Whole Wheat Sourdough Starter
Has anyone tried making a sourdough starter from whole wheat flour?
I'm thinking the higher ash content of ww flour might help in my never-ending quest for more lactic-acid sourness.
Note that the old SFSD recipes state that clear flour was used for the sponge. I've tried this and it didn't work too well. In addition, it seems that ww flour has higher ash content than clear flour (0.6%).
If you've made a ww starter, how did it work out and how did it affect the flavor of the bread? I can pick up KA ww flour at the market next door, whereas I would have to order first-clear flour and have it shipped.
Some people have suggested using rye flour but I'm hesitant to switch grains. As far as I can tell, SFSD was made entirely with wheat flour and I'm aiming for authenticity.
For the first time in a long time, I don't have any starter in the fridge, so it's time to start a ww starter from scratch.
I got these values from KA a few years ago:
Whole Wheat: 1.5%
All-Purpose: 0.5%
Bread Flour: 0.5%
Clear: 0.8%
I calculated that 70% KA AP or Bread flour + 30% WW will get you approximately the same ash level as their clear, although the composition and flavor aren't going to be the same.
I have looked at sourdough recipes from Mike Giraudo and Theresa Greenway and they both call for long periods of proofing in the refrigerator, say greater than 12 hours, up to 32 hours.
I have hit the bullseye in terms of SFSD flavor, but in order to do this I proofed for about 23 hours at 30 C (86 F). The flavor was spot on but the dough was way overproofed and batter-like.
Debra, can you illuminate this? How can one get the flavor associated with long proofing but without the gluten degradation? Does refrigeration do the trick?
Note that the old S.F. bakeries kept their sponge refrigerated continuously and replenished it every 8 hours. They were baking 24/7 so would use up the starter as it was made.
Thank you.
Hmm, I don't think cold fermentation was part of the traditional process. At least I've never read that in any of those older articles about it. In the ones that I read (of the few that are available), the starter was kept warm and fed mostly every 8 hours, but at least twice per day to maintain leavening. I think the cold fermentation is a modern interpretation of what it takes to achieve sourness. But that sourness comes at an increased percentage of acetic acid, which I don't really associate with SFSD from my limited taste recollections of the 1970's. From things you've written all along, I think you would agree that it was more of a lactic sour.
I may be wrong as it's been a while since I've looked into it, but I seem to recall something of a short warm bulk fermentation followed by a relatively long warm proof. I say relatively, because I don't think it was more than about 8 hours or so. But certainly not a day or day and a half.
I think the starter needs to be very lively, which means regular and frequent feedings. I don't see how you can get around that in this application. I also think it being stiff is important, not because that makes a starter more sour, it doesn't, but because it brings less proteolytic activity and more leavening power, which puts you in a better starting place for those warm fermentations ahead.
First clear flour for the levain makes sense, since buffering capacity kind of sets the ceiling on the amount of lactic acid that can be produced, and you can produce more with higher ash. But strong white flour for the final dough also makes sense since refined white flours have less proteolytic enzymes to activate as well as more gluten forming potential. Warmth is the key to producing lactic acid quickly. Everything was historically done warm and with a starter that was maintained a certain way.
Because they were maintained the way they were, the main bacterium running through all the big SF sourdough bakery cultures was L. sf. (currently Fructilactobacillus sanfranciscensis). Perhaps its presence is non-negotiable for the right flavor profile. It is seldom found in starters that aren't maintained continuously outside of the refrigerator, and so, not very likely to be found in a home baker's starter. If you want to improve your odds of getting it, you can try what I did the summer before last, and inoculate one with diverse plant materials, namely an assortment of wildflowers.
I don't think any of those things are arbitrary. But unfortunately, knowing that doesn't make it any easier. And they say panettone is the Mt Everest of sourdough ...
Debra -
Thank you for your thoughtful reply.
Acetic acid is vinegar, so if a bread had a preponderance of acetic acid one would expect it to taste vinegary. The old-school SFSD breads definitely did not taste vinegary so I would conclude that lactic acid dominated the flavor profile.
That said, a few years ago I had some Boudin and it definitely DID taste vinegary, unlike the SFSD's of the '60s and '70s.
You say a cold ferment would encourage acetic acid formation. That's discouraging and not what I had hoped for. Agreed that it's not practical for a home baker to maintain a sponge in the same manner as the sourdough factories of old. Acme sourdough, OTOH, does have a distinct lactic-acid sourness reminiscent of the old breads, only it is significantly milder.
I was able to get a strong lactic-acid sourness exactly once using the USDA patented method. Since then, every time I have tried making it, I've been unable to duplicate the sourness of my first bake, which was knock-your-socks-off sour. It's easy to make; you simply strain the whey off of some plain yogurt. Below is the recipe if anyone wants to try it:
Straight Dough Method
Dry yeast is rehydrated and the following ingredients are combined at low speed mixing:
Ingredients -------------------------------------- Parts by Weight
Flour 100%
Water 35%
Yeast, instant dry 1.25%
Salt 2.0%
Acid whey (28% TS, 2.4% TA) 25.0%
Vinegar (50 grain, 5% table strength) 7.0%
TS=Total Solids, TA=Titratable acidity.
The ingredients are then mixed at high speed to optimum gluten development. The fully developed dough is then scaled, fermented for 3 hours, molded, and proofed to height at 98-100 F., 90% RH. (relative humidity). The fully proofed dough is then baked into bread or rolls or partially baked for finishing at a future time.
The reason I'm so focused on ash content is because of this post from "Sourdough Sam"
https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/6815/how-develop-sour-flavor-sourdough
One omission from Sam’s steps that ties in with Debra’s comments…. You have to have the right biology in the starter to begin with. If the right mix and species of bacteria/yeast aren’t in your starter at final mix, they won’t be there at the end of fermentation regardless of ash content.
That said, I’ve used whole wheat to successfully make a starter using this method. I followed this method but used 100% whole wheat for the initial flour. When I started feeding, I switched to bread flour. The thought being to get the biology of the whole wheat and then maintain it with bread flour. It was an excellent and vibrant starter, but with my work schedule and baking once a week, I couldn’t keep up with the 6-6-12 feeding schedule and all the discard.
Was from whole-wheat flour. I used a heritage wheat called Maris Widgeon and it was ready within 3 days. Bubbled up within 24 hours. Then had a 12 hour lag. But within another 12 hours it had a bubbled up again. Then on the third feed it bubbled up like a regular starter. Made a levain overnight and baked with it. Fourth day had a lovely sourdough loaf. I could have used it to bake with on day 3 but I fed it one more time just to make sure. It just turned into a starter from the word "go". I'm thinking if you happen to find a flour that has spent a short a time possible from field to you then it'll make a strong quick starter.
My starter has been Whole Wheat since the beginning. That goes back well over 10 years. It is not truly WHOLE wheat though... 95% WW and 5% BRM Dark Rye is the true makeup, using 100% hydration. The whole wheat flour is milled at home from whole grain. I feed twice daily and ferment on the kitchen counter at room temperature when readying for a bake, but otherwise it lives in the refrigerator. At times for 2-3 months at a stretch when we travel. Even after 2-3 months it can be ready to make bread successfully after about 4 days of countertop feeding and fermentation.
It does not make a very sour flavored bread, most of the time, unless I retard loaves overnight before baking. For the most part my sourdough loaves tend to be 100% patent flour (Central Milling Organic from Costco), and only the initial inoculation of starter is from the mother. I build my levain out of the same flour/mix when appropriate, that I use in the dough. The flavor of these loaves is only somewhat reminiscent of San Francisco sourdough, which I experienced often in my earlier years on Fisherman's Wharf. Now it has been many years, perhaps a couple of decades, since I have eaten there. I do not have a very discriminating palette, so I would not be able to say if lactic vs ascetic flavors describe my bread, but it is definitely a pleasant flavor. Not at all vinegary.
You asked about Whole Wheat starters so I have chimed in. I'm sorry that I don't have more to contribute toward your more meaningful questions. I'll keep an eye open here so I can learn more though.
Best of Luck
OldWoodenSpoon
Why did you start with a whole-wheat starter?
What is the difference between patent flour and all-purpose, and patent and bread flour?
I don't recall why I started with whole wheat. I think it was because I failed at getting a couple of white flour starters going, and then someone here on TFL suggested trying it with WW + Rye. It worked so well that I am still doing it that way.
I also recall that, several years go, I tried to "fork" a white flour starter from my original whole wheat one, but ran afoul of the dreaded thioles. I managed to feed through that initial thiole attack to a successful white flour starter, but didn't maintain it over the long haul. Two starters was 1 too many for me. Now when I need a white, or rye too for that matter, starter, I just create one with an initial very small inoculation from my whole wheat starter, and build it up from there. This approach also grew out of suggestions and assistance from here at TFL, and also worked so well that I continue the practice. Nice helpful place Floyd has going here!
Patent flours are flours consisting solely of the endosperm of the grain, aka "white" flours. At least that is the way I learned the term, and the way I use it. Given that definition then the flours you mention are all of the class "patent" flours.
I hope it is of some help
OldWoodenSpoon
My whole-wheat sourdough starter experiment has been less than a resounding success.
After fermenting for about 2 weeks, it has taken on a most disagreeable odor. To be candid, it smells like excrement. I would not want to bake anything with it.
I've made starters with white flour in the past and they've never smelled this bad. I've simply combined white flour and water to about milkshake consistency, then let the mixture stand for a week or so.
King Arthur organic whole-wheat four was used.
You might want to try a rye starter. I made a 100% hydration starter a couple years ago and it has withstood some abuse and continues to do its job. I refresh at 1:10:10 about every two weeks or just before a bake. The rest of the time it lives in the fridge.
I realize there is not any rye in the SFSD you want to recreate, but it would be a small amount (<1%) of rye flour in the final bread. Another option would be to use the rye starter as the maintenance starter and convert small amounts of it to a wheat starter as needed to make the sponge for the SD.
Discarding and feeding serves a purpose. Helps select the good bacteria and keeps it healthy. Sounds like it's just going bad.
One my best, if not the best starter (see above), i've made was with 100% whole wheat.
Maybe I was careless with it. I may try again. It seemed to have fermented rather quickly (a few days) and developed a layer of alcohol which I stirred in.
I may try again and stick it in the fridge when it seems ripe, which will be a bit of a balancing act.
Rye is 100% a no-go.
How were gold miners able to carry sourdough starters in pouches on their person without "going bad"?
They would have nutured them. After which they would have baked their daily bread with them. So they got a daily feed as their starter was a piece of dough.
But mixing flour into a paste and leaving it for a week or two it'll go bad.
Your starter needs feeding.