In search of perfection
So recently I've been baking the same recipe over and over again - 5g starter into 73g rye/73g water, letting the levain peak (or sit for 12 hours or so, depending on my schedule), meanwhile autolysing 313g BF/48g WW in 300ml (or so) water (for about a 77% hydration) an hour or so before peak, and adding the starter and 8.5g salt to that. That then gets S&Fed two or three times in the first two hours, before being left in the fridge overnight to finish BF or left on the counter for another hour or so until it finishes BF. Then it gets turned out, preshaped, left for 10min or so, shaped, and left on the counter for an hour or so, before either finishing in the fridge for another couple of hours (depending on schedule) or finishing on the counter for two more hours or so (6h total counter fermentation time, or thereabouts). I generally score and bake straight from the fridge.
Have gotten some satisfactory bakes so far, such as these
These are the first time I have managed to get a decent ear on my loaves, which I attributed to a tighter shaping process. But I noticed they hadn't exactly sprang up very much, so I decided to try again, erring on the side of underproofing, and ended up with this
Wasn't happy with the crumb in that one, so I tried again with a gentler pre-shape and shape in order to minimize the amount that I degassed the dough after BF, and have ended up with what I think is my best crumb yet:
The problem is that again, this loaf is a little squat, and the ear has also disappeared, with the cuts completely sealing themselves up. I also have a crust that is thicker than I would like; have gotten a shatteringly crispy thin crust once before and am eager to replicate that effort:
So, in short, what I am after - a crumb at least as evenly-distributed and open as my last crumb, but with good ovenspring and ear (even my first two attempts are not as satisfactory as I would like, given the massive bloomers I see all the time on this forum!), and a thinner crust.
So far my possible diagnoses for this problem are insufficient steam in the oven - my oven has a steam vent (for steam to escape), and so far I've been steaming my oven with a small muffin cup of boiling water which I boil on the kettle, then pour into the cup which goes on the floor of the oven. In roughly the time it takes for the oven to preheat, the water also starts boiling in the muffin cup, and at that point the loaf goes into the oven. I do not have a combo cooker or dutch oven, nor do I have a stainless steel mixing bowl that can go over the loaf.
Also, since I proof in a permeable-cloth-lined colander, perhaps the fridge might be drying out the outer layer of the dough a bit too much?
Also, I have read somewhere that if bread is handled more gently during shaping, perhaps scores need to be deeper to allow it to oven-spring better to compensate for a slightly less taut skin? A side question on that point, if bread is degassed less post-BF, does it mean it should be proofed for a shorter time to avoid overproofing?
Hello,
Personally, what I would do is lower your hydration. I am getting crumb like yours with 70% hydration, but much better ovenspring and that ball shape rather than a flat shape. Also, I would S+F more than just 3x in the first few hours, maybe once an hour for the entire bulk. You are using right around 20% starter, where I use about 5-10%. This shouldn't be a problem, it should even help with your rise, as long as you are mixing to window pane and S+Fing some strength into the dough during bulk.
As far as steam goes, I don't think its your issue. Though, instead of throwing boiling water on the oven floor, why not put a sheet pan directly on the coils and preheat it with your oven. Throw the water on that, and it'll steam up real nice. That being said, the best oven spring I've gotten is with the combo cooker, and they are cheap.
I don't think your dough would dry out as long as the cloth covers the dough. Does it feel or look dry?
Finally, I don't think squeezing gas out during shaping decreases the age of the dough, it just makes it seem that way. If you proof a tightly shaped round more, it will just not have as good ovenspring and ears. It won't 'loosen up'. Neither will a loosely shaped round proof faster. At least in my experience.
I baked this bread today. I think I overproofed a little, and didn't score as deeply as I needed to on the side opposite the one pictured, but it got a good rise and good ears.
And the crumb is nice and lacy and somewhat open, especially for a 70%er.
Looks great! Congrats!
Thanks for the suggestions - will try!
What about after doing the stretch and folds, buik fermentation, pre-shape and shaping - it goes directly into the fridge overnight until you bake it the next day (or whatever your time frame is). I would not let it sit out for an hour or so before putting it into the fridge. The other variable is the composition of your flours. Your starter is rye, but what are you using in your final dough? That can have a big effect on proofing. Other more experienced bakers can weigh in here.
Another point - and it’s just my opinion - I like to use a “younger” starter - one that is about 4-6 hours after being fed. I feed it the night before and then - obviously time permitting - discard - and refresh and use that as my levain. I’ve had better results and I prefer a less acidic taste. You can always prepare it ahead and put in the fridge and then take it out about an hour or so to warm up during the autolyse.
Sharon
How would you say the extra hour sitting out would or would not affect the dough? Wouldn't that just mean that the dough needs more time in the fridge to properly proof? Also, my flours are majority bread flour (75% Marriages), with a smallish percentage (15 rye 10 WW) of wholegrain flours. How would that in turn affect proofing?
So I made this yesterday, which was a garlic-rosemary loaf with 75% Marriages and 25% supermarket wholewheat. The preferment was created from 5g of starter, 15% water and 15% wholewheat, with the other 10% WW and 75% bread flour autolysed with 62% water for an hour before the peaked starter was added, together with some cooked garlic and chopped up dried rosemary.
The dough was then mixed with the Rubaud method for about 10-15min. It felt drier than my other 75% doughs so I added a bit of water to bring it to a similar consistency, and I think I ended with hydration at about 80%. (I had forgotten GTBU's advice to drop the hydration..) This had a sluggish start due to slightly cooler room temperatures, but had bulk fermented fully by about 3.5h. In that time, as GTBU suggested above, I stretched and folded about six times (once per half an hour or so).
I then shaped it and left it in the fridge to rest overnight as you suggested, and 6 hours later when I took it out it had about doubled, and so I was scared of leaving it in there for any longer and baked it immediately (on a sheet pan with a cold-start oven - method derived from some people on this forum - for lack of more time to let the oven preheat). This was the result:
The dough had deflated quite a bit post-scoring, and while I got a pretty decent ovenspring (the sides had risen off the pan by a fair bit), the slash had completely sealed over, and I had no discernible bloom whatsoever. (Crumb shot to follow) I know GTBU suggests that it could be a question of hydration, but this here is a perfect example of what I'm looking for - from a 80% hydrated loaf no less, so I now it should be doable!
I'm beginning to suspect it might be my lack of steam.. because even when just-boiled water goes into a muffin cup on the floor of the oven getting direct heat from the element, it takes some time to get back up to boiling again, which is where it really gets steam into the oven. Or maybe the surface area of the muffin cup is too small for a sufficient amount of steam. My oven also has a vent which lets out steam.. I unfortunately do not have a cast iron combo cooker, nor do I have more than the one sheet pan (which is being used for my bread) as suggested by GTBU. Might a stainless steel mixing bowl inverted over the bread help, perhaps?
I agree with your assessment that the muffin cup simply has too little surface area. I use the broiler pan that came with my stove as my steam pan. The pan is preheated with the oven. When boiling water hits it, there is an immediate eruption of steam. The remaining water is spread over the large surface of the pan and boils off within 5-10 minutes. That means I don't have to open the oven to pull the pan out, which would allow heat to escape from the oven.
The only downside so far is having to scrub the mineral deposits from the pan afterward.
Paul
Ah, thanks for that! My only problem with using the broiler pan is that it messes up my bottom heat - because I don't have a dutch oven or a baking stone (and also dislike the energy inefficiency), I put the loaf on the bottomost rack for the first 15 minutes, which gives it enough direct radiating bottom heat to get ovenspring. I wonder if I could put the broiler pan in a higher shelf instead, and heat it with the top element..?
Also an update on the crumb.. I need some diagnosis
I've always had the impression that these massive caverns are caused by underproofing, where a too-tight gluten network means all the gas migrates to the top of the loaf and collects under the skin, creating massive caverns. My 80% hydration seems to have ensured a nice network of holes all along the bottom, so what would these massive caverns be caused by? I can't seem to think of how this could have been formed by shaping either - I used pretty much the same shaping technique as all my previous loaves.
Edit: Upon some further reflection, it seems these caverns seem to congregate in the approximate area where I score. Could it be that the lack of steam means the top crusts over to an extent that the score is unable to burst, and so the air which should open it up and cause the bloom just collects there instead?
Regarding S & F's - I like to do three sets every 15 minutes, and then two or three more about 30 minutes apart. I find this works well for me, especially with a higher hydrated dough. Pre-shaping is a challenge for me when the dough is around 80%, but once shaped and then put in the fridge, I get really great oven spring. I score and immediately put in the oven. For me, steam has not worked well - don't know why - I use a dutch oven and have good results.
My point about leaving it on the counter - there is always the risk of over proofing. I asked about the flour because absorption is different for different flours and adjusting the hydration can be a factor. I'm not an expert here - just my experience.
I have also had bread with those large holes and it ended up being a fairly dense bread. I don't have an answer for that one - others with more experience can answer that. But often when we add things like the sauteed garlic, etc. - it changes the structure of the dough and maybe how we handle it. I tried adding seeds once and for me it wasn't a good result.
I think all in all, you have some nice looking loaves there!