How do I know my stiff Starter needs / wants feeding...
... I started a new stiff Starter today by taking 1/2 of my 100% hydration starter.
Keeping one Jar with 100% hydration starter and 1 Jar with a 50% hydration starter.
The Stiff Starter rose much faster than the liquid one , it looked kind of cool with the dome while rising.
Now the dome has collapsed, is that the time to feed the stiff starter?
I want to keep the stiff starter on the counter until I am more confident with it and since I am baking a lot it makes sense.
I am feeding equal parts of Starter and Flour and half Water.
100g Starter / 100g flour / 50g Water.
Also , is there a way to get that Starter out of the Jar more easy since it sticks to the Glass , do I best use a fresh Jar each time I refresh and wash the old one for next feeding?
Confused here * again lol *
Your stiff starter is ready when it just starts collapsing on itself, when it has about doubled (or tripled) in volume. That is also the right time to feed.
No need to clean the jar, I never do. Use a scraper or a spoon dipped in water, that will help release the starter that you need for your baking.
So it is ready for baking when the Dome starts to collapse on itself, great :)
Since I need to knead the Stiff starter, I need to get all out of the Jar so I might aswell use a fresh jar and wash the other, I see how it will go.
Comapred to the 100% hydration Starter, how much Stiff starter would I need for a loaf made with 500g flour, 300-350g Water ... is about 30 % of the amount of flour the recipe calls for the right amount, or 20%...
I really like the stiff dough , I think it is easier to maintain too?
Are you making a desem-like bread?
I am trying to keep one starter at 50% hydration as well. Seeded using 50g of my 100% starter and fed it with 125g flour and 50g water. That was the 1st feed to make the whole stiff starter 50% hydration. I left that for 2 days without feeding. I keep at at 18C using a wine cooler.
The first feeding is slightly different because the initial starter is at 100% hydration, so 25g flour with 25g water as seed. I include another 25g flour to make it 50% hydration, then add the usual 100g flour (100 + 25 = 125g) and 50g water.
After that, I take out 50g from the core (soft parts) and feed 100g flour and 50g water to maintain it at 200g everyday. It is now smelling sweet with some small holes in the core after around one week.
I am keeping the "discarded" 150g daily in the fridge. Maybe I will make a whole wheat bread with it later. Last I checked, it is not growing in the fridge and does not smell sour like the usual liquid starter "discards".
What is a desem bread?
I just took 100g of my 100% hydration starter, added 100g of flour and 50g water, did a lot of kneading, it was a bit sticky so added some more flour until I had the dough like consistency I wanted and it tippled so fast, so I am very happy with it so far.
I fed it for the first time after the Dome started to collapse on itself and that was easy too:)
Happy Camper here.
I fed my 100% hydration Starter at the same time and the 50% hydration starter is almost as fast rising 100% hydration one:)
Mine does not grow much in the fridge either, when I take it out the day before Baking I just open the lid so that some air can get to it and it will rise in no time outside the fridge and smells as it should.
The 50% hydration one smells less sour, more creamy.
Sorry, forgot to add. If you are making a desem-like bread using a stiff starter, the recipe I saw uses 30% starter and proof quickly at a warm temperture so that the dough does not have the chance to turn sour.
cool, thank you for this info, it was needed:)
Do you have a link to the recipe?
I have 4 bookmarks
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/31721/desem-bread
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/31141/99-whole-wheat-desem-loaf
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/27999/honest-bread-100-wholewheat-desem-bread-and-some-country-bread
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/2050/desem-first-try
You're right, you'll need about 30% of flour weight in starter for your recipe. This fits in nicely to the 1:2:3 ratio of starter:water:flour.
You certainly could use more starter than that, as desired, keeping in mind the effects on your schedule and flavor.
I agree, generally stiff dough starter is easier to maintain.
Oh that is good:)
What is the 1:2:3 ratio.
I think I forgot lol.
What do you mean * you certainly could use more statter than that ... *
I prefer my bread tangy, my family mild. Doh
1:2:3 ratio is a classic, easy-to-remember bread formula.
This means use by weight:
For example, 100g starter, 200g water, 300g flour. This formula produces a 67% hydration bread, and uses 33% of the flour weight in starter.
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I meant that you can use as much starter in your bread formulas as you want. There is really no upper limit. You can make good bread using 50% of flour weight in starter, or 75%, or 100%. It doesn't matter, as long as you are aware that more starter means faster rising time (among other things).
You probably wouldn't want to use less than 20% of flour weight in starter to raise a bread, because it might take too long to rise; too long of a rise in dough made with sourdough starter means too much enzymatic activity (proteolysis) which means your dough gets very sticky/goopy/wet and doesn't hold its shape well. Here's a good thread about that from 2009: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/12057/sourdough-starter-impairs-gluten-development-perhaps
I try to feed my stiff starter before it collapses. Collapsed dome = beasties have run out of food.
Not sure how often you want to be feeding a starter but if you want to slow it down you have several options.
One way is to use less starter with each feed. Lets say 50:100:50. You already have a guideline for 100:100:50 so by knocking down initial starter you have something with which to compare your rising times.
Another way to slow down fermenting is with temp. Use your same ratio that you used above but drop your temp. and see what results. Using temp. to control fermenting can be trickier to achieve if you do not have a way to keep temps. consistent - i.e. a proofing box or refrigerator that doesn't get too cold.
As with most things bread related it just takes experimenting and, after awhile, you will get the hang of it. Since I am a home baker my starter is on 'my schedule'. It gets fed when I get fed. Nothing worse then trying to live your life around a starter's time table…..Like having a permanent infant in the house :O Infants are lovely but it is also a relief when an infant catches on to the household routine.
Fiddle around with your new guy. Poke it, sniff it, taste it and bake with it until you really know it and how it behaves. I like to think of it like you are starting out a new relationship. Just takes a bit of time to sort things out.
On jar sticking….Since a 50% starter is rather stiff you can always roll it into a ball and keep it covered in a bowl that is bigger than it is. That way you will only get sticking on the bottom and it is easy to remove the starter and it is also easy to clean the bowl.
Have Fun,
Janet
So if I would use 50g Starter,100g Flour and 50g Water, would that make the Stiff starter even stiffer?
I was told that Starter and Flour should be equal amounts and than the Water half.
So that would be , in my case 100g Starter, 100g Flouru and 50g Water. hmmm
So when the Dome collapses on itself that would also be the time where the Stiff Starter is ready for baking?:)
I shall poke around and sniff and bake until HE knows that I AM THE BOSS. ha
I shall pretend my Starter is a Man, I will call him Gordon and he will obey. hehehe
When I use a bowl that is bigger than my stiff starter, will it spread out?
In my 1qt Jar it will rise up * looks kind of cool *
Petra,
If your starter domes within a reasonable length of time, yes, it is then ready to be used for baking. The rising lets you know that you have life in your flour and the time gives you and indication of how much life.
The amount of starter that you start with is not a standard amount for every starter. All is dependent upon the results you want. If you want a 'sweeter' starter then do keep an equal amount of starter/flour. If you want to go more 'sour' lessen the starter amount.
Shorter times between feedings = less sour; longer times between feedings = more sour. All has to do with yeast, LABS and lag times. If you want more detail use the search box above and read through Debra Wink's writings. They will tell you all you want to know about the micro organisms that you are feeding.
Yes, it will spread out as it expands.
Oh wonderful, thank you Janet.
I noticed with my 100% hydration Starter that when I feed him every 12 hours it is less sour than feeding him every 24 hours.
I like it Sour, my family not so much.
I think for the family a less sour Starter is the better option so I go with the equal Starter Flour.:)
I really like it Tangy and love to eat it with unsalted butter and Gouda * drooling now lol *
We are moving house at the end of August, so I shall buy a bowl and other things for my Sourdough baking once we moved, I am already packing.
fridge. The last one was 125 g and lasted 8 weeks with no maintenance. Made a great bread with the last of it today
I don't ever use more than 10 g of seed to build it.The same rules apply. IF it can't double after the 2nd feeding in 4 hours you toss the 2nd feeding and do it again. I then refrigerate the starter as soon as it rises 25% after the 3rd feeding. I'm not a big fan of 50% hydration and prefer 66%. The size you make depends on how often you bake. I use between 3-8 grams of seed to make my weekly levain.
Happy Baking
Thank you so much dabrownman, that is kind of you:)
This will help.
I use to take the starter to a largereamount to make bread. This is based on a 800 g loaf and the levain build amount is based on how fast and how sour you want the bread to be. More sour is also made by doing out the fridge work at 93 F and the fridge retards at 36 F More levain means faster ferment and proof but also possibly more sour too if you aren't retarding the dough. All of these end up at 100% hydration levain.
Happy Baking
Thank you, that is GREAT.
I wouldn't clean out the jar or use a one. It becomes a nice little environment including those dry bits. You run the risk of introducing things you don't want including detergents that could kill off the good stuff.
Oh , I did not think about that, thank you so much for your reply.
I shall keep the jar and put my Starter back in there when I next feed it.
Im am convinced by only a stiff starter now, reason is that its so resilient and can withstand days without feed no problem.
Must admit it took a bit of trial to know when it "needs" a feed though as people have been saying you will get to know you starter as you taste, smell and visually record. It usually takes a whole day for mine to peak at 70F. Keep mine at around 60 -65 % hydration . Woud even like to go stiffer though sometimes the hard crust is not so appealing . Since you get to knead your dough together it a much more personal affair that mixing a liquid with a spoon. Never look back to watery starers now. When I bake I don't even take into account starters flour/water just use as a pre ferment and this is the way I love to bake.
Im sure you'll be a convert
As for detergent smells, I never wash any bread utensils with soap. My best friend is cold water, that is if I can get any in this hot climate.
Ghazi
I already love my stiff starter:)
Mine does peak withint 5 hours, it has by than tripled, but my Sourdough Starter has always been very active.
About 73F in my Kitchen.
I convertet half of my 100% hydration starter in to a 50% hydration Starter.
Have not yet baked with , I wont to give him a few more feeds for now.
I use very hot Water for my * Starter * utensils , Jars, spoons and such....
I have heard we can go a few days without feeding the stiff starter.... that is great.
My 100% hydration starter goes in the fridge tonight where my 133 % hydration Rye starter lives:)