September 15, 2015 - 12:24am
Flat whole wheat loaves
I've been trying various recipes for 100% whole wheat loaves using my own freshly ground whole wheat flour. So far I haven't been able to get anything to rise to a reasonable extent. Even my 50% rye loaves consistently rise more than the 100% whole wheat. I've been basing formulas mostly off of Peter Reinhart's formula for whole wheat hearth bread from his Whole Grain Breads book.
This last attempt used 28 grams of honey and no oil. It was a very sticky dough. It tastes great and is very soft but it didn't rise as much as I'd hoped.
Usually I'm only able to get a nice rise out of dough with 30% or more white flour. Can anyone recommend a formula for making tall round loaves with just whole wheat, water, salt, yeast, and honey?
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Could it be that the "freshly ground" is the key to the answer? I'm not sure where I read it (probably when looking for differences between bleached and unbleached flours), but apparently the flower needs some aging.
I found the same opinion here: http://www.thekitchn.com/food-science-why-some-flour-ge-81149
Here it is said that reducing the moisture of the recipe is recommended when using fresh flour: http://thewholetruth.org/Health_Wheat_FAQ.asp
Something here: (Sillymom on 30th Apr): http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/2834/bread-flour-bleached-or-not
I have a similar question about how much rise can one expect with a whole wheat/grain home milled flour bread?
Reedlaw, was the bread made with commercial yeast or soughdough starter? I wonder if this can create a difference as Reinhart's recipes allow either to be used.
because of the sharp edges of the bran. It may be that home milling leads to more "sharp edges" (just speculation as I don't mill grain at home) which means you are not getting proper gluten development. Without that you don't have all the structure to keep a rise. You already answered your question, "30% white flour" give you a nice rise.
I've tried both commercial yeast and sourdough starters. The rye bread I make also uses freshly milled rye and whole wheat in about a 50/50 proportion. That bread rises beautifully. In fact it sometimes over-rises and plumps over. I use the finest setting on my Hawos mill. Once I tried sifting a coarser-ground flour to emulate high-extraction flour. That bread rose a bit better. Ideally I don't want to remove the bran so that I have a true 100% whole wheat bread. It makes me wonder if breads sold as whole wheat are truly 100% whole or if they've had bran removed. Is it impossible to retain all the bran and have a nice tall loaf?
Regarding flour aging, I prefer to grind my own wheat because it's as fresh as can be. If I let whole wheat flour age won't some of the nutrients be lost or the oils start going rancid? I'm willing to try it as an experiment though. How long should it be aged?
Reedlaw, what type of recipe are you looking for -sandwich loaf in a pan, baguette or boule, or something else. 90% of what I make is 100 % home ground whole wheat, with flour, water, salt, and either yeast or a starter, though have just started playing with starters. I can't get the same spring as with white flour, but they are not flat. BTW, I do not age my home milled, I mill it and either use it right away, and store any unused flour in the freezer. I started adding a tiny amount of Vitamin C a year or so ago, I can't swear it gave me more lift, but I do usually add about 1/8 tsp to each batch I grind.
I'm making mostly boules and sandwich loaves. Reinhart's method combines a soaker and a biga but I've also tried stretch and fold techniques like Tartine's and Forkish's. The stretch and fold formulas typically have a higher percentage of white flour. Other than these two schools of thought, are there any other techniques for making delayed-fermentation whole grain bread?
I have that book, and Hamelman as well. I use the Reinhart soaker and biga method to make whole wheat sandwich loaves in pan, and they come out pretty well, though I have adapted the formula quite a bit.
To make a loaf of 500 grams flour of red spring berries
Biga
250 grams flour
210 water
1/4 tsp IDY
Mix until flour is completely hydrated - 1 to 2 minutes, then put in covered container in fridge - at least overnight, preferably a few days.
Soaker ( note that Reinhart makes this at the same time, and refrigerates as well, instead, I take the biga out of the fridge, and make the Soaker while the biga is starting to come to room temp. I haven't noticed a difference in taste, and speeds up the process since I use fairly warm water in making the soaker
250 grams flour
210 grams warm water
7 grams of salt
Mix until all flour is hydrated
Mix the biga and the soaker and add 7 grams salt and 1 3/4 tsp of yeast. If using a mixer, knead until you achieve a window pane, then add up to 40 grams of additional water ( if you add the water first, it may be hard for your mixer to knead such a wet dough )
Form into a roll to go into a loaf pan
Let rise,
Bake when ready.
Let me know how this works for you. I have been making this every few weeks for over a year, and have recently switched to a starter instead of yeast, but it is pretty good either way. The one big problem for me is that it is hard to judge exactly when it is ready to go into the oven. The poke test doesn't work that well for me with such a wet dough. Even if I let is slightly overproof or underproof, it is still not very dense.
barryvabeach, I'm trying your formula but I don't see the amount of water used in the soaker. Is it the same amount as the Biga making this a 84% hydration dough?
Reedlaw, sorry about that. Yes, water for the soaker is 210. Hydration is 92% once you add the additional water. I have actually gone higher and added up to 60 grams of water, it makes the bread less dense, but you really have to watch the timing on the proofing - fully proofed or over proofed leads to a collapse. With a little lower hydration, 92 %, it is a little more forgiving. It is actually a cross between Jason's ciabatta using Reinhart's approach, and then using a loaf pan to allow it to hold its shape.
barryvabeach, is there any bulk fermentation between kneading the final dough and forming into loaves?
Reedlaw, no, In the Reinhart method, the bulk fermentation occurs when you mix the biga and let it ferment in the fridge. I like letting it ferment a few days, though I think he says overnight at a minimum. Again, he suggests doing the same with the soaker. I made a few loaves side by side using that approach, and using a soaker made the same morning as the final dough and did not notice any difference in taste. Of course, home milled red spring wheat already has plenty of flavor. I use pretty warm water with the soaker, since it will be added to the cold biga, it won't overheat the yeast, and that speeds up baking day. BTW, I don't use any honey. It may be that I am used to the taste of the plain wheat, but I don't think it needs any honey.
barryvabeach, I tried your formula and it rose beautifully and the bread remained soft and moist for several days. I'm pleasantly surprised that your simpler method produces better results for me than Reinhart's method. I also keep a natural levain starter in the fridge so maybe I'll try one with that as well. Do you add yeast to the final dough when using the starter? If not, does it need to rise longer?
Reedlaw, I opened the page a little worried that it would not work for you. When I do the sourdough, I only use the starter for the biga ( and reduce the water and flour accordingly ) and use yeast for the final rise. I find that the biga gets a great flavor if it stays in the fridge about 3 days. I use the yeast for the final rise because this is a sandwich dough I make every 3 weeks ( once sliced, I freeze the leftovers ) and do the final assembly Saturday mornings, and don't want to wait around all day.
I have also made this in as a boule, and it does not get the lift that you would get using white flour, but it is not dense.
I made both a large boule and two sandwich loaves with your formula. The boule rose fairly well. I would love to get a loaf to rise like this one. Mine was wider and flatter but much better than in the previous picture. I'll try again and post pictures tomorrow.
Reedlaw, I have only made a few loaves of bread with white flour, but in general, they get a lot more oven spring than white or red whole wheat. I have read numerous theories. Some suggest to sieve out the larger particles and discard, some say to sieve them out, then add them back in, under the theory they stay together and have less negative impact. Others suggest that one problem with whole wheat is that the timeframe between just right to go into the oven versus over proofed is 5 minutes ( I think my biggest problem is finding the point between under proofed and over proofed ) some suggest that VWG will lengthen the time frame between ready and past ready to go into the oven, ( I tried VWG again tonight on a recipe for Healthy Artisan Breads in 5 minutes, but didn't get much rise), and of course hydration is a big factor. Of all these, hydration is the easiest to experiment with since the signs of over hydration are pretty clear ( convex top ) but most of the rest it is pretty hard to tell . On that recipe, I have gone as high as 80 grams of extra water, making for a 100% hydration loaf, and got good results, though again, if you get close to being 100% proofed before it goes into the oven, it will not work out well, so I have dropped back to 40 grams to avoid that problem. You may want to start playing with the water to get an airier loaf.
One thing I noticed about your formula is the relatively high salt content. 7 grams in the soaker and 7 grams in the final dough is 14g out of 500g flour or 2.8%. Reinhart's formula for whole wheat hearth bread uses 1.9% salt. I'm going to try reducing the salt in the final dough to 4 grams and see how that goes.Do you use the finger dent test to tell when it's proofed? My trouble with that method is I'm not really sure how fast/slow it should spring back.
I over-proofed these a bit but they still turned out nice. I didn't add any extra water to the final dough but these turn out so sticky that they are hard to manage in a banneton. Even lining the basket with lots of oil and flour they tend to stick and then collapse when I flip them out. Only the middle boule didn't collapse. The others would have been taller if they hadn't stuck. The boules didn't brown too much but they already reached internal temps of well over 91 C.
Reeedlaw, the extra salt is because while the method is based on Reinhart, the underlying recipe was drawn from Jason's Quick Ciabatta - which calls for 15 grams of salt for 500 grams of flour - let me know how the reduction in salt affects the taste and the loaf http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/2984/jasons-quick-coccodrillo-ciabatta-bread
The paned loaves look great. I should have mentioned that I generally don't score such a wet loaf. In a banneton, it is pretty tough to prevent sticking, another option is to spray a dutch oven pretty well with Pam or other non stick spray, then let the boule do its final rise in that and throw it straight into the oven.
I am no expert in the finger dent test, but to me, it is like the old joke about the tourist who asks a fellow passenger what stop he needs to get off at to visit an attraction, and the passenger says it is easy, just watch me and get off two stops before I do. With the finger test, I can be pretty sure it is overproofed - the dough just sighs and there is no resistance. I have not had any luck judging the spring back before that . Also, remember to put your finger in some flour first, or it will just stick.
barryvabeach, the reduced-salt version tasted as expected--a bit milder flavor with less saltiness. I think the full-salt version had a bit softer texture although I'm not sure if that can be traced to the salt.
I've been wanting to use cast-iron but I wasn't sure if I could let the dough rise inside first. I thought the idea was to pre-heat the cast-iron and then transfer the dough from a banneton to the hot iron pot. The transfer won't be easy with such moist dough. In a hot iron pot the dough doesn't stick even without oil. Does it work the same in a cool pot?
Reedlaw, a few posters here did back to back testing and found no difference between preheated dutch ovens and cold dutch ovens. I have used enameled cast iron and aluminum dutch ovens and cast iron combo oven and all have worked fine going in cold. With a cold pot, you certainly have a greater chance of sticking, which is why I use a nonstick spray, the same as when you make a loaf pan dough.
I use silicon bread molds without spray and never have any sticking problem. I also have a couple cast-iron sandwich molds that I have only used hot after letting the dough rise in a separate container. The problem was the container size was never exactly the same as the cast-iron and when transferring the dough tends to go in lopsided and not come out as nice as when risen in the same container.
I'm looking for a better oil mister because the one I have stopped working after a few months. It's a Japanese-made glass container with a plastic pump screwed on top. When it did work I sprayed it on the bannetons and it worked better than now when I brush oil on with a silicon oil brush.
One technique I have tried successfully is to line a container, like a banneton, with parchment paper. Use that to rise your bread, slash and then use the paper as a sling to place in the hot dutch oven. Minimizes degassing from plopping the dough into the dutch oven and prevents sticking.
I've been working lately with lower hydration doughs, so what I do now is rise my dough in a banneton and then flip it over onto a piece of parchment, slash and then use the parchment as a sling to place in dutch oven.
I tried the cold cast-iron method and it was able to come out with only a little sticking. This time I tried a 30% rye variation. They came out very nice with a good amount of rise. I sliced one open before it was cool and found a large empty space in the middle which may be due to not cooling completely.
rye.jpg
Reedlaw, now you have me confused. Did you put a loaf pan in a dutch oven? By the way, they look pretty nice - did you use red berries or white? If red, you may want to take the lid off the dutch oven a little earlier to get a little more browning - if white berries, they look perfect. Hope you enjoyed the taste.
barryvabeach, no I used both pans and cast-iron without lids. The loaf on the far left was in the cast-iron. It browned more because it's higher and closer to the top heating element. Where I live (central China) they don't differentiate between red and white wheat. They harvest in the Spring and I'd say the color is closer to white. They taste great. Thanks for the formula, it works better and saves more time than Reinhart's. Makes me wonder why his has so many extra steps.
reedlaw, thanks for clearing that up for me. When we say cast iron, usually we are talking about a dutch oven or combo, so you start the loaf in the DO with the lid on to trap in steam, and then take off the lid part way through to help in browning. This is used for boules more often than loaves. BTW, I have used preheated DO, cold DO and warmed - for warmed, I set it on my range on a low heat to get the bottom up into the 200 to 300 F range. Much less danger than loading dough into a 450 F DO, but with the hope that I would get less sticking than a cold DO. Results were inconclusive.
I'm not after a hard crust with these sandwich loaves so I don't mind using the cold cast-iron. One problem I've been having with the larger loaves is a hole forming in the middle. Is this due to a problem in the shaping?
Yes, if you get just one large hole, that is a problem with shaping. If you are making a sandwich loaf, have you tried shaping it like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_3zBaKkxMY . I don't slash mine because the hydration is from a ciabatta recipe, and ciabatta's are generally not slashed.
Here is another video on shaping https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWsY8IaoAV8 around minute 4:30. Obviously, your dough is a higher hydration, but that is the principle.
My shaping technique is similar to that in the videos, although I didn't pre-shape the dough as in the first video. I learned mostly from Reinhart's books and the Tartine book. Here is my latest attempt:
hole_bread.jpg
With these tall loaves I consistently get a large hole or two in the center. I don't use any extra flour when shaping. There is no apparent "seam" where the bread was folded. Rather the crumb gets larger towards the center around the hole.
reedlaw, it certainly seems like a shaping issue to me, though I have to say, the crumb looks pretty airy to me away from the hole. It seems like one large bubble of air is trapped in the middle. How does it taste? If the taste is fine, we just need to work on the shaping.
It tastes great. Do you mean when I fold the top down or bottom up that air gets trapped inside? I use the same shaping technique for smaller loaves and none of them gets a hole inside. This formula rises quite a lot. My feeling is that the hole is formed while the dough is rising in the cast-iron bread mold. Maybe it's the tall, narrow shape. I will try the pre-shape technique next time to see if that helps.
Reedlaw, I can't say for sure what happened, but it looks like when you are doing the forming - assuming your are rolling it up like a jelly roll, there is a large bubble in the dough which does not get popped, and the gas that rises below that just adds to the bubble. It is also possible that he loaf pan is contributing since it is so narrow. You can try to make it as a boule to see if that helps. I often have a bubble at the very top of the loaf, but since it is just sandwich bread for me, I am fine with that.
barryvabeach, It tried the shaping method from the first video and it worked well. There was no air bubble at the top. The crumb was only a bit larger where the hole used to be.
Now I want to get an even softer texture. Any tips for getting a very soft texture using just flour, water, salt, and yeast?
Reedlaw, in general, the more water, the softer the texture. What is the hydration you are using now? I have gone as high as 100 to 105% hydration, though it is more fragile, and can overproof more quickly than the recipe I gave you.
barryvabeach, I used the minimum amount of water from your formula. 210g in the biga and 210g in the soaker. So I guess that's 84%. At this hydration it seems really sticky and hard to shape already so I was afraid to try adding more water. I have now tried this formula with two types of wheat and the red wheat was much more gooey and harder to control than the white wheat. I can't roll the dough like in the shaping videos. Although the dough feels very wet it doesn't stick to the table so I don't need any extra flour.
Reed, Surprised about the difference in red and white, here we have hard white winter wheat, and the red wheat comes in either hard winter or hard spring. I usually get the red hard spring and use that to make the loaf you did. I use the trick of keeping my hands wet when I handle the dough so it won't stick to me.
I usually use the local white wheat here (China). I have never seen red wheat here but I recently brought back some from the States to try and compare the two. It seems another trick to softer bread is proper kneading. I'm going to try the intensive kneading along with higher hydration.
Reed, this is from a different recipe, but I thought you would appreciate the shape of the bread in this photo. I will let you know that I have tried this recipe about 10 times now, and this is the first time I got the timing pretty close and got some good oven spring. It is a 100 % white whole wheat, home milled, sourdough. It is only 226 grams of flour, but I used a small amount of flour because I have had so many fails before.
I tried barryvabeach's formula at 100% hydration. The dough is hard to shape and control and it just plops into the bread pan.
I didn't watch it carefully and burned the tops:
The bread is indeed very soft.
I want to get something like txfarmer's 100% ww results but with only whole wheat flour, water, salt, and yeast. Will that be impossible without some enrichment? If some extra moisture is needed, I would prefer adding honey.
https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/71297/20221020-simple-100-wholewheat-bread-clas
Yippee
Reedlaw, how did it taste? Was it a softer texture than the 84% hydration? You may have to play a little with the hydration to get the right balance, and remember that the timing may get faster as you increase hydration. You have definitely come a long way from the loaves posted at the beginning of the thread. Note that txfarmer added an autolyse step, you might want to try adding that step as well, before you resort to adding oil. Honey will make it sweeter, though I find I don't need that with home milled flour.
barryvabeach, it tastes a little salty even with the reduced amount of salt. The flavor is good. The inside is much softer but the crust is still too hard. I'd prefer a tighter crumb. This time it rose very quickly and air bubbles appeared at the top of the shaped dough.
You might want to play with the cooking temps as well. A lower temp should result in a softer crust. Yes, as you add hydration, it may proof more quickly.
I tried again at 92% hydration and 4% honey. The result is similar to the 100% hydration pictured above. Still hard to shape and the crumb is loose with large holes in it. It did get a nice rise and tastes great with soft texture. If I'm going to get rid of the hole problem I need to use less hydration. But if I want it softer I guess I'm not going to get it with just flour, water, salt, and yeast. I tried to pay attention to the stages of gluten development using the windowpane test. I feel I got it to the best stage when it's the most elastic and strong at the same time. I was really inspired by txfarmer's results but I'm not sure how I get there from here.
I tried it too and it's nice to have a recipe less rigid than Reinhart's are. I never baked a whole wheat sandwich bread without enrichments or with such a wet dough. The former made for a much more spongey, less fragile dough, and the latter was annoying during shaping but didn't seem to stop the final loaf from getting pretty tall. This bread was filled, sides, inside, and bottom, with many little even holes, a very pleasing result in a ww sammie bread recipe. The crust was crisp in a way that notably melted away at the bite. Wow. Still has a weight or substance to it but all whole wheat breads do in my experience. I alllmost think I could get away with baking this for a theoretical husband who theoretically likes Wonderbread for his sammies.
Thanks very much for sharing!
One thing that can make an improvement: sift out the bran, scald it, and add it back after the scald has cooled down. This improves the structure and flavor for almost no effort.
TomP
Here are photos of the 100% WW Workday bread from "Bread" 3rd edition
https://photos.app.goo.gl/DwvXkMsWCrZo1fwh7
Formula at Workday 100% WW Formula 80% hydration
I baked another one today at 85% hydration with a full 20% of walnuts and cranberries. It was a good deal lower but had a more open crumb and was delicious.
100% WW @ 85% Hydration w/ 20% add-in's photos
Here are photos of the 100% WW Workday bread from "Bread" 3rd edition
https://photos.app.goo.gl/DwvXkMsWCrZo1fwh7
Formula at Workday 100% WW Formula 80% hydration
I baked another one today at 85% hydration with a full 20% of walnuts and cranberries. It was a good deal lower but had a more open crumb and was delicious.
100% WW @ 85% Hydration w/ 20% add-in's photos