The Fresh Loaf

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Shaping technique

IPlayWithFood's picture
IPlayWithFood

Shaping technique

A question about shaping, which seems to be underdiscussed on this forum and the stuff of the dark arts ("you need just the right sort of touch, not too hard, not too firm, degassing just slightly but not completely or not at all") - how does shaping technique influence the size of the bubbles in the dough, and how does one keep track of where the large and small bubbles are in the dough to be able to redistribute them well?

I generally shape with Trevor's 'stitching' technique, but my shaping generally leaves the inside very dense and the outer areas of the loaf with comparatively larger holes, such as this:

I tried it again, but but with a couple of amendments (to describe my shaping process as best as I can, it usually involves pulling the bottom two corners and folding the dough a third upwards, then folding in the left and right sides, then folding in the top, then stretching and folding each of the two corners left sticking out on either side, then flipping the loaf and rounding it on the table with a circular motion), and got this:

What in my shaping process caused the massive holes in the side, and how could I shape this differently in the future to avoid this problem? I have also suspected that my scoring (and hence the areas from which the air is allowed to escape the dough) might affect the distribution of the crumb, but I am uncertain since both these loaves were scored with the same pattern (albeit perhaps to different depths).

bikeprof's picture
bikeprof

I think it gets discussed quite a bit, and perhaps more than it deserves, IMO, as people focus on this element of skilled hand work, rather than everything else that goes into determining the structure of their loaves (and I've been there).

In this case, it is impossible to divine a clear shaping error from these shots of two nice loaves...aside from not recognizing the presence of some extra large bubbles in the dough during preshape and shaping (and popping them) in the second loaf.  That is one of the skills that comes with practice, as you handle the dough and see how it responds to your touch, you can tell where there are large air pockets lurking and do something about them.

I don't see how scoring is going to affect the distribution of the crumb, or result in large bubbles.

bikeprof's picture
bikeprof

...just to clarify...I don't want to dismiss what Trevor and others say about shaping and gentle handling...but rather, to emphasize that that will only make a difference if you have the structure there to work with. 

IPlayWithFood's picture
IPlayWithFood

Thanks for your comments.. I've tried looking out for these 'extra large bubbles' and have no idea 1. how to spot them and 2. how to pop them! When shaping oftentimes I get large bubbles right at the surface, which I press and pinch around until they kinda disappear..

kendalm's picture
kendalm

for a more consistent crumb one can be more aggressive degassing and irregular, more gentle. It seems quite often people get a bit sensitive re degassing for fear of killing the treasured larger co2 pockets. But, when push comes to shove the majority of 'holes' are the product of the tiniest co2 pockets that have been energized enough to overcome the potential energy stored in the gluten network. IMHO, it's ok to lean on the more aggressive side (generally speaking)

IPlayWithFood's picture
IPlayWithFood

So I have a comment like yours which states that aggressive degassing is fine, and a post like the one below that says that you can do next to nothing at all, and the posts by Trevor who says that gentle handling to avoid overmuch degassing would be ideal for a more open crumb.. I reckon something must influence the openness (or not) of the crumb and hence be open to manipulation; are you saying it is not the shaping?

kendalm's picture
kendalm

Shaping certainly influences crumb structure but more the different sizes and volumes of a loaf. All I'm am trying to emphasize is that degassing also seems to influence the consistency of crumb - ie gently degassing lends to a more irregular and aggressive to a more consistent crumb - I only say that because I used to fear killing bubbles and wondered how pros could smack out what seemed like all the juicy big bubbles with a very forceful hand and then reveal majestic crumb. Soon I realized they were more or less creating a more consistent structure - and with that, it just seems there's sometimes stigma associated with rough housing it - it's ok to do in some cases - sometimes you gotta be forceful and show the dough whos the boss ;)

 

 

trailrunner's picture
trailrunner

if you look at my most recent crumb it looks like your first pic which i think is perfect! I dont subscribe to “ shaping” at all. No preshape for sure. Remove dough from bucket onto lightly floured surface. Gently cut in half with dough scraper. Pat to a more or less square. Pull each corner to the center and turn it over and round it a bit and plop in banneton with the rough side down so it opens naturally. Thats it. Underproof at bulk and in banneton for great oven spring. 

As was stated fermentation has way more to do with the holes in your bread than shaping. Hope this helps

IPlayWithFood's picture
IPlayWithFood

May try this for my next loaf and see how things turn out - thanks for the suggestion! (:

IPlayWithFood's picture
IPlayWithFood

75%BF20%WW5%Rye, ~78%Hydration: It appears that minimal shaping (just got it into a rough boule-shape after dumping it out, waited five minutes and shaped it with four corners and a quick rounding) has given me my best crumb so far:

However, I accidentally neglected to aggressively degas the way kendalm suggested; in fact, this loaf was done with minimal degassing so the loaf was pretty proofy even right after final shaping.

I still, however, have my same old problems:

1. The scores don't seem to open up to give ears; in fact they seal up.

2. Additionally, this bread was clearly trying to expand horizontally rather than vertically - I think if not for my overturned pot (you can see where the edges formed a 'lip' after expanding into the shape of my pot, as well as the completely flat surface) this would have been a flying saucer/pancake..

3. I still get large bubbles around the periphery.

Anyone can explain what might be going on here?

kendalm's picture
kendalm

prolly heat transfer - it comes in from the surface and heads to the center - if it takes too long to get to thr middle it will be more dense there - bigger loaf means more energy needed (I'm sure most tflers sick of hearing me harp on this) - try a smaller loaf one at a time in the oven ;)

kendalm's picture
kendalm
franbaker's picture
franbaker

Raymond Calvel teaching Julie Child how to form a baguette...  amazing!

franbaker's picture
franbaker

I wonder if my very wet, sticky 100% whole grain doughs will ever handle like that... how much is my lack of skill, and how much is the dough? Only time and practice will tell...

I don't like to shape with flour on my board, because the wet, sticky dough just sucks it up, and then I've got to dump on more flour -- and again it sucks it up, and again I've got to add more flour -- in a never-ending process that can't possibly be a good thing.

So, since I got a granite pastry board, I've started using water on my hands, my knife, and the board, instead of flour. I love the way that works, except that I haven't yet figured out how to get any traction on the dough, in order to tighten up the shape and get a skin on it. Any ideas, anyone?

kendalm's picture
kendalm

That calvel vid sure is a treasure aint it ! Amd hammelman too and it's amazing to see different styles and I think it just reinforces the whole idea of to each his /her own. More than anything else the message I get is respect the dough and you should get a good command of it. 

one thing I find to be rather sensitive is the countertop - I watch a lot of vids in French and often hear 'ca va glisser' (it will slide) and it's the honest truth that too much flour kills traction. At the same time especially on a granite surface it will stick with too little flour. However given the choice of slide or stick, I will take stick any day - you an also see that in calvels shaping. The key seems to be clearing the surface of flour but also having some flour nearby just enough pick up a little as you roll out - too much and again it slides.  this is probably my favorite baguette video - it's contemporary - notice how the surface is nearly entirely clean when he rolls - https://youtu.be/DkHsbchF2-g?t=5m35s

 

 

 

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

you can schmear flour into the wood and then scrape the rest away and it will be perfect for shaping.  I have an old butcher block counter in the the garage.  My granite counters replaced it on my Island.  The most stupid thing that ever happened ever in my entire life.  Learn from my horrible mistake.

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

I have moved from my maple butcher block island to the granite counter. I have reduced the amount of flour I was using for shaping by at least 75%. I can now cleanly round a boule without leaving dough stuck all over the place. I much prefer the granite to the wooden counter.

WatertownNewbie's picture
WatertownNewbie

Danni, I also have a granite island that I use for dough work, and I use fairly little flour now.  The final step of shaping a boule where it grabs on the countertop is pretty nice too.  Excellent for surface tension.

franbaker's picture
franbaker

for the final shaping, if I can't get the granite to work for that. I really love it for mixing on the board and for slap & folds. Just a teeny bit of water on it and really sticky dough hardly ever sticks at all (although you do have to keep the surface wet. If the dough hits the edge, where the water has dried out, it'll stick a tiny bit). It's great for working in the salt, or small amounts of more water, don't have to put the dough back in the bowl. I only wish I had gotten a larger one (12" x 16" for $30, whereas the 16" x 20" marble one would have cost me $70... but now I think it would have been worth it).

I wonder if that old butcher block counter could be cut down a little to make a great pastry or cutting board. Not that I would have the tools or skills to do such a thing. But it would be sitting in my garage waiting for that opportunity rather than having been sent away.

franbaker's picture
franbaker

when making 100%WW bread, is whether I should use the same home-milled flour I've used in the dough for my board work, or use AP flour instead. Since the wet, sticky dough picks up so much flour, I've been using the WW, but suspecting that the AP might work better. I really love working on the granite board with water for most things, but not when I want just a tiny bit of traction.

IPlayWithFood's picture
IPlayWithFood

Dab/Kendalm: Will try those techniques on my next loaf - thanks! What I'm really intrigued to know is, if one changes a shaping method, certeris paribus, how is the crumb structure affected?

IPlayWithFood's picture
IPlayWithFood

Shaped it way tighter and degassed far more with his folding-dough-in-on-itself method, seems to have helped slightly with getting the barest of ears:

But score has still sealed up, and the inside of the loaf shows no dice:

I figure this isn't an issue of shaping but an issue of technique, so I'll list what I did:

5g starter, 48g WW, 24g Rye, 72ml water, sat for about 8h till doubled.

363 BF, 48g WW, 291ml water: pre-mixed 1h before levain and 8.5g salt added. 75% hydration.

Rubaud for 10min, then S&Fs intermittently for 2h for more structure. 7.5h in the fridge, then it came out - hadn't doubled by that point, so I let it rest at room temperature til about doubled.

This is a longer BF than most of my loaves, was wondering if I was cutting the BF too short and figured the more aggressive degassing during shaping would prevent overproofing.

Shaped (degassed quite a bit), then into my lined colander for 1h at room temp, 1.5h in the fridge, then another 1h at room temp, before putting on a baking tray, overturning my slow cooker pot on the dough (it spread out quite a lot) and baking.

..is this overproofed?

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

I usually try not to, but it raises the point - degass or not. what is the effect of such degassing? Does it make the crumb more even? I like an open crumb, not extreme though with somewhat irregular aveoli.  I thought, watching them  shape in these videos as well as kendalm’s one, they definitely get more tension in their shaping (and more “layers” from folds) than I do.  thanks for posting these links..

so dabrownman, kendalm and any one else who wants to chime in, I would love to hear your thoughts on this - the effect of degassing and final tension of the shaping on the crumb.

Leslie

IPlayWithFood's picture
IPlayWithFood

Since my best crumb so far came from a lightly-handled, not-very-degassed loaf, decided to try that approach again. 10% rye this time but otherwise still 70% BF, 20% WW, 77.5% hydration.

2.5%:10%:10% levain made at 9, was doubled by 2, dough made and left to BF for 3.5h with 4-5 S&Fs (lost count), a bit warmer today so I pre-shaped, left sitting for 10min, shaped it (bottom half up, two sides in and top half down, then rounding on counter) and proofed it for a further 1.5h (didn't leave it for too long since I didn't degas it too much either), then baked under my slow cooker pot for 25min, removed it for 20, and left it in the turned-off oven for a further 15 (my breads bake through in this amount of time, generally).

Am I scoring too shallow? My decorative cuts can hardly be seen, the slash has also sealed up. (Sorry for the rotated images)

Now have a decent ear, but still nothing like the blooms I see all over this forum - hardly visible on the cross-section of the bread you see below, for example:

And my perennial head-ache remains - how do I find these stupid large bubbles and get rid of them during shaping? I don't see Trevor or Mac at SFBI trying particularly hard to look for them in their videos..

 

Abe's picture
Abe (not verified)

Instead of getting a nice airy loaf with a good even crumb and holes, why not knock out all the gas when shaping, allow it to final proof and bake? 

You might not get the crumb you want but you'll be able to see how you're keeping the bigger holes you should be knocking out. 

Lots of us see Trevor handling bread but not many of us can replicate that. 

IPlayWithFood's picture
IPlayWithFood

That was kinda what I was trying to do with the Hamelman-technique-imitation loaf one post above though - patted it flat to degas it, then folded it in on itself multiple times which I'm quite sure deflated it..

Abe's picture
Abe (not verified)

1: you reintroduced little airpockets while shaping.

2: a fermentation issue. Sometimes big uneven holes alongside a tighter crumb will mean an issue in the proofing.