The Fresh Loaf

A Community of Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts.

Sourdough fail

JessicaW3's picture
JessicaW3

Sourdough fail

I am a complete sourdough newbie and my first attempt at a true sourdough left much to be desired. I used Peter Reinhart's starter in his Artisan Bread Every Day book (starts with whole wheat flour and pineapple juice and becomes a stiffer type of starter) and then made his pain au levain from the same book.  I formed them into freestanding 1-pound boule-type shapes (I don't have baskets or bannetons, etc.) The dough spread rather than rose and there was little if any oven spring.  I baked on a pizza stone with a steam pan below, which has always resulted in wonderful commercially yeasted breads for me.

It has a nice tangy flavor but the inside crumb is dense and gummy with large pockets of air (forgive me if I'm not using all the correct terms--I'm kind of new to bread-speak ;) ). 

 

I am currently baking another loaf from the same batch of dough in a covered dish and it looks like it has marginally more oven spring but it will be a while until I can cut into it. 

Any troubleshooting assistance would be greatly appreciated. I have another batch of starter in the fridge ready to be turned into dough, and I'd love to do better next time :). 

Bob Marley's picture
Bob Marley

Hydration level???  Bulk fermentation time??  Final proof time??

Plan on getting some sort of container to "reinforce" the sidewalls of your dough during proofing.

MichaelLily's picture
MichaelLily

Looks underproofed to me.  One remedy is to let it proof longer!  Or your starter is not active enough.  Someone else will give more explanation.

As for proofing bowls, just find any old kitchen bowl and line it with a floured kitchen towel.  This actually works better than unlined bannetons in my experience.

 

Bob Marley's picture
Bob Marley

My first sourdough took about four hours to complete the final proof before sliding into the oven.

JessicaW3's picture
JessicaW3

67% hydration, starter built from my "mother starter" fermented for 8 hours until doubled, dough stretched and folded every 10 minutes for 30 minutes and then fermented 2 hours room temp, 24-ish hours in the refrigerator, 2 hours to come back to room temp, shaped, 2 hours until baked. 

Thank you for all the input!

JessicaW3's picture
JessicaW3

If my starter isn't active enough, what should I do for that. It seems like most of the information I can find online is for 100% hydration starters and I don't know enough to know what I might need to do differently. 

PetraR's picture
PetraR

For the first 3 Mont of a starters life you should not put it in the refrigerator so that it can develop good and gets strong:)

Feeding it every 12 - 24 hours.

Once it is strong you can keep it in the fridge and feed it once a week.

IF you keep your Starter in the fridge you should plan ahead when you want to bake ast your starter needs 3 feedings before you can bake * or, should get 3 feedings *

Since my Starter lives on the counter I am much more flexible with baking.

 

 

PetraR's picture
PetraR

How old is your Sourdough starter, and when did you convert it to a stiffer one?

Do you keep your Starter in the fridge?

If in the fridge it needs 3 feedings before it is strong enough for baking.

You should not keep your Starter in the fridge for the first 3 Month.

Your bread looks underproofed to me.

I work with a 100% hydration starter and now also have a 50% hydration starter.

If in any doubt if the dough is read to bake you should take a piece off * if a stiff starter * and see if it will float in a bowl of water.

I think you did not let enough time between each stretch and fold.

I would do 6 stretch and folds in 30 minute intervalls, after that I would let it proofe on the counter or in the fridge , shape and proofe and bake.

I do blame the short stretch and fold intervalls partly for the outcome.

nmygarden's picture
nmygarden

Keep the faith! While there is underlying science involved, there is also observation and intuition required. The same formula one day will respond differently another day and it takes experience to recognize the influencing factors and either take full advantage of them or compensate for them.

I bet your bread tastes great, and honestly, it looks better than my first efforts, which resembled UFO's more than loaves. Lesson #1 for me was to invest in a scale, which if and when I use it, helps enormously!

And you're in a good place, with the company of many skilled and experienced bakers who are kind enough to offer helpful guidance.

Bake on with abandon!

Cathy 

JessicaW3's picture
JessicaW3

Okay, thanks! I was just following instructions in the book :). 

It started out as a stiff starter and I started it a little over a week ago. It's been in the fridge since I reached that final step at day five or so. So you recommend I keep it out of the fridge for a few months and feed it daily? Does it need to be fed twice a day like a wet starter? Do I do the float test with the starter--not the bread dough, right?

Someone talk me off the ledge--it feels so painfully wasteful to me to throw out all that flour!

PetraR's picture
PetraR

You Starter was not strong enough for the fridge yet, it was barley alive when you put it to sleep:)

I just convertet my 100% hydration Starter into a stiff starter , in my case 50% hydration, so far it rises fast and keeps at peak much longer, so I think I get away with 1 time a day, but it depends on your starter.

A stiff starter rises in a different way, it will be more like a dome on top.

Once the dome starts to colapse on itself you know it needs feeding.

I would say: Feed your Dough for another 10 days and bake again, you will see a great difference:)

I am not sure if a float test with a stiff starter works, I am new to stiff starter too, we can learn together.

Mine is 50% hydration like a dough and I knead it for a few minutes before I put it in the jar, so far I like it:)

JessicaW3's picture
JessicaW3

Bummer, it sank. So I keep feeding it regularly until it gets more active? Why isn't this in the book??? :)

PetraR's picture
PetraR

Sometimes the Author believes in us a bit to much lol

JessicaW3's picture
JessicaW3

Bwahahahaha!!!

JessicaW3's picture
JessicaW3

I do have a scale, Cathy! I'd be a nervous wreck without one for sure!!!

JessicaW3's picture
JessicaW3

So if my culture isn't strong enough yet to raise bread, is there any benefit to using it in recipes that also call for yeast? In those recipes is the starter doing much of the leavening or is it mostly for flavor? Or will my bread still not rise because it depends on the sourdough starter as well for leaven?

PetraR's picture
PetraR

If you use yeast aswell as the starter than it will give good flavour to it.

I always put like 50g of Starter in my basic white bread loafs:)

If you use yeast your bread will rise but I would say, wait 10 days for your Starter to get really going and than bake again and you see your bread will be great.

JessicaW3's picture
JessicaW3

Thank you so much for all the help! How do I know when it needs to be fed again? Is it just when it starts to collapse back in on itself?

PetraR's picture
PetraR

yes, that is the time to feed again:)

You are very welcome, we are all in the same boat with learning Sourdough.

JessicaW3's picture
JessicaW3

Whoops! You answered that above. New to the forum--still trying to navigate it :). Thanks for all your help :). 

PetraR's picture
PetraR

No problem:)

As I said ,not sure if a stiff starter can do the float test.

It is ready for baking when the Dome starts to colaps in itself. 

* Just found that out yesterday by asking myself *

Mine is stiffer so, I use 100g Starter, 100g flour and 50g Water and really need do knead it like dough to become smooth before it goes back in its Jar.

JessicaW3's picture
JessicaW3

My daughter is sitting on the counter gnawing at my failed attempt ;). 

cranbo's picture
cranbo

I agree with the others, your dough looks underproofed. The 4 hours at room temp total may not have been enough, especially if your starter is young/not strong. Young starters can perform very sluggish in cold temps. 

Letting it rise in a basket (or in a bread pan) will not only help you hold shape, but it can help you tell more easily when your dough has doubled.

Feed your starter regularly (1-2x) per day for about 7-10 days, while storing it at room temp (as others have suggested). This will ensure it's strong and ready to use.

You said that your starter doubled in 8 hours. This means that it's likely that your finished dough would take 8+ hours at room temp to finish fermentation, depending on the amount of starter used in your recipe. If you want to shorten this time, either use more starter in your recipe, make your starter faster (by feeding it more often), or both. 

Don't worry, this is all part of the great sourdough learning experience :) 

 

JessicaW3's picture
JessicaW3

Thank you so much!

I'm so used to worrying about over proofing in the summer with yeasted breads, this is a completely different animal :). 

golgi70's picture
golgi70

Your starter is too young as was already mentioned.  Plus as Petra mentioned if you do go the route to store your starter in the fridge you need to bring it back to good health before using in dough.  

They say it takes about two weeks with regular refreshments to introduce lab sanfransiscus sp???.  The best way is warm and frequent I believe.  So 3-4 feedings a day will get you there the fastest.  But at least 2 feedings a day would be best.  Once you have a  stabilized clulture with the right bacterium you could then stow in the fridge (some still feel this hurts the delicate balance of the culture but it has proven successful for many).  

We feed our "mother dough" when it peaks (reaches it's max rise and right before it begins to fall) and can define this time by a few things; temperature, type of flour, viscosity (hyd%), and inoculation (amount of starter to flour)  The most common used to adjust timing of peaked starter is the inoculation as we usually keep either a stiff or a liquid levain and aim for the same temperature to promote certain flavors/aromas.  

The less flour to seed the faster it will deplete its food source.  So if you were to do 4 feedings a day you might do 1:1 (1 part seed 1 part flour) and aim for high 76-78F every 5-6 hours.  This is unfeasible for most, even pros.  If you were to do 3 feedings you might do 1:2 seed to flour every 8 hours.  I can muster up 2 feedings a day (when I feed as well which makes it easier) 12 hours apart and my inoculation fluctuates between 1:4 and 1:5 for an example.  I aim for the high 70'sF but the temp of my house dictates where it will hold.  

As for using in your yeast breads.  Well if doesn't smell bad (which some young starters do) it will at the least help the shelf life and potentially add flavor.  Just be sure to subtract the flour water that makes up your starter from the formula to keep things as they should be

I hope that's a little more insight on starter maintenance.  There is much more.  If it really interests you, you might want to read up on some other posts from our more scientific folks that have elaborated even more.  Debra Wink's post rings a bell

Cheers 

Josh

JessicaW3's picture
JessicaW3

Thanks Josh! I've read, like, 3 books and countless things online and it's so hard to assimilate all the information. I never read anything about the starter being too young, so I appreciate everyone's input. Thank you for taking the time :). 

golgi70's picture
golgi70

A young levain that is refreshed regularly will raise a fine loaf after about a week.  But the flavor won't be right for a couple weeks and then it will improve for some time. Some merit the age of their starter others make new starters a few times a year and use it during it's prime.

The best way to learn is to take the bull by the horn so to speak.  And you have.  With failure comes success as long as you keep at it. And once you get your starter ready and make your first "successful" loaf you'll never look back.  You mentioned Peter Reinhart's book which others have you read?  

Cheers 

Josh

JessicaW3's picture
JessicaW3

The Bread Bible and Peter's Whole Grain Breads. And something else?

Plus this site. Plus KA flour's site. Plus a million other internet things. 

I need a real life sourdough guru I can visit and watch. Books just don't quite cut it ;). 

golgi70's picture
golgi70

If so and you ask them nicely they very well may let you watch them and show you a few tricks.  

Josh

Janetcook's picture
Janetcook

You might like to read through what Mike Avery has to say about creating, maintaining and baking with a sourdough starter.  He is very thorough.  Click here for Sourdough Home.

Another good source for understanding the chemistry behind baking is Emily Buehler's book, BREAD SCIENCE.

The best thing you can do is to bake as often as you can.  You will soon learn when you starter needs to be fed, when it is ready for use and when it can be put to rest in your refrigerator.  In other words - with regular use you will get to know your starter and it will respond to the care you give it.   Not at all unlike learning how to care for an infant.

Have Fun.

Janet

MichaelLily's picture
MichaelLily

I'm a big fan of Sourdough Mike.  The man is passionate about his bagels and they come out absolutely delicious (although they stale very quickly).

JessicaW3's picture
JessicaW3

So, the recipe I tried last night had a variation for using the starter as flavor and commercial yeast as leaven, so I mixed up the dough last night and baked this morning and the loaves were gorgeous and yummy. So at least I now have a better idea of what the dough and bread should look and feel like. 

I have the starter out at room temp now. I fed it last night at about 11 and by 11-ish today it had just started to fall. It had almost peaked at 7 hours after the second feeding and I had to leave so I'll see what it looks like when I get home. It's pretty much doubling. Should it/will it be growing more than that or is doubling good enough?

Also, when I try to bake a straight sourdough loaf again in a week or so, at what point after feeding do I want to use that starter to build the starter for the bread?

Thanks again!

PetraR's picture
PetraR

Double is fine:)

You can use it when it just beginns to fall, if unsure do the float test Jessica.

With my Starter I give it about 12 hours and I know it is ready.

If yours is the stiff starter you use it when it starts to colapse on itself.

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

if your starter is ready to raise a loaf d bread by itself is to do a 3 stage levain build where each stage is 4 hours and you progressivly  feed it more flour and water for each stage - without throwing anything away

If it doubles after the 2nd 4 hour stage it is ready to feed it the 3th stage. IF it fails to double after the 2nd 4 hours stage, then toss the weight of the 2nd stage and repeat it.  Once it doubles after the 3rd stage it is ready to go.   Here is a chart of possible levain builds for an 800 g loaf of SD.  They all end up at 100% hydration and are based on a stiff 66% hydration rye starter kept in the fridge.

If you have a wet white starter, just pick the line you want and double the seed amount to start and cut the first stage down to 2 hours instead of 4.

  FirstFirst 2nd2nd 3rd3rd  Lcvain
Dough Build Build  Build Build  Build Build % of
AmountSeedFlourWaterTotalFlourWaterTotalFlourWaterTotalTotal
8003661411113622228010.0%
80048821171754333312015.0%
8006111128222272444416020.0%
8007141434282890555520025.0%
80081717413333108666624030.0%

The line you choose depends on how sour you want the bread to be and how long it will take.  Less means longer but sour can be small or large depending on how much time you have.

Happy Baking