April 29, 2022 - 1:01am
Preferments doesnt make sense??
I don't really get preferments. Why only ferment a portion of the dough, instead of all of it? It makes a little bit of sense with for example a poolish, because you need to get the right hydration (but even then, I don't get why only ferment like 30%), but a biga? The hydration is within range of normal dough, so why not just let the entire dough ferment for the same amount of time? That would result in even more flavor, since all of the flour is fermented for a long period of time. It wouldn't "run out of food", because usually there is two rises anyways, and in with a dry dough like biga, the enzymes shouldn't break down the gluten either.
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One which immediately is obvious is that preferments are rarely the same hydration as the final dough. Poolish is too hydrated and biga is very low hydration. A true biga is 50% hydration or lower. And even if higher it's still not often within the range of the final dough.
If you want to go straight into the final dough but with a long ferment that is also fine but it's not a preferment. There are many ways to make a bread and one can of course drop the amount of yeast and ferment the dough for a long time or lower the temperature.
Yesterday I started to make a bread but couldn't see it through to baking in one day. I put it in the fridge overnight then carried on. That will also bring out flavour.
But with a biga, you could simply ferment all of the flour for a period of time, then add the rest of the water.
Then why not make the final dough and go for a long ferment? I'm sure if you made a biga and then fixed the hydration to shape, final proof and bake would also make a nice bread. At the end of the day it's whatever works and you get a nice loaf.
I would think with pre-ferments adding fresh flour after fermenting a poolish or biga allows for extending the time with more control. If you overstep the time with a biga then if it's only 30% prefermented flour at least it has enough fresh flour to make a decent bread which rises nicely. If you make a biga with 100% of the flour and then fix the hydration there's less room for error. To fix an error you'd have to add more flour and adjust the salt when adding more water - then you're back to making a biga.
There are reasons but that doesn't mean to say your way won't work. A lot of these perferments were devised by bakers to increase flavour but at the same time still churn out baked loaves quickly on the day. It had to be done in controlled manner and they can't afford to over ferment huge batches of dough. Bread is time and everything done in balance.
Because lets say you have want to end up with a dough at 75% hydration. If you were to ferment a dough that wet for over 12 hours, you could likely end up having problems with enzymes breaking down the gluten.
Everything has pros and cons. Bread is always about balance.
... To avoid the enzymes breaking the gluten down, we make a drier dough to start with, then add the rest of the water later.
And that is why i am asking, why do most people only ferment a portion of the dough, instead of all of it this way??
I did answer. You can also over ferment a biga. Fermenting part of the flour allows for more control when it comes to poolish and biga.
Just like it's better to fix hydration upwards! It's also better to work up with the the flour as well. Easier to add then take away.
There is a 90% pre-fermented flour biga recipe on this site. Makes a lovely loaf but the higher the pre-ferment the less room for error and it can be tricky.
But you can also overferment the dough afterwards anyway.. You can do that at every stage of fermentation: Prefermentation, bulk fermentation, final fermentation. So yes, maybe you did not overferment your preferment, but you could end up overfermenting the final dough during the final proof or bulk fermentation.
And as Ilya and I have said there are recipes using 90% pre-fermented flour and more. I've done them myself. There are many ways to make a bread. All have pros and cons. Yes, one can over ferment the final dough too but there's always a good way to approach something. Doesn't mean doing it any other way won't work and it also doesn't mean that even if one tries to do everything correctly it will always work.
I am not saying another method would not work. I am simply saying that the point of "better control" doesn't make any sense, cause the chance of overproofing a preferment is the same as overfermenting the actual dough.
I have seen biga recipes with over 90% of flour prefermented, or even 100%. So sometimes it's done, and it works. https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/54556/90-biga-loaf-italian-method
Oh yes, i know it works :)
That is why i am wondering why most recipes tell you to preferment only a portion of the dough, instead of all of it.
You're over thinking this. Pros and cons to every method. Of course one can forget they're baking bread and get called out to do an errand then no matter what one does they can over ferment.
It 's just different methods.
Sure. That is the most popular method of breadmaking in America. 20 million tonnes of bread are baked daily using exactly that method: prefermenting 100% of flour in a stiff sponge, using only part of water from the recipe.
It's a very old, ancient even, method. It was studied by the US scientists in the 1940s and proven to be one of the best, it makes very tender and tasty sandwich bread, aka wonderbread, which stays fresh the longest.
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That sounds interesting. I thought i was a genius for thinking about this way, but i guess its a really old technique xD
Do you have any sources to that information? I would really like to hear more about it.
That i referenced and Ilya posted. It's very tasty. As I did say there are many ways to make a bread. All with their pros and cons.
So is a smaller amount of prefermented dough simply for flavor? The reason most recipes tell you to preferment maybe only 30% of the flour, is simply because people don't like 100% prefermented?
Also, i meant a source to the "story" of it.
And you'll see the pros and cons. That's the best way to come to a conclusion as to how you like to approach a pre-ferment. Try it and see if it suits your taste and needs. Wonderbread is mass produced fluffy white bread. As for ease and overproofing it isn't the same as making it by hand.
For the story you'll have to do some googling or perhaps Mariana can post a link.
Silva J, 1941. Pullman bread: Flour, formula, methods, pans. Proc.Am.Soc.Bakery Engrs, 17:45
Clark, C.B. 1985. Sponge-and-dough process. Proc.Am.Soc.Bakery Engrs. 61:66.
E.J.Pyler and L.A.Gorton. 2009. Baking. Science and Technology, fourth edition. Vol II. page 13, 100% Sponge method.
Here's an excerpt for you:
Sure, you are a genius. It's a good method. So far, billions of people have been baking bread for thousands of years. Nearly all combinations and permutations have been tried and were popular at one time or another. For as long as you like your chosen method of preparing bread dough and it gives you good bread, go ahead and use it. They all work.
Very interesting. But this just makes me wonder even more why people only preferment a portion of the flour, instead of doing it this way.
https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/70467/how-incorporate-water-biga-step-2-kaf-rustic-italian-ciabatta
One con you might come across when trying the 90% biga. And even more so when doing everything by hand. It can be done but not that easy. Just one of the many things to think about. I had good results with my second try but don't care for that aspect of it even though it does produce a nice bread. The effort outweighed the results as one can get just as tasty bread using other methods.
Theo: When people start asking "why", the answers are usually in the science.
The generalized version of your questions are supposedly answered in some of the books recommended in the comments on this thread:
https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/62323/there-book-bread-chemistryscience-peer-reviewed-articles
The science-y bread book most often recommended on TFL seems to be Emily Buehler's, which is only $7 in Kindle format on Amazon.
Here's the link to the new edition, coded to give the TFL webmaster a small commish:
https://www.amazon.com/Bread-Science-Chemistry-Craft-Making/dp/097780688X?tag=froglallabout-20
You can ask and you can read but you won't know until you've done it.
Experimentation is fun. I recommend baking tiny loaves varying parameters to find what you like.
I like experimenting, and i was also planning to, but i am afraid that if i make something my family doesnt like, i will have to fight through to eat that loaf by myself, and if i dont get it done, it gets moldy and i have to throw it out.
Also, i am too inpatient xD
I bake loaves with 200g of flour. I can easily eat one in a couple of days. Then I tweak and bake again.
but it's not actively bad, slice it, dice the slices, toss with olive oil and some dried herbs, roast in a 325F oven for 15-20 mins and boom, croutons.
The Chain Baker (Charlie) has a superb video discussing exactly this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hcY6xituuU
And here too: https://www.chainbaker.com/preferment-vs-long-proof/
-Jon
I have seen that video, but i dont think he goes much into detail. Thats why i asked here.
Flavor development is a huge consideration. Flavor develops through longer, cooler and slow fermentation using a build approach. The 30% preferment using 6-24 hours of fermentation day 1, followed by building out the full recipe day 2 will have far more flavor vs.100% of all ingredients at the start. And even more flavor using an overnight rest in the fridge of the final dough, followed by am baking.
You could prove this by testing the three ways: 1) 100% as you describe, 2) 30% preferment then baking, and 3) 30% preferment, make the loaves, followed by an overnight cold rest before baking. The differences in flavor will be noticeable. Experiment and find what you like best as one is fast and easier and may be perfectly fine for the outcome intended, as against a more involved process and the tradeoffs re time, scheduling and flavor profile.
An excellent book that my library has is by Ken Forkish: "Flour Water Salt Yeast - The fundamentals of Artisan Bread and Pizza" - which provides great commentary. Aside from useful background as to how the artisan approach has evolved, he also provides recipes for straight dough, doughs made with preferments (yeast only, Levain and hybrid leavening doughs). There are many other well known books that preface the why and how but all come back to flavor development. My analogy would be bottled orange juice is just fine and enjoyable for the vast majority of people, yet fresh squeezed tastes better. And is more complicated - if you can manage the variables (cost, available time to squeeze, equipment required, etc.). Neither is wrong, it is simply preference and the desired recipe, some more suited to preferments than others. Experiment and settle on what works best for you given all of the objectives, considerations and trade-offs involved.
Why would the preferment have more flavor, if both doughs were fermented for the same amount of time?
The preferment can be fermented much longer than the final dough (i.e. some it can tolerate some gluten degradation, since it only contains a portion of the flour). Then it can develop more (or even different) flavour due to extended fermentation, when at the same fermentation time full dough would be way overfermented.
Yes. I do that regularly in pursuit of the combination of assertive sour and good texture. My preferment is way too far gone to bake directly but when I combine it with more flour I can get get good gluten development and nice soft texture.
I think of it as getting another free variable.
I think it is a simple space issue compromise.
Professional bakeries don't have the space to overnight ferment entire batches of dough!
This is what I was going to say. I think the preferment strategy that has been handed down to home bakers came from professional bakeries that don't have the space for 100% preferment.
So they want the benefit of a preferment addition... flavor especially... some extensibility, I guess... but there's no way to work a 100% into the workflow with a ton of dough. (and can control temperature of small amounts Vs large amounts?... space issue again..)
Which then brings up the question, OK, why are home bakers doing it the way bakeries do it when we don't have the problem bakeries have... we are doing small amounts and we have the space for it.
The answer to that I will leave to more experienced bakers here. OP question seems valid to me...
I think it's important to distinguish between different types of preferment. Normally dough in a sponge suffers gluten degradation with time. Fact. So bread made with an overnight sponge will not rise as high as dough made with a 3 or 4 hour sponge. A straight dough will always rise the highest, but only as long as the fermentation time is short - this is controlled by the yeast rate and temperature. The more flour you add later in breadmaking, the stronger will be the final dough and the higher the rise.
On the other hand an overnight sponge will give a better flavoured bread. As others have said, just about every system of fermentation has been tried, and everything is a balance of plus and minus. Just pick which one gives you what you want.
A biga is a special case because it is of very low hydration (classically 45%) and the biga should be produced in shreds, not a solid mass, so it doesn't ferment fully in the way that a sponge would. So the gluten is not degraded the way it would be in a sponge or poolish.
Of course, the poolish is thin, usually 100% hydration, so it is not possible to ferment all the flour in this case.
Lance
I disagree when you say that 'a sponge fermented overnight will not rise as high as a sponge made within just 3 or 4 hours', and also 'the more flour you add later in breadmaking, the stronger the final dough and the higher the rise'.
Acid produced during fermentation can most certainly help with strength in the dough, and therefore lead to a higher rise. Same goes for enzymes, that can help with extensibility.
"A biga is a special case because it is of very low hydration (classically 45%) and the biga should be produced in shreds, not a solid mass, so it doesn't ferment fully in the way that a sponge would. So the gluten is not degraded the way it would be in a sponge or poolish.". And this is exactly what i am talking about. I understand that a poolish would not be able to make up 100% of the dough, but a biga? That is why i dont understand why people usually only ferment like 30% of the flour in a biga. Why not just all the flour, and then add the rest of the water afterwards?
All from the person's own perspective and all correct for their circumstances.
The only way to learn is to try. Have you tried it yet?
If you like the process then all well and good. If for any reason you don't like the process then it's not for you but doesn't mean it's incorrect.
I disagree when you say that 'a sponge fermented overnight will not rise as high as a sponge made within just 3 or 4 hours'
No, I said that the bread will not rise as high.
Acid produced during fermentation can most certainly help with strength in the dough, and therefore lead to a higher rise. Same goes for enzymes, that can help with extensibility.
But this is counteracted by the fact that the gluten is degraded with time by those very enzymes. And extensibility does not necessarily equate to a well risen bread.
That is why i dont understand why people usually only ferment like 30% of the flour in a biga. Why not just all the flour, and then add the rest of the water afterwards?
Well I agreed with you on this one and explained why. But bear in mind that a biga is often used as part of a composite flour mix where weaker flours might present and it is preferable for these not to ferment too long for reasons explained.
Eg you might be making a bread with 1/3 manitoba flour and 2/3 semola rimacinata. In this case, best practice would be to make a biga with the manitoba and add the semola the day after.
Lance
For me it's about control. I like long fermentations because they give me better flavor.
I can start a pre-ferment with a tiny tiny amount of yeast and safely let it rise overnight, often longer. Once it's risen or bubbly enough I can use it or put it in the fridge for a day. Then when I make up the final dough, depending on (a) how lively the pre-ferment looks and (b) how soon I want finished bread, I can add some more yeast.
I've done long-ferment straight doughs. There were several years a couple decades back when I made all my bread that way. The trouble with doing it that way is you have much less control over when the dough is ready. Sometimes it gets happy too soon. Other times it kind of gives up. Now, if I were a pro, baking every day and able to achieve constant temperatures in proofing rooms and so forth, I could dial in the right timings and amounts of yeast. But I am not a pro and home is home. Temperatures vary. Stuff happens.