a 20cm round pan, 170g starter in a 22cm round pan, 190g in a 24cm round pan and so on. Looks like for every 10g more starter a 1cm can be added to the diameter of the pan. I should try this theory out with a 4 kg loaf! :)
Mini
Sounds like calculus to me!
Man, I feel a calculus problem coming on. What is the volume of a round pot vs a rectangular pan? Then, how much dough by weight can each hold after they have risen to full height? Consider that the round pot has a lid that is elevated by 1 1/2" above the pot and the pullman pan has a flat lid at the top of the pan. This could be complicated!
Who was it out there that wanted a problem including Pi? Come on now, we need all the mathemeticians to get in on this. I've got a good one for you! I had calculus oh, about 30 years ago and I dumped that storage compartment years ago. Didn't seem to need that part of my brain for doctoring or medical school.
Thanks for the link, I will check that out! Txfarmer always has good stuff!
The pot could not be
The pot could not be perfectly cylindrical, better leave maths alone if you don't want to solve an integral ;)
You had better weigh how much water the pot can contain and assume the volume is the same, expressed in liters (it's not exactly the same but it's a good approximation). I mean that 1KG of water accounts for 1 liter.
1kg=1Lof water!!
Great idea for an estimate. Water weight for liters for an approximation. I should be getting my pullman pan from KA today or tomorrow. I'll give the water test a try and see how it works. Can't wait to try Mini's Magic Rye!!
yes but 1kg dough is more
volume with CO2 bubbles, it takes up more room than what 1kg of water would. So one would not fill the pan full. A little over half unrisen, maybe 3/4 after shaping and 1/2 inch under the edge when it goes into the oven. Calculate for half the pan.
Mini
long bakes
The figures sound about right. Without the altus my loaf with the 150g starter runs between 50 and 60 minutes. I prefer a probe thermometer too. I've gotten hollow sounds on unfinished loaves. A tall round loaf requires more time than a batard.
No, The crust seems to form a protective shell around the whole loaf and I haven't dried one out yet. There is just too much moisture in there to begin with.
Never thought about it. Steam actually comes off the loaf when the lid is removed so stay clear of the steam. I lower the temp so the fan is not blowing on my exposed loaf and it doesn't brown too fast. I open the door to let out the moisture. Moisture loss?
it is now officially a starter or build (with a few extra ingredients) so why not add some water & bread flour (flour the weight of the starter) give it some salt and shape it. Watch it grow in your oiled pan at room temp. It might only take a few hours before it is short of doubling and then bake it. It will be sour.
If you retard this rye recipe in the future, avoid the refrigerator. Don't forget some salt, the problem here seems to be the enzyme activity continues dispite the cold, so eliminating the salt would not be good, it might not help. I think what the extreme cold does to the rye is to stop the delicate stretching structure.
Could very well be that my ratio recipe does not lend itself to refrigerator retarding, and a recipe using more steps or builds with a shorter final proof would be better for your schedule.
Mini
Overnight schedule?
Is there anyway to do this bread overnight? I'd really like to work it into an overnight schedule. This week is crazy and I can't get a 10 hour block of time to do it but I really have my hopes up to bake this bread for my weekly bread.
Maybe it could bulk proof overnight, shape and go in the oven after 45 minutes or so? I'm willing to get up a little early if needed, no problem. It's the shaping at 3 hours I can't work out.
Tracy, adding a new trick to this dough, fun!
At first I thought, no. Then maybe if you set an alarm clock. Straight thru huh? You could forget about shaping and try just docking before going into the oven. Mix the loaf, shape it and let it rise for 7hrs. & no touching. Rye not? In the airconditioning...
Try it and see.
Significance of Starter Hydration
Mini:
In your formula, the starter used is at 100% hydration and your magic ratio is 1s : 3.5w : 4.16f. I did a simple calculation; the prefermented flour in your final dough is about 11%. What is the importance of using a starter at 100% hydration? Can a starter with a hydration other than 100% be used if adjustments are made to ensure the prefermented flour in the final dough remains at 11%? Would it negatively impact the outcome? Please advise. Thank you.
Yippee
Yippee, the % of prefermented dough
is not the concern. The amount of yeast in the prefermented dough is the concern. As long as the starter is strong and full of yeast. I found the recipe improved as soon as I reduced the % of prefermented dough into the recipe. I would love it it someone would put my ratio into a baker's formula and put it into this Blog.
I used the same recipe with half the amount of starter, hardly 100g but changed the way I put it together. The starter was sour, strong and very active, it had also sat retarded in the refrigerator a full 24 hours. The water was warm and I added 100g rye flour and some bread flour to make a soup and let it stand 2 hours to give a kick to the fermentation. Then I added the rest of the flour as bread flour and AP until it was all mixed in. Then it sat another hour before I kneaded in the salt. I managed to still get the shaped loaf (with several hourly sets of stretches & folds) with slashes into the oven after 8 hours from the time I started adding water to 100g starter. (Room temp 24°C.) Don't ask me the % of rye, this became a wheat loaf flavored with rye.
I don't think a starter with lower hydration would be a problem, but with a higher hydration starter, some water should be removed from the recipe and replaced with starter. All that calculating is fine if you want to do it. Those who keep high hydration starters regularly reduce the water in a (100% hydration starter) recipe replacing with more starter, I know I would if I had a wetter starter.
Mini
At Your Service
In appreciation of your generous and unconditional sharing of information, this (plus a few virtual kisses) is the least I can do:
Do you like the colors? If not, let me know your preference.
Yippee
Crumbs of March 24th
Very tasty, rather airy. Taken at night in the kitchen with a few light "shadows" however the crumb is an even color.
Thank You Yippee!
A big virtual kiss and a bigg hugg to boot! Thank you, Thank you, Thank you!
Mini
NO, THANK YOU !!!
for this very precious first lesson in rye bread!!! I've got something to show you. Well, just to tease you a little (I simply don't have the time to do it now), may be in the next few days. I hope I'll make you proud. Can't thank you enough!
Kissy Kissy!
Yippee
Handling sticky rye dough
I was enjoying the lovely ovens and handling of rye dough in this video.
First of all, I think this is the filming of a special moment, the official opening of the "new ovens" with lots of people and guests milling around. After the oven is fired, the dough is mixed. The dough is weighed and tossed around in a wooden bowl (warning: rather dusty way of doing things, wouldn't be bad outside, flour dust is bad for you...) then flopped into waiting floured dishtowel lined basket. Watch carefully to not miss "the poke test." The baker has a neat set up with the oven (& chimney) keeping everything around the oven so tidy! A beautiful kitchen!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1ULnT9w3Fo
Mini
Shaping rye dough-
Anything special about shaping high percent rye? It seems almost like cake batter. I'm wondering, when you say "don't shape for at least 4 hours before baking" what exactly do you do in terms of shaping? Can you elaborate your rising and proofing phases? Do you do any folding? Do you just plop into your pot? Or, do you actually attempt to shape it? How many hours of rising before you shaped?
My camper is pretty warm now with spring coming on (about 77-80) so I know I'll need to make adjustments unless I do it at night or with the AC on but just want to get a basic idea of this part of your method. I've got my starter building now.
I'm planning to mix up some of the bread spices, although I think I'm missing cumin or coriander seeds. Maybe I can dig some up in the bottom of the spice box. Maybe I'll use some dried onion or lemon zest instead. Sure wish my husband hadn't eaten every last crumb of my last loaf of rye so that I could have some altus to use! Have you tried using any seeds in this yet? Like flax or millet?
Tracy
Shaping rye dough
Don't do too much. Shaping is more like pushing the sides under, once or twice, trying not to trap any air into the dough. I tend to shape more when the dough is loaded with nuts trying to keep them inside and create a smooth surface without too much stretching.
To me it feels more like meat loaf or a big ball of hamburger (minced) meat that won't keep its shape. If you rest it in your hand too long, it also wants to sag between your fingers.
Make it round, smooth and wet on the surface (seeds really stick well) add any decoration and just cuddle it and tell it how it will be so appreciated and that it will rise to better heights. :)
If you want a jagged surface or want to experiment with spreading it out and folding accordion style to tuck into the form, now is the time, if you can -- in the first half of the ferment. If 8 hrs being total ferment time at 24°C dough and room temp. (with fermenting starting the minute the rye flour and water are mixed) then 4 hours would be the middle of the ferment. After the 4 hour mark or 4 hours before the 8 hour end mark, or halfway thru the total fermenting time, the dough structure becomes too fragile to work and recover while it is rising. So don't too much other than dock it, spray it or sprinkle on seeds in the last half of the ferment or score it if you want to. In the latter half of the ferment, the dough can be lifted with parchment under it, not too big a problem. But you want to be gentle with it.
Total fermenting time will be influenced by factors such as room temp, dough temp, added sugar or malt, and reduction in salt. You don't have to push it to 8 hours, don't let the dough "double." Just be aware that after 8 hours the internal supporting structure can fall at any moment. Careful not to slam any oven doors! leave a window open and pray for magic. Don't let it rise that long is the best advise.
Rising or bubble formation actually starts from the moment the starter is added to the water and the flour gets wet. As you have warmer temps, Tracy, add the salt to the flour and stir in before adding to the water. (If you add the salt to the thinned starter, it may clump the protein and form lumps.) If it really gets hot, up in the 80°'sF, you may want to add 2% salt to your sitting out starter. This will slow it down so it responds like with winter temps. Salt also does a cute chemical trick with binding up the proteins so the enzymes have a tougher time breaking down the structure adding more hours to the self distruct mechanism I warn about.
Mini
Thanks Mini!
Thank you so much for all the wonderful instruction. I'm ready to bake. I've done two builds on my starter. It's a little firmer than yours but I'll adjust the hydration in the final dough. I did add a touch of salt, as I've been doing lately because my starter has been going crazy in my warm cabinets.
I'm so excited to try this! I'm also baking Hamelman's multigrain rye tomorrow, one of our favorite breads for everyday. But, I've been wanting to bake your bread ever since you posted it. I bought a pullman pan just for it. (i'll pull back the lid when it's time)
I'll need to do a rye dance tonight before going to sleep. Dance to the rye gods!
It's Up!
Mini:
Please visit my blog to see the write-up of my attempt of your wonderful bread. Thank you very much again for your time and instructions.
Yippee
Yippee, you are welcome!
Anytime! It's the least I can do. I had been avoiding the retarding thing for a long time. Because I didn't understand it. Thanks for the push! Oh, and once you bake it, it's your bread! Congratulations on your bread!
I think your 100 % looks
I think your 100 % looks magical too! Can't wait to try the ratio out. I will rev up my rye starter in the week. What a great post ! best Zeb
It's rising now!
I mixed it up and it's in the proofing container. I added spices-fennel, caraway and a little cumin (didn't have any coriander). I added one drop of lemon extract. I would have gone to get some zest but I was too lazy to go outside and get it. The extract is pretty strong and I could detect the tiniest hint of citrus. I was afraid to add more.
Also resting-the multigrain rye from "Bread". I made it with whole wheat white. My poor husband resorted to buying a loaf of high fiber bread from the store yesterday. It will probably get composted (he said it tasted like caca). Nice to know that he appreciates my baking enough that he can't stand to go without it! The high fiber used to be his favorite, now it tastes like caca! Ha ha!!
Doing the rye magic dance now!!
Thank you Mini-
This is awesome. I could never have done this without you. I think the only change I'll make next time is to get the coriander. The cumin is a little strong even though I only put a dash of it in. It's amazing! I wish I could let everyone taste it. It's tangy, sweet, smoky. It almost tastes like molasses. The sourdough tastes shines right through but in a really good way.
Oh WoW, Tracy! Now That's a Loaf!
I just want to whistle!
Mini
Oh My!!!!
I just checked the temp on my loaf. Since I'm baking in the Pullman pan it was a nice surprice. Oh my, what a nice surprice. I had gotten another inch of rise, at least, beautiful brown color and what a lovely shiney sheen. Steam just came off when I slid the lid back. And the smell! It's unbelievable! I can't wait. Do I really, really have to wait until morning? I still have about 20 more minutes until it's done. I really can't wait. Why do I have to wait sooo long to taste it?!!
It is a test. To see if you give in to temptation.
Well, there is a trick. While it is still warm (look left, look right, no sd police in sight and Mini split for the moment to do some laundry)...
Ok, listen up. Shhhh... Whisper... cut off a chunk (using a bread knife) from the end and make it big enough that you don't come back for a second piece. Hard enough on the loaf... like an earth quake... now to prevent the cut end from drying out... tip the cut onto a board leaving the loaf straight up into the air to cool. If anyone asks, it's to save counter space and the rack is too big and bulky. When cool, bag it if you want a softer crust. Then cut it the next day to straighten out the cut and no one is the wiser if you sneak off with the evidence.
Now remember, Mini did not write the above paragraph. We are experts at sneaking tid bits.
Elvis, Elf from Mini.
Mini!!
Don't you know the SD rye police read this? They'll be at your door any minute. I'm afraid for you now. They could put you in SD prison, make you bake with commercial yeast and bleached white flour, no spices forever. They might not evey give you yeast. They might make you use baking powder. Course, you'd have some starter in about 4 days, hiding under your shirt where they wouldn't even know. LOL!!
The loaf made it until morning without one sneak of a taste and then, it was half gone, 2/3 gone. I put my foot down and said we have to save 2 slices for my brother to taste today because he's allergic to commercial yeast and wheat. Needless to say, there will be no altus left from this loaf.
This stuff is addictive. It's like an explosion going off in your mouth. Like wine in a bread. Really, really fine wine.
My husband who "doesn't like rye, especially that really dense stuff" keeps going back for one more slice.
This morning I'm saving the rest so we're finally opening up the multigrain bread to have with breakfast. The one I baked 3 loaves of, our usual favorite.
This will be baked many, many more times in my RV and soon, in my house. In fact, I'll be sending one across the country to my friend in TX who says he can't find good bread anywhere but when he visits Denmark.
I'm sure my parents and brother will be pestering me for this bread on a weekly basis as well.
Good think I just ordered more rye from flourgirl51!
Tracy!! "When the SD police come a'knockin"
"When the SD police come a'knockin" - Easter Sunday morning.
Tracy! You were so right! They (the SD police) showed up before I could even stir my morning coffee! They didn't even bother to look at my passport, they went straight for the starter, "Are you she who calls herself, Oven?"
I had to show them an active lively starter and I proudly showed them my cold little dish with a tablespoon in the bottom that just laid there, all that I had. They sniffed around at it and glared at me over special microscopic spectacles. (All I could think was do those things come with night vision too?) They were not impressed. But the second official commented that the dish was clean.
They donned latex gloves demanding to see my knives, spraying each with a fine solution in a pump sprayer looking for what, gummy crumb? They said it would turn purple if the crumb had not gelled properly. I was glad my instant yeast was resting quietly in a unlabeled peanut can. That was close! Had they seen it they might have been joined by the local DIY guys. Sheesh! They asked all kinds of questions.
They sprayed my cutting board. Nothing. One knife turned up purple and I had to show a scored loaf. They took impressions of the knife and my last slice of bread to make a comparison analysis, ...they said. They had the glint of hungry wolves in their eyes. When I pulled last night's rye loaf out of a bag (bagged at aprox. 4am mind you) they gasped at the aroma hitting their faces. (I did too. Oh my God! I'm not kidding!) They both stepped forwards. Oops, I was in trouble now. They insisted on half the loaf. I told them it was Easter and they could come back on Tuesday. That didn't sit well.
My husband must have caught the aroma as well and decided to chase them out right then and there. "Enough, out of here! (whoa!) Comeback when you have a true violation!" They tucked tail and left and we made coffee and our holiday breakfast.
Breakfast was perfect and his omeletts were extra special! The bread, oh my, this is the loaf. It was also perfect! "Honey, this is just like home, just like it!" He stated cutting us both thick slices. I'm thinking what a wonderful day this is going to be... and... I gotta get a crumb shot.
He leaned toward me and gave me an Easter kiss, so sweet, "Who is Elvis?"
And I just can't help tweaking...
Something else I've been doing -- started when I prepared too little sd starter-- ended up with more natural sweetness and intensity by using only 100g rye starter instead of 150g and trying to speed up the process. (Well not like added yeast does.)
The rest of the water and flour, 25g each, gets added to a warm wet starter step so the total flour and water stays the same. All the water is warmed to about 40°C (104°F) and all the water is stirred with the starter & spices (altus) and about 200g flour (if substituting wheat or spelt add now up to 200g, the rest rye. This guarantees wet time for the wheat or spelt. (The clock startes ticking when any rye is added.)
It should be soup like and covered, allowed to sit, whisking occasionally, sit for one and a half hours cooling down to room temp of 24°C. Then add the rest of the rye and mix well. A thirty minute pause for the rye flour to soak up moisture before adding the salt and continue. Shape gently in 1 1/2 to 2 hours and place in a form. If wheat is added the dough it will have some surface tension when shaping letting you feel like you're actually working on real bread. Let rise, dock or slash and bake. The total fermenting time (mix to oven) is still under 8 hours. And this has just a little bit more rich rye flavor than adding 150g starter right off.
Mini
The Next tweak! A Revelation!
I dedicate this next tweak to Christina, for whom this would not be possible.
So I tested it, Christina, I gave my starter old bread to feed it, it wasn't pure but it did open my eyes! Oh, Mein Gott! Das ist das! That is "that" hard to pinpoint flavor, fermented sd bread! I bless you! Bless your children and your children's children, Forever!
Here's how it happened... all I wanted was rye on steroids!
I forgot to refresh my starter so I had about 60g cold very mature rye starter. It was rather late already but I just refreshed 20g with 80g water and 80g rye flour, my normal routine for 170g starter and then got to cutting up some altus. Then I got to thinking about what Christina posted here. The Chemical reaction is mentioned in the links there.
At 10am, I removed a tablespoon of the refreshed starter and put it to the side. I added the rest of the mature refrigerated starter, warm (40°C) water to make about 400g and fed the starter my two old bread slices (or end of the last loaf) that I had just crumbed in the blender. Stirred up soup with the spices and covered it.
The plan is to ferment and use in 4 hrs. and bake between 8 and 10pm. Using my favorite ratio with flour 50% each Rye and 12% protein Bread flour. Then I put my dough together at 2:30 pm 4.5 hours later. Room temp 23°C.
4:00 The salt was added and lightly kneaded into the dough. Working with wet hands.
6:00 pm and all is well. This will be a keeper. No added yeast! Folded and rested, wet surface, dough fermenting quickly.
7:30 Noticing a slight leveling or flat top to the rising dough so it was high time to bake. Noticing bubbles trying to push up to the surface on the sides. I popped large ones and smoothed out the surface, rubbed a little water onto the surface.
7:45 pm into the oven. Did a palm leaf slash. Almost doubled in size to block out the darn oven light (my Korean standard of maximum height.) Amazing the oven spring!
9pm put onto rack to cool. Total 11 hours including refreshing starter and 5.25 hr ferment after mixing the dough and the baking. The loaf was put inside a plastic bag around 4 am to prevent drying out and move moisture to the crumb, I just happened to get up.
Now it is Easter Morning and the bread is fantastic! Oh my! The flavor I've been tweaking for is there! The soft moist, firm crumb, the color, the taste! This is an Easter I will not forget! There are no longer doubts... The American can bake like an Austrian! Wow! I feel like I graduated or something. All you really have to do is mix the altus with the starter when refreshing, and let it ferment. That would do it.
Mini O Smiles!
I'd love to try it.
Mini:
Is the altus something in addition to a regular feeding? Or does it replace the flour that's used to feed the starter? Thanks.
Yippee
That would be the next experiment
I added altus to the regular feeding, what would be the overnight ferment. My fear is that if I give it only altus, the acid levels might get so high I would have to add yeast to raise the loaf. High acid slows yeast production. Adding flour lowers acid.
I've already thought up an experiment to test this. Christina is also feeding a starter with just altus. Lets see what she does with it. Meanwhile try both. Mix up two starters one with added flour one without and see how they look the next morning. Use the one that looks good to you. Although I must say that after this Easter loaf I'd use them both no matter what they looked like. Up for two small loaves or two big ones?
I like the yeast balance that I have in my refrigerated firm starter. If the acid were to increase (like its protective levels when I leave it for months at a time) the yeast may reduce their number too low. It takes me a few days with sitting out time and fresh food twice a day to get the yeast levels back to high concentration. So I hesitate to feed it altus.
Interesting is that the Detmold process starts out like a normal 100% hydration starter, then gets thickened to firm (60%) and then thinned, with different temps (or speeds of fermentation.) I think feeding a little firm starter to 100% hydration and adding the altus with maybe some water to balance it (like one would do if using in the dough) and an overnight fermentation would achieve many of the same goals yet maintain a high level of yeasts to raise the dough.
I would love to now incorporate this into my 100% rye or a pumpernickel. I only need the flour and the berries. I'm down to 600g rye flour. Now I work at just keeping my starter going until I get more flour.
Mini
Nova, Easter Rye Loaf questions
Nova askes:
Please read the last entry "That would be the next experiment" about how I feel about my firm starter without using the altus.
What I did with the starter was a 1:4:4 (or 2:8:8) ratio of feeding the starter but I didn't want to wait the 8 hours or longer for it to mature. (I removed 20g to continue with my starter letting it mature before feeding.) That left me with a diluted starter of 80g water & 80g flour so I added the 40g mature starter which made it closer to a 1:2:2 ratio starter (reducing the fermenting time.) Then I stirred in warm water from the ratio to thin it and speed it up in two ways; heat and hydration (further reducing fermenting time.) Then I added the altus crumbs (cubed and hacked in a blender) to boost it even more and hoping for added flavor as the bread get caughts up into the fermentation!
I'm sure it was ready before 4 hours but I couldn't get to it until 4.5 hours later to even look at it. Not a big problem if I was gone another hour or two because I was still dealing with the starter, not the main dough.
The dough used the 1:3.5:4.16 ratio. The water had been previously weighed (using some of it with the starter) so I simply added the rest before adding the mixture of flour. Working with wet hands, I made up for any hydration corrections I thought the dough needed.
Mini
rye/spelt
Just mixed up a loaf with 2/3 rye, 1/3 spelt. Was meant to be all rye but ran out of rye flour. We'll see. I'm hoping to bake at about 5 hours. We're at about 78 degrees in the camper right now so hopefully that will work out. I put it directly into the pullman pan to see if it really will work without having to be transferred/shaped.
Results to follow!
rye/spelt
Sounds like a good mixture. That will fluff up the rye! If the rising dome starts to just hint at flattening, bake it before the 5 hours.
Mini
Went overnight-
The spelt worked. It wasn't ready at 5 hours so I left it overnight. I woke up at 3:30 this morning to pop it in the oven. It went a full 10 hours! It didn't self destruct! The spelt makes for a slightly less sour, milder loaf. Still fantastic but not quite as strong in taste as the pure rye. Probably would be preferred by someone who wants a milder bread but still wants the experience of a sour, dense rye.
I used a little bit of dried onions, 2 tsp fennel and 2 tsp of caraway for my spices. Yummy!!
Tracy, was salt in the starter and mixed
right away into the dough? Crumb shot? Glad you extended the rise!
I once threw in the rye crutons I had made (desperate for old bread) they also had bits of fried onion in them and a bit of olive oil, was also a good loaf.
Found 220g of spelt and we all know what that means.
April 20, 2010
I've been trying to bake off the last of my flour, cleaning out the cupboards, trying not to think of the volcanic ash that may influence my journey.
I found 220g of spelt flour! I was very curious how different the spelt is to the bread flour after Doc Tracy's 10 hour ferment. Spelt can give a dough a good deal of stretch and fluff so here's a comparison opportunity! I'm not into baking overproofed bricks to test the limits, but I will see how long they hold up against each other. I have to stager the loaves to bake them. The spelt is 30 minutes ahead of the wheat in mixing.
Easy enough.
Must be my starters and the warm water, they fermented rather quickly and caught me by surprise at the 4 hour mark. I shaped the dough and it was incredibly wet, and would not cooperate well. I let it rise more and put the wheat loaf into the oven before the spelt. The spelt rose higher and seemed to be in better shape when it went into the oven. The spelt had the longer fermenting time of 1.5 hours.
Mini
Volkornbrot?
Any thoughts of using this information to make volkornbrot? I have 150 gms rye chops, 100 grams flax seed soaking with 150 grams water/1tbsp salt. I built a 100% starter with rye meal instead of flour last night, pinch of salt. (about 150 gms)
I'd like to to use what I have to bake a volkornbrot. How should I use this formula?
Thanks Mini! Everyone who tastes this rye bread says it's the best they've ever tasted. Even non-rye lovers are converted. It's my daily bread now and we're going through over a loaf a week.
Because of you I was forced to buy a nutrimill. Thanks a lot!!:)
I think you will do fine, Tracy
hold back on some of the water for the recipe because I don't know what those jelly coated flax seeds will do other than slide all over the bowl! I might put the soakers and starter together and then add the flour (150g less) slowly adding water. Leave the dough a little stiff because it loosens up. Fold it in an hour and see if you need more water. You know what the dough feels like. Are you thinking of adding any other seeds or nuts?
Mini
If you credit me for the mill, use it outside, stay upwind and don't breathe in any of the dust. Fine flour dust is something I don't like around and you shouldn't breath it either! Oh and stay away from open flames with it. :)
I'll give it a whirl!
I'll give it a whirl! Starter is raring to go but I'm trying to time it so that it's fermenting for the cool of the night. No other fruits or nuts this time although I'm hoping to try some orange zest if I can dig up an old tangelo out of the fridge. I have these hybrid lemons that look/smell just like oranges and if there are any still left on the tree could zest one of them instead. Otherwise, just the spices I usually use. Have a regular starter building too so I'll have a plain-Jane bread to compare. Although now you got me thinking about all the nuts, fruits and seeds I can add! I'm grinding outside for now. Can you imagine grinding in the RV? I'll try to stay away from open flames. Haven't had the best of luck with fire lately,lol! Did I mention vie tried to burn the rv down about 5 times so far? Once when I pre-heated the oven with "Bread" on the vent. Now "Bread" has scorch marks! I'll try not to breathe the flour either since I have asthma. My lungs wouldn't like that either. My nose dod like the smell of freshly ground whole wheat and rye flour though. I'll let you know how baking goes if I have time before work in the AM. Thanks for your fantastic advice!
Volkornbrot?
Mini-check out my blog. It worked great!
I would like to report a happy altus fed rye starter
I fed my rye starter 100% altus and it was forgotten in the refrigerator for about 3-4 weeks. The starter had turned liquid and had not so pretty scum on top if it. I poured it off and took a good clean scoop off the bottom of the jar. Put that heaping teaspoon of glop into a measuring cup, added about 60g of water and rye flour to make a sloppy wet paste. I figured I was into a feeding project for a few days to get the yeasts up in number. This morning I was surprised to find it bubbling away and wanting to go into bread! So a loaf is in the works.
Mini in Austria