April 24, 2016 - 2:00pm
score marks not opening, bread not rising during the bake
Hello TFL,
I am new to the bread making game, and I have been working on improving my Tartine Country Loaf. I still have a problem with the loaf not rising much during the baking process, despite my best efforts to get the proofing timings right. The crust is delicious, and the crumb tastes good, but is a bit chewey on the first day and by day 2, it is a bit too dense. You can see in the first photo that the score marks are not opening up very much, and in the second photo, the loaf is not rising much during the bake. Any ideas on getting a puffier loaf?
Process:
- 12 hours after last feeding, make leaven (~15g starter, 200g warm water, 200 g 50/50 white/wheat flour)
- Once leaven is ready (it floats), make dough (200g leaven disbursed in 700g warm water, 900g white, 100g whole). Rest 40 mins.
- Combine 50g warm water with 20g fine sea salt and mix into dough. Rest 30 mins.
- Every 30 minutes for 3 hours, stretch underside of dough over the top 4x, turning the bowl 90 degrees after each stretch/fold.
- Split dough in half, dust with flour and form two balls/disks (I'm getting better at this). Bench Rest 30 mins. (They spread out quite a bit during bench rest).
- Dust dough disks, form loaves and I place seam-side-up in towel-lined bowl (towel dusted in rice/whole flour mixture, bowl is quite shallow-problem?). Proof 2 hours (first loaf) and 3 hours (second loaf).
- Bake in DO for 20 mins at 500, 10 mins at 450, remove lid and bake for 20-25 more mins lid off.
The second loaf puffed up more than the first (last picture). The kitchen ambient temp is 65-70 degrees.
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Assuming you are following the BCB recipe and instructions and baking in a covered Dutch oven for the first 20-30 minutes.
Your loaf is sure flat. If the above assumptions are correct, this could be due to1) inadequate gluten development during bulk fermentation. It could be due to 2) insufficient bulk fermentation. It could be due to 3) poor loaf formation. It could be due to 4) inadequate lateral support for the loaf while proofing. It could be due to 5) over-proofing. Or, it could be due to any combination of these.
So, are you finding you have a puffy, light, bubbly dough at the end of bulk fermentation? (Sign of problem 2)
When you form the loaf, does it stay pretty round, or does it immediately spread out? (Sign of problems 1 and 3)
How are you containing the dough during final proofing? (problem 4)
Are you retarding the loaf overnight in the fridge? How long do you have the formed loaf at room temperature before baking it? When you poke the proofing loaf with a finger, does the hole you make fill in slowly? (Problem 5)
Again, if the assumptions are correct, I think that over-proofing is one of the problems, at least. Why? 1) dull crust (not shiney), 2) poor oven spring and bloom, #) that big hole on the right side of the loaf in the photo. All are common symptoms of over-proofing.
Hope this helps.
David
Thanks for the help, David! I have updated the original post to include my process. I'm basically following this: http://cooking.nytimes.com/recipes/1016277-tartines-country-bread
For problems 1 and 2 ... Which step is the bulk fermentation? Is that where all the dough is in one bowl, stretching/folding every 30 mins? I'm not sure about 1 and 2, maybe you can tell from the process I use?
Problem 3 ... I have gotten better at the loaf formation bit, and the formed loaves look pretty much like the pictures in Tartine Book #3.
Problem 4 ... I'm containing the dough in a shallow (4" high) mixing bowl (is this bad? I do not have bannetons)
Problem 5 ... I do not have the refrigerator space for retarding, unfortunately (half-size UK fridge).
Does the overproofing happen during the final proofing? I'm somewhat unclear about the bulk fermentation.
Thanks again for your help!
Nate
Definitions
Bulk fermentation is what happens between the initial mixing of the dough and dividing it into loaves.
Over-proofing occurs between forming the loaves and baking them.
Thanks for the additional details. From that information, I am wondering about 1) possibly needing a longer bulk fermentation. That is because, in your cool kitchen, fermentation is quite a bit slower than if your ambient temperature were 75-78dF. 2) possible over-proofing. Try the "finger poke test" next time. 3) I do suspect your bowls for proofing may be too wide. You don't want the loaves to spread out too much. You didn't explicitly indicate whether/how you were lining the bowls. If you are following the NYT instructions, that should work. You don't want the process of transferring the loaves from the proofing bowls to your oven to deflate them excessively.
The fact that you got better oven spring and bloom from the loaf that proofed longer argues against over-proofing and for deflation during the transfer as your problem or poorer loaf shaping before proofing in the first loaf.
David
It's not over proofing. Doesn't look underproofed to a fault, however. I'd still say bulk ferment for at least 4 hours. Shaping is perhaps a problem here, too. I agree with David about shaping and structure.
fletchnd, It would be helpful if you shared your formula and process -- so knowledgeable people like dmsnyder can help you troubleshoot. I'll try and help, too, of course. :)
Thanks! I've updated the original post to include my formula/process. Thanks for the tip!
i see 200 in the levain, plus another 50 with the salt, but no mention of any further water in the final dough.
Since you mention that you are in the UK, it may be that the flours don't absorb as much water as US or Canadian flours. That could leave you with a very slack dough, even if you follow the recipe faithfully. But not if there are only 250 grams of water to 1200 grams of flour. :-)
Paul
Hi Paul,
Indeed there is 700g warm water that the original leaven is mixed with before adding the flour to make the dough. I am in the UK, but I used almost all Canadian strong white flour. http://www.shipton-mill.com/flour-direct/canadian-strong-white-bread-flour-112.htm
A few weeks ago I tried an organic strong white flour, but the dough was very wet and sticky -- nearly impossible to form. http://www.shipton-mill.com/flour-direct/traditional-organic-white-704.htm
Thanks!
...are very challenging. I doubt anyone gets them right the first time.
You've been given a great checklist by David. I suggest you work through it - one point per loaf at a time - to see what improvements you can make. Best to start with No.5 since probably the majority of people's problems with loaves on TFL are because of over-proofing. It is very tricky with high-hydration loaves to know when precisely they are ready. Repetition is the key. It builds familiarity with a dough.
Paul is spot on about the transatlantic changes in the character of flours. I won't get too technical but you need to build confidence in adjusting the flour and water quantities yourself during the mix. Better to do the latter - start with a stiff dough and gradually add little sips of water until you're happy with the hydration level - because water is easier to adjust. This process is called double-hydration and there are loads of posts on TFL about it. But quickly, as a sidebar, by withholding some water until late in the dough's mixing, it's also helpful in developing good gluten levels which is something very hard to achieve in high-hydration doughs and something you might benefit from in this bread. Just use the search tool at the top of the page for more info.
I'm afraid Canadian extra-strong flour doesn't solve your problem since Tartine doesn't use that flour type in this formula. Hence Paul's point about the huge variation in superficially similar flours. I know that The Weekend Bakers had to adjust the hydration levels in their European version of a Tartine loaf.
Anyhow, if you work through David's list, I'm sure you'll come to grips with this challenge.
Some people probably have enough natural talent and/or luck to jump right into SD Tartine-style SD loaves without any experience baking less demanding types, I suspect most new bread bakers would be better served by starting lower down the learning curve.
I usually suggest starting with Lahey's basic no-knead yeasted AP (or BF) loaf baked in a dutch oven, which is much easier and more forgiving than Tartine-style SD recipes. If you're a quick learner, it won't take long before you learn and improve enough to be better prepared / able to handle them.
You mention that when preshaping the dough, after bulk fermentation, that you are experiencing a lot of spreading during the bench rest such that, come shaping, you are working with "disks" instead of boules. Given the short-ish bulk fermentation, to me, this excessive spreading of your dough indicates that the gluten matrix has not built enough strength. It sounds plenty extensible, but not elastic enough. You might consider adding several extra folds during the bulk fermentation to increase the elasticity of the dough such that by that end of bulk, the last set of folds has just begun relaxing. It might be that you want stretch/folds every 15 for the first hour and every 20 for the last two hours. This should give you 4 additional stretch/folds which should help to build a more elastic gluten matrix. Play it by feel and aim for dough that doesn't want to stretch out as much as it has been for your. Your bench rest time can be variable and is probably better determined by the relaxation of the dough than the number of minutes that have gone by. You want the preshape boule to be relaxed enough to stretch again, but not so relaxed that it's laying almost completely flat. Follow that up with a good proofing form that helps it keep a good shape, and you should see improved end results, hopefully.