The Fresh Loaf

A Community of Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts.

Panettone First Steps

albacore's picture
albacore

Panettone First Steps

This is a follow up to my post  in the "Besuschio - The Definitive Panettone" thread, with a bit more detail.

Starter

I decided to make a fresh starter for my LM - probably not necessary, but never mind! I followed the instructions at https://www.homebaking.at/sauerteigansatz-herstellen/ 

using a homegrown organic apple, flour mix of Marriages organic BF and some Italian Manitoba flour (+ a little malt) + spring water.

I left it at 28C and it had doubled in 24hrs, so I followed the next few steps in Dietmar's instructions and after a day or two developed a routine of 50 starter/50 Marriages Manitoba/20 spring water at 28C. This fits nicely in a 300ml cream pot (dry storage), covered with a shower cap. I roll out and roll up the dough about 5 times, shape into a ball and put into a clean pot.

I do this at about 9am and 9pm every day, now with a bit less flour to reduce waste: 40/40/16. pH ends up pretty consistently at 4.1.

After 2 weeks the LM seemed pretty active, so I did the 3 refreshments at m9, e1 and e5. Final pH was a bit high at 4.5, but Dietmar gives a range of 4.3-4.4, so I didn't worry too much.

https://www.homebaking.at/klassischer-panettone-masterclass/

 

Primo

So next I made the primo in the Kenwood Major with the spiral dough hook. I would have liked to use the IM5, but there wasn't enough dough.

 

The recipe I followed said to mix the LM with the flour (Marriages Manitoba again) and water and develop gluten. Then add the sugar, then butter, then the yolk. The trouble with this method is that the initial dough was very stiff, so kneading generates a lot of heat and also it is extremely difficult to then incorporate the butter/yolk.

Much better I think to mix LM + flour + water + enough yolk to give a kneadable consistency, knead, then add the rest of the yolk bit by bit and then all the butter, piece by piece.

All in pH was 5.59. Temp was a bit low because of our cold kitchen - about 22C. Even if you attemperate everything, the dough loses heat in the mixer.

 

Secondo 

I made the secondo the next morning at m11.20 - it was well risen and had a pH of 5.15. Bulk was slow and I eventually baked at e10. I'd put 290g in 300g cases, which I think should have 360g dough in them, so I think I was waiting for some extra rise that was never going to happen.

 

Resources

A couple of sites I like the look of:

https://buonapizza.forumfree.it/?t=75690202

https://www.gabilagerardi.it/grandi-lievitati/panettone-milano-ricco-di-giambattista-montanari/

 

That's it - till my next attempt!

 

Lance

 

Comments

Benito's picture
Benito

I’m still totally impressed Lance, thanks for sharing what you did, maybe more TFL’ers will join in the panettone fun.

Benny

albacore's picture
albacore

Cheers Benny - it would be nice if a few more members decided to dip their toes in the panettone water (could that include you, Benny ;-) ?)

You just need four things: a mixer, a proofing box, determination and a bit of nous!

Lance

Benito's picture
Benito

Lance, I might give panettone a go next year.  I’m still down in Fort Lauderdale and without a mixer or my starter.  There is a ton to learn and I’d need to get some supplies prior to starting such as the paper forms.

Again, you did really amazing work here.

Benny

JonJ's picture
JonJ

Awed

whenever I see these descriptive paragraphs

the old Italian madre

waiting to sing and dance

on my tongue

 

 

albacore's picture
albacore

Very lyrical, Jon - I like it!

Lance

SueVT's picture
SueVT

Great job, and sounds like you enjoyed the process! I have never had so much fun baking, as with my panettone efforts. It just gets better, as the many details pull you in. 

One thing to consider is, that the order of adding ingredients impacts the eventual crumb result. 

albacore's picture
albacore

Thanks Sue; Yes I did enjoy it - certainly a bit of a challenge and something different. I'm always amazed at the endless variety of products that a baker can make, from good bread made with flour, water and salt to panettone and beyond.

Can I ask what is your preferred ingredient addition procedure for the impastos?

Lance

SueVT's picture
SueVT

I have been baking the Roy recipe for a few months, so this is mostly influenced by that:

1st impasto:

Whisk together 75% of the water + sugar until dissolved

Add flour, mix until gluten developed well

Add LM, continue mixing until well developed

Slowly add in the other 25% of the water

Add 1/3 of the yolks, mix in completely

Add all the softened butter, mix in thoroughly

Add the rest of the yolks in two stages, mixing thoroughly

 

2nd impasto:

1st dough + flour - mix until gluten well developed

Sugar, Honey, 1/3 yolks - mix in completely

1/3 yolks, vanilla or other flavoring 

rest of yolks plus any flavoring paste(s)

Butter, mix in well, then Salt

Water, add in v. slowly mixing in completely before continuing (if recipe has water in 2nd impasto)

Add Ins, mix in for 2 to 3 minutes only

 

I am always experimenting with this, as well as (very importantly) the baking technique

albacore's picture
albacore

Thank you Sue, i'll  have a good look  at this.

Regarding baking, one of the links I gave talked about starting at a low temp and increasing it in a stepwise fashion with time. Is that the kind of thing you're talking about?

SueVT's picture
SueVT

About baking. Most of the recipes just say to bake at a consistent 170C. Some of them, as you saw, propose a gradual rise in temp.

Some propose an initial hot oven, which is immediately turned back down after the loaves are in. I have guessed that this is a good strategy to get an initial push of heat into the dough. If you look at certain bakers' panettone, you'll see a tight, baked crumb on the outside and a radically different open crumb in the center. I have guessed that the "initial hot" approach is involved with that.

However, that might be wrong. Using that approach, with varying timing on the first phase, I have had a consistently "good but not great" oven spring. It rises quickly to a point, then sets and stops.

For my most recent bake, I tried the low temp approach (about 310F). Surprising results, because I had the biggest oven spring yet, though it took longer. Also, the bake overall took longer (to get to 92F internal temp). At least 20 more minutes than normal, and I turned it up to 320F for the last 15 minn. 

If using a convection oven (which is almost all ovens these days), then 10 degrees less than the recipe at least should be used.

I used an Anova Precision Oven, which only fits two panettone at a time. I had one more, so I refrigerated it until the others finished baking. This introduced a more complex issue. The cold dough took longer (much longer) to rise at 310F, but when it did, it had an even larger oven spring. 

albacore's picture
albacore

Thanks Sue - yet more options and possibilities. We need someone to develop a mathematical model of panettone baking to work out which is best!

Lance

MTloaf's picture
MTloaf

Looks like it was well worth the effort and you were certainly up to challenge. Is it necessary to age them a bit for the flavor or texture to be at its best? I look forward to seeing your next attempt. 
Don

albacore's picture
albacore

Thanks Don; as far as I know, no maturation period is required, just an overnight rest before slicing.

Hopefully I'll be having a go at Mk II in a week or two. Please feel free to join in ;-)

 

Lance

happycat's picture
happycat

I'm glad you put this into a blog. It will be great to follow along as you master the form.

I enjoyed eating a pandoro last year though it was a bit industrial. Never had a good pannetone but doing a kugelhopf last winter changed my mind about dessert breads. 

Great to see this... and would love more crumb shots.

albacore's picture
albacore

Thank you David; I think some of the panettones and pandoros you buy can taste good, maybe not as good as the artisanal versions - which you can also buy, but they tend to be pricey.

One thing I don't like is the vanilla sugar you sometimes get with pandoros to sprinkle on yourself; the vanilla always tastes very false to me.

Lance

mwilson's picture
mwilson

it's good to have a successful bake under your belt, luck was on your side and starting a new starter probably helped with that. Maintaining the LM continuously and understanding it, is really where the heart of the skill lies, manipulating it to get the perfect panettone time after time is quite the challenge.

I'm glad the end pH of the primo was above 5, since this is actually quite crucial. pH and acidity effects everything, not just the fragrance and flavour, but the crumb structure, the texture, the keeping qualities and that extra sensory feeling I quite explain; the sense of something well made that feels nutritious, even if it is a sweet treat.

Regarding the optimum pH for a mature LM, this varies slightly from baker to baker, but from extensive research I really see two schools of thought on this.

LM maturo, pronto - optimum pH
Giorilli - pH 4.5
Massari - pH 4.1

Dietmar's instruction are clearly from the camp of Giorilli and you said you followed the Giorilli recipe, right? So your LM was very much inline with the recipe.

Do you have any pictures of the process? Would be nice to the LM, Primo and Secondo doughs.

Did you LM triple in volume?

Again, well done and I look forward to the next one! I wonder if you might try one of Massari's recipes... The LM really needs to be full steam for that!


Keep at it!

Michael

albacore's picture
albacore

Yes, luck was on my side this time! I agree about the flavour profile of the panettone - everything seems very integrated, even the high level of sweetness, as you mentioned, does not stand out as sugary, just part of one great, balanced flavour hit.

I reckon my LM triples in daily refresh, but I'm not sure it quite did when making the 3 builds prior to the primo - maybe 2.5X?

I don't have any pictures of the primo, though I finally got it pretty well integrated and of a good strength. I reckon that it had at least tripled when I made the secondo.

I'll stick with the same recipe next time. I'll take a rain check on the Massari, thank you!

How are you getting on? Have you solved the low pH problem? I did read that malt in the primo can help?

Lance

mwilson's picture
mwilson

Still battling the acidification... The biggest hurdle is having enough time to tackle the problem.

Since last week I have been weakening my LM, feeding 1:2 daily held at 16C, vac packed and bound. This certainly dialled down the TTA while promoting CO2 production. On several occasions the vac bag burst when unwrapping, creating an almighty bang! And I could smell the CO2 in the dough when cut into. The starting pH after feeding crept up and up and the dough felt drier / less fermented despite the considerable gas production.

Perhaps I have gone too far because my LM now barely doubles in volume during the 4 hours, yet the that pesky pH still hits the mark!

 

Regarding malt addition, yeah I read that in the link you provided, but I'm highly sceptical, since at face value it makes no sense, without an explanation or credible source I can only only ruminate the rationale for that one! While a few recipes from the maetros may use malt it's not that common and I've seen added either to primo or the secondo.

In basic theory malt would only hasten acidification and according to Teffri-Chambelland flour with a high falling number is suited to viennoiserie while malt addition is better for bread.

Also the dough has sugar added which is direct fuel for yeast... So it's not like the malt will accelerate the yeasts.

I'll keep on with what I refer to and justify as SD R&D...

 

SueVT's picture
SueVT

If malt helps the yeasts by direct feeding of sugars and by breaking down flour to feed the yeast, then that should be helpful in balancing LAB activity in the primo. And maltose may encourage a longer period of yeast activity, in "late fermentation" also. 

I am also considering adding more yolks to the primo, to slow down the LM overall.... but for this week's bake I'm only going to add some malt. Need to check some recipes to get a % guideline for it. 

albacore's picture
albacore

Interesting how I'm finding flour type influences LM pH.

Normally I'm using Marriages Canadian flour in 1.5kg bag (which I suspect is the same as their Manitoba in a 16kg bag).

pH was slightly high at 4.19, so I used a 50/50 mix of Marriages and Tirelli Gold Tipo 00 Manitoba and the pH went down to 3.94

Back on 100% Marriages and last pH was 4.15.

Though I do find getting an accurate pH on these very low hydration doughs can be problematic.

 

Lance

flekakh's picture
flekakh

I am trying to bake it for the first time. What flour would you recommend buying in US? I am not finding any strong flours  -:(

albacore's picture
albacore

I am in the UK, not the US, so my knowledge of your flours is very limited. You need a high protein, low ash flour; possibly a high gluten flour would be suitable.

You could contact eg King Arthur or Giusto's and ask for their advice. You may need to add a small amount of diastatic malt if using American flours, assuming they are not already malted.

Also @SueVT is active in this thread; she may be able to advise.

 

Lance

Another Girl's picture
Another Girl

Wow, that looks great! Making and maintaining the LM seems quite daunting and you've managed everything so well in your first go. Very impressive!

albacore's picture
albacore

I think making the LM is pretty easy; the daily refreshes can be a bit tedious, but no pain, no gain!

Lance

albacore's picture
albacore

My second attempt was a dismal failure! The panettone roller coaster in action!

Same recipe as last time, only a bigger batch (always the way when things go wrong).

LM pH was well risen and pH 4.42 and primo pH was 5.64 - I was happy enough with that. But the next morning the dough was only about 2x and the pH was still 5.45. So I wound up the temp on the PB and got the volume up to 3.5x, but the pH was still 5.42 - something not right here.

I decided to proceed with the secondo - I was tempted to add some citric acid to get the pH down, but didn't - but the yolks and butter did not incorporate well and I ended up with a very weak slightly lumpy dough, like a bread dough that has lost its gluten strength.

I baked some of it but it sunk in the middle and, though edible, the crumb was very cakey and not shreddable.

The only big difference this time is that I mixed in the Famag, not the Kenwood. The flour weight (327g) wasn't really enough and the dough rose up the spiral, making it difficult to incorporate the rest of the ingredients. The net effect was that mixing time was long and the primo ended up extremely strong - I'm wondering if this was a possible cause?

 

Lance

Debra Wink's picture
Debra Wink

Hi Lance,

The same happened to me once when I too was trying a different mixer than I had been using. I was testing the dough hooks with my handheld to see if that would be a workable backup to the stand mixer, and to be able to make very small one-loaf batches for testing and practice. The good news is yes, a handheld can make a beautiful dough, but without a Staybowlizer I needed a third hand to add the enrichments a little at a time (and the hand holding the mixer takes a beating).

My mistake was adding the aromas and flavorings all at once like they do with those nice gentle diving arm mixers where additions seem to float on top the dough until they sort of gradually get absorbed. Well, my mixer pulled it in too fast, overwhelming the dough, and the beautiful gluten structure just collapsed and came unglued. There's no coming back from that (but it made a tasty cake). Now I keep my additions very small and wait until completely incorporated before adding the next.

It sounds like your mixer was not able to incorporate ingredients as fast as you were adding them, or you added too much at once. It is a test of patience, but well worth it.

dw

albacore's picture
albacore

Thanks Debra, I'm not convinced it was the mixing method, but as I said, I'll go back to the Kenwood next time and see how it it goes.

There again, as Michael Wilson says, "it's always the LM....."

Meanwhile, butter fried Cakettone with brandy sauce made a tasty pud tonight! 

Lance

albacore's picture
albacore

I discovered some light reading (!) on LM handling - only 9 pages. It may be of interest to the panettone afficionados.

https://laconfraternitadellapizza.forumfree.it/?t=78912527

 

Lance