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Mini's Favorite 100% Rye Ratio

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Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Mini's Favorite 100% Rye Ratio


I've been playing with rye loaf ratios (starter/water/flour) and I came up with one using any amount of rye starter that when refreshed is a paste (100% hydration) and as it ferments loostens to a thick batter.  I was looking for basic numbers (like 1/2/3) and I found them they're  1/ 3.5/ 4.16.   It makes Rye so much easier!  The starter should be generously refreshed 8-12 hours before and mixed into the dough just before peaking and in a 22°c room (72°F) the dough ferments 7-8 hours before baking.   Dough should not be folded or shaped 4 hours before going into the oven.


Basic Ratio> 1 part starter: 3.5 parts cold water: 4.16 parts rye flour    


4 tablespoons bread spice for 500g flour    Salt 1.8 to 2% of flour weight


Hydration of dough aprox 84%.  Handle dough with wet hands and a wet spatula.  Combine starter and water then the flour, stir well and let rest covered.  Add salt about one hour after mixing and any other ingredients.  If room is warmer add salt earlier.  Three hours into the ferment lightly fold with wet hands and shape into a smooth ball.  Place into a well floured brotform or oiled baking pan.  Cover and let rise.  Don't let it quite Double for it will if conditions are right.  Before placing in the oven, use a wet toothpick and dock the loaf all over to release any large bubbles.  Bake in covered dark dish in cold oven Convection 200°C or 390°F (oven can reach 220°C easy with the fan on.)  Remove cover after 20 to 25 minutes and rotate loaf.  Reduce heat by simply turning off convection and use top & bottom heat at 200°C.   Remove when dough center reaches 93°C or 200° F.


All kinds of combinations are possible including addition of soaked & drained seeds and or cooked berries or moist altus and whole or cracked walnuts or a little spoon of honey.


How it works:  I have 150g rye starter at 100% hydration.  I figure for water: 150 x 3.5 gives the water amount or 525g.  I figure the flour: 150 x 4.16 gives 624 g Rye flour.  For salt:  2% of 700g (624g + aprox. 75g in the starter) makes salt 14g or one level tablespoon of table salt.


This amount of dough took 1 1/2 hours to bake and included moist rye altus.  It was baked in two non-stick cast aluminum sauce pans (20cm diameter) one inverted over the other .  The rounder of the two on the bottom.  No steam other than what was trapped inside.  Top removed after 25 minutes.  It has a beautiful dark crust with a light shine.  Aroma is heavenly.



 

Comments

la vecchia saggia's picture
la vecchia saggia

Hi Mini,


I´m Linda, Nico´s friend, and I´m going to do for the second time this wonderful bread.


Which is your advice for altus in this bread? I´ve some in the freezer.


Is it possible in your opinion to work?


And, if I put altus, I´ve to put less flower and water then, to have the same final weight? And in which step I´ve to do this? In the very beginning?


Excuse me for the language. I´ll use few words and I hope to understand your replies.


Linda

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Here is a link to a post on using Altus


http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/13369/altus-amp-formula#comment-81363


I do not figure it into the dough formula for home baking.  Weigh the normal frozen bread and use up to 33% of the total weight of the dough.  So if you add up all the ingedients and it comes to say 1kg, don't use more than 333g of altus in the recipe.  I use less.


The altus can be added in a number of ways:



  • it can be soaked in the recipe water to soften and put in a mixer.   Then the starter and flour is added by hand.

  • or it can be crumbled in the mixer dry.  Then mixed into the dough.  I prefer this method.  I can add little amounts of water if the crumbs seem dry.  I pack the dry crumbs into a ball to see how well they stay together,  they should be wet enough to just hold together but not soggy.

  • if the altus is dry, it must be soaked and after some time, the old bread is then squeezed to press out the water.  That water can be measured and used in the recipe. 



And, if I put altus, I´ve to put less flower and water then, to have the same final weight?



You can do that, but reduce the sourdough starter too.  I suggest to start out with a smaller amount of starter for the formula for a small form.  Think of adding altus like adding nuts or raisins.  Altus from rye bread is preferred.


Mini

la vecchia saggia's picture
la vecchia saggia

Ciao Mini ;-),


thanks a lot for the info. Sorry for my mistakes.


Of course we are talking about 100% rye bread and rye flour


Linda


 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Ciao Linda!


I've put rye altus (maximum wheat 50%) in plain white bread (100%) as well.  It just comes out with lots of little spots of rye, freckled.   I usually taste the rye altus first, sometimes it doesn't make it into the loaf.  I eat it instead.  Good altus makes more good bread if it gets that far.  :)


Mini

KipperCat's picture
KipperCat

Mini, this looks scrumptious!  It's the first non gluten-free food to tempt me in a long time.


I dropped in to make a quick post in the gf section, and had to read about that gorgeus loaf!

la vecchia saggia's picture
la vecchia saggia

Hi Mini, this was the first one, of about 1.300 gr.


first Mini white rye flour with seeds


                                 


Today I´m going to do the secon one, with altus, but seems not so good looking as the first


Linda

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

I saw your loaf on the Italian site.  Impressive!  Thank you so much for posting it here!


I hope I'm not too late to suggest you give the second loaf some extra time in the oven with the altus to make sure it bakes completely.  These loaves tend to be so moist they are hard to overbake!  ... but easy to underbake.


It might be fun to venture over the Alps and drop in on you all!


Mini, S Korea

la vecchia saggia's picture
la vecchia saggia

Hi Mini, it´so nice to talk with someone over the Alps.


If you´ll come in Rome, you can call me and we can have a "pizza" together ;-)


only eating maybe, speaking ... a little bit less ;-)


As I told you, this is my second test of your bread.


I put 150 gr of altus (a left over rye frisian bread, but I didn´t like the texture of that bread).. in 840 gr of the last dough 


Maybe I could put the altus together with the salt, after 1 hour, but I forgot and I put immediatly with the last starter, rye and water.


Like the first one, I followed 3 phases of work (3 poolish)


these are the "seeds" of the frisian rye bread


It´s not so high, isnt´it?


I used these flours, half&half


I´ll show you the slice tomorrow night;-) - Bye


Linda


p.s. - here the slices.


Maybe due to the fact that was stuck into the pot, so that I didn´t get out for the final cooking, this time the bread is too wet ...


or... you were right Mini: a longer cooking was needed


 


...but wonderful, as usual

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Too bad the bottom stuck.  I have had that happen too.  Glass is good for it.  Try a little butter.  Many times it sticks when it is not done baking.  You can't have beginner's luck all the time! :)   The crumb looks good!


You'd be surprised how well I can communicate without knowing a language.  Anyway I know the next loaf on the way to the oven.   Beautiful tablecloth!  


Try a smaller pot for a higher loaf  Or  increase the amount of dough for that pot.


Mini

la vecchia saggia's picture
la vecchia saggia

thanks for the advices, I´ll do in the way you suggest.


The tablecloth is actually a dish for cakes from Liguria-Le-Cinque-Terre (beautiful land)


Bye..


Linda

Yippee's picture
Yippee

Hi, Mini:



Don't let it quite Double for it will if conditions are right.


 



If not doubled, then how do we judge when the time is right to bake?  What are the visual guidelines?


 


What are the factors contributing to the beautiful glossy appearance of your loaf? Is it the steam, oven temperature, shaping technique, or something else?  Please advise. Thank you.


Yippee

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Because Rye is Rye, it just can't stretch that far and hold itself up.   Let it double in the oven with the oven spring so the oven heat can set it. 


Visual indicators or guidelines as to when the loaf is oven ready... other than volume... that loaf being 100% Rye using only a rye sourdough starter, no added yeast:


Knowing your starter, knowing how high you can actually let it rise before it falls.  Paying attention to your dough & room temp.  If you're thinking "Wheat" then the rise of rye will be faster and surprise you.  Don't compare rye to wheat.  Work with rye on its own terms.   Being able to estimate correctly when it will be ready is half the work in observing when the dough will be ready to bake.


The form has a lot to do with how long you can let it rise also.  The narrower the form, the closer the outside walls are together, the more the form supports the rise.  Then one might actually shoot for "double."  Gosh be careful!  Once it falls, there is no way it will get up again.   Then it will have to be treated as a build and blended with fresh flour (salt & water) to get it to rise again.


The dough is getting close to overproofing when any small & medium size (tiny to green pea size) gas bubbles work their way to the surface, and indicator that the dough structure is breaking down and instead of trapping gas, releasing it.  (or the hydration is too high)  Some may even start to pop on the surface leaving little craters.   If you smooth the wet surface of the dough after shaping and as it ferments starts to get bumpy, that might indicate maximum rise.


I pushed a loaf one time to what I thought was the "brink".  I had docked the risen dough and moistened the surface lightly with water.  In the oven, the dough had just started to rise but I could see bubbles boiling out of the wet docking holes.  Reminded me of Yellowstone paint pots.  All that gas, gas to raise my loaf, was escaping!  I was worried.  I had not seen that before.  By the time it cooled, the loaf did not rise any higher than when it went into the oven.   Thank goodness it didn't sink.  One should not get that close to testing maximum rise.   It was a loaf I had retarded and was not sure how far it was along in the fermentation.  I had underestimated it.  


I believe the surface shine is caused by moisture condensing on the dough surface.  Steam is either trapped in the cover or lid to the pot or plenty of steam is in the oven.   Sometimes I spray a little water on my dough before it goes into the oven.  I also cover the dough with a lightly oiled thin shower cap, the cheap thin variety, while fermenting.  There might be a trace of olive oil on the surface.


Mini

Yippee's picture
Yippee

for enlightening me on the 'mysterious' rye !


Yippee

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

It's snowing!  ...and there really is nothing for me to do except... well it doesn't help that I have a chunk of rye bread in my hand.   What are you up to?


Mini

Yippee's picture
Yippee

I've been admiring your cake-like rye loaf and wondering why my 90% rye turned out like a biscotti. Been also comparing rye roux with gelatinized rye in Lepard's 100% rye formula and testing your cool-oven technique with one of the loaves.  Another one is continuing with retard in the fridge. 


Did it ever occur to you that a retarded rye dough (with 2% salt, already slowly fermenting at 76F for 3 hours before I had to put it away) shows no sign of activity even hours after it's taken out of the fridge?   I'm also building a firm rye starter and trying to get to know it before utilizing it in my next rye mix.


Yippee

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Yippee, we are on to something...


"Did it ever occur to you that a retarded rye dough shows no sign of activity even hours after it's taken out of the fridge?"


I don't like to retard high % rye in the fridge for that very reason.  I'm glad you brought it up.   I tend not to retard if I don't have to.  I have slowed it down in a cooler room (10°C-15°C) but that is not as cold as my refrigerator (4°C).  Maybe putting it into the fridge firms up the structure to the point of no stretch (more so than wheat) and so all the action is compacted under the surface.  The last time I retarded a loaf (and it was in the fridge) I had underestimated the fermentation.  Thinking about it now, doing it again, I would not let the cold dough warm up or re-shape (shape before retarding) and simply spray with some warm water and place my warm hands on the top surface to warm the top up a little and then into the oven, covered might be better.   I don't know if I would dock it.  I would judge that when I gently rest my hands on it. 


What did you do with your loaf, Yippee?  Sorry we're in different time zones.


For comparisons... I have never had a rye starter "go over" or expand much in the fridge, but it has on the counter.  That didn't mean it wasn't active, it just didn't rise when very cold.  Break the cold stiff surface and the inside bubble structure is evident.  As a starter it doesn't matter but as a dough, as a dough, maybe there should be some lower temp limits as to retarding, warmer temps than wheat.  Gives something to think about when using wheat/rye combinations doesn't it?   A 70% rye would retard differently than a 40%rye.



Mini

Yippee's picture
Yippee

 



What did you do with your loaf, Yippee? 



 


Seeing no signs of activity after leaving it out at 76F for 6 hours, I decided to give it up and use it as a guinea pig for testing your cool-oven technique.  I left it out for another 7 hours at the same temperature when I was sleeping.  Nothing happened.  It only rose about 1/3 in size before I retarded it so it's absolutely not ready for baking.  I put it in a Japanese made Shabu-Shabu clay pot and set the oven to 410F and checked it after 45 minutes.  The internal temperature of the dough was only 125F.  I removed the lid and stuck the probe of my talking thermometer in the dough and set the receiver at 205F.  I forgot how long it took to reach that temperature, probably another 20-30 minutes. 


 


Measuring the doneness by internal temperature provides more assurance to me and I felt more comfortable than just by looking at the clock.  However, I'm wondering how to adjust this method for dough with various weights.  Lepard's final dough is about ½ the size of yours and the formula calls for only 50 minutes of baking at 410F.  Would the extended bake dry out the dough excessively?  Would lowering the temperature after the lid is removed compensate for moisture loss?  What do you think?


 


One interesting thing I noticed during this extended cool-bake test, I smelled a very sweet aroma which I did not experience when making the 90% rye.  Is that the heavenly aroma you're talking about in your write-up?


 


For the remaining retarded dough, I don't have any high hopes for it after reading your comments about retarding high % rye.  I warmed it up back to room temperature more quickly today by setting my proofer at 100F.    I'll observe if it revives.  If not, no biggie. I'll make sure the dough is salt free and leave it in a warmer spot if I plan to retard in the future.   


Yippee

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

that is the problem. 



I'll make sure the dough is salt free and leave it in a warmer spot if I plan to retard in the future.   



Leaving out the salt when the sourdough in mixed in would speed up fermentation and not in any way retard the dough.  


I was looking for rye temperature information and it is interesting that rye's ideal rising/stretching final proof temperature is higher than wheat by a few degrees C.  So it might make sense that cooling temps should also be warmer than wheat.  What I don't understand is the rye dough loosing its stretch, its ability to return to being elastic when it is warmed up again.


I'm working on an experiment.  It involves using a refreshed starter and small amounts of dough letting it (1)rise and mature on the counter top (23°C)  (2 & 3) in the refrigerator  and warming up to room temp.   Also investigating (4 & 5) cool room temp.  And then a second experiment mixed (70% and 50%) rye/wheat flour to see if it reflects any wheat influence in retarding.  I'm waiting on a room thermometer and refining my details so I can get sleep during the experiments. 


Mini

Yippee's picture
Yippee

My thought was that once the retarded dough is out of the fridge, it will be easier to pick up the speed to return to the normal state if salt is not present. 


I made your bread today.  Waiting to cut them up.  Should I wait one or two days?  Thanks.


Yippee


 


 


 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

"This loaf will self distruct in maximum 8 hours!" 


I have rediscovered that there exists a natural time limit when mixing up a 100% rye dough:  Do not let the dough ferment beyond 8 hours from the time you start mixing up your final dough to the time it goes into the oven!  Once mixed up, it's an enzyme time bomb!   Now doesn't that make baking more exciting?


Enzymes break down the rye sourdough starter too, but the goal is to produce yeast and flavor and acid, not to raise the dough.   Letting a starter ripen beyond 8 hours is not a big concern but to raise a dough, it is good to know that the enzymes activated in the dough will not let the dough be workable beyond 8 hours, less hours when a large portion of ripe starter is used or the temperature rises.   There are many ways time is shortened but to lengthen working time calls for magic.   I don't mess in magic. :)


It is good to know that if I wait 8 hours and no rise has occured, it will not.  (So if you find yourself waiting up, tired and need your sleep,  chuck it into the refrigerator and dream instead.  Deal with it later.)   Retarding the dough only slows down yeasts and bacteria, not the enzymes.   The only solution to make the dough then rise after 8 hours, is to add more flour (suggestion of bread flour) water, salt and a good dose of instant yeast, using the exausted dough as a starter for a mixed rye/wheat bread.  Then work at feeding the starter healthy so it can raise the next loaf. 


So the general idea is to get the shaped dough almost risen at temperatures of 24° to 33°C (75° to 91°F) and baked before the delicate structure breaks down turning our lovely dough into bricks.


Mini

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

I mixed up a 50% rye with wheat flour sourdough today.  Rather curious if it would fall apart at 8 hours too.  I'm guessing it wouldn't but who knows?  So I mixed it up 170g starter, 600g water and used wheat bread flour at 12%, some AP at 9%, a few heaping soup spoons of spelt and even a cup of chopped roasted walnuts. 


At the one hour mark I kneaded in enough AP with the salt and walnuts to make a nice medium dough working in quite a bit of flour.  I let it ferment for 3 hours and kept thinking about the rye.  I reshaped with wet hands and let it rise in the form for another 3 hrs debating with myself whether or not to bake it when 8 hours are up.  The dough did rise some but not as much as I had expected considering the temp. and allotted time.  The dough seemed rather firm, I might have given it a few hours more to rise but I wanted to see what would happen if I let the clock be my guide instead of feel as far as a 50% rye goes.   I preheated the oven. The dough showed no signs of escaping bubbles but had run sideways to fill the form and was slightly domed.  I popped a pea size bubble near to the surface and pushed a walnut back under the dough. 


Eight hours rolled around and I lightly scored two cresent cuts )) into the top and steamed no cover at 230°C for 10 minutes.  Rotated the pan 1/4 and turned it down to 210°C  (funny, the lazer gun thermometer- instant read  >borrowed from work<  says the walls of my Korean oven are 180°C.)  The scoring first closed up but then tore open very dramatically after around 20 minutes into the bake.  This loaf had doubled its size from the time it went into the oven!  At first I was not worried about it hitting the top of the oven.  Half way through the bake I covered the top of the loaf with foil and removed the lower trivit.  Wow!


I have not yet had a half rye/wheat rise this high in my 24cm pan!  So the real discovery is... Getting the dough into the oven before the rye breaks down does make a difference!


(at least at 50% rye and above)  Too hot to cut at the moment...



 

nicodvb's picture
nicodvb

and great principles. Not letting the surface begin to pierce. I'll remember it.
Thanks Mini!

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

50% rye with wheat and roasted crushed walnuts under 8 hours.



 

Doc Tracy's picture
Doc Tracy

How do you calculate the amount of dough for the container size? Your dough looks like it fit perfectly in your pot. I assume if it was too big it would end up dense, too small and it wouldn't meet the edges and top, become flattened from not being supported.


So, how to calculate the right amount of dough for the container? I'm going to be using a small pullman pan, 9X4X4. Any ideas about how to calculate this? There is a recipe for a white sandwich bread for this pan on the king arthur website, I can hop over there and see how much the dough weighs if that helps at all.


Thanks!


Doc Tracy

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

with a heavier type loaf, like a pumpernickel.   A white sandwich loaf is not only a different flour, it has a totally different texture and crumb.


Let me see, was it txfarmer that was working with pan sizes?  Yes, http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/14315/horst-bandel%E2%80%99s-black-pumpernickel-finally


My loaf did rise into the upper pot by about 1 1/2inches or more!  Because the air leaks out by the side crust faster than the dough can trap it, it doesn't create a problem.


I find 150g starter works well in a 20cm round pan, 170g starter in a 22cm round pan, 190g in a 24cm round pan and so on.  Looks like for every 10g more starter a 1cm can be added to the diameter of the pan.  I should try this theory out with a 4 kg loaf!  :)


Mini

Doc Tracy's picture
Doc Tracy

Man, I feel a calculus problem coming on. What is the volume of a round pot vs a rectangular pan? Then, how much dough by weight can each hold after they have risen to full height? Consider that the round pot has a lid that is elevated by 1 1/2" above the pot and the pullman pan has a flat lid at the top of the pan. This could be complicated!


Who was it out there that wanted a problem including Pi? Come on now, we need all the mathemeticians to get in on this. I've got a good one for you! I had calculus oh, about 30 years ago and I dumped that storage compartment years ago. Didn't seem to need that part of my brain for doctoring or medical school.


Thanks for the link, I will check that out! Txfarmer always has good stuff!

nicodvb's picture
nicodvb

The pot could not be perfectly cylindrical, better leave maths alone if you don't want to solve an integral ;)


You had better weigh how much water the pot can contain and assume the volume is the same, expressed in liters (it's not exactly the same but  it's a good approximation). I mean that 1KG of water accounts for 1 liter.


 

Doc Tracy's picture
Doc Tracy

Great idea for an estimate. Water weight for liters for an approximation. I should be getting my pullman pan from KA today or tomorrow. I'll give the water test a try and see how it works. Can't wait to try Mini's Magic Rye!!

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

volume with CO2 bubbles, it takes up more room than what 1kg of water would.  So one would not fill the pan full.  A little over half unrisen, maybe 3/4 after shaping and 1/2 inch under the edge when it goes into the oven.  Calculate for half the pan. 


Mini

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

The figures sound about right.  Without the altus my loaf with the 150g starter runs between 50 and 60 minutes.   I prefer a probe thermometer too.  I've gotten hollow sounds on unfinished loaves.  A tall round loaf requires more time than a batard.



Would the extended bake dry out the dough excessively?  



     No, The crust seems to form a protective shell around the whole loaf and I haven't dried one out yet.  There is just too much moisture in there to begin with.



Would lowering the temperature after the lid is removed compensate for moisture loss? 



     Never thought about it.  Steam actually comes off the loaf when the lid is removed so stay clear of the steam.  I lower the temp so the fan is not blowing on my exposed loaf and it doesn't brown too fast.  I open the door to let out the moisture.  Moisture loss?



For the remaining retarded dough, I don't have any high hopes for it after reading your comments about retarding high % rye.



it is now officially a starter or build (with a few extra ingredients) so why not add some water & bread flour (flour the weight of the starter) give it some salt and shape it.  Watch it grow in your oiled pan at room temp.  It might only take a few hours before it is short of doubling and then bake it.  It will be sour.


If you retard this rye recipe in the future, avoid the refrigerator.  Don't forget some salt, the problem here seems to be the enzyme activity continues dispite the cold, so eliminating the salt would not be good, it might not help.  I think what the extreme cold does to the rye is to stop the delicate stretching structure.


Could very well be that my ratio recipe does not lend itself to refrigerator retarding, and a recipe using more steps or builds with a shorter final proof would be better for your schedule.


Mini

Doc Tracy's picture
Doc Tracy

Is there anyway to do this bread overnight? I'd really like to work it into an overnight schedule. This week is crazy and I can't get a 10 hour block of time to do it but I really have my hopes up to bake this bread for my weekly bread.


Maybe it could bulk proof overnight, shape and go in the oven after 45 minutes or so? I'm willing to get up a little early if needed, no problem. It's the shaping at 3 hours I can't work out.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

At first I thought, no.  Then maybe if you set an alarm clock.  Straight thru huh?  You could forget about shaping and try just docking before going into the oven.    Mix the loaf, shape it and let it rise for 7hrs. & no touching.  Rye not?  In the airconditioning...


Try it and see.


 

Yippee's picture
Yippee

Mini:


In your formula, the starter used is at 100% hydration and your magic ratio is 1s : 3.5w : 4.16f.  I did a simple calculation; the prefermented flour in your final dough is about 11%. What is the importance of using a starter at 100% hydration? Can a starter with a hydration other than 100% be used if adjustments are made to ensure the prefermented flour in the final dough remains at 11%?  Would it negatively impact the outcome? Please advise.  Thank you.


Yippee

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

is not the concern.  The amount of yeast in the prefermented dough is the concern.  As long as the starter is strong and full of yeast.  I found the recipe improved as soon as I reduced the % of prefermented dough into the recipe.  I would love it it someone would put my ratio into a baker's formula and put it into this Blog.


I used the same recipe with half the amount of starter, hardly 100g but changed the way I put it together.  The starter was sour, strong and very active, it had also sat retarded in the refrigerator a full 24 hours.  The water was warm and I added 100g rye flour and some bread flour to make a soup and let it stand 2 hours to give a kick to the fermentation.  Then I added the rest of the flour as bread flour and AP until it was all mixed in.  Then it sat another hour before I kneaded in the salt.  I managed to still get the shaped loaf (with several hourly sets of stretches & folds) with slashes into the oven after 8 hours from the time I started adding water to 100g starter.   (Room temp 24°C.)  Don't ask me the % of rye, this became a wheat loaf flavored with rye.


I don't think a starter with lower hydration would be a problem, but with a higher hydration starter, some water should be removed from the recipe and replaced with starter.  All that calculating is fine if you want to do it.  Those who keep high hydration starters regularly reduce the water in a (100% hydration starter) recipe replacing with more starter, I know I would if I had a wetter starter. 


Mini

Yippee's picture
Yippee


 I would love it it someone would put my ratio into a baker's formula and put it into this Blog.



In appreciation of your generous and unconditional sharing of information, this (plus a few virtual kisses) is the least I can do:



Do you like the colors? If not, let me know your preference.


Yippee

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven


Don't ask me the % of rye, this became a wheat loaf flavored with rye.



Very tasty, rather airy.   Taken at night in the kitchen with a few light "shadows" however the crumb is an even color.


Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

A big virtual kiss and a bigg hugg to boot!  Thank you, Thank you, Thank you!


Mini

Yippee's picture
Yippee

for this very precious first lesson in rye bread!!!  I've got something to show you. Well, just to tease you a little (I simply don't have the time to do it now), may be in the next few days.  I hope I'll make you proud.  Can't thank you enough!


Kissy Kissy!


Yippee

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

I was enjoying the lovely ovens and handling of rye dough in this video. 


First of all, I think this is the filming of a special moment, the official opening of the "new ovens" with lots of people and guests milling around.  After the oven is fired, the dough is mixed.  The dough is weighed and tossed around in a wooden bowl (warning: rather dusty way of doing things, wouldn't be bad outside, flour dust is bad for you...)  then flopped into waiting floured dishtowel lined basket.  Watch carefully to not miss "the poke test."  The baker has a neat set up with the oven (& chimney) keeping everything around the oven so tidy!  A beautiful kitchen!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1ULnT9w3Fo


Mini


 

Doc Tracy's picture
Doc Tracy

Anything special about shaping high percent rye? It seems almost like cake batter. I'm wondering, when you say "don't shape for at least 4 hours before baking" what exactly do you do in terms of shaping? Can you elaborate your rising and proofing phases? Do you do any folding? Do you just plop into your pot? Or, do you actually attempt to shape it? How many hours of rising before you shaped?


My camper is pretty warm now with spring coming on (about 77-80) so I know I'll need to make adjustments unless I do it at night or with the AC on but just want to get a basic idea of this part of your method. I've got my starter building now.


I'm planning to mix up some of the bread spices, although I think I'm missing cumin or coriander seeds. Maybe I can dig some up in the bottom of the spice box. Maybe I'll use some dried onion or lemon zest instead. Sure wish my husband hadn't eaten every last crumb of my last loaf of rye so that I could have some altus to use! Have you tried using any seeds in this yet? Like flax or millet?


Tracy

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven


Anything special about shaping high percent rye?



Don't do too much.  Shaping is more like pushing the sides under, once or twice, trying not to trap any air into the dough.  I tend to shape more when the dough is loaded with nuts trying to keep them inside and create a smooth surface without too much stretching.



It seems almost like cake batter.



To me it feels more like meat loaf or a big ball of hamburger (minced) meat that won't keep its shape.  If you rest it in your hand too long, it also wants to sag between your fingers.



I'm wondering, when you say "don't shape for at least 4 hours before baking" what exactly do you do in terms of shaping?



Make it round, smooth and wet on the surface (seeds really stick well) add any decoration and just cuddle it and tell it how it will be so appreciated and that it will rise to better heights. :) 


If you want a jagged surface or want to experiment with spreading it out and folding accordion style to tuck into the form, now is the time, if you can -- in the first half of the ferment.   If 8 hrs being total ferment time at 24°C dough and room temp. (with fermenting starting the minute the rye flour and water are mixed) then 4 hours would be the middle of the ferment.  After the 4 hour mark or 4 hours before the 8 hour end mark, or halfway thru the total fermenting time, the dough structure becomes too fragile to work and recover while it is rising.  So don't too much other than dock it, spray it or sprinkle on seeds in the last half of the ferment or score it if you want to.  In the latter half of the ferment, the dough can be lifted with parchment under it, not too big a problem.  But you want to be gentle with it. 


Total fermenting time will be influenced by factors such as room temp, dough temp, added sugar or malt, and reduction in salt.  You don't have to push it to 8 hours, don't let the dough "double." Just be aware that after 8 hours the internal supporting structure can fall at any moment.  Careful not to slam any oven doors! leave a window open and pray for magic.  Don't let it rise that long is the best advise.



Can you elaborate your rising and proofing phases? Do you do any folding? Do you just plop into your pot?  Or, do you actually attempt to shape it?




  • Mix up dough in the first hour.   Elaboration: Measure starter into bowl, add water and whisk to break up starter, add spices and small seeds, grated potatoes or soakers (if used) including altus. Note the time.  Add flour stir well, cover and let sit to soak up moisture.  If room has comfortable room temp, add salt (and nuts) at about one hour.  Salt can be sprinkled over the dough and then folding the dough in the bowl or the dough can be spread out on an oiled and moistened surface, sprinkled with salt and then rolled up and kneaded with wet hands.  If dough seems dry, alternately wet hands often and just lightly knead in the air (this seems to happen with coarser flour or when a little wheat bread flour is substituted in the dough) (If dealing with much warmer room temps, stir salt into flour, slowing down this boosting step of salt delay.)



  • Continue ferment for 3 hours in an oiled or slightly wet (pour water in and swish around then dump out) covered (shower cap or lid) bowl.  Do something else for 3 hours.

  • Reshape dough and allow to rise.  This gives a feel for the amount of CO2 forming in the loaf and place into the form for the second and final ferment.  (SourDough 911: If you have not seen any change, however slight, and can feel no gas pockets forming inside the dough, this is your final chance to work in a paste of 3 tsp. instant yeast to save the dough. Did it only one time -- weak starter.)   Elaboration: Prepare your form, oil it or smear it with butter, dust with seeds or rolled grain or grated nuts or nut flour if desired.  Uncover dough, sprinkle about a teaspoon or so water around the rim of the bowl if needed and run a wet silicone spatula around the edge to loosten dough from sides and bottom of bowl.  I work next to the sink with cold water trickling in such a way it doesn't sound like someone, well, peeing.   Wet the left hand and with the right hand tip the dough upside down catching with the wet hand.  Drop the bowl into the sink and quickly wet the right hand.  Catch the dough ready to fall with the right hand and lift it to flop over the dough still resting in the left hand.  The dough is then moved to the right hand, any folds into the palm (top is up) and the left hand is wetted again.  Keeping track of the top, push or slide fingers around the surface any corners or wierd bumps underneath and making the dough round pinching the bottom.  May have to wet right hand.  Drop into the form, smoothen out the surface and cover.  Watch it rise until ready to bake.


Rising or bubble formation actually starts from the moment the starter is added to the water and the flour gets wet.  As you have warmer temps, Tracy, add the salt to the flour and stir in before adding to the water. (If you add the salt to the thinned starter, it may clump the protein and form lumps.) If it really gets hot, up in the 80°'sF, you may want to add 2% salt to your sitting out starter.  This will slow it down so it responds like with winter temps.   Salt also does a cute chemical trick with binding up the proteins so the enzymes have a tougher time breaking down the structure adding more hours to the self distruct mechanism I warn about.  


Mini

Doc Tracy's picture
Doc Tracy

Thank you so much for all the wonderful instruction. I'm ready to bake. I've done two builds on my starter. It's a little firmer than yours but I'll adjust the hydration in the final dough. I did add a touch of salt, as I've been doing lately because my starter has been going crazy in my warm cabinets.


I'm so excited to try this! I'm also baking Hamelman's multigrain rye tomorrow, one of our favorite breads for everyday.  But, I've been wanting to bake your bread ever since you posted it. I bought a pullman pan just for it. (i'll pull back the lid when it's time)


I'll need to do a rye dance tonight before going to sleep. Dance to the rye gods!

Yippee's picture
Yippee

Mini:


Please visit my blog to see the write-up of my attempt of your wonderful bread.  Thank you very much again for your time and instructions.


Yippee

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Anytime!  It's the least I can do.  I had been avoiding the retarding thing for a long time.  Because I didn't understand it.   Thanks for the push!  Oh, and once you bake it, it's your bread!  Congratulations on your bread!  

Zeb's picture
Zeb

I think your 100 % looks magical too! Can't wait to try the ratio out. I will rev up my rye starter in the week. What a great post ! best Zeb

Doc Tracy's picture
Doc Tracy

I mixed it up and it's in the proofing container. I added spices-fennel, caraway and a little cumin (didn't have any coriander). I added one drop of lemon extract. I would have gone to get some zest but I was too lazy to go outside and get it. The extract is pretty strong and I could detect the tiniest hint of citrus. I was afraid to add more.


Also resting-the multigrain rye from "Bread". I made it with whole wheat white. My poor husband resorted to buying a loaf of high fiber bread from the store yesterday. It will probably get composted (he said it tasted like caca). Nice to know that he appreciates my baking enough that he can't stand to go without it! The high fiber used to be his favorite, now it tastes like caca! Ha ha!!


Doing the rye magic dance now!!

Doc Tracy's picture
Doc Tracy

This is awesome. I could never have done this without you. I think the only change I'll make next time is to get the coriander. The cumin is a little strong even though I only put a dash of it in. It's amazing! I wish I could let everyone taste it. It's tangy, sweet, smoky. It almost tastes like molasses. The sourdough tastes shines right through but in a really good way.


Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

I just want to whistle! 


Mini

loafgeek's picture
loafgeek

This *is* a pretty loaf.  Is it 100% rye?  I see that it is a 9x4x4 pullman loaf.  How many grams of wet dough did you put in the pullman?

 

Doc Tracy's picture
Doc Tracy

I just checked the temp on my loaf. Since I'm baking in the Pullman pan it was a nice surprice. Oh my, what a nice surprice. I had gotten another inch of rise, at least, beautiful brown color and what a lovely shiney sheen. Steam just came off when I slid the lid back. And the smell! It's unbelievable! I can't wait. Do I really, really have to wait until morning? I still have about 20 more minutes until it's done. I really can't wait. Why do I have to wait sooo long to taste it?!!

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