The Fresh Loaf

A Community of Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts.

Delayed Oven Spring

cidilon's picture
cidilon

Delayed Oven Spring

Hello friends,

I have an issue to which I have not found an answer yet. I am attempting to make the tartine country bread and am running into a strange issue. Previously I had some problems with the dough itself but since, I have resolved it. Now, I am sticking to the exact recipe in the tartine book up to the point of baking, as I lack a dutch oven at the moment. When I take the dough out of the proofing baskets and onto the peel, the dough has a tendency to spread out a little. This is understandable as it is 75% hydration, now what follows is what has me stumped. The dough seems to have a delayed oven spring. It only begins to rise after being 10 or so minutes in the oven and at that point my scores have already set. The bread springs really well at this point and because the scores are now already set, I end up getting a blow out somewhere along the bread. Would this issue be eliminated with the dutch oven? Perhaps the steam that I make in the oven is not enough. Last but not least, how fast should a sour dough loaf oven spring. I am used to quick spring of commercial yeasted breads, which usually open up and bloom fully by the time the sourdough just begins to rise. Thanks in advance!

davidg618's picture
davidg618

I can only give you my observations with my loaves. However, one of my baking goals was "consistency". My  sourdough loaves now behave exactly as every other has done for the past two or three years.

I use a baking stone, preheated. I create steam, starting before loading the loaves, despite the fact I loose a lot of moisture opening the oven door. I want the steam water boiling vigorously before loading the loaves. In the first minute after loading the loaves the cuts begin to open rapidly. Within three to four minutes the cuts have spread near their maximum, but the exposed dough continues to expand. On one-pound loaves by about eight minutes the oven spring is over. (I steam for only 10 minutes on 1 lb. loaves.)  With one-and-one-half lb. loaves I steam for 15 minutes. Oven spring appears to be completed in approximately 11 minutes. My sourdough loaves range between 67% and 72% hydration depending on the type bread I'm making. 72% loaves--baguettes and foccacias--have a narrower cross-section and behave essentially the same as the plumper one-pound loaves.

Thinking about your description I've come to two hypotheses. Either you're not generating enough steam--you suggested this, and I agree it may be the culprit--or the 75% hydration may, due the heat capacity of water, delay the oven spring; i.e., it may take longer to raise the temperature of Tartine dough to the sweet-spot for oven spring. I don't, routinely bake breads with that high a hydration so I can't comment further.

I've tried Robertson's Tartine bread, but quickly returned to breads modeled after Hamelman and DiMuzio  more modest hydration. I find they serve my needs well. I achieve mature, and sufficiently open crumb without having to resort to higher hydration or a dutch oven. And, after all there's no flavor or mouth-feel in a hole.

As I understand it, Dutch Oven baking confines water vapor generated from the loaf's own water within providing the "wet environment" needed for optimum oven spring. It works. If you can, you might give it a try, or insure you're generating adequate steam otherwise both initially, and for the duration of the time it's needed.

Happy baking,

David G

 

 

cidilon's picture
cidilon

I feel that you are very spot on with all of your comments. Considering that I am baking basically a 2lb loaf, the oven spring time corresponds to your pattern. I will get my hands on a dutchie this week and give it another go to see if our hypotheses is correct. I will also make a small battard with the same dough in order to see the oven spring time on a smaller loaf. Thanks!

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

2 of Sylvia's steaming pans half full of water and a towel plus 1 pan filled with lava roks also half full of water.  I usually preheat to 500 or 550 F and put these pans on the bottom rack when the oven beeps it is at preheat temperature.  Then I set the timer for 15 minutes and the pans are billowing by then and the stones are also up to oven temperature since they lag 15 minutes or so.

I usually make 2pound loaves so they take a little lomnger to steam -15 minutes.  I think if you make enough stream your spring will happen earlier, your scores won'tt set nearly as early and the spring will be better - almost as good as a DO.

Happy Mega steaming

doughooker's picture
doughooker

What I have found makes all the difference in steaming is the exposed surface area of the water used to produce the steam.

For example, it makes a difference if you use a vessel which holds a 4" x 4" (16 sq. in.) surface area of water as opposed to a vessel which holds an 8" x 8" (64 sq. in.) surface area of water. The more water that is exposed to oven heat, the more steam there will be.

At a typical baking temperature of 425 F, this moisture is considered superheated steam because it is above the boiling point of water (212 F). You won't see a mist with superheated steam but it's there, humidifying the interior of the oven.

davidg618's picture
davidg618

I don't mean to start an argument, but your understanding of super-heated steam is incorrect. The steam in an oven will remain forever at 212°F until all of the liquid water in the same oven is converted to steam. The conversion of water to steam is a phase change of water, and the temperature wherein it occurs remains constant until all the liquid is converted. That temperature is called a eutectic point. Water is converted to ice at 32°F, another eutectic point; a mixture of ice and water will remain at 32°F until either all the water freezes or all the ice melts, only then can the mixture become warmer than 32°F or colder when all the water freezes.

From a bread baking point of view, the same is true internal to a loaf of bread dough baking. Until all the internal water is either evaporated from the dough, or becomes chemically bound with other dough molecules the local internal temperature will remain at  212°F or less. Furthermore, as stated earlier so long as liquid water exists in the steaming pan the steam present in the oven will remain at 212°F.

If you don't believe me ask any physicist or chemist, or any physics or chemistry major you trust. If you don't know any, ask any former USN boiler-man what you have to do to superheat steam. He'll tell you you have to isolate the steam from the water boiler. If you don't know a veteran boiler-man Google

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superheated_steam

Steam: water vapor at 212°F is invisible. What you see when you open the oven door is the sudden cooling of steam into liquid water: a mist of liquid water.

David G

doughooker's picture
doughooker

Here is the definition of superheated steam I got from the Wikipedia article you cited:

Superheated steam is steam at a temperature higher than its vaporization (boiling) point

The steam in an oven will remain forever at 212°F until all of the liquid water in the same oven is converted to steam.

This statement seems contradictory as well as circular. Once all of the liquid water is converted to steam, this statement tells me it will remain forever at 212 F.

Not to argue, but if water is heated to 425 F inside an oven, resulting in water vapor that is 425 degrees, would that not fit the definition of superheated steam given above?

drogon's picture
drogon

Water (and steam) won't get above 100C in an oven. At 100C it will turn to water vapour - steam is invisible vapour - ie. at a temperature above the dew point. Look at a kettle boiling - you'll see nothing for a few mm above the spout then you'll see visible steam - or in this case vapour.

You can test this if you have an electric hotplate and good origami skills - make a "water bomb" out of cartridge paper, 1/3 fill it with water and put it on the hotplate where it will boil until the water runs out - then it will burn, or the paper gives way and the water empties - then it will burn, however as long as there is water inside it, the paper will not burn. The water boils at 100C, keeping the paper below its flash point.

You can get water and steam to exist above 100C though - but you need to keep it under pressure, and that would be very detrimental to an oven baking bread!

Steam engines boil the water under pressure, generating hotter than 100C steam, but this is wet steam - to get to the superheated (or dry) stage, the steam pipes are then zig-zagged through the firebox of the boiler to further raise its temperature and pressure. More typical in steam turbines than steam piston engines. (Although some last generation steam trucks did use superheated steam) Definitely not something you want in your kitchen! (Although if you use a pressure cooker you will raise the pressure and thus temperature which is how they cook stuff quicker - I have seen the result of someone removing the lid off one when under pressure though - fortunately no-one was hurt, but the kitchen needed re-decorating afterwards!)

So as far as baking is concerned - more surface area means more steam (lava rocks, towels, etc.) - until you run out of water. Also some of the cheaper and more energy efficient ovens don't vent and retain the steam longer - my cheap one does this, but the expensive catering one I have vents - which is a bit of a waste IMO (and might end up with a little modification...)

 

Here's a little time-lapse video I made almost  a year ago showing a couple of sourdough spelt loaves springing up in the first 10 minutes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3v_v9fahGlk there was a pan of water in the bottom of the oven and the oven was at 250C - I turned them round and reduced the temp to about 210C after the first 10 minutes. Despite proving in bannetons, they still "flow" when turned out so initially looked a bit flat, but soon sprung up - spelt does that...

 

-Gordon

(Grandson of an old steam engineer)

placebo's picture
placebo

Water and steam coexist and remain at 100 C if they are in thermal equilibrium. This condition is met in the loaf or near the pan of water, but the steam thermally interacting with the surface of the oven at 230-C and relatively far away from the liquid water will certainly have a temperature over 100 C.

davidg618's picture
davidg618

If you read the entire Wikipedia article you would have come upon this sentence

"Superheated steam and liquid water cannot coexist under thermodynamic equilibrium, as any additional heat simply evaporates more water and the steam will become saturated steam."

You can only create superheated steam by separating the steam from liquid water. This is done in boilers by directing the saturated steam into a chamber of many long narrow tubes that are heated well above the boiling point of water. as the steam passes through the chamber it is isolated from its liquid source and heated to a higher temperature gaining more energy.

In an oven, where water continues to boil the airborne water molecules (steam) remain at an energy level whose temperature is 212°F/100°C. The oven's reported higher temperature are carried by the air's gasses and radiated by its solid structure. Objects, such as loaded bread pans are heated by the air gasses, radiant heat and conduction from the surfaces they touch. Nonetheless, despite the oven's reported temperature, the interior of a loaf will, at the end of the bake, remain at or near 212°F for the same reasons: free liquid water molecules in the dough.

Furthermore, contrary to drogron's post, It is possible to superheat steam at one atmosphere. It need not be compressed.  However, 20th century boiler technology created superheated steam in a pressurized environment for efficiency; i.e. compressed superheated steam can carry more energy (to push pistons or turn turbines) than one atmosphere steam. For example, during the twentieth century most U.S. Navy ships operated boilers able to superheat steam at pressures ranging from 825PSI to 1200PSI. As the steam passed through the ships turbines, turning its heat energy into mechanical energy it lost pressure and temperature. At the end of the chain the steam was condensed into liquid water again and recycled to the boilers. The condensers operated at approximately one atmosphere of vacuum; doing so allowed the "steam system" to extract as much of the pressurized superheated steam's energy as practically possible.

Again, don''t take my word for it. Search the internet.

David G

 

doughooker's picture
doughooker

You can get water and steam to exist above 100C though - but you need to keep it under pressure

That makes sense.

doughooker's picture
doughooker

I got out the oven thermometer again. With my steaming arrangement in place, the oven temp wouldn't get above 375 F with the oven temp set to maximum. With the steaming arrangement removed, the oven easily goes up to 450 F.

Whenever I try to steam the oven, or use a Dutch oven, I can never get a nice brown crust, even with high temperature settings and extended bake times.

I have tried spraying the loaf with water prior to baking, to keep the exterior of the loaf moist. The water eventually evaporates and this works OK. I can see why people remove the steam part way through the bake. My other option would be to use the Dutch oven and remove the lid part way through the bake, but I'm not keen on the idea of handling a hot Dutch oven.

davidg618's picture
davidg618

Like you, I'm reluctant to use a DO because of the safety issue.  I'm a "senior" with arthritis issues, and even in my best years I was sometimes clumsy.

Some time ago I tried an experiment to simulate what a DO does. It only works though if you have your bread on a baking stone or in a sheet pan. That's the first suggestion.

I bought an aluminum foil turkey size "throw away" roasting pan--about $3. I reshaped it's bottom to dome outward to give the bread room to inflate, and made certain the rim of the pan made a clean connection with my baking stone all the way around. Then immediately after loading the loaf I covered it with the roaster pan. After about 15 mins. I removed the roasting pan. I got good oven spring, and after removal the loaves browned nicely.

It worked, repeatedly. I used it for a while, but ultimately returned to classic steaming, and left my loaves uncovered. Covered, I could only do one loaf at a time, and couldn't do full sized baguettes.

Incidentally, A pre-heated baking stone may help your oven maintain temperature with your steaming in place. I've not heard of your problem before. However, Hamelman in his book Bread mentions that steam tends to cool an oven's interior.

He also states the interior of a baking loaf never exceeds 212°F.

Good luck,

David G

 

doughooker's picture
doughooker

Here is some detailed data on steam and oven temperature:

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/40992/steam-and-oven-temperature

jali86's picture
jali86

Taking this full circle back to Cidilon, I too have had issues with scores sealing up and not providing the bloom I so desire.

Similarly to you, I have been practicing the tartine country bread, and as I only have 1 Dutch oven, I do half the dough as a boule in the Dutch oven and the other half I prove in an oblong banneton and turn this out onto a peel before sliding it onto my pre heated baking stone. 

The difference in results is huge.

The Dutch oven loaf springs to epic amounts, i get a good large even tear along all the score lines.

The loaf which goes straight into the oven on the pre heated stone is quickly followed by a large cup of tepid water thrown onto a pre heated tray at the bottom of the oven and a frantic spraying of water as I slowly close the oven door. I have tried so hard to get a big bloom and a tear along my score line with this loaf/method but the score line always seals.

I have tried many different methods of getting steam into the oven, I've tried putting the loaf straight into the oven from the fridge (in the hope it will retain its shape more when flipped), I've tried temperature and time reconfigurations during the proving period....but not yet any luck. I know for a fact if I bought an oval Dutch oven and cooked it in that I would get a great result, but the challenge for me lies in getting a nice tear without using one...

So fear not you are not alone in your quest, I'll let you know if I have a breakthrough!

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

and put the botton of large oven proof pot over the bread to hold the steam in.   Cover for 20 minutes and then take the pot off and bake the loaf to 205 F on the inside  .  I have used stainless steel mixng bowls for this too.  I got my pot and mixing bowls at Goodwill for a dollar each on dollar Thursdays.

cidilon's picture
cidilon

Ah thank you very much for all your replies, as well as the debate on superheated steam! Lots of interesting and useful information. I did get my hands on a DO two days ago and the bread came out great. Beautiful scores and bloom, with a great rise.  The suggestions of using an oven proof pot or a turkey tray, seem like a great idea for doing multiple loafs while have only one "real" DO. I will indeed keep attempting to get a great spring and bloom without any of those tools and hope that one day I will achieve this (it works with yeasted loaves, so I am sure there is a way). Thank you all!

doughooker's picture
doughooker

I continue to do test bakes with and without the Dutch oven.

A D.O. traps steam as we know. I've found I must set my countertop oven to maximum using both the top and bottom elements to get the temperature sufficiently high to get a brown crust.

Without the D.O. there seems to be a tradeoff between the crust being too hard or too pale.