The Fresh Loaf

A Community of Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts.

Needing a little help!

Jaybird's picture
Jaybird

Needing a little help!

New to the forum and very new to the bread making fun!  OMG what a blast it is!  I have been making beer and wine for 18 years!  Bread is on the same path for me!  I do need a little help!  

I am having an issue that I wanted to throw and toss off you all and see if you have any insight to my process that I can change or recipe ideas to change.  Whats happening is I am having my dough basically just deflate when I cut it to put it in the oven ( ya know the bakers signature).  So everything seems to be going well with the process.  I mix and then knead till I am window test approved I set the dough to proof, knock it back after a few hours and roll for final proofing in the baskets.  But when I transfer to the baking tray and score (cut the top) the dough totally deflates and becomes this really dense dough.  It will have this killer shape of the proofing bowl but the second I hit it with the blade it deflates to about 1/2 its size  What gives?  

Here is the recipe 

800G bread flour

460 ML water

12 G salt

320 ML starter (about 20 year old starter) you would think it knows what to do..LOL

Mix and kneed till window test proves good then into a clean bowl for about 3 hours to proof.

knock it down and portion/roll/moluld and into the proofing baskets for 3-4 hours

Pull from baskets and into a 425*F oven for 30-35 min with a bit of steam

For the most part I am getting an OK bread.  "for the most part"! BUT, I am having my dough collapse when I cut it before I put in the oven.  

Does anyone have any insight in this?  Too wet?  To dry?  Not enough proofing time?  Too much proofing time?  I am a little frustrated but I am dredging forward and thought I would ask a group for a little help and insight.

 

Thanks for any insight!  

Cheers

Jay

IPlayWithFood's picture
IPlayWithFood

Quickly deflating dough sounds like an overproofing issue, especially given the large proportion of starter (40%) you're using!

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

A sure sign of over proofing is the dough deflating when scored. 

However over proofing is not to be confused with over fermenting. Over fermenting is allowing the dough to ferment to a point where all the food is used up. Over proofing is allowing it to rise too much after shaping. If a dough is over proofed it's not necessarily over fermented. Should that be the case then the dough can be reshaped and proofed again. 

clazar123's picture
clazar123

What you are describing-"deflates when scoring"- is a classic description of an overproofed dough. The simple answer is to not proof it so long. But the devil is in the details as to how best to work with your dough.

Let's also establish a common language. If found that to be a challenge when I first starter baking bread and seeking information here on TFL.

Bread making stages:

*Mixing/kneading/stretch and folding dough to windowpane.

*Fermentation/bulk fermentation/first rise-usually to double but often to 3/4, rarely to triple.

*De-gas/knock down/punch down-done more often with finely textured (sandwich crumb) breads. Gently S&F with artisan style crumb (bigger holes) to distribute the bubbles more evenly.

*Sometimes there is a second rise that is a duplicate of the first rise.

*Pre-shape/bench rest

*Shape and place in pan or bannetone

*Proof/final proof-NOT to double. (This is where finger-poke test is used. A firm fingerpoke will indent but the dough can still fill in slowly. If it fills in right away, the dough isn't ready. If it indents and stays indented it is overproofed.) Overproofed dough can be re-shaped and proofed again as long as the yeast have food to eat. With a high amount of yeast (as in your dough with a high percentage of starter) you might or might not be able to do this once. With commercial yeast or a much lower percentage of starter, you may be able to do this numerous times (according to Modernist Bread).

*Bake-hot oven or cold oven. Steam for first 10 minutes keeps the dough soft enough to expand fully before setting. Yeast goes hyperactive for the first part and can exude lots of CO2 to make bubbles while the bubbles expand in the growing heat. Steam actually ENTERS the bread (according to Modernist Bread) and helps expand and cook the dough. Yeast dies when internal dough reaches 140F. Loaf is done baking when internal temp reaches 190-210F (depending on dough ingredients). The crust can caramelize with a Maillard reaction when the sugars in the crust reach 320F. If your loaf is pale, there is not enough sugar to caramelize no matter how long or hot you bake it. It is overfermented either during the bulk fermentation or proofing phase. The dough is dead or close to death.

*Cooling-moisture in crumb is re-distributed throughout the crumb for a more even moisture. The denser the bread, the more critical it is to wait before breaking the crust.

So the answer to your problem in dough deflation is to learn when your dough is properly proofed. This is something that many people (myself included) can struggle with. If you make the same dough over and over, you can get to know the dough and it becomes easier. Start by looking at the dough and not the clock because as the temp of the room and dough ingredients change with the seasons, the fermentation and proofing times will change. Learn th dough.

How long it takes dough to both bulk ferment or proof depends on yeast population and temperature (of the room and the dough). The most ideal condition is that your starter is strong (meaning it has a high yeast population) and the DDT (desired dough temperature) is 80-82F.

Tell us about your starter. Is it maintained in a liquid,semiliquid or stiff state? How is it maintained? How long does it take to double when fed?

SO "Search" for finger poke test but also know that there may be conflicting info about it. Think about what is actually happening during this simple finger-poke and it is easier to know how to judge it.

Delicious baking!

 

 

Jaybird's picture
Jaybird

Over proofing you say?  AWESOME!  Thank you!  Sounds like an easy fix... :)

So the starter .  Once I got it it was fairly liquid like.  After pulling from the fridge and feeding a few times it was VERY active!  I would say it will double once fed in just about 5-6 hours or so.  It will stick to the scoop and stretch about 10-12 inches while I am adding it to the dough mix. so I am not sure if it is considered stiff wet or semi 

A couple of thoughts.  Do you guys think I am using too much starter?  Like I said its just a recipe a guy overseas posted in his video.  The bread he made looked glorious so of course I wanted to emulate it! 

Can I do the first rise for a longer time like 5 to 6 hours to assist that "more sour taste" and then keep my proof shorter.  I have been primary rise for 3 hours or so and the same with the proof.  I am shooting for a fairly sour bread. 

Again thank you for the feedback!  I made more dough last night and proofed in the fridge so I am looking forward to a little baking this morning!

 

Happy Mothers day to all you moms!  Without you none of us would be the same.  

 

Cheers

Jay

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

for new bakers knowing when white SD bread dough is properly proofed and ready for the oven.  It is ready at 90% proof.  I had a similar problem, not collapsing but not springing or blooming in the oven heat.  The problem is the shape of the proofing basket and not being able to know when the dough has proofed.  It doesn't rise twice as high, it rises about an inch in the weirdly shaped basket.

The way to know what your basket should look like when the dough is 90% proofed is to make some extra dough and put this into a straight sided container that you can see through at the same time you put the rest of the dough in the basket to proof.   Mark the level of the glass and when it rises 90% in the glass the dough in the basket is ready for the oven.  Easy as pie and that is how easy it is to fix this problem. 

Jaybird's picture
Jaybird

So I made some more dough last night and let it proof in the fridge for 8 hours.  It was AMAZING!  like AMAZING AMAZING!  I served 3 loaves for Mothers Day today and the 2 I proofed in the fridge were absolutely the best!  

I have been proofing for about 3-4 hours so i will start watching the dough a little closer to catch it on the rise.  Thanks a bunch for the info!  

 

Cheers

Jay