The Fresh Loaf

A Community of Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts.

Sponge Vs. Poolish Vs; Biga

Jim Burgin's picture
Jim Burgin

Sponge Vs. Poolish Vs; Biga

Couple of questions:   1) How does the degree of flavor improvement compare with these three starters:  sponge, polish, Biga?

2)  One of my books says you can use a sponge with ANY bread recipe by using  a percent of ingredients (including ALL of the water) and letting them sit to create a pre-ferment (1-4 hours on counter or up to 12 hours is fridge.)  Also putting the remainder of the dry ingredients on the top of the sponge to keep it from drying out.  Rest the whole thing together for the times mentioned above.  

     I am thinking of doing this with Ken Forkish's "The Saturday White Bread."  Ken specifies a 5 hours bulk fermentation.  How should I amend this fermentation time (if at all) when using the sponge pre-ferment above (which has already fermented 4-12 hours)?

thanks for any advice.  Jim Bujrgin 

 

Edo Bread's picture
Edo Bread

Modernist Bread did some experimenting on this. You might enjoy this article: https://modernistbread.com/are-biga-poolish-and-sponge-interchangeable/

Bart Tichelman's picture
Bart Tichelman

Nice article.  It confirms my personal experience -  I always use a 12  - 14 hour poolish (100% hydration) with half the flour needed in the recipe and a literal pinch of commercial yeast.

Jay Keith's picture
Jay Keith

...why use a pre-ferment at all? Why not just make up the final dough and ferment the whole thing for longer? That way, all of the flour will have been subject to enzyme activity, not just part of it.

Jim Burgin's picture
Jim Burgin

Why indeed?!  This exactly what Jim Lahey ("My Bread"  does.  As I expect you know, Lahey is the man who popularized the use of the Cast Iron pot.  I will be interested to see how other respond to your question here j- Why?   Jim

Jay Keith's picture
Jay Keith

It's what I do, too, retarding for two to three days.

I know the name, Jim Lahey, but don't know the book.

Jim Burgin's picture
Jim Burgin

Jay,   You would probably enjoy seeing Jim Lahey bake his bread on YouTube.   Just put in his name. Jim

Jay Keith's picture
Jay Keith

Just realised that I know the name because he's one of the people who occasionally rediscovers how to make bread without kneading the dough.

I'll track him down on YouTube. Thanks for the pointer.

Jim Burgin's picture
Jim Burgin

Jay,  Appreciated your ideas about long term (12-18 hours) bulk fermentation of the entire mix; also you comment that you retard 2-3 days.  I have been baking Jim Lahey's "My Bread" that does ferment 12-18 hours but have not tried retarding 1-3 days.   What has been your experience with this??? Have heard about "over proofing".  How do you tell when a dough is over proofed?  Without baking it to find out if it tastes bad?  Thanks again,  Jim Bujrgin

Jim Burgin's picture
Jim Burgin

Jay, I believe I made a mistake in a note to you just a few minutes ago.  My REAL question is not about over-proofing (the final rise), but about bulk fermentation and retarding, as you say, 2-3 days.  Is there a down-side to bulk fermentation retarding this long?  Any risk of spoiling the loaf?  Please advise.  Than ks, Jim Burgin

Jay Keith's picture
Jay Keith

There's always a risk of exhausting the supply of nutriments for the yeast to consume, which would cause the dough to collapse, of course (BTDTGTTS). But if you start with a very small amount of yeast, say 0.1%, retard in a refrigerator and de-gas occasionally on the way, it's no different from using any other process, once you find the right figures to plug into the yeast:flour:temperature:time equation.

FYI, I use a fairly high hydration rate, in the low- to mid-eighties percent, leave the dough at ambient temperature for about four or five hours after mixing to let the yeast get going, then do 10 or a dozen slap-and-folds before refrigerating. Eight or twelve hours later I'll de-gas and stretch-and-fold the dough. After that, the dough will probably get one de-gas/slap-and-roll session per day before handing up, shaping, final prove and bake, up to forty or so hours from mixing.

This is for my standard sandwich loaf, using a spelt/emmer/khorosan, 70% wholewheat mix, with malted wheat flakes, malt extract and some Greek yoghurt.

I don't find there's very much difference between a thirty and a forty hour ferment and tend to use the longer ferment for convenience, rather than flavour, these days.

Jim Burgin's picture
Jim Burgin

Jay,  Thanks much.  Jim Burgin

Jim Burgin's picture
Jim Burgin

Thanks much Edo.  This is real clear and supports my suspicions.  Jim

Edo Bread's picture
Edo Bread

Glad it was helpful. People can have a lot of strong opinions on these things. Good to look at some science and see what the experiments show.

mwilson's picture
mwilson

Science? Data from an experiment is only as good as the experimental design. Then there is the interpretation of that data from which conclusions are drawn. Free from bias is always the hope.

Taken on its own without seeing the full write up the content of that article you linked is nothing more than a strong opinion too.

For it to be suggested that different pre-ferments have no variable effect is quite closed minded.

The differences that are observable, mostly with dough handling are quite well established amongst professional bakers. 

The key differences between a Biga and Poolish are not only hydration but also include differences in yeast dosage versus maturation time and differences in temperature at which they are held.

I suspect and it is suggested that the writers of Modernist Bread don't have clear understanding of what defines a biga starter and how it used. This shows poor research. I'm not convinced they ever looked at a book written by an Italian baker probably because it was in Italian!

From all I have seen US bakers generally treat the Biga incorrectly like a poolish. The only US baker I have seen write a knowledgeable article about pre-ferments is Didier Rosada (SFBI).

"Baking is a connected process" I once read, variations in the procedure along the way contribute to differences in the final dough and resulting bread.

 

Edo Bread's picture
Edo Bread

And thus my point about why I was not offering an opinion but simply a link. Because someone like you always has to come around and write their opinions with no other "evidence" than what they think to be true and shoot others down. The Modernist Bread folks have all the stats on how many experiments they conducted, how they did it. Take it or leave it. I have no agenda. It was offered as something to read, not as a truth. 

mwilson's picture
mwilson

I wasn't accusing you of any wrong doing. I was only scrutinising the content of that which you linked. I was just suggesting you be careful to what you consider fact. Don't be fooled just because someone has money, backing and a book.

Evidence? I have no problem backing up my words. I mentioned Didier Rosada (SFBI).

The piece he wrote on pre-ferments can be found,

here: https://my2cents.gawaher.com/20763/bon-appetit/baking/pre-ferments-by-didier-rosada.html

 and

here: http://learningknowledgetomakepizza.blogspot.com/2011/06/understanding-dough-in-more-depth-by.html

Don't under estimate "People". It is the people that make this forum!

 

 

Edo Bread's picture
Edo Bread

I never claimed it was a fact. Or that I believe it, or that I incorporate any of that in my baking.

What I said was some might fight it interesting (which they did) - take a look at SOME science and see what it shows. No conclusion or opinion given. Manly because as this shows, even when you just point at something there is always somebody to jump on it and criticize. 

Jim Burgin's picture
Jim Burgin

Thanks for the 2 references.  Especially the first one - very helpful.  Jim Bujrgin

suave's picture
suave

I hear what you are saying, but in practice, with strong American white flours and modern instant yeast that's exactly what you will get - two indistinguishable breads.

albacore's picture
albacore

Empirically, I would say that a biga made with 1% fresh yeast at 50% hydration and at 16C is going to give a different flavour to the finished loaf than a poolish with 0.2% fresh yeast at 100% hydration at 20C.

Often the biga flour is 50% of the total flour and a poolish is 30% as another factor.

I've certainly noticed some pretty fruity and wine like flavours when a biga is turned out which I haven't noticed with a poolish.

Just because the Modernist Bread team have spent a lot of time and money making the "Box Set", doesn't mean that we should believe every conclusion that they come to.

 

Lance

Jim Burgin's picture
Jim Burgin

There, there boys. Let's play nice.

2.  Anyone have a thought about the comment above that asks why use a pre-ferment at all - Why not just let the whole ingredient mix ferment longer - even a day or two in the fridge?

Thanks, Jim

suave's picture
suave

Sure, you can do that, there are entire books written on the topic.  However, it does not always save all that much time and trouble.

Jim Burgin's picture
Jim Burgin

Thanks Suave.  What books?   

suave's picture
suave

Artisan Breads Every Day by Reinhart, My Bread by Lahey.  I am sure there is more but these two will cover the topic, and you won't be wasting money on people trying to make a quick buck.

Jay Keith's picture
Jay Keith

Isn't saving time and trouble how we ended up with indigestible, no-time, loaves of aerated dough?

I do it so that all of the flour has been fully fermented and subjected to the same amount of enzymatic activity.

suave's picture
suave

I hope you realize that yeast fermentation involves something like 1-2% of the flour.  It is never "fully fermented".

Jay Keith's picture
Jay Keith

Then, let's say "equally".

Edo Bread's picture
Edo Bread

I see your point, but saving time and trouble is relative. A pre-ferment does jump start the process, but it isn't a high speed commercial yeast. As has been noted here, they have developed some flavour, the flour is hydrated and can do all the good stuff without as much time required.