Another Italia Squisita vid and it's...
That time of year again!
Tecnica, a touch of history and one of those wall-buried ovens!
But it'll have to wait till I get a dough kneader. Can imagine how difficult it is to make by hand. That picture in the video is making me crave one now.
It reminds me of the time I thought I would make a danish or a croissant, once I saw how much butter was in the recipe I was never able to look at them the same way again. Seeing them dump in all that sugar and butter made me second-guess my wife's favorite Christmas dessert.
I thought it was funny that they hang them upside down to cool, very clever.
I used to do it by hand - and the 2 kneading usual took between 30 to 50min each. Making it well over 1hr total needing.
Even with that effort....still worth it.
For the home baker, the challenge is to ensure your starter is supper fit. I don't know how many people keep their starters able to triple in 3-4hrs.
MIXERS - An Artofex PH0 would be my dream dough mixer...but I know that isn't going to happen any time soon.
I was thinking to myself that every single Italian bakery in these videos always seems to look like a lab. Quoth the Besuschios:
Must be intentional then.
Thanks for linking this.
“laboratorio” equally means “workshop” but sure I get what you mean, this is a very technical process after all!
Glad you enjoyed!
I’d just watched this video, I always enjoy watching skilled bakers make panettone. One of these days I’d like to try.
Thanks for watching Benny. I'm confident you have a dab hand and skills to attempt the mother / madre of sourdough baking and I would gladly contribute my advice when the time comes.
I’ll definitely be asking you for help when the time comes Michael.
Michael, I'm just wondering if a panetonne community bake at some point might incentivise the laggards like me who keep thinking of dipping their toes in the water of full blown panettone but haven't got round to it?
I know you're a busy guy, so it may not be possible, but just a thought....
Interesting idea! I am quite scared of trying a proper panettone (and don't have a stand mixer...), but might be interested to join a community bake if there was one.
@Lance, it's a great idea one that has been pitched to me before by Danny (DanAyo).
A couple of reasons why I'm slightly resistant:
First and foremost, indeed as you say I'm a busy guy, I'm not sure I would have enough free time to be a worthy host. Perhaps the answer is someone could co-host with me?
Secondly, the nature if the bake. I fear there would be too many problematic bakes if using solely SD leaving and consequently too much disappointment that it didn't work out. The whole thing could just become an array of troubleshooting. I think the answer would be to push a hybrid (SD/CY or SD/YW) panettone.
I would be honoured to host a community bake and I am keen on the idea, I'm just mindful of those points.
@Ilya. Glad to hear you'd be on board. No stand mixer you say... this challenge just got real!
Perhaps for a CB you could suggest two versions, one entirely LM leavened and one hybrid? Then should the traditional LM approach not work, people could fall back to the hybrid version.
I do have a hand mixer with spiral attachments that work great for developing the dough... But obviously for long mixing times it would still be quite tiring...
Let's see when/if this happens, maybe by then I'll get a stand mixer.
Sure, that sounds like the right approach. I could even suggest a CY only version to bring wider appeal.
Another hurdle though is the need to acquire extra materials, in particular the paper / card moulds for this bake.
It's been so long but actually I remember using a hand mixer to make panettone back in the early days, so it is possible!
Would be great to develop a CLAS/FLAS/etc version of panettone. The one Rus Brot has is nice, but the level of enrichment is nowhere near the real deal, to be honest. Then we would have full control of acidity and leavening, and I would assume a much better flavour than simple CY.
I actually have some moulds already :) Just thought to add them once to an Amazon order I was placing anyway... Just in case! If planning in advance (and such a bake is not something one does spontaneously...) it's easy to get moulds, and they are not expensive.
Good to hear a hand mixer should work!
Could be interesting to see what people come up with… Remind me what is the typical dose of CLAS as a percentage?
I can foresee some potential issues however, as there are more factors than just acidity and leavening.
It would be a fair determination that only a true LM can sufficiently provide the necessary strength to manage such high levels of enrichment. Since a LM starter has an oxidative influence.
I imagine CLAS like other loose consistency cultures would have a reductive influence of the panettone mix which would result in a much softer consistency and one that may break although. In any case a softer consistency dough will take much longer to rise…
It is this reason that a CY panettone typically contains a lower level of enriching ingredients because without LM you don’t get the same strength. In an artisan panettone it is this strength that contributes to a vertically elongated crumb structure.
While reductive starters tend to promote proteolysis and souring.
Ah very interesting, indeed the oxidative status is nearly always completely ignored by the amateur bakers such as myself, I don't know anything about that.
CLAS is typically 190% hydration, and for 00 flour the recommendation would be to add 3% of the flour with CLAS into the preferment. I think it's totally possible to make it into a stiff culture, though I haven't tried. (I think most people including myself simply have a whole rye CLAS, and just use it in wheat bread, although it can b made with pretty much any grain).
With this in mind, would you expect adding CLAS to a CY bake vs not, it would at least improve the result?
To be fair it's not something most professional bakers would consider either, or scarcely is it an area of research in academia focused on sourdough. It just happens to be a topic I am very interested in. I guess my degree in oenology has aided that. A good winemaker will always be thinking about the influence of oxygen at all stages, and how to control it, it really is a critical control point.
Thanks, I thought the dosage was about that. A one step stiff conversion might help to improve things, but multiple passes would be better. Sure, improved flavour is a credible outcome with CLAS in the mix.
Michael, certainly the hybrid option sounds like a good idea, perhaps also with the full-on option for the wise/foolhardy (!), as Ilya suggests.
WRT the LM, do you think it is acceptable to convert an existing healthy wheat starter or is it better to start afresh?
(or a rye starter?..)
I see no issue in converting an existing starter. My so called "lievito 2.0" that made many a panettone was born from a 100% hydration wheat and rye starter.
I don't specifically recall but the starter I'm using now, let's call it "lievito 3.0" was seeded from fermented malt syrup which I'm inclined to call "mock wort".
That's good to know. A bit more thinking out loud: for beginners, is it better to make an initial trial (or trials) without inclusions, so if things go pear-shaped, eg at the primo impasto stage, then less is wasted?
Mitigating pear-shaped results is a contingency I frequently consider.
Lately I have been sticking to Achille Zoia's panettone formula as there is no egg in the primo impasto.
I've yet to solve the problem of unnecessary acidification that I'm having.
Proceeded anyway... dough pH 4.07 - you can feel it too! Obviously should be 5.x!
I suspect this will fall from its mould after baking.
I presume the LM pH was OK? So would this problem be predicted by high TTA in the LM, if one was to do that analysis?
Not that this would provide a solution, of course, but might save some materials, time and heartache!
Hitting the pH 4.1 target for the LM is no biggie!
Almost expected in 3-4.hrs.
Some measure of high TTA but not the be all and end all of explanations.
I need to weaken my LM..!
Your pH might work, depends on how much gluten is there.
I'm baking today too. Roy recipe. pH this morning after 10 hour rise at 27C was 4.36. Very good rise and gluten development still. I added a half teaspoon of baking soda to the second impasto, as a hedge against issues. All went well and I have three panettone cooling upside-down.
In Omnia Fermenta, a number of LM adjustments are suggested, based on pretty specific issues. I haven't tried all of them yet. My LM has improved somewhat over the last few weeks, as I have been cold-storing it between bakes, bound method. My storage refrigerator is colder than a regular refrigerator. It comes out after a week with pH above 4.1 generally.
One way to make sourdough less acidic is to enrich the dough (I believe). Might adding egg to the primo impasto help to make it less acidic?
Yes I saw this, and it's such a nice and clear explanation. It might be fun for some of us panettone bakers to make this recipe and compare results!
Here's a snapshot of my Excel, please let me know if my math is wrong!
I plan to make either the 400g or the 600g (1st impasto flour wt) batch. a 400g one usually yields two 1Kg panettone or 3 750g ones, with possibly a couple of 60g mini panettones done with the leftover dough. However, this recipe has a LOT of raisins, so it may be a bit more.
I don't use vanilla beans due to cost, but instead use vanilla paste. I will use about 3 teaspoons of vanilla paste for the 400g size batch. I may also substitute for the orange paste using fiori di sicilia or orange emulsion in small amounts, perhaps 1.5 tsp.
Well done Sue - you are tempting me! I haven't checked your maths yet, but that would come if I went further.
A few questions:
😊 I actually have a bag of Manitoba Oro, which is my backup in case I run out of Petra 6384 and the Dallagiovanna panettone flour, which looks unlikely, lol.
I think it probably makes very good panettone, and I know some people use it.
Yes, cedro is citron.
I am going to do a comparative analysis, because I have a big spreadsheet for most of the masters already made. This recipe started with an unusual amount of flour in the 1s impasto, which I normalized using a factor of X/4.512, pretty simple.
I'll also look at Chambelland's style of analysis for overall humidity and sugar, that's pretty useful too. Might take a bit longer for that.
Personally I've only been making the Roy recipe for a few months now, but am tempted by another chocolate one I saw yesterday....
Just for the discussion I stumbled across this recipe years ago on youtube and it works for me. Love to hear peoples' thoughts.
Method translated from video:
For 1 Panettone:
Leave to rest and rise for 12 hours.
When everything is blended, put 50 grams of butter and knead; then at the end add:
Then melted butter.
180 C - 1 hour
WOW, I just did a comparison to what I usually bake...and my first thought was that is a lot of butter (354g butter : 500g flour). Then I just had so many questions.
How is the dough to mix and handle? Does that amount of fat affect developing your gluten? Does it have a tendency to slump after baking - as the recipe looks like it would be quite a wet dough?
Would love to see a photo of your outcome, I am sure it would be spectacular and would positively melt on the tongue.
I compared this recipe to 10 masters on a spreadsheet, using the same size batch (1000g first impast flour) to level the inputs. This recipe is similar to others in many respects, perhaps most like Tortori and Schwartzapel.
It has a relatively low yolk content I believe, similar to Roy's recipe, but no water in the 2nd impasto.
So a little simpler to make, and maybe a slightly firmer dough result, unknown crumb.
But the enrichment is added in stages. Each stage is allowed to at the very least double, or even triple, over many hours. It's a long process. So people who enrich their loaves, all at once, and say after a couple of extra hours that their starter can't take enriched dough simply haven't given it enough time and they've thrown everything at it all at once.
My first attempt at grandi lievitati panettone. I'm quite pleased with the result. I used the Giorilli recipe that Michael listed a while ago.
The alveoli could be a bit bigger and the loaves a bit taller, but the crumb is light and fluffy and the flavour is great.
I made 1 x 500g and 2 x 300g panettones, but I now think that the 500g case is best filled to 520 and the 300g to 360.
That's pretty good going for a first attempt!
Any issues or difficulties? How were the leavening times?
I'd be interested to know how you prepared your starter in the lead up to the primo impasto.
Oh and what flour did you use?
Wow that’s marvelous Lance, I’m super impressed that it your first panettone!!
Thank you Michael and Benny - it was quite a journey!
I'll post up some more details soon.
Beautiful color and crumb! Wonderful panettone!
Many thanks, Sue - not quite up to your standard yet!
I've put some more details of my process in a blog post here: