Tartine Bread Issues
So I tried the Tartine's basic country loaf for the first time and I am trying to understand what did not work properly. Here is what I did:
-The leaven rose for 12 hours at 66F. It had more than doubled, so I know it was too long.
-Autolyse was 40 min at 70 F
-Bulk fermentation was 3 hours at 82F with a turn every 30 min
-Bench relaxation was 30 min at 73F
-Final rise was 3.5 hours at 77F
-Baking was 45 min at 450F, lowering the temperature from 500F and the last 5 min was at 500F. The loaves were covered for the first 20 min
Here is what I noticed:
-The dough seemed to be less extensible than the pictures from the book after adding the salt and also for the first 1.5 hour during the bulk fermentation. It seemed to improve during the remaining of the bulk fermenataion
-Division and shaping went quite well. I tried to follow this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OaXFQX4Bsk&index=1&list=FLjXgMaejlxCBQTeXsbSBMuQ . I used the bench knife like he did to stretch the surface of the loaves.
-There was a final rise, but maybe it was too much? The loaves almost doubled in size.
-Then things did not go too well from there. The loaves did not keep their shape at all when I took them out from the proofing baskets. Also they stuck to the lining cloth although I had used quite a bit of mixed wheat and rice flour. Also I had a very hard time to score them with a double-edge razor blade as the dough was sticking.
-Although I cooked the loaves for plenty of time, they were still undercooked in the middle.
So what do you think went wrong exactly?
Thanks!
Leaven more than doubling is not an issue. Sounds as if your starter is doing very well. A leaven build is to get it strong and active and from the sound of it yours was. As long as it didn't peak and collapse to a point where it was being starved. From your description you caught it in action.
From the sound of things it may be one of the following...
1. Too hydrated. Even if you followed the recipe to the letter depending on what flour you're using it may be too hydrated hence it didn't keep it shape.
2. Over fermented. Watching the dough and not the clock is a rule you'll find being advised here time and time again. Did it over ferment?
Dough should not double during final rise. You can do a final rise for less time (maybe 2 hours on that day), or proof in the fridge up to overnight. The dough doesn't stick nearly as bad when it's cold.
Dough is really unlikely to have too much water at only 75% hydration.
About the leaven, I think I would have preferred a younger one because the bread is too acidic to my test. So this is why I would prefer aiming for the 20-30% rise mentioned in the book.
The dough was lacking elasticity after the final rise, so yes I think it was too much. The next time I will definitely try timing things so I can proof in the fridge (for about 8 hours?). I guess that going for ~8 hours leaven rise instead of 12 will make it easier as well.
Thanks!
do you have the Tartine bread book? on page 47, the last chapter of section 1, there's a little gem of information.
he says if you think your levain is too acidic, you can refresh your leaven right before you start. mix 1 part levain with 1/2 part flour and 1/2 part water (78f). with this much starter, and the slightly warmer water temp, your new young levain should take about 2 hours before it's ready to use.
so say i needed 200 grams levain for my formula. about 2 hours before i start, i mix: 100 grams overnight levain, 50 grams water, and 50 grams flour.
this is standard practice for how i bake at home these days, so i calculate how much overnight levain i need to go into the levain push 2 hours before i start my mix.
happy levaining!
~andrew
What about the baking time? Normally I don't have temperature issues with my oven. Is it common for the baking time of this recipe to be longer than the suggested 40-45 min?
So I made a second attempt at the recipe. I used the levan after a rise of only 20% this time, so this part was fine. I went with a 3 hours bulk fermentation at 77F and a final rise of 9.5 hours in the fridge + 10 mins outside the fridge. The dough was definitely easier to score this time and I used more flour than necessary to make sure I would not rip the dough apart when removing it from the "basket" (I don't have a real basket yet, so I used a bowl lined with parchemin paper that I oiled and then floured).
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Despite the fact that the dough was holding quite well during the bench test and the final rise in the fridge, it spilled sideways quite a bit when I removed it from the basket to score it (I also put it on a parchemin paper rather than directly on the pan so it stay stiffer for the scoring). During the first 20 mins in the oven when it was covered, it expanded sideways a bit more and also a bit vertically, but not that much. The cuts I had made in the dough opened perfectly smooth without revealing the crumb (which is not desired I assume). After I uncovered the loaf, it then expanded vertically quite a bit, but the crust barely cracked. After a total of 40 mins of baking, the crust barely had any colour. I baked it for another 5 mins at 450F, and then I increased the temperature to 465F for 7 mins. After these 52 mins of baking, the internal temperature was about 212F, so I took the loaf out.
xTAaTK3.jpg
Then I cut it.. There is a gigantic air gap in the loaf.
9v2AfMJ.jpg
So what could be the issues here? Should I deviate from the recipe and use less water to help giving more strength to the dough? Should I use a higher temperature than 450F to bake it? I used unbleached bread flour and stoned milled whole wheat flour that I bought in bulk this week. Do you think the elasticity/strength of my flour is messed up and I should use something else? The common issues I have been having both times I tried the recipe are the following:
-The dough does not keep its shape when I remove it from the basket although I did all the turns and bench tests and folds that are mentioned.
-It seems to bake slower than expected. I used a pizza stone with a big stainless steel put upside down to keep the steam in for the first 20 mins. Both the stone and the pot were preheated for 25 mins at 500F before I put the dough in the oven and lower the temperature down to 450F.
Thanks!
Is it possible that when you did the final shaping you trapped a large gas pocket in the center of your loaf? Or perhaps the dough in that region did not adhere to itself as you brought portions together during the shaping? How are you doing the final shaping?
I did the folds described in the book for the final shaping. I did not divide the dough though since a made a half recipe. Maybe I should have deflated the dough a bit since I did not cut it?
Could there be a link between how smoothly the cut I made by scoring the dough opened and the big bubble? It certainly contributed to trapping the air. I remember a jet of steam coming out of the loaf for a minute after I removed the thermometer...
What does it mean when the scored dough becomes a very smooth surface instead of exposing the crumb?
There are many others on this site who have much more experience than I do and who could comment on the "jet of steam" as well as how the scoring turned out, and I hope that they decide to contribute so that both of us can be better educated on your issues. My question about shaping was my attempt to think of some way for such a large hole to open up. It sounds like you followed a proper way of shaping, and I have no other ideas at this point.
Is there anyone who has an idea what I should change? Change the flour (switch to AP from bread)? Reduce the amount of water? Doing both? Another thing I have noticed is the dough seems a lot stiffer than what is pictured in the book when I do the turns in the first bulk fermentation (I could lift the whole dough from the bowl by just pulling from one side if), but then it never holds its shape when I remove it from the basket.Thanks!
First of all, don't sweat the load. We have all made bricks on occasion. Feed the birds with it.
1st BAKE
A crumb shot of that loaf would have been helpful in comparison to the current loaf. Did it have a flying roof like the second loaf or was it just dense?
If the levain was still able to double or near double the dough in a 3hr bulk fermentation, it might have produced a good loaf. I believe the loaves doubling in a 3 hr final proof is where you ran into trouble. They were very over-proofed. What happens is that the gluten strands stretch and actually weaken. When it is disturbed, the strands break and a lot of the bubbles either collapse into a dense, gummy mess or pop numerous bubbles into 1 giant bubble and the bottom is dense.
How did the dough taste?
2nd BAKE
Very underproofed levain.
I'm unclear on the fermentation. You did a 3 hr fermentation at room temp? Did you S&F during this time? How did the dough feel at the end of the 3 hrs? Puffy,sticky,slack,firm????
Did you shape it before you put it into the refrigerator?
Did you re-shape it before baking? How did the dough appear after 9.5hrs in the refrig.? Sticky, slack, firm? Did a finger indent return or did it stay indented?
What temp is your refrigerator at. What temp range does it cycle at?
Did this loaf taste particularly acidic?
I think there is a 3rd bake in your future. I have never made a recipe from someone else that worked perfectly in my kitchen. I always end up making a recipe at least 3 times (and sometimes more if I really want it) before I can get it right for my hands, my kitchen, my tools, my oven, my ingredients, etc,etc. Even using a scale doesn't make for a perfect transition.
So try again. I believe your flours are fine. I believe you need to listen to the dough on what it needs in terms of time. I also think that shaping was a major issue with that second bake. It needed to be reshaped before proofing but you may have sacrificed big bubbles as the dough was probably pretty fragile by then.
Happy baking!
Thanks!
About the 1st bake, sorry for the lack of pictures. The dough spread sideways similarly to the 2nd bake when I flipped the basket to bake it, but it had risen a lot more during the final rise, so it deflated as well. There was no flying roof at all the first time, it was just dense as you said. The bread was too acidic for my taste, but I presume it was due to the mature starter I used.
Regarding the 2nd bake, I did a 3 hour first rise at 77F. I did 5 turns of S&F (so 4x5), on turn every 30 mins.The dough was definitely firm. By the end of each turn I could lift the whole dough during the stretch. (Maybe I should add here that I was using Canadian bread flour for my recipes, so they tend to be higher in protein content than K.A. bread flour for example).
Yes I did the two bench tests and the final shaping before the final rise in the fridge.I did not reshape it before baking. The dough was relatively firm when I took it out and it had not risen nearly as much as the first time. I was expecting the cold dough to be firmer than the first attempt at room temperature and easier to score as well, so I did not find abnormal that it was firmer?
The fridge temps seems to be around F. I am not sure about the cycling temperature...
With the younger starter the bread was quite a bit less acidic than the first attempt. I was really pleased by the taste actually.
What do you think was the issue with the shaping during the second attempt? Why is the dough so stiff when I do S&F compared to the book? It did not seem as bad during the first attempt. Was it the more mature starter? Should the bulk (and final)fermentation(s) be longer when using a younger starter?
Thanks for your help!!
Sorry my fridge temperature seems to be around 41F. I also forgot to mention that although the dough was a lot firmer the 2nd time right remove I removed it from the basket, it still spread sideways quite a bit when I removed it...
Try another bake but with a few differences.
Get the levain to the proper stage before using and time the bulk fermentation according to what the dough needs and the final proof, also.
Review shaping on youtube. Make sure you re-shape if the dough becomes slack.
If your final dough is still very acidic, you may need to look at how you maintain your starter. Here is where I would like Lechem to add his knowledge. I am very casual with my starter and maintenance. It works for me and I never have or want a sour or acidic bread but it does make it more difficult to transfer knowledge to another person.
Also, a shorter bulk fermentation and not overproofing should greatly improve the flavor.
I am not sure to follow what you are suggesting compared to the 2nd attempt, since I was able to use the levain at the proper stage for the 2nd attempt (20% increase in volume, floating in water).
For the 1st attempt, I did a 3 hour bulk fermentation at 82.5F, and I did a 3 hour bulk fermentation at 77F for the 2nd attempt. I did a 3.5 hour final rise at 77F for the 1st attempt, and a 9.5 hour final rise at about 43F in the fridge for the 2nd attempt.
Thanks!
Regarding fermentation time and proofing time:
Ask yourself: At what point in the fermentation and proof is the dough ready for the next step? Do not look at the clock. Look at the dough.
So try another bake and use the levain when it is ready (the float test is well regarded), proof to 75-100% volume increase, portion and round the dough and rest 15 minutes, shape, proof until puffy but still with some spring (finger poke test), slash and bake as previously described.
By all means try the cold retard but it would be useful to know what the temperature swing is in your refrigerator. Ideally you should have an underproofed loaf when you remove it from the refrigerator and finish the rising when coming to room temp. I would be concerned the dough would need reshaping after a long,cold proof and then you may sacrifice the big bubbles with the extra handling.
My preference is actually do a cold retard as part of the bulk fermentation, remove from the refrigerator to finish the bulk fermentation, shape, proof at room temp and bake. This works especially well with 100% whole wheat loaves.
When you do a bulk fermentation in the fridge, when and how space out in time do you do the S&F? I considered it when I read the book, but it seemed much easier to be able to fit a cold final rise in a 24h schedule compared to a cold bulk fermentation, due to the 8h rise of the levain prior to the bulk fermentation.
An 8h cold autolyse in parralel to the levain rise as described here http://tartine-bread.blogspot.ca/2014/01/guest-baker-chad-robertson.html seemed quite appealing to me. Have you experienced with that?
So many paths to good bread!
My cold fermentation was done AFTER the dough was kneaded to windowpane-a different ballgame from a S&F technique. I believe the separate autolyze incorporated into your chosen method is a good path for you. It should achieve the full hydration of the whole grain, full development of the starchy gel and a gluten network and flavor from the natural fermentation of the grain by its natural company of yeast. It also allows you to shape well prior to the final proof so no more flying roofs!
Carry on!