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Dough is not rising, but starter is! Why??

cnascime's picture
cnascime

Dough is not rising, but starter is! Why??

Hello,

I'm working on a recipe for a neapolitan pizza dough and tried this one:

800g flour (this is the strongest local flour I could find, and had good results so far)
460g water (57,5%)
60g starter (7,5%)
24g salt (3%)

total hydration: 59%

However, the dough isn't rising. I even tried using 1.5% of salt and it didn't rise either.
By the way, I bulk fermented the dough for about 36 hours and the temperature was always between 20-25 C. 

First I fed my starter, which took 4 hours to double in size. I mixed the water with the starter, and the flour with the salt. Then, I mixed both together and kneaded just enough to combine. I left the dough for 30 min to autolyse, and then kneaded until smooth. I stored the dough in a closed plastic container and let it rise. 

I can't understand why my starter is doubling in size when i feed it, but the dough isn't...

 

(EDIT)

 

I tried another recipe and It finally worked.

1) Started with 20g of starter + 20g of flour + 20g of water. Waited 4 hours until doubled.
2) Took the 60g of starter above, fed it again with 60g of flour + 60g of water, and waited 4 hours.
3) Took 150g of starter, mixed with 150g of water and 150g of flour to make the sponge. Waited another 4 hours to double.
4) Added another 150g of flour to the sponge and 6g of salt, kneaded until smooth, and finally baked after 4 hours.

So the final recipe would be:

300g of flour
150g of water
150g starter
6g of salt

Is it possible that my starter is not strong enough to be used in small quantities?

 

Best regards

morgancl68's picture
morgancl68

It is a very small percentage of starter - the first thing you could do is increase it.  You can also start with a short autolyze (combine the water, leaven and flour and let it sit for a bit, 10-20 minutes) then add the salt.  Finally, the salt percentage is a bit high.  It may be that the combination of a small starter percentage and high salt is a problem.  That being said, there are many people here with many more years of experience than I, so lets see if their are any other good ideas!

cnascime's picture
cnascime

Thanks for the answer Morgan! Even when I used 1.5% salt (which is pretty low) the dough wouldn't grow. I'll try to add the salt later, as you said. How much starter do you think I should use? I'm afraid using too much starter could make the pizza dough too sour and also weaken the overall gluten.

joc1954's picture
joc1954

When did you feed your starter last time before using it for making pizza dough?

Happy baking, Joze

 

cnascime's picture
cnascime

Hi Joze! 

My starter is only 2 months old. I always feed it right before using it to make the dough. This time I fed it, waited for it to double in size (which took 4 hours) and already used it. 

 

Best regards!

phaz's picture
phaz

I would increase starter percentage. More starter = faster fermentation, which should help keep the sourness down.

cnascime's picture
cnascime

Will do that phaz, thanks!

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

57% sounds rather dry for a strong flour.  It is doable but might be the reason the dough is taking so long.  Try kneading the dough with damp hands and circulating the food and yeasts around in the dough.  Your hands and the action will help warm the dough.

Also let the starter reach maximum peak or just about, before adding to the dough recipe.  And as others suggested, increase the amount.  What temp is your water?  Might want to start out with warm bath temperature.  Stand the dough covered in a draft free location.  

cnascime's picture
cnascime

Counting the water of the starter, the total hydration is around 59%. The flour is not that strong, since is designed for Pizza. It's stronger than all purpose, but a little weaker than Caputo 00 flour, which can hold up to 63% hydration. The dough is a little sticky with this hydration, but still easy to handle. I always feed the starter before using and wait for it to reach is maximum peak. I will try to use more starter and also work with warm water for a test. Thanks for the answer Mini oven!

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

the dough to rise, taste it first (just for the info) and then work in some moistened instant yeast, a good tablespoon to get it risen before the dough breaks down.  Don't bulk rise but wait for the dough to relax before pre-shaping  and shaping for final proof.  

cnascime's picture
cnascime

I tried another recipe and It finally worked.

1) Started with 20g of starter + 20g of flour + 20g of water. Waited 4 hours until doubled.
2) Took the 60g of starter above, fed it again with 60g of flour + 60g of water, and waited 4 hours.
3) Took 150g of starter, mixed with 150g of water and 150g of flour to make the sponge. Waited another 4 hours to double.
4) Added another 150g of flour to the sponge and 6g of salt, kneaded until smooth, and finally baked after 4 hours.

So the final recipe would be:

300g of flour
150g of water
150g starter
6g of salt

Is it possible that my starter is not strong enough to be used in small quantities?

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Please include amounts of starter, water and flour along with temperatures and procedure.  The more detail the better.

cnascime's picture
cnascime

I believe my starter is only 3 months old. I feed it once a day, always at 11 pm. I usually measure 30g of starter, discard the rest, and mix in 30g of white flour and 30g of water. The temperature is usually 70 degrees or higher, and the starter takes about 4 hours to double in size. I keep it in an air tight container now.

sfsourdoughnut's picture
sfsourdoughnut

IMHO, I find that, when feeding a starter on a 1:1:1 ratio (starter to water to flour), I have to feed every 4-to-6 hours.  So feeding once a day means the starter is experiencing quite a bit of die-off in the culture, having run out of food 18 hours prior and then having nothing to survive on.

Feeding every 12 hours would be about a 1:4:4 ratio (starter to water to flour), so 10g starter fed with 40g water and 40g flour.  I don't know what the ratio would be for a 24 hour schedule, but my guess would be closer to 1:12:12, as the more yeastie-beasties there are to feed (increasing in number over time) the more food they will need to survive.

 

 

cnascime's picture
cnascime

That makes a lot of sense, thanks a lot!

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

for 24 hrs.  I would call that minimal existence maintenance.  Without refrigeration, it should be fed more or more often.  Continued underfeeding will slowly decrease yeast over time.  I suggest that with the next build for a loaf, before adding last 150g of flour and 6g of salt, pinch off 20g of the dough  to continue as a starter.  Feed it twice or more flour daily to keep the yeast numbers high and perhaps feed twice daily as well.  

You should see significant improvement in the starter in several days.

cnascime's picture
cnascime

Thank you, I will try feeding it more often!