Starter using fresh milled hard white not rising
Hello, all.
I am attempting my first sourdough starter to make my first sourdough bread. So this is all completely brand new to me.
I think I may be suffering from information overload. I followed the instructions to a 'T' to get my starter going and have yet to have it rise more than half an inch (using a small mason jar.)
Background:
Everything I read says to follow 1:1:1 sfw recipe and within 7 days your starter will be ready to use. Not!
I am on day 6 with this current starter (I started the first one about 3 weeks ago and ended up throwing it out because it wasn't doing anything. I ran out of the original flour, had to switch flour, it stopped bubbling so I threw it out, not realizing that I probably could have saved it if I just kept going.)
Anyway... I've been at this and am getting a bit weary. I've come to realize this actually is a science experiment.
Started out using 113 g of fresh milled hard white flour and water. Feeding at the same amount everyday for 3 days. Started feeding same amount twice a day a.m. and p.m. Still not much. I reduced the amount to appx 80 g because I felt like I was wasting so much flour.
have a climate controlled house with very little air intake and was wondering if that might be the problem. So yesterday I put the starter on the outside porch covered and closed and it got up to 84. Still not much activity.
Last night I put the starter in the oven with the light on because I figured maybe my house temperature of 73 was too cool. Still not much activity.
I have a climate controlled house with very little air intake and was wondering if that might be the problem. So yesterday I put the starter on the outside porch covered and closed and it got up to 84. Still not much activity.
I think the problem now might be that my berries are old and have lost their protein content. I honestly cannot remember when I purchased them so it's been a while. They have been stored in an airtight container.
I ordered organic rye flour to have on hand and because I heard it has a higher protein content and is great for starters.
1. My first question is should I continue with this starter and add rye plus other fresh wheat flour? Or do I need to start completely over? Or should I continue with a different fresh milled wheat?
2. When can you start using the starter discard? How do you know if it is safe to use? And how should it be stored?
3. How should they starter be covered? I have been using Saran wrap, loosely covered.
I'm so sorry this is long but with any science experiment I know the details are relevant.
I could not upload the photo because it was too big but I will we try later.
I appreciate any and all help.
Kimberly
Hey Kimberly! You will get some good advice here. I haven’t made my own starter in a long time, and I didn’t feel up to a science experiment when I recently decided to get back into sourdough, so I bought a starter from King Arthur. But, I had so much support and help from other fresh loafers here when I did start my own many years ago. I’ll be watching your post to see what others suggest. I do mill my own flour, but I used plain unbleached all purpose when I made my first starter. I wonder if maybe using a combination of fresh and storebought might help the starter get off the ground? Eager to hear what others have to say. ~Katie
You'll find some great tips here but buying a starter is cheap and very effective.
Carl's friends will send you a starter for free!
Sourdoughs International has a wide selection of exotic starters.
King Arthur starter comes fresh!
The science experiment can be fun and satisfying but don't let it frustrate you. Buy one, enjoy baking and then do the science experiment if you wish.
Gary
Thank you so much. Katie and Gary, for the encouragement.
I am determined to get it going, which is part of the challenge for me at this point. I am a life long learner and am learning so much.
Kimberly
Yes. Besides eating the bread the learning is the best part!
1. I'd continue with what you have. 3 days isn't very long for these things. I'll wager that your flour is fine. Berries keep a long time.
2. Use the discard anytime. It'll gradually get more sour and acidic but it is flour and water so you can use it just about anywhere.
3. There is plenty of oxygen in your jar. Cover it any way you like. Down here keeping the bugs out is the major reason for covering it.
Rye is great for starters (and in general) but I doubt you need it.
Have you seen Debra Wink's series on starters?
Gary,
I have not seen Debra series but I will check it out.
One question I still have is how much should the starter feed be reduced to each day? Does it matter?
I've seen anywhere from 2 TB to 1 cup.
But I'm actually on day 6 (I may have posted fuzzy math!).
Thanks.
See this comment for links to Debra's series: https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/72678/making-starter-when-youre-dealing-mold#comment-523488
It doesn't really matter. You can make a little or a lot. I keep about 60 grams of starter at 100% hydration (30 grams of flour and 30 grams of water). I see lots of instructions calling for 1 cup of flour on each feeding. That seems wasteful to me.
I also see people who don't measure anything. They add some flour then add enough water to get a pancake like consistency and that's it.
I'm a math nerd so I keep track of every gram but it isn't necessary.
Gary
Mix some flour and water (keep it thick) - let it thin out - add more flour till it's thick again - continue. In a couple weeks - give or take - you'll have a starter. Enjoy!
Thanks.
I really like the simplicity of your instructions!
When it rests, it should become light and airy, right? Is it also thin? I'll have to take notice of that.
When you feed it. you give it flour AND water, in equal amounts, right? And it should be like a thick paste?
Thanks a bunch!
C above - you can add water - but a very small amount. Imopotant to keep it thick (more than what it's accostomed to) and go from there. Enjoy!
you might just be impatient XD That's how starter development is. Several days of non-observable activities, then all of sudden it's bubbling. I myself starting a new one, 10 years since the last time I bake anything. Mine was just white flour with black rice water on day 1. Then I add 4% salt on each feeding, experimenting a bit to reduce sourness. It managed to double in size on day 6 after 12 hours. I live in tropical place, it's hot in here. Currently indulging Irish soda bread with scallion and sesame oil made with discarded starter XD.
The more you spoil your starter with such treatment, the harder it will be to mantain. It's better to grow your starter in a working condition you are comfortable most. You control the starter, not the starter controlling you
I've made a new starter 6 or 8 times, usually with just white all-purpose flour, and the only time it failed was the time I baked the flour first, as an experiment. I thought the main source of yeast was the flour and not the air as most people claimed back then, so I baked the flour first to kill any organisms it harbored. Side by side I started one the same way but with unbaked flour. The baked one failed to get going, the unbaked one created a starter.
One problem experienced people have is that their kitchens are probably full of yeast all the time, and they do things without realizing it, so it's easy for them to get a new starter going, and hard for them to help someone who's having problems.
It's helpful to realize that none of the details people usually agonize over are likely to make any difference. Exact hydration, temperatures, flour mixes, feeding schedules, they can vary all over the place and still produce a good starter - much like baking a loaf of bread.
If I were to start from scratch at this point, here's what I would do (bear in mind that the exact details aren't very important) -
1. Use a common commercially available flour or flours (e.g., Gold Medal AP);
2. Use some or all of whole wheat or rye, or a mixture (or a 50-50 mixture with AP flour);
3. Begin with 100% hydration, and start with an ounce or two of flour and water; Don't use tap water unless it has been filtered or allowed to stand to let chlorine dissipate (this is a precaution; I don't know if the amount of chlorine would really matter).
4. For the beginning few days, include a tablespoon of pineapple juice (or perhaps lemon juice) for acid;
5. If you start to see some activity or change, you can feed it, otherwise just stir it several times a day;
6. Have patience - if you see bubble activity, it doesn't mean you have much yeast growing yet. If you don't, it does not mean that nothing is happening.
Reasons behind these items:
1. Commercial AP and bread flours usually have useful additives like diastatic malt, and are formulated to be successful and consistent.
2. WW and rye flours have more available food (and probably microorganisms) that white flour, whereas white flour is cheaper and easier to work with.
3. 100% hydration is easy to work with, and development and fermentation move faster with higher hydration;
4. A mildly acidic environment helps you skip stages in starter development that can have unpleasant organisms trying to grow.
5. If nothing seems to be happening, then not much of the available food will be getting used up. Stirring will help bring fresh nutrients or oxygen close to some organisms that have run out of them locally; It may also bring in more air into the mix, which will help the yeast to reproduce. This works better with higher hydrations since it's easier to stir and agitate them.
6. For me, it's usually taken around 5 to 7 days to get a starter that seems to act normally and has some ability to leaven a loaf of bread. But that time could be quite variable.
Don't -
- Worry about the exact room temperature;
- Get concerned about discard amounts - when you build up too much baby starter, just throw most of it away; It's only a bit of flour and water that won't be good for anything else anyway.
Thank you so much TP for all of the great information, advice and encouragement, especially the part about being patient.
1. What exactly does 100% hydration mean?
2. So do you think I can just leave it sit on the counter at 73° and it will eventually double in size (all else considered)? I mean, I do want to grow faster than slower.
3. When you say, ' If nothing seems to be happening, then not much of the available food will be getting used up. Does that mean if nothing is happening then it's time to feed?
Thanks so much, everyone. I'm watching the grandkids today and have a head time to respond to everybody. But thanks a ton!
Hi, Kimberly,
- 100% hydration is a common term in bread baking, and it means that the weight of water equals the weight of the flour. 65% hydration means that the amount of water weighs 65% of the weight of the flour (so it would be much thicker than 100% hydration).
- A new starter will go through several stages as it develops. First it will seem to do nothing. Then it may bubble or foam a bit, or even a lot. it may develop an off odor for a day or two. Then that may quiet down and seem to do little. Then finally it should start to grow visibly and obviously develop gas, and the smell should get sweeter or more pleasant. That's the point at which the yeast has multiplied enough to do some real levaining work, and also other desirable organisms are most likely to be getting established. All this time the acidity will be developing enough to favor the yeast and other organisms we want and to suppress the ones we don't want. While all this activity is taking place, the culture, as I'll call it, will need new food - flour - to make up for what gets used up. At the beginning, though, when very little seems to be happening, there's not much need to replace the food. since not much is getting used up. Stirring a few times a day will probably be helpful even during this time.
As for containers and other tools, I use a quart-size plastic deli container. They seem to be scarce these days, as other container styles are being used more and more. The lid fits well enough for a starter, but can vent out excessive pressure if necessary. I use a plastic chopstick to stir up the starter inside the deli container. Not a flimsy disposable one but a thicker one that looks like it might be bone or ivory. It has enough grabbing power to stir up the ingredients but doesn't have spaces (like a fork) or a lot of area to trap dough, and is easy to clean. A table knife also does pretty well, although it does have more area.
TomP
Tom,
Thanks so much for all that great information. I loved your tip about using a chop stick or knife to stir. That's what I have switched over to
Kim
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My starters are all still doing nothing except bubbling a bit. My main starter rose about 1/2" last night, and was light and airy. But it's been 6 days and far from doubling. I've been feeding 1:1:1 every 12 hours based on common practice.
I also have a 100%AP going for fun and a 100%rye going going also. Feeding both 1:1:1 every 12 hours. Both only 1 day old and I'm just experimenting with them.
Question: should I just keep feeding 1:1:1 or a different ratio like 2:1:1?
How do I know when to change the ratio?
It seems like I need to change something since nothing much is happening.
I've been warming the water before adding to the starter. And keeping the starter in the oven with the light on.The temperature of the starter has been 78-81 while in the oven.
Any and all help would be appreciated.
Kim
Your starter is showing some signs of life but not enough for 1:1:1 every 12 hours. And certainly not 1:2:2.
Try 2:1:1 at 12 hourly intervals. This will give the yeasts some food but won't upset the balance at this early stage.
Because you have "over fed" them somewhat. Leave them both for 24 hours since the last feed then concentrate on the 1:1:1 starter by switching to 2:1:1. Because there's not a lot of starter you can feed it without discarding the first time.
With the 1:2:2 leave it for now and just stir every 12 hours. See what it does.
EDIT: After leaving you starter alone for 24 hours follow this method but begin on day 3 and onwards...
https://forum.breadtopia.com/t/developing-a-liquid-levain-culture-sourdough-starter-by-hamelman/
Ok. That makes sense! Thanks so much for the timely reply!!
I fed them again tonight before I posted all this. I will wait until tomorrow night then feed the A2 - 1:1:1.
Then leave the A1 (way overfed, I guess!) and see.
(Hubby said I shouldn't name them until they are really alive
So, basically I overfed them when they didn't need it. Is there a way to tell that by looking at the starter?I f it is not expanding or bubbling does that mean it's not working and doesn't need food?
Does it matter if you stir them up during the day. Or should they simply be undisturbed?
I thought I followed the instructions that was recommended starting out at 1:1, waited 24 hours, then feed every 12 hours at 1:1:1. Maybe I messed up something.
Thanks so much, Abe! I was hoping you would jump in here to help. I followed your responses to others with starter problems and you were able to help them. So, yay!
Got up this morning and my the A2 starter, which I fed 2:1:1 last night almost doubled!
Crazy business!
>>> Should I go ahead and feed it 1:1:1?
A1 didn't do much so I'm going to let it sit until tonight.
The AP is looking good finally, also.
I left them in the oven with the light on, and I covered them with a thin towel. This morning a thin skin covered them all, looking like they got too hot and dried out a bit. I took off the skim and discarded it.
Then I took the temperature and they were all 90°. Golly. I sure hope that wasn't too hot.
Thanks again for everything.
Kim
Carry on with 2:1:1 at 12 hourly intervals for now. If it continues to bubble up with the next feed or two then go back to 1:1:1. And when your starter looks like it has no issue bubbling up with a feed of 1:1:1 then go onto 1:2:2.
90F is very warm when it comes to managing your starter. It will ferment much quicker and you'll constantly need to give it tlc. Is there any place in your home closer to 75F?
I agree with Abe that somewhere a bit cooler would be better but I routinely ferment dough at 86F to get the lactic acid flavor I prefer.
Congratulations Kimberly,
your hard work has paid off. You got yourself an active starter. So nice!
90 degrees F is not too hot. It's the fastest way to obtain a starter, actually. 85-90F range is perfect for the sourdough microorganisms and it is an ideal temperature for all yeasted doughs as well that is why it is used in every bread machine for fermentation.
However, at 90F your starter would then need to be stirred from time to time, punched down to protect its proteins from degrading. Or else the starter will rise to the max and later eventually deflate on its own and you don't want this to happen.
Kim, good morning!
Please mmeasure your starter's pH before feeding it and feed it only when its pH goes down to 4.0-4.5. I use pH strips, I dip them in a starter for a few seconds and see their color change, but a calibrated pH tester is fine as well of course. Then you will have a working starter in no time.
Acidity is more important than bubbles. Once lactic acid bacteria population develops inside your starter and makes your starter sour, yeasts will follow. They always do.
How does your starter smell and taste right now?
Hello, Mariana.
I just saw your reply. So sorry for the delay.
The starter died. I basically killed it because it sat in the sunlight for a few hours on Saturday. And it was doing so good!
So I've started the Hamelen starter with honey and it has done better than anything! I'm pretty excited.
That's very interesting about the pH. I will have to try that next feeding and run some tests on it.
Thanks again.
Thank you all!
I hope this is normal... But my starter did nothing today. Zip.zilch.
Well, they all got frothy and airy. My AP got another skim layer on the top.
I expected my starters to rise some.
I fed them 2:1:1, per Abe's suggestion and hope tomorrow is better.
I left them on a tray on the counter above the running dishwasher where it will act as a warming tray.
Bummer. I kept them outside today (kinda by accident) on the covered porch. It got up to 90. Ug. Praying they survive!
Not bubbling up in 12 hours is not a sign anything has gone wrong. Just give them a good stir and see what happens by tomorrow.
They won't go from healthy to dead in one day. So no worries.
So I woke up this morning and all of the starters appear dead. No activity at all. And I mean, I don't even see bubbles.
It occurred to me that when I sat them on the porch yesterday they actually had some direct sunlight for a few hours (there is a window screen). I had meant to put a solid sunscreen barrier up but didn't get to it in time. It got up to 90°; so hotter with the sun.
I guess I should feed them 2:1:1 again and will do that to two of them as a test.
If by tonight there are still no bubbles I am going to pitch them and start all over using the honey recipe you recommend it above, Abe. I purchased some whole rye flour to try it. I plan on making my own bread flour from my purpose flour.
I know another variable could be the water. We have hard well water that goes through a home house filter and then a reverse osmosis filter. Normally, as an added precaution I have been letting it sit out overnight and then warm it up in the microwave.
Ug. I didn't think this was supposed to be that hard. But - tomorrow's a new day!
You might have cooked the starters. IMO 75-78F is absolutely fine and will be perfect for making a starter. Sometimes in an effort to make things go quicker and trying to find a very warm place you can misjudge it and cook the starter.
I think the best way forward is to follow Hamelman's recipe and find a nice warm stable temperature in your home. Yeast like minerals and while R/O is absolutely fine it does lack minerals. Use tap water that has been boiled and cooled. Or if you're unsure about your tap water then use bottled mineral water that's pH neutral. You don't want alkaline water as your starter is meant to be acidic.
Don't try anything to fancy. The method is good and sound.
Thanks so much Abe.
I am going to start Helmelman's recipe later today and can't wait to see the results!
I have learned so much through this process. It really is a simple recipe but the details matter.
I tested my water with my pH test kit and sure enough my water is super acidic. I was assuming all along that since it was filtered it would be in the middle somewhere and just be fine.
So lesson learned there as well.
Thanks again... I'll be in touch hopefully with good results!
It was alkaline water that I was concerned about. Starters are acidic, or become acidic, and if it has to battle with alkaline water then it'll be detrimental.
Just how acidic is your water as a matter of interest.
My water is about 5.5-6 after filtration. I think it was about 8 straight from the well, hard and alkaline with copper traces. (I want to test is again when I get home. I was in a hurry and not good light.)
Thanks Abe. I'm running around getting ready to go out, taking care of the chickens multitasking and ead your message too fast!
RO water is acidic because CO2 dissolves in it when it is exposed to the air. The pH may be low but the amount of acid is trivial.
Ahhh... Thanks, Gary! Makes sense.
I started the Hamelman's recipe on Sunday night. After 24 hours it has risen and I was confident it was on its way.
I did day two feeding and within 12 hours it had almost doubled! So within 36 hours from initial start, and it was amazing, (considering all the other starters I worked with.)
Thank you so much for this suggestion, Abe. And everyone else's suggestions. I am confident now that this actually does work, but the success is in the details.
At some point I will run more tests but I am starting to think the problem was my wheat berries are so old and were exposed to so much oxygen that they lost much of their protein content. That's just my initial hunch.
But, Yay!!!!
Then you should be baking with it by the weekend.
Since you're following Hamelman's method why not make your first bake Hamelman's Vermont Sourdough?
May I suggest for your first bake you half the recipe and make one loaf to test the starter.
Oh, great suggestion, Abe!
I'm so excited!
This is the 3rd day after 2nd feed. I was expecting more expansion and rise. But I'm going to continue.
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Well done, Kim! Your starter is almost ready. It will begin to rise tall in a day or two.
The initial rising during the first day or two was due to stinky and gassy bacteria (fecal bacteria, the bad stuff from soil which finds its way to flour) which eventually dies out and true sourdough yeasts will grow and leaven your starter (and bread dough).
Stick to the recipe, it will work. You can already see the bubbles on top, eventually, the starter will 'explode', will rise quickly and very high. It might even escape this jar, overflow. Mine does, it more than quarduples in volume. It depends on how strong your flour is.
Thank you so much for that encouragement Mariana.. I am continuing with the recipe!
This morning I saw more bubbles than ever.. So that was super exciting.
Can you give me your advice on storing and feeding once it is ready?
Good morning Kim, glad to hear that your starter is thriving. Good for you! Show us some pictures of your starter's progression please!
I always keep a portion of my starter dry to preserve it. It keeps well for years like that and is aways there as a backup should the "fresh" one change or get killed accidentally. So, please, dry a portion of your starter. It will always be there for you even if you stop baking for long periods of time.
Drying starters is the most traditional way of keeping them in between bakes used when there were no refrigerators and bread was baked once a week or once every two weeks. Some modern bakers use it too even if they bake more frequently, they always use their dried starter.
For the wet or fresh, always ready to use immediately, starter, below is the link for the method taught by the company where Mr. Hamelman teaches and where they sell fresh starter made from white bread flour similar to yours:
https://www.kingarthurbaking.com/recipes/feeding-and-maintaining-your-sourdough-starter-recipe
There is one person here on this forum who recently bought their starter and is very happy with it. You can ask her how she keeps her starter. Her breads look amazingly good, so her advice would work for sure. This is the link to her blog.
My starter is not Hamelman's starter so my method of keeping mine probably won't work for your starter. My starter is more liquid than yours, it sits in the fridge in between bakes and I always feed it 200s:120w:80f three times on a row (12hr, 6hr, 6hr at 77-80F) when I refresh it before baking or after long periods of storage. Because it is so liquid, it usually only doubles within one hour after feeding, becomes a stiff foam that does not deflate no matter how many hours it sits at room temperature unfed.
"Keep [the starter]
CW ALR M and Carry On"Looking Good!
Thank you, Abe.
You've been such a tremendous help and encouragement. I think the sweet spot I found in the basement is helping. It's about a constant 75° to 79°.
I would love to hear your opinion on feeding and storing the starter once it has achieved full potential.
No two bakers keep their starter exactly the same way. No doubt you'll get plenty of advice from everyone here but after keeping and using your starter for a while you'll settle on your own method.
As long as you keep it fed and when not using storing it in the fridge then you can't go wrong.
Once your starter is ready and has passed the bread baking test then you really wish to give it bigger feeds. These smaller feeds are to encourage fermentation while still allowing it to find it's correct pH level. However once a starter is strong a little can inoculate a lot and it'll keep it healthy. In other words healthy feeds = a healthy starter.
I'm a firm believer of refrigerating a starter, after it's been fed, once it has bubbled up and matured. Some like to refrigerate earlier but I think it's better for a starter to build up a healthy amount of yeast and bacteria before refrigeration.
A low hydration whole rye starter can last in the fridge for longer than a high hydration bread flour starter. If you do keep a high hydration bread flour starter then feed at least once a week.
If any hooch forms then carefully pour off before feeding. Some people like to stir it back in hoping it'll make their starters more tangy. I don't think this is good for the starter when it comes to flavour or health.
One good way of keeping a starter is to build a little extra levain and keep the excess in the fridge as starter for next time.
For now it's all theory and sounds daunting. However once you get into the rhythm of caring for and using your starter then it really is simple. Best thing is not to over think it. Starter is just that bit left over to continue the process.
No two bakers keep their starter exactly the same way. No doubt you'll get plenty of advice from everyone here but after keeping and using your starter for a while you'll settle on your own method.
This is very well said, and it is a tipoff that the starter process and environment are very tolerant of variations. So don't worry about following some particular prescription, and keep at it until you find a combination that gives you good results and is easy and convenient for you.
My own standard starter is 100% hydration all-purpose flour kept in the refrigerator. I generally let it warm up 4 or 5 hours before using it, and after use I feed it. If it's been unused for a week, or starts to thin out or get soupy, I warm it up, discard most of it, and feed it. This starter gives me rich, mellow, and buttery tasting breads. But it won't give much if any sour (which is usually fine with me).
TomP
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It does have more bubbles today which is a good thing but I think I was expecting a little bit more by now.
I'm still waiting for that explosion and expansion to occur.
Will that happen or is it actually ready to use now?
I'll try to upload another photo.
5 days is very young for a new starter. Carry on with the recipe and see what happens over the next couple of days.
If you want try an experiment with the discard build an off-shoot starter.
Hamelman's levain is 125% hydration. So in 45g starter there will be 25g water + 25g flour. If we then feed that 90g flour and 63g water you'll have a healthy 1:2 feed and it'll now be 80% hydrated.
Let's see how it responds.
P.s. from here on in there's no need to waste the discard. Store in the fridge and you make things like pancakes, waffles and banana bread with it.
Good morning, Abe.
I will carry on!
And may try that additional recipe with the discard.
I have a question for you:
On day two of Hamelman's recipe he says to use 90° water. He does not have that for the feedings on day 3 4 5. But I just realized that I have actually been doing that.
Should I discontinue making the water 90° and just make it room temperature?
The starter has been in a warm area between 75 and 80 though, consistently.
Thanks!
Since it's morning for you and afternoon for me i'm assuming you're in the US!? I never had the means of taking the temperature of the water and using when exactly 90F. I just used boiled and cooled water and it was an added bonus if it was still warm. Since it is warm where you are it shouldn't make a difference. I'd be very interested to see how the off-shoot starter fares. It is a healthier feed and at a lower hydration. If it rises well then it'll tell us a lot about the health of your starter.
Good morning, Kim!
If what is written on the jar (2:1:1) is how you feed it, then what you have in your jar is not Hamelman's starter.
Hamelman's starter is fed approximately 2:1:1 only twice in its life, on day 2 (i.e. its second and third feedings are 200s:90f:90w 12 hours apart, kept at 75-80F).
Days 3, 4, and 5 are feeding it generously: 200starter : 180white flour : 225g water, twice a day (every 12 hours), kept at 75-80F
Then by day six, the culture should have enough ripeness to be used for bread baking.
In order to continue developing strength and complexity (more good bacteria), it may be fed for 2-3 more days before beginning to use it, says Hamelman. In that case, follow the same feeding schedule as for days three, four and five.
So, for that explosion and expansion to occur please, follow Hamelman's instructions. Switch to feeding it 2:1:1, or, as Hamelman instructs, to feeding it 200s:180f:225w. And you will see it rising. Right now, your starter is starving, it has been starving for 3 days in a row, and its gluten is digested so it is unable to rise. So it won't rise, obviously. Thank God, you provided the photos. Now we know what is going on and why it behaves that way.
Mariana,
Ha! I realized I had that on the jar and it was not the correct recipee and would have been confusing. So I have deleted it.
Sorry about that.
But thanks so much for the information and explanation. I greatly appreciate any and all advice as I am getting started!
Kimberly
Here is the recipe that I have been following to a T!
Day One. Initial Mix:
Mix the ingredients well, cover with plastic and let stand in a warm area (75° - 80°F) for 24 hours. Medium rye flour can be used in place of whole rye but avoid using white rye flour.
________________________________________________________________________________________
Day Two. Two Feedings:
Mix the ingredients well, cover with plastic and let stand in a warm area (75° - 80°F). Ideally, the 2 feedings should be 12 hours apart. The white flour should be an unbleached bread flour with 11-12% protein.
________________________________________________________________________________________
Days Three, Four and Five. Two Feedings:
Mix the ingredients well, cover with plastic and let stand in a warm area (75° - 80°F). Ideally, the 2 feedings should be 12 hours apart. By day six the culture should have enough ripeness to be used for bread production. In order to continue developing strength and complexity it may be fed for 2 - 3 more days before using. In that case follow the same feeding schedule.
Kimberley, thank your for clarifying. Now I understand : )
I looked into Hamelman's book and what you copied is an error from Hamelman's book which is not your fault of course. The editors missed it.
The correct recipe in grams is as follows
Day One. Initial Mix.
300g whole rye flour
10g honey
375g water (can be cold or room temperature, not warm)
You can use smaller amounts at home: 100 g whole rye flour, 3.3g honey, 125g water.
Mix the ingredients well, cover with plastic, and let stand in a warm area (75 to 80f) for 24 hours. Medium rye flour can be used in place of whole rye, but avoid using white rye flour.
Day Two. Two Feedings
200g of initial mix
90g whole rye flour
90g white flour
225g water, 90F
You can use smaller amounts: 111 initial mix, 50 g whole rye flour, 50 g white four, 125 g 90F water.
Mix the ingredients well, cover with plastic, and let stand in a warm area (75 to 80F). Ideally, the 2 feedings should be 12 hours apart. The white flour should be an unbleached bread flour with 11-12% protein.
Days three, four, and five. Two feedings.
200g initial mix
180g white flour
225 g water (any temperature, not warm)
of course, you can cut all numbers in half at home: 111g initial mix, 100g flour, 125g water.
Mix the ingredients well, cover with plastic, and let stand in a warm area (75 to 80F). Ideally, the two feedings should be 12 hours apart. By day six, the culture should have enough ripeness to be used for bread production, In order to continue developing strength and complexity (heterofermentative bacteria), however, it may be fed for 2 0or 3 more days before beginning to use it. In that case, follow the same feeding schedule as for days three, four, and five.
By then you are done and can dry a sample of your starter and store the remainder in the fridge, or bake with it.
This is how Hamelman's starter (liquid levain culture) looks when ready in my kitchen. It more than quadruples in volume, rising from 1/2 cup to 2 1/2 cups in volume.
My flour is very dry, so your starter might be more liquid and would only double or triple. But in no case it should look like in your pictures on day 5. Your starter has been clearly starving, underfed for 3 days in a row, its proteins are gone, so it is unable to rise.
Abe gave you a good advise though. Feed it with abundant flour and water to rescue it. Then go back to the correct proportions for Hamelman's starter.
Best wishes,
M.
Hello Abe and Mariana.
golly. I can't believe the problems and challenges I am having with sourdough starters? I'm going on almost 4 weeks now! But still learning a lot and perservering. I will get this right!
But...are you saying, Mariana, that the recipe that I used is wrong? I got the recipe from the link that you posted above, Abe. So does that need to be changed?
Regardless I am moving forward.
But I am confused.
I'm going to do what you said Abe and experiment with an 85% hydration using the s/f/w 45/90/63. And call that B.
But what do I do with A, the original starter?
Should I continue to feed it the 156/68/85? Or start feeding it the 111/100 /125?
Also I feel like I should feed it right now instead of waiting another 6 hours. Wouldn't that be better? If it is starving?
Thank you both so much for taking the time to help me with this process. I do believe it work--- eventually!!!
I see no issues. Your starter looks very healthy.
Build the off-shoot starter like I recommended and with the original switch to...
It is simple, still keeps it 125% hydration and no need to sweat a few grams here and there.
Try stretching it out. Perhaps don't wait the full 12 hours. Perhaps feed it at the 10 hour mark and then get back on track tomorrow morning.
There's no one perfect way. You've got to play it by ear a bit.
I got that recipe from his book. I'll look into it. When I followed it it seemed to work perfectly but when I saw it had matured nicely, since it wasn't my first starter, I started to switch the feeds anyway.
I'm going to do what you said Abe and experiment with an 85% hydration using the s/f/w 45/90/63. And call that B.
But what do I do with A, the original starter?
Should I continue to feed it the 156/68/85? Or start feeding it the 111/100 /125?
Kimberly, please don't stress so much about the details. If you want to do an experiment a la Abe, sure, go ahead. Can't hurt, probably will help. For part A, Mariana has said something really helpful, that there is a mistake somewhere in the published numbers. So with Part A, go with her corrected amounts.
Just remember, if your culture doesn't have a disease and if it's fed "enough", the organisms will grow. What's "enough"? I have always found that new flour = old starter has worked well. The amount of water will determine the hydration and so some details and speed of fermentation, but that much flour seems to be good. More within reason would be fine too,
What would happen if you didn't provide enough flour? The yeast cells would multiply until they ran out of food or oxygen, and they would do this before your next feeding period came around. With enough food but not enough oxygen in the water they would start to produce CO2 and alcohol. If there weren't many yeast cells, you wouldn't see much happening. If they ran out of food (not enough flour), they wouldn't multiply or create gas, and you wouldn't see much happening.
What would happen if you added way too much flour and water than called for? Probably nothing bad, but there is a possibility that your mixture of organisms wouldn't have enough numbers compared with the new ones being introduced by the large addition, and that could work against arriving at a stable culture for a while longer (but you'd end up with lots of yeast).
But this would not be a question of using say 100:111:85 vs 100:100:100. It would be maybe 100:1000:800, or something like that.
Also I feel like I should feed it right now instead of waiting another 6 hours. Wouldn't that be better? If it is starving?
Right on. Here's what we want to achieve:
- Give the yeast enough food to last until the next feed if not longer;
- Give the culture enough water so that it has enough oxygen to multiply for (at least part of) the way to the next feeding;
- Don't wildly over-feed, to give your culture the best chance of settling down into a stable mixture of organisms.
The second item is the one whose goal can change as your culture develops. At the beginning, you need to get the yeast to multiply as much as possible, so it needs lots of food and water. Towards the end, you want it to settle down into a stable mixture, have lots of yeast, and be generating gas. So you might use less water towards the end. (I never bothered with that, though, and just kept things at 100% hydration).
It's just like people, really. If you are hungry, you eat and if it turns out you didn't eat enough, you may want to snack before the next meal. But you don't have to worry about whether you ate .8 or 1 or 1.2 hamburgers and drank 1/2 vs 1 glass of water.
T,
Thank you so much for that great explanation and encouragement!
I am so thankful for all the safe advice I am receiving here and would have given up long ago without it!
So thanks again!
Kimberly
Good morning, everyone.
Hear for my morning starter check up from North Carolina!
I followed everyone's advice and fed last night at 5:00 p.m. instead of 7:00 p.m.
I used Abe's ratios:
This this morning the only change was the bubbles appeared frothier but there was no rise at all.
I'm stumped. But will continue feeding this every 12 hours.
One thing I have not asked about is the stirring and mixing. I'm using a spoon and mixing the starter before a discard and begin the next feeding. Should I be eliminating that stir and just pour the starter right in for the new feed or does that matter? It seems trivial but then I figured everything else seems to make some difference and it's one thing I am not asked about.
The 'B' starter which had the 85% hydration actually seemed to rise a bit. So that was encouraging. But I thought it was very difficult to work with. This morning I added a little bit more water to the feed ratio so we'll see how that goes.
What do you all think? Should I just continue as is or make any changes?
Again I appreciate any and all advice!
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Why are you stumped. There's clearly fermentation going on.
Repeat both feeds...
1: the Hamelman levain:
2: the off-shoot starter: now that it's been converted to a lower hydration starter feed as follows...
Giving it a good stir before feeding can only do good.
Are you transferring to a new container with every feed? Sounds like you are. No need! All the yeast and good bacteria are making a home in the container. With good maintenance it'll be self cleaning. Transferring the whole time only risks contamination.
Awesome!
See that's another great tip that I haven't heard from anybody, Abe! I will continue using the same jar. It sure will make it easier as well.
At this point I think it will be a miracle when it starts to actually rise and double in size! I know I am being impatient. But it is discouraging when the recipe says it will be ready in 5 or 6 days. Ha! I have read where some take 21 days and I think that might be me!
Thanks again, Abe.
The Hamleman is fed 1:1 at 125% hydration as he asks for.
The off-shoot one is fed 1:2 @ 80% hydration.
So you have a healthier feed with the off-shoot starter. See which one responds better.
It's all about making slight adjustments here and when reading the starter. Letting the starter dictate when it needs a feed and how much. It's going well!
There's another ingredient people forget about - patience!
Once you have a starter, your hands and much of your kitchen will be covered with it. Then you'll be able to make a new starter in a few days. It will probably be your old starter. I think most authors who say you can create a starter in a few days are actually cross contaminating.
Your picture looks good to me. I would think it indicates you'll have a good starter in a few more days.
Stirring before discard is probably useful if you see a lot of separation (like thin on top and thick on the bottom) because you don't want to accidentally discard the part with a high concentration of organisms. Of course you will be stirring again to incorporate the new flour and water.
Just add the new flour and water to the old container after you have discarded any excess. The old container will contain some extra organisms which a new one will not. Plus washing all those containers is a nuisance. I might clean out and wash my starter container once or at most twice a year - don't worry about some crusty buildup unless it gets very discolored and smells bad (this doesn't happen to me).
What's that you say? How can you know how much of the old starter is left before feeding again? That is, if you plan to have 75 grams of old starter, but you just use the old container without cleaning it, how much is really in there? Well, after you have done it once you should have a reasonable idea of what that 75 g looks like. And beyond that, as I keep saying, the exact details don't matter much if at all.
However, working with larger quantities makes it a little easier to come close to those target weights. Personally, I tend to feed/refresh with 3 oz of flour and 3 oz of water. 3 oz is 85 grams. So your 100 gr is right in the same range. Imagine if you tried to work with say 1 gr feedings - that would be really hard to manage!
About 85% hydration being hard to work with - do you mean that it's hard to stir in the new flour and water? That's why I like to use 100% hydration instead! It's not about whether the culture will grow better that way, it's about my ease and convenience. The culture will develop nicely either way.
Thank you. T!
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Here are my two starters this morning. Still bubbly and frothy.
I did make one small change to the feed this morning.
Instead of using the reverse osmosis, boiled-then-cool water, I switched over to using my tap water. This comes from the well on our property and is ran through a water softener to remove the hardness.
I read last night to not use reverse osmosis water or hard water.
Any thoughts???
So we shall see!
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Looks good n frothy. Not much rise but still healthy looking. How about for the liquid starter we increase the feed to...
This will now be a feed of 1:2 @ 125% hydration.
R/O is not bad per se. It just removes all the minerals that's like vitamins for the starter. Not concerned about the hardness of your water. It's more about additives like chlorine. When I use tap water i'll use it boiled and cooled. Although that's more out of habit and my starter seems to do well either way. Not sure what you local water is like.
Try the new feed and see what happens. If it slows down or doesn't look as active after 12 hours then hold back and don't do anything rash till you've reported back. If it looks as healthy, or more, then feed again the same ratios on time.
What's the lower hydration starter like?
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👍
Still looking good.
As for well water, I used fairly hard well water for years when I lived in New Mexico. No starter problems at all. I'd be more concerned about the salts introduced by the water softener, though I don't know anything definite in this area so this thought may be nothing but smoke.
Instead of RO, I would lean toward a bottled drinking water. They tend to have more minerals so as to taste better. But again, I don't actually know if that would matter at all.
I differ from Abe a bit here. He's suggesting using a relatively high hydration here. I would suggest moving to 100% instead. That hydration will hold larger gas bubbles and show itself rising more prominently than a higher hydration. So you *might* get a clearer signal that the starter is able to raise itself.
But that's not much more than a nit.
Still looking good.
As for well water, I used fairly hard well water for years when I lived in New Mexico. No starter problems at all. I'd be more concerned about the salts introduced by the water softener, though I don't know anything definite in this area so this thought may be nothing but smoke.
Instead of RO, I would lean toward a bottled drinking water. They tend to have more minerals so as to taste better. But again, I don't actually know if that would matter at all.
I differ from Abe a bit here. He's suggesting using a relatively high hydration here. I would suggest moving to 100% instead. That hydration will hold larger gas bubbles and show itself rising more prominently than a higher hydration. So you *might* get a clearer signal that the starter is able to raise itself.
But that's not much more than a nit.
As we're following Hamleman. He uses a 125% hydration starter and many of his recipes build a 125% hydration levain.
We also have an 80% hydration off-shoot starter.
They seem to be going well. I agree that 100% hydration is more no fuss though.
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Unbleached organic bread flour is absolutely fine. And from King Arthur too. He is, or was, the bakery director at King Arthur. His recipes are lovely.
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From what I've read I should go ahead and mix that in and then I will follow the following ratio based on Abe's current suggestion of:
'60g starter / 150g water / 120g flour' 1:2
Or should I proceed differently?
I like there is a change!
It's separation. Hooch is a dark liquid. It's looking really good!
I'm now thinking that we were using 125% hydration simply because we were following Hamelman's recipe. Now that your starter is maturing nicely perhaps for simplicity and ease we should switch to a 100% hydration feed.
Feed on schedule but with a slight change.
If it was hooch i'd say not to stir back in, my own preference, but since it's separation give it a good stir before feeding.
Oh, wow! Obviously I didn't know that!
Ok. So does separation mean it's hungry? Should I feed now or wait until the 22 hour mark?
Thanks again!
Just means it's not absorbing all the water properly. That and through fermentation it will become more liquid. Wait until it's time to feed again.
You should aim to feed it every 12 hours. For now.
Should I go ahead and stir it up now? Or just wait?
Or does it not matter?!? Haha!
When it comes to the feed just give it a really good stir.
It's coming along very nicely.
I agree with Abe. When you see hooch, it's dark and still. You won't be seeing bubbles at the top like your picture shows. Things are looking good!
We'll be switching to 100% hydration. Clearly it's too hydrated for the flour being used.
Good to see time and patience paying off and a starter coming to life.
I think I'm going to stop the B starter. Since the hydration is more similar now and it is
notreacting almost the same it seems.From the photo before it looked like it was doing really well.
Oh golly. Major typo..I meant to say it IS reacting the same!!!
Yes, it would be easier to concentrate on one. If you want to try that then put starter B in the fridge. It'll be fine while you concentrate on starter A.
Should all go well then just discard it or use it up in a different recipe. If anything goes wrong then you've got it as a back-up.
That sounds like a perfect plan. Thanks for that suggestion.
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I'm continuing.
In the meantime, I started a different offshoot starter for testing last week. Kept the 50/50 rye/white starter blend and about 100% hydration (1:1:1).
Last night it rose quite a bit. I've read where you can add some rye with the white to help with the rise.
What would be the pros and cons to doing this?
Thanks, all!
The first two photos are the blend. I'm calling it 'blend' starter.
The second two photos are the original A starter which is being fed with 100% bread flour.
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You thought having two starters was too much but in reality you had three going?
Abe, yes! Haha!
I still have the B. And I can continue with it if you think I should. My thought was the A and B were almost the same hydration and acting the same. I read somewhere about keeping the rye / bread blend so figured why not give it a go and see what happens.
Does that make sense?
I appreciate all your help and advice.
And now your starter looks worse! It should have gone from strength to strength but doesn't look as healthy as yesterday.
Skip one feed. Give it a very good stir instead.
Tonight try a 1:1:1 feed using the other water source.
If B starter is behaving better then repeat feed using original water source.
I do have a gallon of bottled spring water I could switch to if you think it would matter.
Thanks!
Worth a try.
Ok. I'l try it.
Alive with some bubbles. No rise yet.
I skipped a feed last night and will proceed with the 1:1:1 ratio using the bottled spring water.
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The rye/bread mix looks great and almost doubled last night.
I've been feeding it 50/50 flour with a 1:1:1 ratio. It's happy.
Now for the next stage of this life change: I'm going to attempt first loaf today!
Updates to come.
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If it's doubled, you are in business!
Remember that new starters normally keep evolving over time (probably giving even better flavors).
Now that you seems to have a real starter, remember that if you leave it in the refrigerator (or on the countertop for that matter) without feeding for some time - days or a week - it may turn thin or even soupy. In that case, just discard most of it, refresh it a few times, and it will come back to life in great fashion.
I think you should make things simple, retire the slower starter and concentrate on this healthy looking starter.
No need to make your life more complicated keeping two on the go. Especially when one is not doing as good as the other.
It is interesting when you swapped the water it slowed the higher hydration one down and the back-up you had using the other source of water just went from strength to strength. Keep using the water source that produced the healthier looking starter.
By all means try your first loaf but just remember the starter continues to improve over time and usually the first bread is just a trial and error to see how ell it works.
Congrats on your starter.
Just remind us, if you would, what water you have been using for this starter? I've lost track.
I used tap water for one feeding then bottled spring water last night for the rye/flour blend.
I used tap water for the bread flour starter yesterday morning then skipped the feeding last night.
I was about to discard the bread flour one, but the scientist in me wants to try and figure out why I couldn't get it to rise. I'm going to give it a go for at least another one more feeding using the bottled water to see if that's the key. I know my tap water is very hard and full of minerals also.
I was about to discard the bread flour one, but the scientist in me wants to try and figure out why I couldn't get it to rise.
Probably because bread flour has little to no yeast. They may be all flushed out by now. If you give it a feeding with whole grain flour to reseed, you may get it moving along.
Best wishes,
dw
Why is that, Debra? I've been thinking that bread flour would be the same as all-purpose from the point of view of getting a starter going. I would have preferred AP, but only because it's easier to get in my supermarket.
TomP
I've been thinking that bread flour would be the same as all-purpose from the point of view of getting a starter going.
Yes Tom, you're right. But because they are both refined (white) flour. Both have had the outer layer (bran) removed which is where the yeast in flour comes from. So most of the yeast ends up removed as well. The startup process is more dependable with whole grain flour unless your kitchen is used to seeing lots of sourdough action ;)
My best,
dw
Ah, thanks, Debra. Pretty much as I thought, then. Sure, whole grain is more likely to get a new starter going than either AP or bread flour.
Once someone gets to baking a lot with sourdough, I bet it would be almost impossible not to be able to create a new starter even from all white flour - just because there would be no getting away from the yeast everywhere including on the baker and the utensils.
TomP
but then, it wouldn't be an all-new starter, would it? ...
In biodiversity studies on bakery sourdoughs, it's referred to as carryover from the "in-house microbiota." The bakery itself contributes to the inoculation. A home kitchen can have the same effect if enough sourdough is made in it over time.
It's not uncommon for students in a baking school to start a starter on a Monday and be baking with it by Thursday or Friday, but when they go home and try to start one up using the same procedure (feeding 2x per day), things don't go so smoothly
dw
It's not uncommon for students in a baking school to start a starter on a Monday and be baking with it by Thursday or Friday, but when they go home and try to start one up using the same procedure (feeding 2x per day), things don't go so smoothly.
I can believe it! I remember reading about one eminent baker (I forget who) who agreed to come from California to NY, either to compete or to give demos (it's been too long to recall exactly). He didn't bring his old regular wooden mixing bowl, and used new utensils supplied to him by the hosts.
His starter wouldn't work right.
Debra,
That is amazing! And now that makes perfect sense to me why I couldn't get my starter going. Incredible. Wow.
I realized how powerful the rye flour was from the beginning and after a few days of the white flour not gaining strength I decided to go 50/50 with an offshoot start. Bingo. That's the one that worked.
Wow. Thank you so much for all of that information. I was really starting to think it was going to be impossible.
Since I was using a high quality flour, I figured it had to be the water that 2as preventing the rise. I was about to ask opinions on if the material of the spoon mattered (some say no metal spoons!)
How long do you think I should continue with the 50/50 blend for feeds?
When do you think I could I switch over all purpose flour?
Thanks again.
Kimberly
If the conditions are right, the one feed will probably be enough. Either whole wheat or whole rye can provide the yeast it needs, but they seldom activate until the starter gets really tart. So now, it's time to wait and let the pH fall. If it's already low enough, then it will happen soon. If not, then you can just stir it and scrape the sides clean without refreshing (to keep mold at bay) and give it an extra day or two to gain in acidity before feeding again. Don't worry, it isn't going to starve. You can switch back to AP when it starts to rise. I'm guessing from your photos that it's gotten stuck in the 3rd phase because it seems to have a lot of tiny bubbles. Does it liquify between feedings? That would be a sign as well.
From The Pineapple Juice Solution, Part 2
The Third Phase:
The starter will become very tart like lemon juice---an indication of more acid production by more acid-tolerant bacteria. The gluten may disappear and tiny bubbles become more noticeable. These are signs that heterofermentative lactobacilli have picked up the baton. Once a starter becomes really sour, it usually transitions into phase four within a day or two. Note that lactic acid doesn't have much aroma, and so smell is not a reliable way to judge the level of sourness. If it gets stuck here for 48 hours or more, make sure there's still enough whole grain in the mix and give it more time between refreshments.
The Fourth Phase:
Yeast start to grow and populate the starter relatively quickly at this point. It will expand with gas bubbles all over and begin to take on the yeasty smell of bread or beer.
My best,
dw
I may have misunderstood which starter you are asking about.
How long do you think I should continue with the 50/50 blend for feeds?
If this is about the starter that is already rising, then the rye gave you what you needed and you should be good to go. You can switch to AP any time and keep feeding it twice a day (if it slows down, adjust the amounts as needed). My mantra: before yeast don't feed too much; after yeast don't feed too little. You want to feed for the stage it's in.
Sorry if my previous response caused confusion.
dw
Ah... Thank you for that additional information. I should have clarified.
I was referring to the 50-50 blend and would like to convert it to all purpose.
Can bread flour and all-purpose be used interchangeably with the starter?
I mean 1) to get it started and then 2)for feeding?
Thank you again so much!
Can bread flour and all-purpose be used interchangeably with the starter?
I think they will act the same for feeding, or if not, that you won't be able to tell the difference consistently. I use AP because my supermarket doesn't always have bread flour.
Note that the effective hydration of the starter will be a little lower for the bread flour since its higher protein content will absorb more water than AP. But that's minor.
The two would probably be about the same for getting a new starter going. To wit: it may work but as you have been finding out it's more reliable to start with some or all whole grains.
TomP
I was referring to the 50-50 blend and would like to convert it to all purpose.
Gotya. You should be good to convert any time. Sourdough Starter Care and Use
Can bread flour and all-purpose be used interchangeably with the starter? I mean 1) to get it started and then 2) for feeding?
To get it started is a gamble as you saw. (See my photo below.) For feeding, either is fine. And you can bake with it now, that's also fine. Just understand that it is still in transition and stabilizing. Pay attention to how it smells going forward and on different flours. I like to feed mine whichever flour is bringing out the best fragrance, because it contributes so much to flavor.
This photo shows the day 2 expansion in 3 starters begun at the same time, side by side on the same feeding regimen. No pineapple juice, just flour and water fed daily. The only difference between them was the flour, and that remained the same from start to finish --- finish being when yeast started growing and the starters started expanding again after this initial bacterial rise and subsequent lull. The jar on the left was started and refreshed with 100% white flour. The middle jar was 50-50 white and whole wheat blend. The jar on the right was 100% whole wheat.
This shows what they looked like on day two --- like an escalator going up. The whole wheat started rising first, a couple hours later the blend, and an equal time after that the white started its upward climb. It doesn't seem like much of a difference at this point to be just a few hours different, but the disparity just amplified from there. The whole wheat was growing yeast and rising on day 7, the blend took 10 days, and after 14 days, the white was still showing no signs of rise.
The moral is, if you want to give yourself the best chance in the least time, use 100% whole grain until you have active yeast. After that, switch to the flour of your choice.
My best,
dw
Debra,
I think I have gone through about 8-9 starters over the past month (not sure if you read through the weeds above, but I killed 4 of them after a week by leaving them on the porch and they fried in the hot sun!)
Anyway, I had pretty much the same exact experience: no rise with the white flour, and the best rise with the whole rye.
What is interesting to me is that so many recipes had you switch over to white flour on the 3rd day (including the one I was using). And when I did that was when it started to lose strength, regardless of what I tried: hydration, water, temperature, etc. The only thing that helped was adding the whole rye flour back to the mix.
I like your advice: don't switch to white flour until AFTER you have active yeast. That makes complete sense to me now and fits my experience.
Onto baking!
Kimberly
Thanks so much, Abe, for all your encouragement and advice! I do hope I don't kill it now!
Kim
Thank you!
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I fed the original almost-dead starter 100% whole rye this morning and it popped right up!
Yay! I am leary about switching right back to white flour though and think I will do half and half for a few days to further increase it's strength.
Your advice was spot on, Debra! Thanks again.
It was the water that caused it to slow down. You were following Jeffrey Hamleman's method which starts off as wholegrain after which is slowly turned into a bread flour starter. So it did have all the good stuff in the starter and it was doing well! Then you switched the water and it came to a near stop. You've left it alone for a day or two then fed it again. Which is what it needed. Might have done that no matter what flour it was fed.
And what do you think the starter will be fed when making bread from bread flour? A dough is just a big starter feed, at a lower hydration and with salt.
Thank you, Abe.
It really didn't seem like the water made that drastic of a change really. Not compared to adding the whole flour back into it.
But you are right... Maybe just feeding it white flour after the rest would have done the same thing.
But who knows! At some point I would love to do a full scientific method experiment on it to find out! Was it the water,? The flour? The time? Or a combination of the three?
Regardless, I greatly appreciate all of your help in getting me here.
Kimberly
Good evening, Abe.I was thinking about what you said with the water... How you thought it caused the starter to stop.
The comments you made: 'you were following Jeffrey Hamleman's method which starts off as wholegrain after which is slowly turned into a bread flour starter. ' got me thinking.
His recipe that I followed had you switching over to 100% bread flour on the 3rd day. Which would be quick, not slow, right?
Anyway, it's all good now. Both my starters are doing amazing and I will probably put the rye in the fridge for a backup
Have a great day!
Kimberly
Your starter looked like it was doing well. Clearly there was fermentation going on. Then you switched the water and it seemed to stop. But you only switched the water with one of them. The one you left alone, put in the fridge and you only fed it with the seemingly better water source did not slow down. Just an educated guess.
Jeffrey Hamelman starts off with 100% rye. Adds honey and doesn't feed again for 24 hours. By which time there is some activity. Then the second feed is 50:50. And the third feed onto bread flour. So it had a hefty rye flour feed and by the time the flour is switched activity has started. Even when switching to bread flour it'll take a while to completely change the starter.
So while maintaining a starter with wholegrain rye can only do it good it shouldn't have suffered as it had enough yeast activity on day six where it was doing quite well. Once the yeast shows up it should go from strength to strength and i'm sure the yeast were there.
Anyhow you seem to have a nice starter going there. The rest is learning curve.
Edit: If you want to do an experiment take some of your starter and in a small jar feed it with the suspect water source. See how it reacts. This will satisfy your curiosity and then you'll know for sure if that water source is ok for future feedings.
You can take a small part of it and feed it with your desired bread flour or AP, and just set the rest of it aside for a few hours (or feed it too, with your blend). See what it does with white flour only. It is growing yeast now, so I bet it will do fine :)