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Looking for help to decode this malted sandwich bread recipe

jmscyl's picture
jmscyl

Looking for help to decode this malted sandwich bread recipe

I'm from the UK but have been living in Canada for a few years. There's this specific type of sandwich bread that seemingly only exists in the UK and I miss it so much. It's not fancy, or artisanal; in fact, it's a typical mass-produced sandwich bread that is ubiquitous in those pre-packaged sandwiches that us Brits love so much. I'd love to know how to make it, because I haven't found anything like it here in Canada. It's soft, but with just the right amount of chew, malty, a little grainy, not too sweet. It is, in my opinion, the greatest sandwich bread in existence.

The problem: apart from not being able to buy a loaf of this stuff in Ontario, I can't even get my hands on Hovis granary flour, which I believe is a good shortcut. Not only that, but one of the main ingredients, malted wheat flakes, cannot be bought anywhere in Canada either (trust me, I've looked everywhere). 

Here's a link to the exact type of bread I'm talking about. 

Here is a list of the ingredients:

  • WHEAT FLOUR, WATER, MALTED WHEAT FLAKES, BRAN (WHEAT), YEAST, SALT, MALT FLOUR (BARLEY), VINEGAR, EMULSIFIERS (MONO- AND DIACETYL TARTARIC ACID ESTERS OF MONO- AND DIGLYCERIDES OF FATTY ACIDS, MONO- AND DIGLYCERIDES OF FATTY ACIDS), MALT FLOUR (WHEAT), VEGETABLE PROTEIN (WHEAT), RAPESEED OIL, FLOUR TREATMENT AGENT (ASCORBIC ACID)  

Now, there are a few ingredients that I'd like some advice on.

  1. What is a typical hydration level for a sandwich bread like this, taking into account that it contains bran?
  2. Malted barley flour is listed, which I assume is either diastatic or non-diastatic malt. If we assume that the ingredients are listed by weight, that would suggest that the bread contains quite a lot of malted barley. My understanding is that diastatic malt can only be added in tiny amounts before it makes a bread gummy, so is it safe to assume that this malted barley is non-diastatic?
  3. What function does vinegar have here and what is a typical percentage?
  4. What is malted wheat flour?
  5. Is vegetable protein a pseudonym for something else?
  6. Since I can't procure any malted wheat flakes here in Canada, is there perhaps a way to make them myself? Is it a case of buying wheat berries, sprouting them, toasting them, and then flattening them into flakes?

 

I'm aware that mass-produced bread like this will use ingredients and techniques that might not be feasible for the home baker, but if anybody has any insider knowledge or general wisdom about this style of bread then I would love to hear any thoughts. Thanks so much if you made it this far!

 

 

 

 

 

sonofabrioche's picture
sonofabrioche

1) Bran usually means you need a higher hydration dough because it tends to soak up more water. I don't enjoy bran, so I don't work with it unfortunately. I have seen some recipes call for 100 to 103% hydration dough

2) I don't actually think this bread contains all that much malted barley flour as it follows behind yeast and salt, both of which rarely are more than 1-2% (by baker's percentage). Therefore, the amount of malted flour must be less than that and fairly minute. They are likely talking about diastatic malt as you would want the live enzymes (non-diastatic malted flour does not contain this) to break down the starch in the wheat flour to provide a steady supply of sugar for the yeast. You can get around procuring malted barley flour separately by using King Arthur All Purpose Flour which already has some combined into their wheat flour.

3) Vinegar enhances the acidic environment in which the yeast will thrive and, when added in very small amounts, will enhance the rise and fluffiness of bread. I don't typically use vinegar as I have always preferred ascorbic acid. I typically use 1/10th (10 mg) of a crushed vitamin C tablet per 1/2 kg of flour (~1.9%).

4) Just wheat flour with some diastolic malt added to it in higher percentages, by my understanding. 

5) Yup. Gluten.

6) Not sure about this one

 

Hope that helps.

 

jmscyl's picture
jmscyl
  1. Interesting, I guess I'll just have to experiment with different bran amounts and hydrations
  2. That makes sense! Re: using AP flour with malt already added; doesn't every AP flour have some malt added? And wouldn't this be the case for the flour used in commercial production too? I'm just wondering where the "maltiness" comes from in this bread if it's basically just AP flour, because AP doesn't have a malty character to me. (I guess the malted wheat flakes could be doing the heavy lifting in that regard).
  3. Good to know.
  4. Interesting. I wonder why this would be listed separately when flour and malt are already listed in the ingredients. Unless it goes through some kind of process to change it somehow.
  5. Ah yes, of course.

Thanks for this!

Yippee's picture
Yippee

Maybe you can contact Canada Malting Co Limited to find out if you can get it in Canada.

Have you tried to find the ingredients from a homebrew supply shop?

Yippee 

jmscyl's picture
jmscyl

Thanks for the link, I'll contact them! I've tried homebrew stores, but no luck. They stock wheat flakes and wheat berries, but not malted as far as I can tell.

sonofabrioche's picture
sonofabrioche

Online might be your best bet. Found this on Etsy - Link

KAF also sells them, but I don't know if they ship to Canada

jmscyl's picture
jmscyl

unfortunately they don't ship to Canada :(

Yippee's picture
Yippee

"Excellent product, excellent transaction, excellent company,

I purchased these to make granary bread using my nan’s recipe. I wanted malted wheat flakes but soon realized that malted is not readily available in the US. I bought these wheat flakes as a potential substitute and they are fabulous, firm, flavourful and without the ubiquitous ‘wheat dust’ that seems to accompany many wheat products. My only regret is that they are not malted. Hint, hint."

 

That makes me 🤔🤔🤔 if it's malted. Please check with the company when you contact them.

Yippee 

Yippee's picture
Yippee

Just a 💭 💭 💭:

 

- Buy some non-diastatic wheat malt, which is readily available 

 

- Flake it using Trailrunner's method 

 

P.S.

or using a pasta maker

 

experiment1

85g (1/2 cup) wheat malt moistened with 6tsp water, left at room temp overnight.

 

 

    Weighed 118g the next day.     Rolled with my pasta maker's tightest setting, 8. 

 

 

setting 7

 

 

experiment2

 

85g wheat malt soaked in water overnight; weighed 187g the next day. Rolled with the tightest setting.

      Too mushy - don't soak

 

Expriment3

 

Pressure steamed 55g of diastatic red wheat malt, rinsed and moistened with 5tsp water.

 

After 20 minutes of high-pressure steaming, most grains👇👇👇 had softened and could be rolled through the pasta maker. The remaining (~20) stubborn kernels were moistened again, steamed for another 10 minutes, and then rolled through the pasta maker.

 

click to enlarge

 

 

Yippee 

alcophile's picture
alcophile

But doesn't this require the purchase of a flaker?

Yippee's picture
Yippee

If I crave this bread that much and I can't buy it, I'll do whatever I can to make it.

Yippee 

Yippee's picture
Yippee

No need to buy a flaker, a pasta maker will do. ☝☝☝

Yippee

Our Crumb's picture
Our Crumb

I think I did either three double takes or two triple takes on this thread Yippee. 

You flake grains in your pasta maker???

I ask because I've been assuming my Komo Flic-Floc is not longer working as well as it used to because the surfaces that 'grab' the grain have lost their factory fresh roughness and there's no obvious way to 'dress' them (as you would a grinding wheel in the shop) back to their original roughness.

But a pasta machine's rollers aren't rough at all.  How do they 'grab' the grain?  I'm not surprised you have to soften it a lot to get it to enter and submit to the wheels' squeeze.  That you can soften it sufficiently for that without it sticking to the wheels and making a complete mess -- that's precision grain hydration to be sure.

We have a lonely, neglected pasta machine in the cabinet that is going to see the light of (a supposedly rainy ☔️🙏 ) day today.

Thank you Yippee!

Tom

alcophile's picture
alcophile

Thank you for conducting this experiment. I'll have to see if my old pasta maker still functions after 30+ years of disuse.

I noticed that you have photos of wheat malt and torrified wheat. Did you try this experiment with both? Note that torrified wheat has not been malted, but it has been heat-treated to pre-gelatinize the starches.

Yippee's picture
Yippee

The employee who helped me locate it repeatedly confirmed that it's malted (as I asked several times to ensure it is). He told me it's the only non-diastatic wheat malt they sell. All the other wheat malts they sell in the store are diastatic.  

From where did you find out it's not malted? 

I used diastatic red and white wheat malts to conduct the experiments. 

Yippee

alcophile's picture
alcophile

I'm not an expert on brewing ingredients, but from what I understand, torrified wheat has not been malted. It is used as a brewing adjunct or additive. Here is a link to the Briess data sheet for the torrified wheat:

https://www.brewingwithbriess.com/wp-content/uploads/documents/Briess-PISB-Brewers-Torrified-Wheat.pdf

For other malts that Briess offers, the data sheet will have information concerning diastatic power and other imporatant brewing characteristics:

https://www.brewingwithbriess.com/wp-content/uploads/documents/Briess-PISB-Wheat-Malt-Red.pdf

Here are a few more links that describe torrified wheat:

Torrified Wheat. All The Questions You Never Asked, Answered (homebrewanswers.com)

Torrefied Wheat vs Wheat Malt For Brewing or Distilling | Crisp Malt

If you're looking for a non-diastatic wheat malt, you will have to find a crystal or caramel wheat malt. The crystal wheat malt will probably have a color above 40° Lovibond (SRM > 50, EBC > 100), like this Briess Caracrystal Wheat malt:

https://www.brewingwithbriess.com/wp-content/uploads/documents/Briess-PISB-Caracrystal-Wheat-Malt.pdf

I have used torrified pale wheat in a bread, but I thought the it added little flavor to the bread.

Yippee's picture
Yippee

I hope my guesstimate on temperature and time 👇 👇 👇 is correct . Then I'll be able to turn any diastatic malt into non-diastatic and make it into hard-to-find flakes. I'm so excited to have such control and freedom.

Yippee 

Yippee's picture
Yippee

for this:

 

The Vikings red wheat malt that I converted to non-diastatic has already produced a sweet, malty aroma in bread. I have higher expectations for this darker malt.

Yippee

Yippee's picture
Yippee

The same employee made two mistakes, but at least this one is malted, I can steam it, flake it, and use it in the dough.

Yippee 

alcophile's picture
alcophile

I have not been able to find a numerical diastatic power for the Weyermann dark wheat malt. Where did you find this value?

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

The Hartong value of the Weyermann Dark Wheat is in the Weyermann pdf at the 2nd and 4th links.  The 1st and 3rd links are the pages on which the pdf links appear.  (I overdid it a bit in hopes of staving off link-rot.)

alcophile's picture
alcophile

Thanks! I looked right at that and didn't recognize the reporting unit.

I had never seen the Hartong 45° property reported in any other malt product. It's usually degrees Lintner (°L) or degrees Windisch–Kolbach (°WK) for DP. I see now that the Kolbach value is listed, but not like I'm used to as °WK.

I wonder if the low diastatic power of this malt makes it safer to use without any need for deactivation of the enzymes. I'm sure steaming would do it, but it might not be necessary.

Yippee's picture
Yippee

💡💡💡

If I steam diastatic malt, won't it become non-diastatic afterwards? If so, I can steam it to moisten/soften the kernel for flaking and make it non-diastatic simultaneously, killing two birds with one stone. 

What do you think, Alco?

Yippee

alcophile's picture
alcophile

I have the same question. I would like to try a lighter wheat malt in a bread, but I don't want the high diastatic power to ruin the dough.

I suspect heating above a certain temperature for a period of time will deactivate the malt enzymes. But I don't know how long or what temperature. I have thought of posing this question to the group.

Yippee's picture
Yippee

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/how-to-brew/enzymes-in-beer-whats-happening-in-the-mash/

If I pressure steam the diastatic malt for 10 minutes or maybe less, I think all the enzymes will be 💀💀💀, as a pressure cooker can reach 250F when at its highest pressure setting of 15 psi.

Yippee 

 

troglodyte's picture
troglodyte

I recently searched for diastatic malt powder, non-diastatic malt powder, and malt syrup. I live in Southern California, where you can find just about any ingredient if you know where to look.

I called several stores in the area that specialize in beer making and wine making supplies, asking about malt powder and malt syrup. I remember one of them gave me a hearty laugh and told me that he gets calls from bread bakers fairly often. He told me that the malts they use are not suitable for bread making. The man seemed very knowledgeable and friendly, and I believed him. 

I found the malt syrup, but only one store carried it: Mother's Market, which has multiple stores in the area.

I could not find diastatic malt powder nor non-diastatic malt powder anywhere locally. I ordered them online. 

 

Econprof's picture
Econprof

I got some diastatic malt powder from Kalustyan's when visiting NYC. Unsurprisingly TSA found this whitish powder rather suspicious and gave my bag an extra search. 

alcophile's picture
alcophile

I have used some wheat and rye malts from a homebrew store in breads. I don't know why he said you can't use brewing malts in bread. Some of the malts will have high diastatic power and other roasted malts will have little or no DP. I can't think of a reason you couldn't buy a barley malt, whirl it in a blade coffee grinder, and sift it to produce a powder. The only issue with barley malt is the presence of the husk.

My problem with the malt syrups at the homebrew store is that they are usually in large quantity packages, more than I can use. I bought some Eden barley malt syrup in a smaller container instead.

troglodyte's picture
troglodyte

Good question. As I said, I called around locally, and the answer was either a direct no, or the comment I posted above. Perhaps I asked the wrong questions ... ?

Thanks to @alcophile for sharing his experience. 

 

alcophile's picture
alcophile

Wheat flakes at homebrew stores are not malted. I am looking for this same product with no luck.

Econprof's picture
Econprof

What is it called?

I lived in the UK for a few years, and I do miss those prepackaged sandwiches. Not so much for the bread though. But they're very convenient!

jmscyl's picture
jmscyl

it's usually just referred to as "malted bread" whenever I've seen it listed on sandwich packages

alcophile's picture
alcophile

The only retail supplier of malted wheat flakes besides King Arthur that will ship to North America is Bakery Bits in the UK. They have a wide selection of malted products including wheat flakes, Nuttimalt, and several barley malt flours. Shipping overseas is prohibitive, though.

I believe these malt products are produced by Muntons, but I have never seen these products at homebrew stores. Briess and Lesaffre also make malted wheat flakes, but I have not found a retail source for these either. King Arthur's price for the flakes seems excessive to me.

jmscyl's picture
jmscyl

thanks for this - the store looks like a goldmine, but unfortunately the shipping is prohibitive. 1kg of malted wheat flakes would cost the equivalent of $40, kinda insane when the product itself costs about $7

pmccool's picture
pmccool

I noticed a product that was kibbled, rather than flaked, wheat malt.  If you were to pick up malted wheat from a brewing supplies shop, you could crack or chop the malted kernels in a blender or coffee mill to produce something similar.  The cracked malt could then be softened in a soaker before incorporation in the dough.  Granted, the texture will be somewhat different but all of the desired flavor will be present.  

Paul

alcophile's picture
alcophile

One question I have about the malted wheat flakes is that it isn't clear whether it is a pale, dark, or caramel/crystal wheat malt. What would you recommend?

Also, is there the same concern with using a diastatically active (base) malt in a bread if the pieces are flakes or chunks?

Thanks!

Yippee's picture
Yippee

you'll pay enough for shipping to buy an electric grain flaker.

Yippee 

alcophile's picture
alcophile

The cost of KA's flakes and Bakery Bits' shipping are too excessive for my pocketbook. That flaker is just a little too expensive as well.

alcophile's picture
alcophile

King Arthur does have a recipe for Malted Wheat Flake Bread if you can find the flakes. I'm not sure it produces an authentic loaf, though.

Debra Wink's picture
Debra Wink

Malted Wheat Flakes - King Arthur Baking Company

but not sure what the shipping charges would be to Canada. I have used these once, and they do taste malty.

Best of luck :)

joe_n's picture
joe_n

https://www.beerandwinemakers.com/Grain_List.pdf

755 E Brokaw Rd, San Jose, CA 95112
(408) 441-0880

I just came from a beer supplies store in San Jose  to get malted rye and wheat grains. The above pdf has an extensive  list of all kinds of malt grains. I noticed the grain flakes (not malted)  at the bottom of the list. Maybe they can order the malted ones.

They do not ship but do you have a friend in the area (or another area)  that can send you what you need?

You can buy malted grains at the home brewer equipment stores. ($2.50/lb)

For me it is a time saver instead of sprouting and drying.

I bought something called Bamberg Chocolate Malted Rye and will be interested in what flavors it gives.

 

alcophile's picture
alcophile

I believe homebrew stores are an untapped (Hah!) resource for the home baker. There are a lot of different malted and unmalted grains waiting to be explored in bread baking.

I agree that the products are time savers. I found toasted, huskless oat groats (Simpsons Golden Naked Oats) at my local brew store. I know I could buy some oat groats and toast them, but these are ready yo use.

joe_n's picture
joe_n

What a pleasure to read and see this original clas recipe.

Thank you!! The bread attributes are so amazing.

(I hope you will find time someday to post a Youtube video on how you make one of your beautiful breads with clas.)

Yippee's picture
Yippee

I hope the information is helpful, especially for the OP.

Yippee 

Abe's picture
Abe

I think this is just what you're looking for. Has malted wheat flakes and barley malt in a blend of bread and wholegrain flour. Makes a lovely sandwich loaf.