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Deconstructing Muesli Bread

bread1965's picture
bread1965

Deconstructing Muesli Bread

Hi Everyone!

I'm looking for some "crowd sourced" bread help! I'm in Toronto and there's a remarkably delicious "Swiss Raisin Muesli Bread" that's sold at the St. Lawrence Market. It's actually beyond delicious, and I've long wanted to learn how to make it. I'd like to try! Before the questions, here are some pictures.

 

So here's what I believe I know to be true:

Weight - 500 grams

Exterior - rolled in oats, sunflower seeds, brown flax seeds, yellow flax seeds; I don't think anything else

Interior - dark raisins, light raisins (much more moist than the dark ones), brown flax seeds

Smell - no sour notes to be able to tell that it uses a natural starter over yeast; but this is a commercial production loaf not an artisan small batch so I'm not sure what they use. I would use a natural starter. Nutty and sweet gentle smell. Definitely rye influenced smell.

Now here's what I don't know, but think could be in it..

Flour - I think it's a blend of white, whole wheat, whole rye, but then if you look at the pictures there are yellow flecks.. I've never baked with semolina flour, but it makes me think of the pictures in the first Tartine book that has a recipe using semolina flour. What amounts would you use of each? If those yellow flecks aren't semolina, what else could they be? But then again, why use semolina flour in a bread like this?

Raisins - what do you think the light coloured raisins are soaked in? They're so moist they might be treated somehow. Maybe they're just soaked in water.

Sweetness - would you think they'd add honey or something to it? I once made date muffins that required me to warm soak, then puree the dates and raisins, into the recipe. It kind of reminds me of that flavour.  I'm wondering if they did something like that with the raisins here. But if they pureed raisins, then the crumb would be darker in colour. So I don't think so. Maybe they soaked the raisins in plane water and then used that water as the water for the dough? This makes more sense and I'll try that.

Next steps - how do I make it? I'm not experienced enough that I could make this from scratch "eyeballing" it. So I am asking you for some help please! Here is what I think, can you advise?

Levain -  I would build an active levain with the following ratio: 1 part active starter; 4 parts white flour; 1 part whole wheat flour; 4 parts water.  And the night before I would also soak the light coloured raisins in water. 

Bakers percentage math - have never built my own recipe, but may as well start now. For a 500 gram loaf I think it works out to:

white flour - 40% or 200 grams (AP or bread?)

whole wheat flour - 20% or 100 grams

whole rye flour - 20% or 100 grams

semolina flour - 10% or 50 grams

water - 70% or 350 grams (from raisin water) (how do I know what hydration to use? I'm guessing)

salt - 2% or 10 grams (even for this sweeter loaf I think this should be the salt %)

raisins (both) - 15% or 75 grams

brown flax seeds - 10% or 50 grams

Levain - 20% or 200 grams of levain (is this too much and will create big holes in the crumb?)

If i understood what I read about bakers math, the levain percentage should be the flour in the levain as a percentage of the total flour weight in the recipe. So that would mean my 200 grams of levain, has about 100 grams of flour so 100/500 is 20%. As I'm starting with a 1:2:2 starter I know it's not exactly correct that it's only 100grams of flour, but I think that's how it's done. Correct?

Not included in the recipe is the weight of external oats, seeds in which I'd roll the final dough.

Process would look like:

- saturday morning feed an active starter to build the levain, and soak raisins;- 6 - 8 hours later autolyse the flours and water (warm) for at least an hour;

- then add salt and levain, mix well to incorporate and then let rest of 20 minutes;

- incorporate raisins and seeds;

- stretch and fold over every half hour, three times and leave on counter covered;

- once dough has doubled some hours later, shape into a loaf;

- role shaped loaf in sunflower seeds, brown and white flax seeds, and oats;

- put into a sealed plastic bag in fridge overnight, then bake next morning

Ok. That's it from me this morning.. any comments, corrections, thoughts, advice?

In advance, and as always, thank you !

bread1965

 

 

 

pmccool's picture
pmccool

My first thought was that they might be some coarse polenta but they have more of a rounded appearance.  

As to sweetener, perhaps honey or agave syrup or even maple syrup (Toronto, right?).  The crumb isn't dark enough to suggest molasses. 

I think you are on the right track.  It will take some experimentation to get your bread dialed in and it will be a fun project. 

Paul

bread1965's picture
bread1965

Paul, I went back to the picture in Tartine that I was thinking of. I've taken a picture of it from my copy of the book and posted it below. I was mistaken - it is polenta in the recipe, and looks more like what the muesli bread I bought looks like. I don't think it's sesame seeds. While the pictures I posted could make you think the shapes of the yellow bits sort of look roundish, they're not. They're more like the polenta bits in the Tartine picture to my eye. But why would they put polenta in muesli bread?? I'm confused by that idea.

As to the honey or agave - good thought. It cold be. But the bread has a real raisin flavour. Maybe I'll add a few drops of honey to the water when I soak the raisins.

Thanks for your feedback!

Arjon's picture
Arjon

It's hard to detect when there's only a small amount in a loaf with numerous ingredients, but you can get an indication if you add some to any relatively straightforward loaf you're used to baking.

Lazy Loafer's picture
Lazy Loafer

Here are a couple of thoughts, based on your photos and discussion as well as my experience making my own Oatmeal Raisin bread:

  • I do soak the raisins, and add a bit of the raisin water to the final dough. Most of the water, however, I use to soak the oats, oat bran and wheat bran
  • If you are going to add flax seeds, soak them first or they will sop up a lot of the water in the formula
  • I use maple syrup in my raisin bread, which does add to the colour. I also add cinnamon - ditto. I like a fairly sweet raisin bread, as do my customers!
  • Check out some muesli recipes for additional insight into what to add to the bread
bread1965's picture
bread1965

Good ideas all around. I didn't think about soaking the flax but that seems like a very good idea.  Would you also soak the oats that I would roll the final shaped loaf in? Thanks in advance!

nmygarden's picture
nmygarden

Sounds as though you're on track to meeting your goal. The bread looks wonderful. Soaking the raisins made me wonder if this one may be a good candidate for leavening via yeast water? It won't impart sour notes as a SD starter may, and it helps provide a good rise and lightness to breads containing lots of whole grains and add-ins, such as fruit and seeds.

Best of luck and please keep us posted on your progess!

bread1965's picture
bread1965

That is a very good idea.. using raisins to create yeast water! Hmm.. I think I'll try to get to a good loaf using my starter first, as I'm trying to figure out enough variables. But once I've done it a few times (or many more) and feel like I have it, I'll give it a try with raisin yeast water.

I'm traveling this next week and weekend, but when back I'll give this a try and at some point over the next few weeks give this a try and post pictures..

Thank you for the advice!

drogon's picture
drogon

You could have googled it and gotten the ingredients:

Ingredients: unbleached wheat flour, water, raisins, vegetable oil, whole and ground brown flax seeds, organic whole grain rye flour, yellow flax seeds, honey, raisin juice concentrate, Dried Apple, yeast, sea salt, durum semolina, rolled oats, sunflower seeds, brown flax seed, Poppy Seeds, bacterial culture. [B1220-010811]

Allergy Advisory: May Contain Walnuts, Sesame Seeds and Soy.

This is from their website:

http://www.stonemillbakehouse.com/010~English/020~Healthy_Breads/020~Healthy_Artisan_Breads/060~Swiss_Raisin_Muesli/

At least I'm assuming that's it - it has the same name and location (St. Lawrence)

Interesting the list - if they're in weight order (as they are in the UK) then there's more yeast than "bacterial culture", also more salt than oats, sunflower seeds, etc. which seems a but odd to me.

However there you go. The yellow bits are likely to be either the yellow flax seeds or dried apple.

-Gordon

Jane Dough's picture
Jane Dough

As noted by Gordon , the ingredients are listed.  In reading through them, I wonder if the method is similar to Hamelman's Swiss Farmhouse bread that uses the raisin water (fermented over several days) as the main leavening agent. The small amount of culture (assuming ingredients are listed in order of %) could be added just to add a flavor dimension to the loaf.  It also would have the added advantage of acting as a primary/secondary/equal? leavening agent.

Whatever the method is, the loaf does look enticing.  I am adding that to my list of "must try". Thank you for posting that. 

bread1965's picture
bread1965

Gordon..

Yes, it's the loaf I have. I thought about using google, but  thought I'd try to figure it out..

That said, looking at the ingredients (yes, they need to be listed in order of weight in Canada) I'm thinking this is a commercial loaf, so however they do it they likely don't go through the process of using fermented raisin water..  I'm also not sure what bacterial culture would be or means.

And I'm not sure the ingredient list is current to the loaf I bought. There wasn't any poppy seeds that I could see. I also don't think the yellow bits are dried apple because they are so small and barely visible if you don't really pay attention to them. So unless it was made into a puree, they're not in it either.  So maybe it's coarsely ground yellow flax - that's what I'll try. I think... oh' and lastly, about the order of ingredients, I just noticed they have more oats than sunflower seeds, completely not the case - on the outside of the loaf it's the exact opposite. But all around, good clues..

Thanks again!

drogon's picture
drogon

Yes, too easy :-)

However.. Things are not always what they seem... I'm a commercial baker, but don't resort to some of the tricks used by bigger bakeries. Formulating recipes for mass production isn't always easy - and reverse engineering them isn't easy either. Poppy seeds were lists 2nd last. A smallish loaf might have 4-6g of salt in it, so try weighing out 4g of poppy seeds. It's not a lot, so easy to get lost in the mix. (you might wonder why they bother then!) Apple is often used as a sweetener rather than an ingredient in its own right - the raisin juice concentrate is almost certainly used as a sweetener too.

The culture - very little in there - possibly even added for flavour and they might get the long ferment by simply using less yeast.

So to make it at home... How about a basic 70% white/30% wholemeal base. Add in some fruit/seeds - raisins, sunflower seeds & flax seeds & dried apple pieces (prob. no more than 15% of the flour weight) and a small bit of honey (10%).  Mix, then use a small fraction of yeast and a tablespoon of starter and enough water to make a good dough. Leave it overnight. Shape in the morning, roll in your favourite muesli mix, leave to prove and bake..

For a more fruity taste you could blitz some raisins (or other vine fruit) in a blender with a little water. That'll add to the overall sweetness too. Add that to the liquid to make up the dough and see what happens...

-Gordon

bread1965's picture
bread1965

Thanks Gordon - good information, perspective and advice! Much appreciated!!

Last question - how much water would you use? Your suggestion to use "enough water to make a good dough" is too vague for someone that normally follows recipes like me. So I'm thinking I should try about 65-70% hydration. Would you do something much different?

Many thanks!!

drogon's picture
drogon

I just make it up as I go along :-)

But yes - 65% hydration is a good starting point - depending on your preference. Commercial breads are typically not that high hydration, but be aware of things you add that might soak-up the water. Linseeds will after a time, as will oats and other grains.

-Gordon

Matt H's picture
Matt H

If I were making muesli bread, I would start with muesli... To me, that means oven-toasted rolled oats, rye flakes, and possibly flaked wheat. 

I also kind of like to soak dried fruit in a little booze. Port would be nice.

 

bread1965's picture
bread1965

Good Morning.. I've been tied up and unable to try out the Muesli recipe above until this weekend, I'll post the results however it turns out. I'm also making a loaf of Tartine whole wheat this morning and something struck me as I put it all together. The amount of levain in the Tartine bread (single loaf) is 100g, while for the muesli bread I'm using 200g. So not having made up my own recipe in this way before I think I've screwed up by putting too much into the muesli bread. While the Tartine loaf will cold ferment in my fridge overnight I'm thinking that adding less make sense as it will slowly develop. Given how much I've added to the muesli dough, I'm thinking I should not wait overnight or I'll have a big blob on my hands. I'm thinking I should not let it cold ferment overnight. I think I'll stretch and fold for three hours - every half hour with the tartine dough - and then shape, proof and bake. I think I'm going to sacrifice flavour development, but won't lose the loaf due to over fermentation given the amount of yeast in the 200g of levain. Am I thinking about this correctly? (the recipe I used is above in my comments for a 500g loaf).

PS. I haven't made bread in about two months and left my while starter alone for a long time unfed. I brought it back to life this week with three feeds 24 hours apart using 1:2:2. It looks good and is very active. But it seems to me to be very liquid/runny and not as thick as usual. Lots of bubbles, this morning even bubbly foam along the top. Any ideas on why the change from normal?

As always, many thanks for your thoughts!

bread1965's picture
bread1965

Well, I'm not sure how to save this dough. I autolysed around 10 and after adding the seeds/raisins and 30 minute fold-overs the dough is too wet. It doesn't appear to have any gluten forming. My tartine loaf is shaped and looking great. But this one has me puzzled. Any thoughts? Much appreciated!!

KathyF's picture
KathyF

Well, you could try working in a little more flour. Maybe try Trevor Wilson's technique for mixing wet dough: https://youtu.be/zgz0oAhgwyg

bread1965's picture
bread1965

Well, on the positive side, I'm learning.. :)

First the pictures..

 

The main problem I had in making this bread was that I couldn't develop any gluten. It was too runny. I ended up adding an additional 50g of ww and 50 rye flours in an attempt to give it some body. The recipe I used is the one I made through guessing above. This loaf in the picture is only half of the dough - I ended up throwing out the other half. I couldn't get the dough to hold it's shape.

The crumb is dense, sour smelling (and mildly so in the taste) and more savory than sweet. I also ended up adding some agave during the process to help sweeten it up a bit. It's not edible.

I think the biggest problem is that I added far too much levain. In my next attempt I'm going to dramatically reduce the levain, and work backwards the weights so that the final bread only weighs 500 grams. I'll post when I figure this out. I also think that I used too much whole wheat flour. I think I'm going to try this next time with mostly white, then a little rye and even less whole wheat. Comparing the pictures, I think that make sense.

In the meanwhile, any advice or thoughts are much appreciated! Thanks!

bread1965

 

KathyF's picture
KathyF

Couple of thoughts. If it was me, I would use half strong bread flour and half whole grain flour. And, going by the ingredient list, I would reduce the percentage of sourdough and and use maybe 1/2 teaspoon of instant yeast. This would still allow for a longer fermentation, but give it a bit fluffier texture.

bread1965's picture
bread1965

I'm thinking I'll forego the whole grain to get the basic recipe down more clearly. What do you think of this:

400 g all purpose or bread unbleached

260 g water (65% hydration)

60 g raisins (soaked only for an hour before added to dough)

50 g active starter

20 g ground brown flax

20 g honey

5 g salt

2 g instant active yeast (1/2 teaspoon)

I think this is my next attempt unless you see something off. I'm also thinking that I'll autolyse and then mix everything together, stretch and fold for 3 hours every 1/2 hour, then shape and place in the fridge over night (no longer than 12 hours).. then bake

How does that sound? Thanks for your advice! bread1965

KathyF's picture
KathyF

I think that would work. Though, if you are looking for a sweeter bread I would double the raisins and honey. I use 36 grams of honey in my sandwich loaf recipe and it doesn't taste particularly sweet to me.

bread1965's picture
bread1965

Thanks Kathy.. what's the size of your sandwich loaf? This loaf would be about 500g. You use 36 grams of honey for how big a loaf? Thanks, !

KathyF's picture
KathyF

My sandwich loaf has a total of 500 grams of flour.

bread1965's picture
bread1965

Another weekend, another attempt.. first the pictures..

I used 450g bread flour, 25 grams ground brown flax, 25 grams whole wheat flour. Autolyse for 30 minutes with 350 grams 80 degree water. 70 grams of light/dark raisin mix - soaked for about 30 minutes. 35 grams agave. 90 grams levain.

It's better than last week, but not really edible. I baked it on a stone for a total of 45 minutes at 400 degrees. Had to get another loaf in the oven or could have left it longer to get darker.

Smell and flavour is more like the bread I'm trying to make. The weight of the final loaf was almost 1000g - the original was only 500 grams, so too big. The crumb is wetter than it should be and I'm not getting a good rise and can't develop enough surface tension.

I'm starting to think I should use instant dry yeast instead of levain and I should reduce the hydration..

Any thoughts or advice?   As always, thanks in advance!! I'm not there yet, but hope that after a few more bakes to lock this in..

Bake happy.. bread1965

KathyF's picture
KathyF

I calculate that before you add the soaked rains, agave and levain that your hydration is 70%. The wet fruit, liquid sweetener and levain would increase the hydration. I agree on lowering the hydration. I would also add 1/2 teaspoon of instant yeast in addition to the levain. Don't dump the levain. It also looks underproofed. I would let it proof longer.

bread1965's picture
bread1965

I was thinking I'll try 65% next time. I'm also going to try and eliminate the use of levain on the next round for two reasons - one to eliminate the slightly sour notes in the bread, and two to control the liquid volume a bit more. Once I have the bread figured out, then I'll reintroduce the levain and figure out that element in isolation of all other variables. As to proofing, you have a good eye. While this attempt held it's shape a bit better, I found I had trouble creating tension on the surface of the dough that would hold - it would go slack after sitting for a while. I also don't have an oval basket, so I had the dough sitting in a linen cloth with some books on either side under the cloth to create a channel to help hold the shape. That was what I came up with from having the dough spread out more than it did. The finger test results were ok, but you could tell the dough wasn't properly developed/proofed.

And the final dough is a bit dense and gummy to the taste. But I was wrong last night, it is edible. I've toasted some for breakfast just now and it's taste is actually pretty good and much closer than I thought from a small bite last night. At least now I'm at the point where I can start eating my (toasted) mistakes with this bread! A few more tries and I think I've got it! Thanks again for your help!

clazar123's picture
clazar123

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/20163/great-whole-grain-cereal-loaf

THis might be helpful-for comments or recipe. The most important concepts are to allow the branny bits time to soak up water and to then develop the starchy gel that forms the crumb matrix. Bread flour or vital wheat gluten are not usually necessary and can make a bread chewier/less fluffy, even tho it will make the bread higher. That part is personal preference.

Also, I noticed you are baking at 400F for the whole bake. In my experience, these multigrain breads bke off better if you start at 400 for the first 10-15 min and then decrease to 350-375. They really need time to evaporate the water from the crumb and I have never had a problem getting a nice bold color-tho that may depend on the oven,I'm finding, after recently baking at different locations.

As for sour notes from natural levain, I make a preferment the PM before using 1 cup flour of choice and 1 cup water with 1-2 tablespoons natural levain. In my kitchen, it develops perfectly overnight and is mixed the next morning. Timing is temperature dependant-the warmer the kitchen-the faster it develops. My natural levain breads are never sour tasting.

Be persistent and develop the bread you want to have. You have come far already.

bread1965's picture
bread1965

Thank you for the link. I'll read through it carefully. I'll also lower the temp as you suggest. On my first attempt I did soak the flax and indeed did get that gel. I didn't know if it was a good or bad sign. Do you know what that happens or how it helps / hurts the bread? This time around I didn't soak the seeds, just the raisins for about 30 minutes. I have pasty flour in the freezer (no rising agent in it). I wonder if using that would help or hurt vs bread as I don't have AP in the house and would rather use what I have before buying more flour. Thanks for the feedback, and thanks for any additional thoughts!

clazar123's picture
clazar123

Flax , indeed, releases a gel when soaked and in gluten free baking helps to trap gas to raise the GF dough and make it fluffier. It does contribute to wheat based bread but that is not the "starchy gel" I am speaking of.

In bread baking books we always talk about kneading to "develop the gluten" when we are actually developing the starchy gel that fills the spaces between the gluten strands. Gluten develops if you just mix water and flour. Wetting the gluten strands activates them just fine (ever heard of NoKnead bread?)

 What I am talking about with "starchy gel" is the thin membrane you get when you stretch a window pane on properly kneaded dough-no matter how it is kneaded. It is the same concept as when you were a child blowing bubbles. The gluten is the bubble wand which anchors the soap bubble  (the paste made by the starch from the interior of the flour mixing with water ) on the edges. The yeast makes gas which is trapped by these bubbles and in the oven heat  the gas bubbles expand. Then the starch/protein of the dough  sets solid and holds the bubbles in place.

When you add solid objects  (nuts,seeds,etc) to this kind of dough, you need to make sure you have developed the dough's ability to hold these objects  without bursting the bubbles- by making sure it has enough starchy gel to pull a window pane. I usually add things nuts,seeds,fruit pieces to the dough AFTER I have kneaded it to the proper stage. That is how they got that lovely crumb between the fruit and nut chunks in that first set of pictures.

You re so close! Keep going!

bread1965's picture
bread1965

Intuitively I understand what you mean. I hadn't thought about it this way, but it makes so much sense.

So in a Forkish/Robertson FWSY/Tartine method of developing the dough through stretch and folds then, how does that work? Yes the gluten will develop in time. But with those methods you don't really get a window pain type of dough development. In other words, I'm not sure enough "starchy gel" would develop to hold up the weight of the seeds/nuts/ raisins.. my attempts to date have involved no true needing of the dough..

Thinking about this then, I'm wondering if this makes more sense:

- mix the flour, ground flax (as they aren't whole and lighter shouldn't affect the starch development?) , water, instant active yeast (as I'm going to substitute that for levain until i lock in the bread), and no salt (as it's sweeter)

- well incorporate these ingredients and then diverge from the fold/stretch method and actually need the dough for a full 10 to 15 minutes to develop a window pain..

- let rise to double size

- incorporate the seeds/raisins and then let the dough proof and bake..

I think this makes more sense based on what you wrote. What do you think? Many thanks - very interesting insight. I'm grateful you shared this with me.. Will continue to share my results until I figure this bread out!

bread1965

bread1965's picture
bread1965

Thank you to everyone that's provided advice. I'm closer to my goal, but not there yet.

This is what I tried this week: 200g bread flour; 25g course ground brown flax; 1/2 teaspoon of active dry yeast; 135g water; 10g agave; 30g raisins. I mixed the flour, water and yeast together and kneaded the dough for 10 minutes to get good development - window pane / starchy gel (per clazar123).  Once the dough was developed I added the agave, the raisins and the grounded flax (i had not thought to add it with the flour at the beginning. The dough was getting torn by the sharp edges of the ground flax, but i was able to pull it together and it came out well in the end. The raisins were soaked in water for only about 20 minutes. Once the dough ball was finished, as it was sticky I coated it in canola oil and put it into a covered bowl. I let it double (about an hour later), I punched it down and shaped it into the loaf you see and let it proof for about 45 minutes. I baked it at 400 for ten minutes, then another 30 or so minutes at 350. When I took it out the dough had just reached a temp of about 200.

The pictures below and then some comments/ questions follow:

I'm getting there, but it's not really like the bread at the top of his thread.

My conclusions:

- it's drier than it should be;

- i don't know how they developed that nice brown crust  - mine is too light and if I just cook it longer I'll burn the crust and dry it out further;

- it needs more raisins;

- it's more of a "bread" than a sweet moist bread if that makes sense;

- I cooked it on a pizza stone over parchment, the crust is dry like a bread loaf.. too dry, the original above is softer to the touch with some give - could it be the oil that is listed as an ingredient on the manufactures website?

- my crumb is dry and firm; not flaky and tender like theirs..

- the base flavour is there but it's a bit too mild..

- eliminating the use of levain for now is helping get zeroed in on what's going on with everything else.. in the end I'll switch back after I understand all the rest of the the parts..

What can I try next? I'm not sure. Do I add oil? do I increase hydration to 80% from 65%? I have some pastry type flour in the freezer (no rising agent in it) from a local mill, maybe that will help make this more delicate? 

 

Thoughts? Thanks in advance to all .. bread1965

clazar123's picture
clazar123

That is the best looking crumb so far. Big difference when you develop the starch!

As for the other issues,you really are almost there. The loaf you are trying to emulate is an enriched loaf (it has fats) which will have a totally different crumb than an un-enriched  loaf made with FWSY (flour,water,salt,yeast). I realize you don't want a brioche but a little fat will make a noticeable difference. Add a tbsp or so of veg.oil.

As for the crust, you can add a little additional sugar in the form of honey (which will also give a richer flavor than agave or sugar), or white/brown sugar. Another crust browning strategy is to brush a little milk or sugar water on the dough right before you put it in the oven.

Flavor- The raisin water,dried apples and  more raisins will all help that. Soak the raisins for 1-2 hours and use that water as part of your liquid. For a more robust flavor, soak a few tbsp of raisins overnight and then puree. It will also darken the crumb. Add some salt. It helps bring out the flavors.

The best change I see is the proper dough development. Once you get that down, it improves everything. I pretty much add all the small, ground ingredients (flour,sweetener,oil,liquid, gr.flax) to the dough to knead. I might hold back the salt until I get a nice window and THEN add the salt. Salt can make it harder to develop the starch. My problem is I have more often than not forgotten to add it. Great looking but bland-tasting loaves that needed some salted butter to taste right. After it is well kneaded, I add anything chunkier.

The next best change is I think your baking temps are better.

Be aware that once you start adding WW or rye or change this to a naturally levained dough, you may find it is a whole different learning curve. Hydration ratios may need to change,rising/proofing behaviour is different and the feel is very different. Each ingredient has different requirements. Adding muesli to the dough (or is it just on top?) will also change the dough characteristics.

But first things first, keep going with this. Keep posting. The last loaf looks wonderful.

 

 

 

 

 

bread1965's picture
bread1965

First, let me appologize if this is starting to look like an obsession?! But I'm getting there.. another week, another attempt at replicating a swiss raisin museli bread.. I know, I know.. so close!

This week I solicited some additional advice from fellow fresh-loafers.. here are the results, then the comments..

These slices are toasted.

 

First let me say that the taste on this bread was as good - and close to the original - as any I've made so far. As to what I did: The water used with the flour was raisin water (soaked 60grams of whole raisins for the recipe in water for three hours). At the same time I in a separate bowl of water I added 25 g of ground flax and 10g of whole flax. To this same bowl I ground up 2 tbsps of raisins. The idea was going to be to use the water from the flax/ground raisins together to add to the flour. But the taste of the whole soaked raisin water was so much nicer than that of the ground mush, I went with the former rather than the latter.

To make the dough I mixed 200g bread flour and 140 grams of raisin water - autolyse for an hour; then I added 1/2 teaspoon of instant yeast and incorporated; then I incorporated 5 grams of salt; then I let it rest for 20 minutes; then I added a tbsp of canola oil and after mixed in, gave it 30 slap and folds; thirty minute rest; then 30 more slap and folds. 

To this I strained the bowl with flax and mushed raisins, and strained the soaking raisins, and added it all to the dough. This is where I hit a wall. I tried to incorporate all of this rasin/seed/mush to the dough with slap and folds but it was too hard. It was almost like I was adding too much to the dough and it couldn't well absorb it.

My dough prior to adding all this stuff was in good shape and developed very well. It fell apart at this stage and I couldn't really slap and fold the dough back into shape despite my best efforts. The first picture above shows what it was like at this stage. I gave it a chance to rest and tried again, but no luck. In the end I shaped it as best I could with some additional flour sprinkled over it so I could shape it, then I tried to proof it. It didn't really proof well. So I baked at 450 for 15 minutes with steam and another 25 minutes at 425.

So what I'm trying to figure out now is how to better incorporate the seeds and raisins and keep the gluten in place to be able to shape a loaf properly.  Any advice? Thanks!!

PS - I forgot to add the honey, but it wasn't needed. The raisins made the loaf sweet enough.

PSS - This loaf was way too small. It weighed only 345g after being cooked. I think I'll start with 400g of flour next time and adjust everything else accordingly.

clazar123's picture
clazar123

A great, but long, video on slap and folds.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dUZ0O-Wv0Q&feature=g-all-u%C2%A0%C2%A0%C2%A0%C2%A0%C2%A0%C2%A0

I would add the raisins and flax all at once to the dough and then do the slap and folds. You can develop a great dough. Easier to account for all the water, also.

The only ingredients I hold back to add at the end of a dough are nuts or dried fruit (no extra moisture).

 

bread1965's picture
bread1965

I enjoyed that. I'm pretty comfortable with the slap and fold. I pretty much had the dough where it needed to be. The problem is that when I added the seeds, mush and whole soaked raisins together after the dough has been formed, and gluten comes together that the amount added about 90 grams of raisins and 35 grams of flax to 200g of flour and 140 grams of water, the dough is overwhelmed by the amount I'm adding.. and it can't keep itself together. I think next week I'll make a video of it if I can't pull it all together.. that's the heart of my problem right now and I'm not sure how to over come it.. I guess I could reduce the amount of seeds/ raisins I'm adding.. One thought I had was to add the ground flax seeds to the flour before adding water - mixing flour/seeds together - that way I only have to add/incorporate the raisin mush and whole soaked raisins later in the process. That might be easier - assuming that the coarse ground seeds don't interfere with the gluten forming.. so much to learn!! Thanks for the support and advice!

bread1965's picture
bread1965

Hi Everyone..

I just can't figure out what I'm doing wrong.  Tonight I decided to take another stab at making the swiss raisin muesli bread. The recipe is essentially what I did in my last bake above. This time I made this loaf starting with 400 grams of flour (instead of 200 grams above) as I thought a larger size might make it better and easier to incorporate the raisins and ground flax. Hydration was 70%. Ground flax was 10%. Soaked raisins were 15%. (those numbers are a little less than above).

The slap and folds were great. Very good gluten development - I felt like acqua-man with webbed fingers of dough.. I was very happy with that process. When the time came, I started to incorporate the raisins - I did so in about three batches.. A total of about 60 grams of plump soaked raisins.. It took some effort, but not much as I think about it.

Then the problem - the ground flax. I ground it a bit more than last time and kept it to 40 grams total. As flax does, it was goopy but I tried to strain it.. I tried to add it in thirds too.. The flax really absorbed water and looked like a lot more than 40 grams. But I tried to incorporate it and while it tore the dough abit, I could eventually get back into a good slap and fold firmer dough. But it required a lot more slap and folds than I would have liked.

I let the dough rest between raisins and the flax - about 20 minutes. And I let it rest after the flax another 20 minutes. Then I wanted to shape it. But it just wouldn't keep shape. I couldn't make it into a battard. I did my best, put it in a basket (it stuck as I flipped it out as you can see from the flap - not an ear attempt).

SO.. what should I do? How can I get it into a consistency to shape? Part of me thinks the wet flax is too wet and causing problems - an option might be to mix dry flax with flour at the outset and then let autolyse deal with them. But I'm just lost as to how to figure this out.. I'm just not able to shape it as a proper loaf, or create surface tension..

Any and all help would be appreciated!!

 

bread1965's picture
bread1965

Ugh.. just opened it this morning.. not edible.. the crumb is too damp and moist.. it's just not edible..

What have I learned this time? (a) too much instant yeast - when from 1/2 tsp with 200g dough to 1 tsp with 400 grams.. Don't want the air pockets so assume this is why. (b) I think i should reduce hydration from 70 to 65%. (c) I'm going to try to not soak the ground flax next time to reduce moisture. (d) too soft - should put in 1/2 tsp of oil.

Any and all help would be greatly appreciated! Thanks..

clazar123's picture
clazar123

 

Grind the flax seeds and add them to the dry flour at the beginning of making this dough. DO NOT try and hydrate them and then add the glop. Add the whole flax seeds (DRY) now or at the end after windowpane achieved. 

If you want to use raisin water as flavoring, then soak all your raisins in the recipe for about 30 minutes. Remove the amount of raisin you want to stay whole in the final dough. Set them aside and let them drain in a strainer so they are merely damp when you add them to the dough later.. They will be added at the  end after the dough is kneaded or S&F to windowpane. Allow the rest of the raisins to soak for several hours to mush. Blend,grind or whatever you do to get raisin water. Now add ALL of this to the dry flour mix before mixing. Mix.

S&F, knead or whatever you do to get it to windowpane.

WHEN you are at windowpane, pull the dough into a large rectangle (like when you make a cinnamon roll) and evenly spread onto it any solid additions like the soaked raisins, nuts, chunky seeds or dried fruit. NOTHING should be overly wet. Roll it up, knead or S&F a few times and they should be pretty evenly distributed.

Bulk ferment, retard, shape, proof, and bake.

**************************

Never try to soak flax seeds, chia seeds, psyllium, xanthan gum or guar gum before adding to bread dough. You want them to make their gel within the structure of the bread as they absorb the liquid in the dough as they are mixed. That way their structure is distributed.

 

 

bread1965's picture
bread1965

Clazar123 - 'a ha'.. in our starchy-gel conversation above I obviously didn't understand what you meant. You're wanting the starchy gel from the seeds - but not as developed outside the dough in a bowl as I'm doing, but developed from moisture absorbed by the dry seeds within the dough during it's development.. ! Now I get it.. and that obviously would limit the amount of water being absorbed too.. I know what to do now.. thanks for helping me through this.. when I get this done I'll fedex you a loaf! :)

 

bread1965's picture
bread1965

Clazar123 + Dabrownman + A BakEr  - first the pictures:

The short version is that hydration was 70% (350 bread flour, 245 water), 10% flax was rough ground and added to the flour before autolyse (1 hour), 10% raisins were soaked for an hour (didn't bother with raisin water), 10% honey, 1/2 tsp in instant yeast, 8 grams salt, 3/4 tbsp canola oil. Repeated slap and fold to no avail anytime in the process. I decided to just keep going with nothing to lose - in the last round after what seemed like 100 slaps last night I decided to throw it in the fridge and call it a night. I did think for a while it was going to come together, but it just didn't. This morning there were plenty of small air pockets in the dough. I tried to shape but there was going to be none of that - very sticky and slack. So I put some parchment in an oval basket, threw some rice flour on it, plopped in the dough and turned on the oven. Baked it on a stone at 450 for 15 and then about 20 at 425 until I got the internal temp to 210. Didn't bother with the exterior, nor steaming the oven.

Result and taste: obviously the crust is a bit dry as I didn't humidify the oven but that's fine; adding the dry flax (rather than soaking and adding later) with the flour made a very big difference; soaking the raisins less also made a good difference (I have both dark and light raisins and hence the "yellow' bits); crumb clearly came together much better, but at 70% hydration it's a very moist bread; nice amount of sweetness but not much (honey gives it a subtler taste over the raisin water).

Going forward: I'll reduce the hydration to 65% from 70% next time to reduce the crumb moisture; I'm hoping that a bit less hydration will let me create a proper windowpane and shape the loaf. Other than trying that I have no idea how to have the dough come together better. I'm thinking I should maybe reduce both flax and raisins down to 5% each - maybe that would help.

This was my last bake for the next two months for a bunch of reasons. I'll get back to this likely in September.. thank  you for your help along the way. I'm learning much from each of you and the process. I know I'm right around the corner on this bread. I hope to get it finally figured out in the fall! As always, any advice is appreciated!

Bake happy!

 

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

bread to be so dark on the top and so white on the bottom.  I still don't understand why you can't get the tiny amount of add ins to incorporate properly and not get the dough back in shape with the gluten intact either.  This is a pretty low hydration down at 70%.  very strange indeed.

This isn't an enriched bread made with a mixer  so a windowpane isn't at all required and there is no need to ever check for it.  It is time and water that create the gluten when doing a bit of slap and folds.

It looks like you got a fairly open crumb with an oven that is not right 0 which is a good sign.  You don't want to skip the steam when making bread.  It is what allows the dough to expand without setting the crust until the spring and bloom are done.

Happy baking 

I also don't know what the oil is doing in there? You for sure don't want to add it until the flour is fully hydrated after autolyse.

Get that oven checked out.

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman
dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

bread to be so dark on the top and so white on the bottom.  I still don't understand why you can't get the tiny amount of add ins to incorporate properly and not get the dough back in shape with the gluten intact either.  This is a pretty low hydration down at 70%.  Very strange indeed.

This isn't an enriched bread made with a mixer  so a windowpane isn't at all required and there is no need to ever check for it.  It is time and water that create the gluten when doing a bit of slap and folds.

It looks like you got a fairly open crumb with an oven that is not right 0 which is a good sign.  You don't want to skip the steam when making bread.  It is what allows the dough to expand without setting the crust until the spring and bloom are done.

Happy baking 

I also don't know what the oil is doing in there? You for sure don't want to add it until the flour is fully hydrated after autolyse.

Get that oven checked out.

bread1965's picture
bread1965

I don't think anything's wrong with the oven - but I could be wrong. I'll buy an oven thermometer when I'm back and test the temp. I pre-heated the oven at 500, reduced to 450 when i put the bread in, and then down to 425 after 15 minutes. It could be darker on top because it dried out (since I didn't add the steam). I didn't think about humidity to improve the oven bloom - of course. The bottom is white in the picture because I put some rice flour on the parchment paper before I loaded the dough onto it. As for the oil, it was a suggestion from clazar to get some fat in there to help make the crust darker, like the original. It also seems to make both the crust and crumb "softer" than otherwise if that make sense - or at least I perceive that's happening..

I don't get it either. I'm totally baffled. I think when I do it again I'm going to make a video of it, so you can see directly what I'm doing. I'm sure its something I don't even realize I'm doing. Otherwise I have no problem kneading some dough to get a good windowpane. This one's totally stumped me. But at least it was edible and pretty tasty today!

Thanks again, will connect when I'm back at it! Enjoy the summer bakes!

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

less open the crumb will be.  All you need is time and water to get the gluten structure formed - if you want a more open bread.  I think you crumb is plemtyopem.  Nothing sticks to near new parchment paper so no reason to put rice flour on it.  I say near new because I reuse PP several times until it just falls apart:-)

What makes bread brown is residual sugar that caramelizes at temperatures over 350 F.  Oil in the dough will improve keeping qualities and tenderize the crumb for sure.  I suppose that it might help to brown the bread too but it isn't necessary for that and not the usual reason to add it to bread.  I prefer breads that are flour, water and salt with SD  - no other things are necessary to get the dough to rise properly, brown well and get an open, soft crumb.  Nuts, fruits, seeds and aromatics are there to improve nutrition, change the taste, aroma, flavor and the texture.  

I do like olive oil on pizza and focaccia though - but not for browning - for flavor.  I think making sure there is residual sugar in the dough will brown it well enough.

bread1965's picture
bread1965

Dabrownman.. i was at work today thinking about bread and my muesli bread project and it struck me.. I think/wonder if the problem is that I"m making too little a loaf... I know this may be counter to the simple fact that 10% flax and 10% flax is still just 20%.. but I wonder if there's a critical mass - in term of absolute size and amount of dough - that's required for enough structure in the dough to be formed? I have a small window this Saturday to bake one more loaf before I take off for a while. I'm going to start with 1000 grams of bread flour and work from there - rather than the 200 - 400  grams I've been using in my various attempts... and keep all other percentages the same.. I'll make one big batch, but two loaves and see if it changes anything.. Lets see.. just a thought.. will let you know..

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

most always to make sure there is enough dough for the add ins Lucy forces into the dough:-)  I thin I commented before that you need to make a larger amount of dough.  The oaf I posted today has a large Buckwheat Toadie add in.  The thing to remember is that very few slap and folds were used and very few stretch and folds to the get the add ins in there too.  The crumb came out as good as one could want.  Having enough dough is what makes the add ins possible to get in there and still have the gluten formed the way it should be.

I'm guessing the next iteration of your experiment will be spot on!  Good luck -The best thing is that you have earned a lot about making bread in short order with little blood split along the way:-).

bread1965's picture
bread1965

Lets see how it goes!! Will let you know!

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

When coating a high rye dough that has no shape because of the high hydration,  I take a dish towel lightly flour it, sprinkle it with the seeds, then spoon on the dough to form a log.  Then use the towel to move the dough by slowly raising one side with the corners of the towel keeping the edge taunt between my hands.  By raising the towel the dough rolls into the seeds.  Switch sides if you need to and fold under one side of the towel to transfer to peal, form or paper.  

Another thing I've been doing lately is just to line a basket with parchment, drop in the dough, sprinkle with seeds and cover with a larger bowl or plastic bag to let it proof.  Then lift out the parchment, dough and all (no flipping of the loaf; up stays up) and set onto my baking sheet and score if I want to.  The parchment is stuck unto the sides of the loaf but holds it long enough in the oven to give it some body.  The parchment releases as the crust bakes with almost no lines.  

To keep the parchment in place while filling the basket, I use about 4 small wooden clothes pins on the edges.  Great little helpers.   :)   

I would go back to AP for a fluffy crumb and I might try a Tangzhong with some of the raisin soaking water.  I would peg the dough as 95% unbleached with 5% white rye with a good amount of oil...thinking more like butter in brioche.    

bread1965's picture
bread1965

Towel rolling seems like  good idea.. But I'm thinking I should be able to get some body in this dough given the original picture was scored with small bloom.. and as to parchment paper in basket trick, I've used that on this loaf and it's been a good trick to learn..

But I hadn't ever heard of Tangzhong, so I just googled it. Thanks for sharing that. I don't think that's done with the bread I'm replicating, but I'm definitely going to file this idea in the back of my mind and use it one day.. it sounds very interesting..

Thank you for your comments!

clazar123's picture
clazar123

It is an instant dough developer. Just like you add vital wheat gluten to instantly add gluten to a loaf, Tangzhong instantly adds starchy gel  to a dough. It works very well in whole grain doughs and is easy to do. Another tool in a bakers toolbox.

bread1965's picture
bread1965

What percentage of flour would you do this with?

 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

and cut back on the sugars if it tastes too sweet.  The 5% rye  and 5x the rye weight to get the soaking raisin water amount.  :)

bread1965's picture
bread1965

I meant how much of the flour would you use to make the Tangzhong roux? Say for an 800 gram loaf how much gets treated to great the Tangzhong heated gel?