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Lots of Questions about my roll recipe

DefaultRollMaker's picture
DefaultRollMaker

Lots of Questions about my roll recipe

First, I'm typing this from my phone while at 3:30am between making dough at work. I apologize for any typos, grammar mistakes, or issues in formatting.

 

I work at a restaurant that makes dinner rolls in house. We previously had someone hired solely for rolls that would come in part time to make them. They eventually moved on but was using their own recipe. When they left, I became the default baker and recreated the roll recipe from what little notes she left and what I had seen.

 So my situation is that of someone with not too much experience. We've been able to get by with not too much trouble since then. But at the start of the year we got a lot more business and it's been non-stop. I've now been made almost a full time baker here with only one or two shifts a week spent not making rolls. To that end, I feel like I need to understand what I'm doing a lot more in-depth than I have been.

 First, I'll show you my recipe and describe my process. Then I'll get into my questions. I understand I'm asking a lot, so I don't expect to get all the answers here.

 

Recipe:

5qts water

20tbs saf-instant yeast

55 cups short patent flour (from a somewhat local mill)

16 eggs

2 cups melted butter

4 cups sugar

12 tbs salt

 

Process:

1) add sugar and yeast to warm water, allowing to dissolve. Then adding lightly whisked eggs, melted butter, and salt. 

2) after mixing for a while, I add 30 cups of flour and let mix (with the dough hook) until most of the lumps are gone. I then add 10 cups, allow to mix, add 5 cups, allow to mix, then do the same in smaller amounts for the remaining cups of flour. Because I'm not using bakers percentages. The amount of flour varies from batch to batch.

3) I put the dough into a large bowl greased with olive oil and cover with a towel. I let it rise until it is doubled, then fold (pulling each 'side'). I let it rise again and usually fold a second time. After its doubled in size again. I then form into rolls. While forming rolls, I cover my hands in olive oil and squeeze out smooth balls. Usually 6 ties by eight columns per pan, getting three pans per batch.

4) I let raise at room temperature and then bake in a convection oven (with fan speed set to 'high') at 325F. Usually I cool for 10 minutes and then rotate all of the pans and cook for another 3-5 minutes.

 

First, I know I should convert the recipe to baker percentages. I don't currently have a scale that would make it easy or accurate and am working on getting one. Second, I am using a 20qt(I think) stand mixer. Third, from my understanding, this is a very wet dough compared to most. 

The resulting rolls are good. Their texture is decent, taste is usually enjoyed, and they go well with the food we serve (steaks, salmon, fried chicken, etc...). I just can't help but wonder if there are some tweaks to the recipe I could do to improve texture a bit and the taste. I'm looking for a bit fluffier in texture and maybe a slightly sweeter taste.

One major question I have is about mixer length and baking temperature. I got by feel and look to figure when I should stop mixing. This can be hit or miss, as you might imagine. Sometimes I get pulled away and it mixes longer than it should. I have a timer function but am not sure how long to set it for. The fact that the dough is different from batch to batch, even if the differences are somewhat small, doesn't help. Any tips? Or do I just need to get an accurate scale and determine it via trial and error?

And my baking temperature. We use a convection oven. For a long time I would cook at 350F with high fan settings. Sometimes this would result in rolls that were too dark but still doughy. I switched to 325F and it seems to have 'fixed' the issue. However, most recipes I've seen call for 375F or so, and much longer cook times. I guess they're for home ovens, but am I doing it wrong? Should I turn the fans to low and cook at a higher temp for longer? If like to avoid over cooked tops and doubt centers.

 

Also, I've been thinking about replacing some components. I've read that honey is great for making sweeter rolls, as a replacement or partial replacement for sugar. I've also read that using buttermilk can do nice things for the texture of bread. But is that so for rolls? Would it help give a softer texture? And about the butter. Would it be better to soften rather than melt?

We use buttermilk, honey, and butter in other recipes so we have it all in large amounts. I plan to experiment some, but experienced opinions are welcome before I do.

I'm also wondering why the dough is so wet. As in, why would a recipe be developed like this when everything else I've read is no where near this wet. I don't really want to change that part of the recipe, though. Its convienent when it comes time for forming and it actually produces nice rolls (in my opinion), I'm just interested in the why's.

 

If you feel that pictures would help you help me, I can provide. 

 

I apologize for the long post that is somewhat open ended and probably impossible to answer all at once. If you feel there is a better place for these sorts of posts, please let me know!

Thank you I'm advance.

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

Because you're running a restaurant and getting good results I don't wish to give advice on altering the recipe. You don't want to have a disaster on your hands and I would prefer a professional to advise you in this matter.

There are some tweaks I would do that doesn't mean changing the recipe as such. Just a slightly different method:

1. Keep just enough water back to dissolve the salt in.

2. Dissolve the yeast and sugar in the remaining water.

3. Add the salt water, butter and eggs when the dough is partially formed and then continue mixing.

My thought process is as follows... This keeps the yeast and salt apart till it's mixed in the dough. Fats interfere with the absorption of water and gluten strands. Starting the dough without them (giving the flour time to absorb the water), then adding the eggs / fat and carrying on mixing till full gluten formation is a good method.

clazar123's picture
clazar123

From King Arthur Flours website:

SPECIAL PATENT

12.7% Protein.50% AshMalted, Enriched

This "short patent" is a classic spring wheat bread flour milled from the center of the wheat kernel resulting in high protein and low ash. A good fit for hand or machine production. Provides good tolerance and oven spring and is ideal for hearth breads, pan breads, and buns. Also works well for yeasted breakfast pastries.

I wasn't sure what the flour was so this is what I found. I am also NOT a prof. It would be nice if Anand or Gerard would hop on for this.

This is an enriched dough so Lechem's comments are valuable. You want to give the flour granules time to absorb the water and gluten strands to develop. Coating them with butter before that happens can result in more density and somewhat like a soggy pastry consistency.

Bakers percentages would help you tremendously. It might be worth a few hours developing the conversion.

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/15704/baker039s-percentage-spreadsheet

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/5604/excel-2003-simple-dough-scaling-spreadsheet

 

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/4635/dough-calculator-spreadsheet-available

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/23277/multi-stage-recipe-manager-msrm-excel-spreadsheet

 

I entered "spreadsheet" into the searchbox and these were just a few links that popped that look right for you to explore. I hope it helps.

Good luck!

 

deblacksmith's picture
deblacksmith

In all of my baking and roasting for large church dinners in a commerical convention oven I have always used (and been told to use) the low fan speed for cooking.  What the high speed fan for?  Cooling the oven with the doors open to so it can be used as low temperature to hold food for serving.  Also the general direction for a commerical convetion oven is to use 25 degree lower temperature than a standard oven and also assume about 25 percent less time.  Ohers may use the high speed, I don't.

If I was baking your rolls I would use 325 to 350 and low speed.  To keep from a doughy center use a instant read thermometer and reach at least 195 F, 200 F is better.

Get a good scale - it is a must.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

converting the recipe with some details.  Then the recipe can be tweaked.  Until it is established and converted, it will be hard to nail down and exact recipe and tweaking will be difficult.  First the scales.  

Take a notebook page and in it write the recipe ingredients down the left side of the page...  make a column for  3x   a column for 1x then a column for results of recipe math.   Then a blank column for corrections or %

  • Water, easy direct conversion.  5 Quarts = 4.732  litres or grams.  
  • Weigh three cups of flour, the way you would scoop and measure now to establish a average estimate of the amount of flour  add them up (write down) and divide by 3 to get one cup (note it) and then multiply by 55 to get total weight in flour.     Lets say for example that one cup ends up weighing 128g.   128g x 55 = 7040g  a little over 7kg of flour   So your new scale will have to at least weigh the bowl, that much flour, plus 5 Q water  4732g or almost 5kg water  so the scales should be able to handle at least 15kg.  If you use a larger cup or have a heavier cup, the flour weight my go up to 8 kg  and you may need a scale that goes up to 20kg.  The scale should be able to weigh down to 5g.  Down to 1 gram even better.    Naturally this makes it more expensive.  I'm surprised the kitchen doesn't already have a scale you can use.     Either in grams or oz or a choice.  You can also get by with a scale that only weighs up to 10kg but will have to weigh each in separate and cannot weigh the entire amount of dough if desired. 
  • Weigh several unshelled eggs to get an average,  divide by the number of eggs to get the weight of one egg.  Eggs will change weight with age and how they are stored.  So if you are always using fresh eggs, make sure you weigh fresh ones for what ever sized eggs you normally use.  Take weight of one eggs and multiply  by 16.
  • Yeast...  weigh out 3 times a tablespoon of yeast, add them up and divide by 3.  then multiply that by 20 to get the total.
  • you can see the pattern.... weigh three and take the average...

Once you have weights to the ingredients the relationships become apparent and we can help you tweak and round off in the direction you'd like to go.  You might want to check the local library for some of the books mentioned here for beginners to get the basics.  Look for text type books instead of cookbooks.  There are a lot of discussions here too in the archives.  Search: Beginner books  or text books.  Nice thing about the library is access to great books without having to invest heavily.

Mini

pmccool's picture
pmccool

It may help to see how variations in flour weight can affect dough characteristics.  Since the formula is entirely in volume units, I converted it to weight units.  One version assumes 125 g/cup, which is what I typically get when the flour is stirred, then gently spooned into a cup, and leveled.  The second version assumes 160 g/cup, which is more typical if the measuring cup is simply dipped into the flour container and then leveled.  In this formula, the difference is almost 2000 grams, or a shade over 4 pounds. 

Depending on how the flour measurements are handled, it’s no surprise that you are seeing variations from one batch to another.  Using a scale would go a long way toward reducing or eliminating those variations.  The flour itself may be another wild card, depending on the consistency of the product from your supplier.

 

Original Volume

Weight (Flour @ 125g/cup)

%

 

Weight (Flour @ 160g/cup)

%

Formula

Quantity

Units

Quantity

Units

  

Quantity

Units

 
          

Water

5

 quarts

4741

 grams

68.96%

 

4741

 grams

53.88%

Yeast, instant

20

 tablespoons

240

 grams

3.49%

 

240

 grams

2.73%

Flour, short patent

55

 cups

6875

 grams

100.00%

 

8800

 grams

100.00%

Eggs

16

 each

800

 grams

11.64%

 

800

 grams

9.09%

Butter, melted

2

 cups

454

 grams

6.60%

 

454

 grams

5.16%

Sugar, granulated

4

 cups

800

 grams

11.64%

 

800

 grams

9.09%

Salt, table

12

 tablespoons

219

 grams

3.19%

 

219

 grams

2.49%

          
  

Total:

14129

 grams

  

16054

 grams

 

 

The examples assume 50 g/egg, which is fairly consistent with what I’ve been seeing for large eggs after removing their shells. 

Salt levels are rather high.  Salt is more typically in the 1.5-2.0% range for most breads and rolls. 

If you want the rolls to be sweeter, you could bump the sugar levels higher.  There’s a Portugese Sweet Bread recipe I like where the sugar is nearly 15%.  Substituting honey would affect the flavor (perhaps in a good way) but would also bring a small percentage of water and increase the stickiness of the dough.

Buttermilk would be (for my tastebuds) a good addition.  You will want to experiment by using a combination of the water and the buttermilk until you find the blend you like best.  That might be a 60/40 or 70/30 or some other proportion.

Mixing times will affect dough characteristics.  From other formulae I’ve seen, a 10-minute total mix time seems fairly typical.  You could start with that and then increase or decrease to gauge whether the resulting texture is more or less to your liking.

It sounds as though you have found the sweet spot for your oven in terms of temperature and time. 

I’d change the process just slightly, since you are using instant yeast:

  1. Scale dry ingredients (flour, sugar, yeast, salt) and mix for 30-60 seconds, until uniformly blended.
  2. Add water and eggs.  Mix for 4 minutes on low speed.
  3. Add melted butter.  Mix for 2 minutes on low speed and an additional 4 minutes on medium speed. 
  4. Proceed with the rest of your usual process

Best of luck.

Paul