Sour Dough recipe questions.
HI All,
*sigh* Let me try again to submit my questions- After 30 minutes of typing and copying, somehow I lost the entire thing when I hit save!
Anyway, here I go: I have been trying to use the recipe supplied by Gold Rush in their sour dough starter packet (yes, I got frustrated and tried a store bougth starter- but I have used several different starters with this recipe)The recipe (for a 1 pound loaf) calls for: ! cup starter, 1/3 cup warm water (90-100 degrees) 1 tsp salt, 2 cups bread flour (11-13% protein), and 1/4-1/2 tsp instant yeast.
The directions (with my comments/questions in italics) are :
1. In a mixing bowl, combine all ingredients (except the optional yeast). Mix until combined. Knead dough by hand for 15 minutes or with a dough hook for 10 mniutes (or until gluten develops). I take this to mean until the dough can pass the window pane test.
2. Flatten dough, place in a large plastic bowl. Dust the dough with flour and cover with plastic wrap. Rest the dough for 6-8 hours. If using yeast add to dough at this stage. Be sure yeast is well distributed throughout the dough . so, does this mean to add the yeast AFTER the 6-8 hours, or right before you rest the dough? I have been adding it sometime during that first knead. I even went to the Gold Rush website to get clarification, and was even more confused after reading their explanation of the directions.
3. Knead dough onto floured surface until gluten development. (does this mean it LOST the gluten development while resting the 6-8 hours?) Knead until dough is smooth, shiny, and satiny (my dough is always smooth shiny and satiny after the first round of kneading. it looses this texture when I start to knead again, and becomes very lumpy and ugly). Test for proper kneading by pressing your finger into the dough, if the dough stays indented it is developed. ( mine will stay indented, even though it is not smooth, and is lumpy)
4. Shape dough into desired shapes (rounds, loaves, rolls, baguette). Place on parchment lined sheet pan or greased pan.
5. Cover with plastic wrap and let proof for 4-5 hours (or over night in the refrigerator) until dough has doubled in size (the only time I got a second rise out of any of the attempts is when I let it proof in a VERY hot kitchen, as the AC had gone out and it was 105 degrees outside that day. It took about 6 hours, and it rose double, but looked weird, bubbly and with holes in it, though it kept its shape fine. Oddly enough, when it baked, it had no holes in it, and was very heavy and dense. )
6. With sharp knife or razor blade cut designs into the top of the bread dough. The cut enables the bread to rise evenly in the oven and for the crumb to open.
7. Preheat the oven to 475 F. Place pan with 1-2 inches of water on the bottom shelf of the oven. When water is visibly steaming, the oven is ready. Place the dough pan in the middle of the oven and reduce the heat to 425 f. Bake for 30-45 minutes.
I have used the bread flour with appropriate protein content (it was whole wheat, though) and a combination of rye and wheat in different ratios.With the WW and rye flours, I have added 1 tbsp gluten for each cup of flour I have used. Every time, the bread has turned out very dense. no rise in the oven, and except for the last time, no rise with the proof. I have let it proof in the refrigerator over night for all but the last time, as it took so long for the first rise. The dough has doubled every time with the first rise. While all the results have been edible, and the more recent loaves have had the increasing tang (though not quite yet to my preference) , the crumb is not what I would like, and the crust is tough and chewy.
So, any comments or suggestions or explanations as to why things happened (to the best of your knowledge) would be appreciated. I like this recipe because it SEEMED to simple. I am trying to do two things:
1- make a good San Francisco type sourdough with that tang. I have seen that San Joaquin Sour Dough recipe on someones blog (sorry my mind is not clear so late in the evening and I forget whose blog/recipe it was..Dave Or Dan, perhaps?)
2- make a reasonable facsimile of the German wheat/rye sourdough that I had when I was a child in Germany. I have been able to find fairly good representations of this bread at various artisan or European bakeries, but I would love to be able to make some myself.
I have tried 2 other sourdough rye recipes, one that used its own type of "starter" ( I think you baker types call it a preferment or levain or something) and they were good enough tasting, but not quite right. They also, were very heavy and did not rise the second time.
All of the flours I use are organic. I have used King Arthur Brand od some of Bobs Red Mill and also some unbranded organic ones that I bought in bulk from my food coop. The gluten I used was from Bobs Red Mill Vital Gluten.
Thanks in advance for any help you can give!
Sandy
Sandy,
It sounds like your starter needs refreshing or is not active enough. There are numerous formulas posted on TFL that will give you the steps needed for getting your starter activated. Rather than try to critique your method, below is a link to a detail formula (for reference to the steps for building a levain (leaven)) that I posted a while back that gives the steps I use to build an active/ripe starter into a levain (leaven), which should ensure that you get good results:
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/24306/rye-pain-au-levain-cracked-rye-and-caraway-seeds
The point being, you need to really get your starter cranked up or you will experience what you described: "They also, were very heavy and did not rise the second time..."
Incidentally, you should not need additional gluten if you are using flour with 11-13% protein, and there's no need to add commercial yeast to your dough if your starter and levain (leaven) is fully developed.
Howard
Thank you, Howard, for your reply. I will check out the link. I had already thought that perhaps some of the problem was my starter after reading through a lot of the website. The last time I did have the ripe starter, and it did get the second rise, but was still tough and heavy. I am not sure if I am not doing something correctly or if the recipe is just not going to give me a bread as light as I would like. I was also concerned that I lost the shiny, satiny feel to the dough with the second knead and it became a lumpy, sticky mess. This happened all 5 times I made the recipe. That, the crust being so tough.
Sandy
Sandy,
It sounds like you also have a hydration (water content) problem. You should be using baker's percentages to calculate your hydration level. Use the search feature on TFL for "Baker's percentages" or Google "baker's percentages" to get the formula. All ingredients in your dough should be based on the weight of the flour. Also, get yourself a digital scale and weigh all your ingredients. Otherwise you won't be able to accurately determine the proper percentages of ingredients.
If your dough is too dry (under-hydrated) the result will be a tight, doughy crumb (interior). Your hydration level (water content in the final dough mixture) for the bread that you're trying to make should be between 65-70%. I run my final doughs up to approximately 70-72% hydration. With high-hydration dough, in order to fully develop the gluten strands in the final dough mixture, requires, in addition to the final dough mixing, at least three (3) stretch and folds after mixing, at approximately 20 minute intervals---prior to bulk fermentation. Another thing, you should intially do a short mix on your final dough mixture, getting the dough into a ragged mass and let it rest for 30 minutes (this is called autolyse) and is done before adding your salt to the final dough mixture. This allows the leavening (levain) to start working. Salt, as you may know, retards/inhibits the leavening.
I would suggest that if you do not have Jeffrey Hamelman's book: BREAD - A Baker's a Book of Techniques and Recipes that you purchase this book. It's available on this site and Amazon. In my opinion Hamelman's book: BREAD is the best book available for home bakers to understand the baking process. Carefully read the first 90 pages, where he describes in detail the 11 steps of baking and highlight/underline the important verbiage. You will be amazed at how much information is in this book. Jeffrey Hamelman is the Director of Baking at King Arthur Flour.
Incidentally, we've all been where you are, trying to figure out the process. Don't give up. Use the cumulative information on TFL and check out some of the baking videos available on YouTube and other sites such as Northwest Sourdough and Breadtopia.
Good luck with your quest,
Howard
Learning to make bread takes persistence and learning. First comment is to use ONE simple recipe (basic white) and make it over and over until you master it. You need to keep notes in a notebook (nothing elaborate) and evaluate each loaf. If necessary, change only 1 thing between one bake and the next so you can learn what the ingredients do and how technique affects the outcome. Do NOT flip between recipes and ingredients (ww,rye,etc) as it changes dough behaviour a lot.WW is a whole different learning curve. If you want to start there, that's fine,too, but start with ONE recipe with the same ingredients.
I just watched the video on the Gold Rush site on how to make their starter. I have to concur with hold99 that the starter is a major part of the issues you are having. When the gentleman in the video presented the starter as "being ready to go" I assumed he meant it was ready to use in a recipe. To my eye, it was nowhere near ready (active enough). I have activated dried starters and it takes a few days of feedings before the starter is ready to make a good loaf- at least if you want to use it as the only yeast in the mix. It should be very bubbly and much higher in the container from where it started.
That being said, I do hybrid loaves often-meaning sourdough and commercial yeast in the same recipe. I use additional commercial yeast to adjust the baking schedule as I have limited amount of time to bake. If I am doing an all sourdough loaf, I build up my starter for the hard work by feeding several times daily for several days so it has oomph.
Start to ask the questions and change things based on what you think or find to be the answer. Learn why the techniques are thought to work for that particular loaf.Why rest overnight? Why rise to double? Why rise twice? How can I tell when a loaf is properly proofed?
I think the procedure they have outlined is too complex and long. The poor yeasties are weak and then asked to do lots of work-they just poop out. Retard without rising,then 1 rise then shape,proof, bake.
Bread is a matrix of starchy gel trapped in a web of gluten strands that is aerated by gas bubbles of CO2 produced by the feeding yeast. All the techniques we use to make a loaf of bread are designed to get all this out of the different ingredients in the proper balance for the loaf we are trying to make-soft sandwich bread,holey,baguettes,dense wheat bread,creamy rye bread,etc,etc. It is an enormous balancing act.
You are on 2 different paths. You might want to choose one or the other to work on first. Learn to make and maintain starter OR learn to make bread. Starter making is easy-flour,water,time.Just do a few tablespoons of flour in a small jar-stir several times a day and keep a light cover(paper towel rubber banded) on so it doesn't form a "skin"but can still breathe. As it bubbles(after a few days),start discarding half and feeding it. Like a canary-clean the cage,change the water and give it food! On the other hand starter maintenance is as varied as the number of bakers. Choose 1 method and try it. Don't change. It can be accomplished. It is what our grandmothers and great- grandmothers and great-great-great baked with always.
Finally, I think the proofing is too long. Look up "finger-poke test" in the search box. Loaves are dense because they don't rise but also because they are overproofed and fall.
So lots of issues and hopefully some help. Keep baking!
Thank you all for responding. I have been able to make yeast breads quite easily, it is the sour dough that I have been having particular difficulty with. I found a recipe for simple whole wheat bread, made a few minor adjustments ( it actually was only about 1/3 ww in the recipe, I have made it 100% and added gluten) that I can barely keep in the house the family loves it so much.
My son and I both love sourdough breads, and as I stated in the original post, I was trying to get a rye/wheat sourdough that tasted something like the bread I had in Germany as a child. I have gotten some that were very close in taste, just not in texture.
I feel I thoroughly understand the tests for gluten development, as I can get the dough to pass the window pane and finger poke tests easily (all the time with my ww bread, and before the first rise with the sourdough). I thought after reading on here that perhaps it was an issue with the recipe I was using, as I seem to have pretty much the same problems over and over. While I understand the theory behind baker's percentages, honestly, I just do not have the energy to try and calculate those things out. I am totally fine with weighing things, I can do that with no problem, I just want a simple recipe that says add so many grams/oz, whatever of flour, so much water, so much salt, etc. I am ok with the fact that sometimes depending on humidity/temperature, one might need to add a bit more flour or a bit less flour.
I know many of you really spend a lot of time, and I admire your patience and skill, but truly, my poor brain would just go into overload if I had to calculate percentages on my days off to get bread out for my family. I work full time as a nurse case manager (currently 108 patients on my case load) and am raising now my 2 1/2 year old grandson full time and share raising my 6 year old granddaughter with her other grandparents. That is just about all the figuring and planning my poor brain can take at this point.
Also, the crust is a challenge for me.
So, I am trying to find a relatively simple sour dough recipe to try and practice on and then move on to experimenting, which is why I went with the gold rush recipe.
I will keep plugging on! My goal is to never buy bread again for daily use!
Sandy
You have a full life and this can be a great,fun distraction or it can become an added stressor. Have fun doing it but be a little focussed until you get a system down. Sourdough does require maintenance and there are great, easy ways to get flavorful bread using regular yeast. It may be sourdough is in your future. The hardest part of making your daily bread is getting a system down and getting familiar with how a recipe works. Once you do that, it can fit into a busy schedule. You sound fairly familiar with bread baking. Maybe work on developing a system for a "go to" recipe and branch out from there.
One thing I learned to do is to use a preferment-whether sourdough or commercial yeast. It enhances the flavor tremendously. Essentially, take a recipe that has about 3-4 cups of flour in it. From the measured flour and liquid take equal amounts flour and liquid(I usually use 1 c each),mix it up in a plastic container with a lid with about 1/4 tsp yeast( this will be in addition to yeast added later). Let it sit on the counter overnight(if baking the next morning) or 4-8 hours (depending on the kitchen temp:hotter temp=ferments faster). It should be bubbly and smell yeasty. Make the dough using this preferment as part of the measured ingredients (except the yeast) and see if it works into your schedule a bit better. It works with any recipe and adds the much desired flavor to any bread. If you make the preferment with WW, it helps hydrate the WW flour for a softer loaf.
I just re-read your original post. Originally, you want to develop a sour sourdough loaf and a German wheat/rye from childhood. There are plenty of rye-lovers here. Do a separate post about the rye-describe the origins, if you know and the characterisitics of the bread itself. Heavy?Light?Sandwich? New York Deli? Sour? Lots of chew?
As for the sourdough(white or rye), you have to be able to develop and maintain a starter. It's not hard but is a different project that will take time to develop. That can be a project to do now and then develop the breads later.
The directions (with my comments/questions in italics) are : (and my comments are in bold - Mini)
1. In a mixing bowl, combine all ingredients (except the optional yeast). Mix until combined. Knead dough by hand for 15 minutes or with a dough hook for 10 minutes (or until gluten develops). I take this to mean until the dough can pass the window pane test. YES, that's what they mean. I tend to do it differently. I mix up a shaggy dough until all the flour is moistened and then cover and let sit 30 minutes to return to the dough and continue. Saves me a lot of work while the dough develops gluten all by itself.
2. Flatten dough, place in a large plastic bowl. Dust the dough with flour and cover with plastic wrap. Rest the dough for 6-8 hours. If using yeast add to dough at this stage. Be sure yeast is well distributed throughout the dough . so, does this mean to add the yeast AFTER the 6-8 hours, YES , sounds like if the sourdough starter is too weak in 8 hours, and you're in a hurry, add some instant yeast to give the dough a boost, then the dough should be handled like a faster yeast bread from this point on with shorter rising times. The sourdough then becomes more of a flavoring, using the 6-8 hours as preferment time.
3. Knead dough onto floured surface until gluten development. (does this mean it LOST the gluten development while resting the 6-8 hours?) Knead until dough is smooth, shiny, and satiny (my dough is always smooth shiny and satiny after the first round of kneading. it looses this texture when I start to knead again, and becomes very lumpy and ugly). Test for proper kneading by pressing your finger into the dough, if the dough stays indented it is developed. (mine will stay indented, even though it is not smooth, and is lumpy) Really don't understand this direction. Kneading a sourdough is too much action for a sourdough, I would gently degas the dough and do a rotation of envelope folds. Shape into a round, rest for 15 min and then shape for loaves. If kneading makes the dough lumpy, then don't do it. If the dough is soft, folding during the bulk rise will do more for the dough than a long bulk rise of the dough just lying there. Sourdoughs get wetter as they ferment, more so than instant yeast doughs. They tend to relax more and therefore need help in maintaining their shape. I tend to think of yeast doughs with clear lines between bulk rise and final rise, but with sourdoughs, it is more like one rise with gentle little interruptions.
4. Shape dough into desired shapes (rounds, loaves, rolls, baguette). Place on parchment lined sheet pan or greased pan. This is when the oven should be preheated if you plan of baking right away.
5. Cover with plastic wrap and let proof for 4-5 hours (or over night in the refrigerator) until dough has doubled in size (the only time I got a second rise out of any of the attempts is when I let it proof in a VERY hot kitchen, as the AC had gone out and it was 105 degrees outside that day. It took about 6 hours, and it rose double, but looked weird, bubbly and with holes in it, though it kept its shape fine. Oddly enough, when it baked, it had no holes in it, and was very heavy and dense. ) I don't. Here is where the dough sounds too weak to hold in the gasses from fermentation. Also no mention of proofing temperature. Instructions sound like a cold room with a weak starter. With added yeast, the dough would be over-proofed. With a strong starter, this would also not take so long.
6. With sharp knife or razor blade cut designs into the top of the bread dough. The cut enables the bread to rise evenly in the oven and for the crumb to open.
7. Preheat the oven to 475 F. Place pan with 1-2 inches of water on the bottom shelf of the oven. When water is visibly steaming, the oven is ready. Place the dough pan in the middle of the oven and reduce the heat to 425 f. Bake for 30-45 minutes.
I have used the bread flour with appropriate protein content (it was whole wheat, though) and a combination of rye and wheat in different ratios.With the WW and rye flours, I have added 1 tbsp gluten for each cup of flour I have used. Every time, the bread has turned out very dense. no rise in the oven, and except for the last time, no rise with the proof. I have let it proof in the refrigerator over night for all but the last time, as it took so long for the first rise. The dough has doubled every time with the first rise. This is what bothers me. The bulk rise with sourdough-only dough left alone until it "doubles." Try reading about "Stretching and Folding" the sourdough while it is rising. This gives you more chances to feel the dough and know what is going on during the fermenting process. When the dough is stretched in intervals, the outcome is clearly seen in the resulting crust and crumb.
Thank you so much, Mini, for answering my questions. I tried the recipe again yesterday with MUCH better success, though still not perfect. I did do the small wait period after mixing the ingredients together. about 30 minutes. I used just Bob's Red Mill AP flour, no gluten and no added yeast. I did the knead after with my KA, then let it rise in the oven with the light one for about 8 hours. It had a nice rise, and then, instead of doing the heavy kneading I did a few of those envelope turn things, let it rest about 10 minutes, then shaped it. Instead Of trying to get a boule, I shaped like I do my WW sandwich bread, and placed it in the bread pans I use for the ww. I then returned to the oven lit stove and allowed to rise about 65 hours, then baked as instructed. I actually think i let it go too long in the oven the second round, as when I took it out to preheat the oven, they deflated a slight bit. However-I got a much better crust ( not perfect, but definitely a great improvement), and the crumb was less dense. From my reading I understand that often to get that good sourdough tang, it requires patience and the long slow rise (or preferment. I think. I still think of everything as a rise time, and I am still not clear about the distinction between a rise time and a proof time, but that is a whole other issue!) The bread tasted good, had good color, but could still use some work. My plan is to continue using this recipe but make changes in the kneading times and other minor adjustments such as stretching and folding and get that recipe down and a better understanding before I continue trying to find that good German rye bread. I think I was just confusing my poor brain, and since I do not write notes (as I am always SURE I will remember what I did to each loaf of bread) I think I clouded the issue.
On a side note, while I was waiting for responses and mulling through things, I found someones blog entry about doing a sour dough with a 1:2:3 ratio. I tried that, as I am so not willing to throw away so much starter.My starter has come along great, and bubbles and responds happily and grows well when fed, so ....I digress...so I had 647 gr of my starter and just couldn't bear to throw it out, nor did I have room to store that much, so I tried the two recipes. To be fair, I used the KA to knead the original recipe, and I attempted to do the fold and turn type knead for the other recipe. I learned that the stubborn pain from whatever it is in my right arm does not allow me to knead or do those repetitive movements for more then 5 minutes without making me pay for it for the next 24 hours. I never did get a really good gluten development with the other recipe, and I had to let it rest while the other dough was kneading in the KA, so that might have been the problem. That loaf has a good taste also, and a nicer crust but it FLAT, and only made one loaf with twice as much of the initial dough as the original recipe. Again, I think I was confusing my mind trying to do two different things so in the future, I will stick to one at a time until I have a better handle on this.
And jot down simple notes like date, room temp, relative humidity and then I write down the time I start and what I did. If I have two breads going at a time, the left page is one recipe, the right side the other one. It didn't take me long to realize that particulars just don't stay in my head. The more starter used in a recipe, the faster it will rise(or proof) and be ready for the next step. When a loaf starts to sink or degas on its own, yep, got to get to it much sooner before it over-proofs. Don't let your final proof "double" ans save some rise for the oven. I don't let my finished shaped loaves rise or proof in the oven, because I turn it on when shaping if I pre-heat the oven. I do have a mini oven (surprise!) that heats up in 15 minutes, esp. good for outdoor baking near the house.
You should also know that I am one of the laziest kneaders (on site) and I do everything by hand. Resting and Folding is a great way to develop dough with little kneading. Too much kneading gives me hot flushes and I just can't stand to look "adorable," as my husband would say. (I think he just likes the idea that I try to tear off all my clothers as fast as possible.) If you must knead and your wrists are bothering you a lot, try kneading a little differently. Think of not bending your wrists and use your shoulders more and upper body weight to knead keeping your arms a little stiffer. Think to use the motion in your upper body leaning back and forth. Get the energy from your shoulders. Inhale, exhale letting your shoulders fall and relax and push from simple motion. Enough said.
About the rye bread, you can work on that too, just pick a different day so you can think about rye. I take it you are interested in a rye dough that contains more than 50% rye flour. Very different from wheat, rye is not wheat and requires a different handling (less) and a different attitude. Your childhood bread might also require a few spices so information about when and where in Germany would be fun to share.
Thanks again for your reply. The reason I let my bread proof in the oven is because it called for a long proof time (several hours) so I was clearly not preheating the oven that long. Plus, I have limited counter space and needed to be able to fix dinner for the grandkidlets.
As for teh kneading, I really tried to use my entire body and rock into it, and was actually enjoying the process. and attempted to use mostly my left arm. I have bone spurs on my neck which causes issues with my shoulder, and then down to the elbow and wrist, but I think I might be able to do more of the french fold thing...or the stretch and fold, though I still need to watch a few more videos.
As for the rye bread, I need to just take some time and go to the local European bakery that has a reasonable facsimile of the bread I recall and look at their ingredient list. I believe the one I like is 53%rye and 47%wheat, but I might be incorrect. I just need to go look. I know it has NO seeds..we don't like to pick them out of our teeth in my family....and I am sure it did not have the cocoa that some recipes call for. I am not even sure if it was whole wheat or regular wheat. I tried to look online, but they do not have ingredient lists. I know they receive their breads par baked and finish them off there. I believe all the dough comes from Europe somewhere.
I do know, now, though some of the items I will put on my birthday lists...mainly, some of the books listed here!
Again, thanks all for all the help!
Sandy
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/29087/can-i-skip-salt-waiting-step-tartine-country-bread#comment-221384
... with rye and whole wheat flours, a preferment would be a very good thing. A preferment is such fun, too. Don't want to confuse you, as Mini has already given you a lot of excellent advice and suggestions. But if you get a free moment, do some searching here on Preferments. Preferments are exactly that - just a pre fermenting of some of the recipe's flour, water, yeast which is left for several hours to ferment away, before throwing in the remainder of the flour, water, yeast, salt and any other ingredients specified. (Am mentioning this as you said in one of your earlier posts you weren't getting the lightness of crumb you wanted with your German-style rye and wholewheat sourdough attempts).
The beauty of a preferment when baking with heavy flours - rye and wholewheat - is it improves the lightness ofthe crumb hugely. Also, a preferment is a great convenience. You can mix it up the night before you bake and leave it to work its magic while you sleep. Whether you leave it at room temperature or in the fridge will depend on your ambient temperatures and whether you make a wet preferment - poolish style - or a dry preferment - biga style. All the finer details you'll find here if you get a chance to do a little digging, or holler if you hit a bit of a quandry.
All at Sea