Trevor’s pre-mix method failing
I’m reading Open Crumb Mastery and Trevor describes pre-mix method - you mix your flour, water and salt in the evening, chill it for a couple of hours and then leave it on the counter until next morning. In the morning you add your levain (I actually use my ripened starter) mix, bulk and so on. The idea is that although the salt tightens the gluten strands, there’s enough time for the autolyse to happen (even though this isn’t really autolyse by definition).
I’ve so far had a mixed bag of success with this method. I like that you add all your water and salt immediatelly as it’s much easier to mix in just the levain/starter than mixing in some reserved water and salt. However, two times now after bulk I ended up with a either a very slack dough or a thick soup, both due to gluten disintegrating (I’m not entirely sure that was the case with the slack dough, but it seems to be).
My formula is:
- 300g AP flour (T55)
- 150g WW flour (T85)
- 310g water
- 10g salt
- 100g mature starter (100% hydration, fed twice a day, usually 30% rye, 70% T550)
I do the pre-mix in the evening, chill it for 1-2h and take it out. In the morning I spread out my starter on top, mix it in and bulk for 3-6 hours with stretch and folds every half hour 3-5 times (depending on how it’s going and what the kitchen temps are). My kitchen is usually at 25C. Today I had a disaster after 3hours and 3-4 sets of stretch and folds.
Any idea what might have happened? I’m going to try doing a pure autolyse for half an hour in the morning and then add the rest of the ingredients, but the pre-mix method seemed like a nice idea.
happening for you. Have you tried another flour? Just one type to see if it's one of your flours that's messing things up?
When I use Trevor's method I stick the premix into the Fridge and leave it there all night. I take it out the next morning and let it come to room temperature. Then I add the starter and proceed. I bulk ferment at room temp and then shape and toss back into fridge (again overnight) for final rise.
I had that happen once.
I think it was just because I forgot the salt - and thereby the flour digested itself.
There is a whole thread on here with people making Trevor's Champlain loaf using the premix method and what I have found with UK flour that even with the salt most of the flours totally degrade if left over night and end up in flat loaves....
The salt is included to help for the flour not to degrade too much but whatever I did I could not get it to work with the overnight pre-mix.
So I now use a max. 2 hour autolyse without the salt and add salt and levain after autolyse and get good results for the Champlain loaf with spelt and rye. Kat
I just had this happen to me with a 100% freshly milled loaf. I think the very weak gluten in freshly milled flour combined with high enzymatic activity is too much for an extended autolyse, even in the fridge with salt.
I agree with Kat. I have not had good success with the over night premix. When I shortened the premix to 2 hours at room temp things worked out for me.
Jim, I think you are correct in thinking the whole grain flour has too much enzymatic activity. You’ll either have to use all or a large portion of processed flour or cut way back on the premix time.
I have been working a lot lately with extended room temp bulk ferments. I can tell you that the dough temperature is very important. A few degrees can make an enormous difference. In my testing the difference between a dough temp of 76F and 78F over an extended ferment will produce one dough that is nice to work with and the other is degraded to the point where it won’t produce a decent loaf.
Dan
I think both you and Kat maybe on to something. So yeah, I’m using Croatian flour - T550 which is less than 10% in protein and T850 which is around 11-11.5%. It’s not ideal, I know, but I can’t get flour much better than that. I’ve managed to make ciabatta using just the T550 at about 90% hydration without a problem, but it was yeasted dough so my guess is the flour can take it, but not the premix of that length.
Also the temperature, yeah, I agree, if the final dough temperature is a tad too high I get a soupy mess in no time. Funny how that happens with sourdough, industrial yeast can take a much greater beating :)
I think I’ll give an up to 2h autolyse a go and see it from there, thanks!
I remember reading his pre-mix method and have used it several times with good results. BUT, I do the opposite of what you wrote. I mix the flour, water and salt together around 6pm, leave it on the counter until about 11pm, place it in the fridge and in the morning mix in the levain, bulk, etc.. I have his book here but don't remember where he mentions this in it and kind find the passage. Can you remind me.. maybe I'm doing it backwards (room temp, then fridge) or you are.. Let me know.. thanks.. if you are then that could be your problem..