February 5, 2022 - 8:00pm
Solod as inactive rye malt
Just a question on whether solod is an interesting sub for standard inactive rye malt powder. If so, what kinds of percentage limits might be reasonable in a hearty dark rye.
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Just a question on whether solod is an interesting sub for standard inactive rye malt powder. If so, what kinds of percentage limits might be reasonable in a hearty dark rye.
What's standard inactive rye malt powder?.. Tbh I wouldn't use any other inactive malt in rye bread, except red rye malt.
And probably don't go over 5%...
It's rye malt powder that is sprayed rye malt simply heated up to enzyme denaturation temps. It's not fermented, like Solod. It's available in Germany, for instance, but I've found nothing like it here.
I'm pretty sure any dark inactive rye malt for bread baking in Germany would be fermented, just like Russian or any other red rye malt.
FYI "solod" simply means "malt" in Russian, e.g. white rye solod is active rye malt, red rye solod is fermented and roasted rye malt, barley solod is barley malt, etc...
Thanks on the name.
To make any malt inactive it only has to reach 170F. Why would it need to be fermented first?
BTW - here's the German stuff.
Doesn't need to be, but it's obviously delicious when fermented, so that's why :) As far as I understand, in Germany they don't always specify that it's fermented in the name or description, because it just always is... Same in Russia, I think unless you go to brewing shops, rye malt is either active (white), or fermented and inactive (red).
Possibly I am wrong, but that's how I understand it.
Ilya, I'm having trouble with the reasoning. Fermentation has nothing to do with the malting or inactivation process - so why would that be a given? It substantially alters the flavor of a malted product. Ever had a fermented malt milk shake? :)
It could be that it's universal and they're simply not mentioning it for one reason or the other, but these powders are quite brown, not red. Perhaps a degree of roast, and they are all fermented. I've queried the German manufacturer.
I know it's not necessary. That's just the tradition, so it's not even worth mentioning since it's universal - as far as I understand. Red rye malt isn't really bright red, more dark brown, of varying shades, so I wouldn't say the colour by eye is useful here... Hopefully the manufacturer replies with an explanation! I'd like to know if I am assuming wrong too.
I've never had a fermented malt milk shake, actually, but just recently someone else recommended me to try it as well :) So perhaps I'll give it a taste next time I see it somewhere.
On the milk shake, joking man. You'd be a braver man than me. :)
What I mean to say is my presumption is it's traditional in Russian and Latvian breads, but don't know why it would be in German breads. I've certainly never tasted in German or Austrian breads what I taste when I taste breads with red rye malt. On NY Bakers Stanley sold red rye malt. Since I was looking for "Solod" to make Borodinsky, I thought I'd found a source. From Muntons, I believe, so I queried him. He confirmed the red rye malt is unfermented.
Since it's not needed, I wouldn't know why it's not mentioned in German baking suppliers. I just don't know of any tradition embedded so strongly in German baking like this it's a given and unmentioned. I very well could be wrong. Mariana probably knows, since she knows everything. :)
Thanks for pointing this up, it would be great to know.
Edit: Lol. You're almost certainly right, found this - though note they specifically label it as "fermented."
"
Roggenmalz fermentiertEin aus Roggen hergestelltes Malzpulver, welches (im Vergleich zu vielen anderen Produkten) trotz der dunklen Farbe einen sehr aromatischen Geschmack aufweist. Ideal zur Herstellung von körnigen Broten, aber auch Roggen- und Vollkornbroten, die einfach eine harmonische Krumenfarbe bekommen sollen."
Well, I was sort of joking about the milk shake - obviously, someone recommended a regular malted milkshake aka ovomaltine :) Which I have never tried either.
Rus Brot recommends for those in Europe to bye German rye malt for use in Russian recipes, since it's the same as Russian. Perhaps there aren't German recipes that rely so heavily on it for the flavour as Borodinsky, but it's certainly used :)
Indeed Stanley Ginsberg was selling faux-red rye malt, and he just recommends toasting rye malt to get it yourself. Which is obviously only a substitution for the real thing. Same with crystal rye malt - it also often has "red" in the name, but it's not fermented. But all these malts are designed for beer, not bread...
I was also waiting for mariana to weigh in :)
Hi Paul,
I am sure that suave knows more than me about solods and rye malts.
You are asking about two completely different ingredients.
Standard inactive rye malt powder is an ingredient in beer making. It is fermented or subjected to fermentation inside beer so to speak. And it contributes an amazing range of flavors to beers. IT is never used in bread making by any country by any people afaik.
The only exception is when people try to imitate the color of red fermented malt when they attempt to bake breads that require red fermented malt. after all, 'standard inactive rye malt powder' will be fermented inside rye sourdough eventually, thus the substitutions sort of works.
Solod, aka red fermented rye malt is an ingredient in kvass and bread making, both wheat and rye breads are made with it. It always contributes only one flavor to kvass and breads - that of red fermented rye malt. It is never used in beer making afaik.
Solod is used at the level of 5-7% in rye and rye-wheat breads and at the level of 5% in wheat breads. It is part of 100% total of flours in bread, so increasing its proportion would affect the crumb I guess, because it has no intact grain proteins nor intact grain starches that can contribute to the bread crumb, so its use is limited.
It's a misconception to say that solod is roasted. It is not. At least it should not be. It is red because sprouted rye grain is fermented to the point of changing its normal rye grain color to the color of rust. As rust color can vary from orangey to deep dark red, the same is with solod. Then it is simply dried out at somewhat elevated temperatures, around 60-70C, but not roasted. There is no Mailard reaction at such temperatures.
It is inactivated, but not burned, not toasted, to avoid producing aromas associated with toasting or roasting bread or grain.
As to why some nations use it and others don't... well it all boils down to history I guess. Some nations bake unleavened bread . Other nations bake leavened bread because they once noticed that their grain porridge left unattended fermented and baked into a spongy mass. Some nations bake their breads in all kinds of ovens, other nations never developed ovens and steam their breads (Chinese), yet others - fry them in fat (Native American Indians).
So it is with solod. Rye malt self-heated and fermented once left in tall rows where it was sprouted and left to dry I guess. And someone noticed its aroma and color and used it in making drinks and bread. Thus tradition arose.
Thanks for a timely post.
I currently have some rye sprouts (sprout length == berry length) that I've been fermenting since last evening and am sorting through various posts to determine my next step. I'm seeing slight indications of color change, and it does smell sweeter. Your post has steered me towards a longer fermentation until I see more discoloration before drying them out, and skipping the roast step from my previous attempt.
Mariana, you say there is no Maillard reaction at this temperature (I think it's actually raised to 90°C in the end?), but why is it dark then? I thought it would just occur slowly, but red rye malt takes multiple days to make, so it would have enough time... There are mentions of melanoidins as the primary colouring and flavouring agents in RRM, and they are produced by the Maillard reaction (http://www.bibliotekar.ru/7-napitki/62.htm).
Ilya,
I think the issue here is that caramelisation, Maillard rxn, and formation of melanoidins are three different reactions, or groups of reactions, and melanoids are formed even at 40C, while Maillard (browning reaction of proteins reacting with sugars) runs at 120-170C, and caramelisation of sugars (depending on specific sugars involved) at 105C (fructose) to 180C (maltose).
You gave link to the article that describes new experimental technology of solod production from Kiev scientists that was tested in one place in Ukraine. They developed that intensive method where they dried solod at temperatures up to 90C. Traditionally, fermented rye solod is dried at 40-70C. They shifted that range upwards to 45-90C.
The article that you linked explains that melanoidins are formed even at below 50C, so the color will be there no matter what, whether you use traditional or modern method of drying solod. They say that during the drying process, initially
My problem is that all I can find is that melanoidins are formed during the Maillard reactions between sugars and amino acids. So I just assumed it means it simply occurs slowly at low temperature, but the chemistry is the same (just lower temperature prevents any off- or burned flavours).
And I suppose fermentation produces a lot of amino acids, which would react with sugars in the malt, and with very low water content their effective concentration would get very high, so reaction is accelerated...
Apparently, Ukranian melanoidins in rye malt are peaking at 90C, they do not reach optimal French temperatures of 140-165C. :)
Wikipedia mentions though, that Maillard reaction can run very slowly at very low temperatures in acidic environment as well (and fermented rye malt is super acidic)
Oh I thought I'd seen it somewhere that high acidity is important for the process, but then all I could find is that the Maillard reaction actually happens faster at high pH. But perhaps with high acidity it doesn't slow down as much with lower temperature? Interesting find, thanks!
Thanks Mariana. So we understand each other, I was an experienced craft brewer working for an American regional brewery. I will toot my horn a bit to mention he only beer I entered in a contest won second in the Midwest region and was to go on to the national finals - until my in-laws drank the required samples. So much for glory.
Just to say I am steeped, or rather mashed, in all things brewing (I also trained through Heriot-Watt, Edinburgh, Scotland. I've just forgotten a ton due to cognitive issues relative to a CNS disease). So I'm familiar with rye malt, as regards brewing. To be honest, I've never seen inactive rye malt in brewing with the exception of crystal rye malt - which is a process whereby the malt saccharifies inside the kiln itself to various degrees of caramelization. Already mashed, so to speak. The only other I know is straight rye malt, mashed as any other brewing malt. I personally don't like it. The beta-glucans can be a pain in the ass though modern malting processes have helped with that (as they've helped with the modification of 6-row barley malts, used with adjuncts in industrial large scale brewing). I don't like the flavor, either. Many like it for a certain "spiciness" but that's not my bag. A very traditional British brewer in every way.
Thank you on the great info on Solod, I wasn't aware it isn't roasted and the color is due to the the spouting and fermentation process. That is so cool.
As to other, apparent (fermented) rye malt powders in Germany, I believe they are roasted. Brotdoc and I exchange quite a bit, and here is one he referred me to, for instance: Roggenmalz geröstet, or roasted rye malt, described as:
I've seen other examples enough to tell me they are roasted, and if fermented, obviously fermented, roasted rye malt powder. This isn't my area so I really don't know, just going on what I read. Maybe like the absence of labeling as fermentation, it's a labeling thing?
Ilya, this was one example of why I was confused as I know the malting and roasting process well, and thought this malt or "Roggenmalzpulver" was achieved without the "solod" process. That like crystal malts (or roasted barley, brown malts, or black malts, or black patent malts) - which in their range of 80 L have a reddish hue, with darker and browner hues coming on at higher lovibond - again, my presumption as to their being different hue, different and deeper process- this explained the difference between what (I thought, apparently) I was seeing in the solod examples, and the German rye malt powder examples.
Respectfully, maybe a quick question to your supplier would clear it all up? None of us are suppliers of German inactive rye malts.
I have made solod at home 2x and can attest it's red after fermentation/saccharification and has an amazing aroma that I miss in breads that don't call for it. I can also attest that I dried it too hot and fast the second time and ruined some of the fermentation aroma and flavour and it looked more brown to me.
Yes, you're right of course. You probably missed in all this that I said I queried one of the manufacturers, on the question:
Paul, this is what finished solod looks like prior to milling. Its peculiar color is due to lactic acid fermentation at high temperatures which can be imitated at home by adding sourdough starter to sprouted rye grain and keeping it at about 40-45С/105-115F until it reaches certain TTA and color. When the mass of sprouted rye looks like this, it is gently dried and milled.
It is fermented and dried at temperatures as low as 40C, so there is no roasting for sure.
I know nothing about German roasted fermented rye malt technology, but solod does occasionally have some burnt particles here and there just because the heating system or the drying process in the factory is not supervised carefully sometimes.
I find talking with beer makers who also bake bread difficult because beer makers think differently and use special language. They also try to understand or explain bread in terms of beer making processes and beer making ingredients.
The same happens to chefs (cooks and pastry chefs) who start baking bread. But bread is way too different, a thing on its own. At least that is what I discovered. My breadmaking efforts taught me that and they were painful lessons, with lots of failures along the way simply because I assumed things as a chef instead of thinking as baker when I mixed bread dough, fermented it or baked it.
Mariana, as to a "beer maker speaking of baking processes," you mentioned the use of inactive rye malt powder in brewing (
looks like you might have edited the post?I apologize - I thought you had changed the post to talk more of kvass, etc.), which is incorrect insofar as my experience and training knows. Hence, respectfully, you were "using the language" of baking in brewing.I don't think there's an issue anywhere here with an inability to see things through the prism of what they are, actually, and I think it would be best to let that go, whether here or by PM.
I haven't edited the post and I did not refer to you, although you are both superb as a chef and as a beermeister. And you bake great bread! I have nothing but praise for you.
I was talking about my struggles in the past when I worked with great French and Spanish chefs, pastry chefs, or pizza makers who were not able to bake bread for our restaurants and screwed it all the time, and myself, because I started baking bread many years after I became a chef and was misunderstanding bread recipes and their underlying assumptions. I also struggled with experienced beer makers who would come to my blog to ask for bread making advice and we would struggle terribly due to the language barrier. It's as if one was speaking Chinese and another - Swahili. Such specialists are very difficult to retrain.
OK, Mariana. Since I mentioned my brewing experience and you mentioned how you find it difficult to speak to brewers (who tend to bring their worldview into the world of baking), I didn't know what else to conclude. I'd just like us to move past assumptions, i.e., not moved by "personalities" or some kind of barrier to understanding, but just seeking a better understanding, I would hope, like all of us here. It's a mutual accord of seeking better bread, that's all. I assure you, I think as I've said many places, I hold you in the highest regard. And as I corrected, again I apologize for misstating you'd edited your post.
Just a couple sources, seems to confirm roasted rye malt powder:
https://www.bakelssweden.se/en/products/rye-malt-powder/ : malted and roasted rye.
https://teltomalz.de/malze/ : (It is fermented, and they label it so):
Roggenmalzpulver
Malzmehl fermentiert (ROGGEN)
für Brot und Kleingebäck, geschmacks- und farbverbessernd, dunkel, fermentiert, aromatisch, malzig, kräftige Krumenfarbe, Farbe: 120-300 EBC, hergestellt aus gemälztem und gedarrtem Roggen
"Rye malt = coloring malt
This malt has nothing to do with baking malt.It is roasted , malted and then ground rye.
It colors the crumb and gives the bread a very nice, malty taste.
You should add between 1 - 4% of the flour amount of malt. I add 8 g to a 1-kilo bread."
I'm still confused about the rye malt products. It is not clear on some of the German rye malts whether they are fermented. The Teltomalz product from Germany states that it is fermented. This product (Link) from Hobbybäcker does not mention fermented, but does state roasted. Does the Brotdoc have anything to say about fermented/roasted on Facebook? I'm not on Facebook, so I can't ask.
To add to the confusion, there are several barley malts of varying roast that are available in Europe. Teltomalz, Weyermann, and others produce them as does Muntons in the UK. Bakery Bits (Link) in the UK also sells these malt powders (probably Muntons) and malted wheat flakes and Nuttimalt (kibbled wheat malt). I would love to have access to these malt products here in the USA. Muntons and Briess sell these malt powders in the USA but not at the retail level. Lesaffre also sells the malted wheat flakes but, again, not at the retail level.
I think we concluded inactive rye malt for bread baking is always fermented.
But not any other kind.
That's my conclusion too, but I agree with alcophile it's all a bit confusing, with at least one indicating "fermented" on the label and, presumably, all others (of the ones I sampled/looked over) not including the notation (given German strictures on labeling, much tighter than in the States I believe, I find this particularly puzzling). That, and the notion of roasted or non-roasted RRM in German production is something I'm also still puzzled by.
Just a reminder I've contacted one manufacturer on this question and if I get a reply, I'll obviously post it here.
The main point of the thread, for me, is one of flavor. I'd thought that red rye malt as I knew it from RusBrot and here, the product which in my view gives a very specific (and very good) flavor to Russian and certain Baltic breads, was not the same product in German breads - because no German breads I've tried** taste like what I've tasted when I either use the RRM or buy what I'd presume has RRM, from our local Russian store (of course, we all know what presuming can do for you). In other words, if I use the solod I bought from the Russian store and put it in a German bread formula calling for "inactive rye malt powder," will it taste peculiar by a German sensory standard, or taste as expected - because it's in essence the same stuff.
That is my real question.
**I haven't tried that many. We have a "German" bakery here, and I've had German breads from putatively authentic German bakeries in Chicago and elsewhere, but I've not been to Germany and so haven't had German breads in Germany.
I guess I did not come to the same conclusion after reading all the posts. It was stated that red rye malt was never roasted and that the color of the malt was only from the fermentation process. But several vendors of German-style red rye malt specifically state that it is roasted. So it seems there may be some difference in the two materials and substitution of Russian-style solod for Germanic Roggenmalz dunkel may not be correct.
My German is not good enough to inquire with the German or Austrian suppliers of rye baking malt. That's why I asked about Brotdoc (or Lutz Geißler) weighing in on the question.
Lutz Geißler has done not one, but two hour-long podcasts with German malt producers:
https://www.ploetzblog.de/2021/05/17/podcast-episode-27-interview-mit-ulrich-ferstl-ueber-die-malzherstellung-und-malzverwendung/
https://www.ploetzblog.de/2021/01/25/podcast-episode-19-interview-mit-dr-friedrich-mertz-ueber-malze/
Unfortunately no transcripts ...
Thanks Mike! Great chance for me to know enough to be completely lost, lol.
j/k. Thanks man. I'll listen and re-listen and re-listen......
BTW, have you seen the various pages on Brotdoc's site, his visits to various places, millers, bakeries and bakers? Beautiful photography. I'm actually on the Lorettohof and his visit there - this is the (former - sold in 2021) place of the Swabian baker Günther Weber. I also got to him through Lutz. I have to stumble through, but I like his book a lot.
I didn't even know the place is located in Zwiefalten, Baden-Württemberg. I'm pretty keyed to go there because my family comes from Baden-Württemberg and nearby, traced centuries back.
Thanks, Mike. Do you know if there is a way to translate the audio to English or to transcribe audio to text? I would really be interested in learning from this podcast. Thanks!
https://blog.google/products/translate/transcribe-speech/
Looks like that's an app for live speech as it's happening, on Android? Wow, that's awesome, thanks Yippee! In terms of translating the stuff I don't understand in German, a German baker I exchange with recommended DeepL over Google Translate as a better translator into actual idiom (sometimes google was too "literal," and you know how that can get screwed up). I like DeepL, but I like google translate as well (and the digitalized voices are better, if I want to hear a word).
Looks like that's an app for live speech as it's happening, on Android? Wow, that's awesome, thanks Yippee! In terms of translating the stuff I don't understand in German, a German baker I exchange with recommended DeepL over Google Translate as a better translator into actual idiom (sometimes google was too "literal," and you know how that can get screwed up). I like DeepL, but I like google translate as well (and the digitalized voices are better, if I want to hear a word).
After searching it seems like everywhere, confirming I've found at least one source indicating "inaktive Roggenmalzpulver" is via fermentation:
To get there I followed the rabbithole seemingly everywhere. Rabbithole story short, I ended up on RusBrot's site, where he mentions the Baumagazin article wherein he compares their info on malt to red rye fermented malt:
I think it's important to clear just a few things up. Crystal and Melanoidin (and Munich) malt are made by different processes, neither of which are made nor are they intended to be made ("should be....technologies similar to fermented malt") using fermentation. One German malt, sauermalz, actually is a fermentative malt. See below.
Crystal malt is produced by essentially mashing the malt corn itself in a rotating drum cylinder, at temperatures normal for saccharification (149-158F). They can then be roasted to various degrees to achieve different color and flavor effects in the wort by caramelization and maillard reactions.
Melanoidin malt is a German barley malt (there is no such thing as a "melanoidin rye malt") produced by the Weyermann Malt Company. In my opinion, it's a bit of a cheat to try and capture the buildup of melanoidins obtained via the process of traditional German decoction mashing (mash temperatures achieved by drawing off a portion of the mash itself and boiling it, returning it - and it's intense melanoidins - to the main mash vessel to heat to the next step).
It is a proprietary process, kept under tight seal. Along with Belgian "Aromatic Malt," it is made much like "Munich Malt" first developed towards the middle of the 19th century. Unlike brown, black malts or roasted grains, these malts are kilned very gently, around 50C, which dehydrates the corn slowly, recirculating moist air to support both amino acid and reducing sugar production. The corn then undergoes a relatively quick kilning at various degrees for various grades of "Munich malt" in terms of darkness and nuttiness/"maltiness" (if you've ever had a Märzen or similar style (or Dos Equis Amber, for example - history of German lager brewing in the 19th century transplanted to Mexico), you've had Vienna and or Munich malts). This process is classic melanoidin production. Because of the slow and gentle dehydration kilning, diastatic enzymes are preserved and so there is plenty of "diastatic power" to convert the munich malt starches, as well as the starches of most malts, though limited ability to deal with brewing adjuncts (not usually seen except in industrial applications anyway).
German sauermalz is "base" or pale malt that undergoes lactic acid fermentation post-kilning. Because of the "Reinheitsgebot," the "German Purity Law of 1516," German brewers needed a way to adjust the pH of wort for optimal starch conversion to sugar (the pH range is 5.2-5.4), without the benefit of added phosphoric or lactic acid (I've used both sulfuric and hydrochloric, a British thing, so go figure!). It is also very useful as a flavoring agent for sour beers such as Berliner Weisse. I just came across a couple threads referencing RusBrot's review of the German magazine and somehow it moved to Berliner Weisse, but these concepts are erroneously conflated. All these processes, and all these malts, are completely different.
All these products are anything but "dust from the road....". That's nonsense. They're wonderful, each to their intended purpose.
So we got there, I think, but it's certainly easy to get screwed up.
To put a pin in it, heard back from Hobbybaecker, who finally clarified,
"der Artikel ist auch fermentiert."
This is my second attempt at making a home solod for Borodinsky. I soaked and drained the berries then waited until the sprout length was equal to the berry length. I then kept it at 105F for about 6 days, before drying it at < 115 F. I had started the process before much of this discussion. It was a wild fermentation, so I didn't achieve the dark rust color shown above. Next time I will soak in a rye sour before fermenting. Regardless, there is a nice flavor and it reminds me a little bit of tamarind powder (it is an addictive flavor). Since I've never had solod, I'm not sure if this is a passable for use in Borodinsky. Perhaps a nice flavor enhancer for basic rye bakes?
[details]
In case you are not aware of these methods:
Mariana's
https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/69900/how-i-make-sourwort#comment-502951
Rus Brot's
https://youtu.be/CTa19hYag4Q
Or, buy it from the distributor in Brooklyn
https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/65993/red-rye-malt#comment-488034
Yippee
Thank you for the links. I have read the first sourwort thread, but your pointer to mariana's post is helpful, I had been fermenting the damp sprouts covered in a container at 105F.
From this comment, I believe the fermentation step should actually be immersed in water (possibly with a little rye starter).
It looks like the Rus Brot video steps through this in detail. That's exactly what I was looking for. I'll review and compare my process with the one outlined in the video.
> Or, buy it from the distributor in Brooklyn
I live in Brooklyn, so perhaps I can order that (and malt syrup) without a 6 week shipping time.
I've bought rye chocolate malt, red rye crystal malt, and fermented red rye malt.
Neither of the first two are a substitute for the last!
If you want to try it, it's not cheap, but don't waste your time trying "alternatives". It would be like trying to find a substitute for pomegranate juice, ain't gonna be the same.
You can find it on eBay. There are some from Ukraine and last I looked a guy in Brooklyn was selling it. I spent over $50 for a little over a Kilo. Worth every penny. But I will try my hand at fermenting my own to save $ and for the adventure.