January 13, 2022 - 11:16am
*real* Pumpernickel?
So, my husband grew up with Norweigian and German heritage, and he remembers fondly a bread he called pumpernickel. Unfortunately what he calls pumpernickel and the recipes I am finding are nothing close. He describes a very dense bread, possibly with whole grains in it, that was sourdough for sure (tangy I think is the word he described) brown in colour but not really dark. He said it was "square." Could someone tell me what I am looking for in terms of a recipe? Obviously it has another name, because I'm drawing a blank. His birthday is coming up and I'd like to make him one.
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Have you looked up schwarzbrot? I am not one to rely on, but I think that might be what you're looking for. Google "Rheinisches Schwarzbrot." Or go to a few wonderful sites, if you haven't gone to them:
https://www.ploetzblog.de/
https://brotdoc.com/
http://hanseata.blogspot.com/2016/06/friesisches-schwarzbrot-hearty-rye-from.html
There are also tons of people here who are really expert-level. Begging forgiveness from the plethora of names I forget as I have a terrible problem with memory, but MiniOven, mariana, Ilya Flyamer come to mind most immediately.
You can search the sites for specific breads. Here's just a sample:
https://brotdoc.com/2020/01/12/schwarzbrot-grundrezept/
https://www.ploetzblog.de/2016/07/30/alm-rezepte-rheinisches-schwarzbrot/
I do wish I could read German, because according to his visual memory the "Emmer" photo was pretty close. Now I have an idea of where to go. Thanks!
My German is pretty poor. I use the add-on or whatever it is called in Chrome that allows me to translate any page. Though I hate reading in translation!
One approach is to start from the flour-- somewhat coarse, whole grain rye is known as pumpernickel I believe (vs knockoff "pumpernickel breads" that use coffee and whatnot for flavour and colour).
Then you can look at recipes based on that ingredient of whole grain rye flour.
For instance, the rye baker website has such recipes from the locales you mentioned. To cope with the whole grain rye ingredient (no usable gluten, fast fermentation) they rely on multi-stage processes to build a rye sour, levain, sponge, etc. that get combined into the final bake.
So the key ingredient, and the processes needed to handle it result in a unique product. I've quite enjoyed making such rye breads.
https://www.thebreadshebakes.com/2014/08/baking-traditional-real-german-pumpernickel-bread/
Yeah this is the real thing, another version: http://brotgost.blogspot.com/2018/01/pumpernickel.html (switch on the google translate on top right)
Ok that westphalian one is wild enough that I will have to try making one. I have a kilo of rye berries in the cupboard... and this recipe uses maple syrup. Thanks for the link.
I looked at Ilya's link as well. Thanks, too. Translation didn't work so well for me but I'll compare them.
I was wondering what the next project would be.
Thanks to the original poster for asking.
"Note, that I cover even the Pullman tin in these additional layers. Place the wrapped tins at the bottom shelf of the oven and bake for approximately 14 hours (best done overnight)".
This is the secret to Westphalian Pumpernickel (I believe). This long low temperature bake brings out the flavour. It's not a soft bread, meant to be a dense rye full of caramel flavours. Cut thinly and enjoy.
I'm looking forward to seeing your project. I believe it's been done a few times on TFL with Dabrownman springing to mind.
I've never tried it, but always been intrigued. Unfortunately my Pullman doesn't have a lid, so I've always depended on rolling the foil tightly around the rim. OK for shorter bakes up to 3 hours, but afraid to risk it for a true pumpernickel bake. Also, I don't have it in front of me, but doesn't Ginsberg's version (from his book) come without any leavening at all? I've avoided for that reason, too - sauerteig is too fun!
I have to try it. This recipe looks delicious.
What about using oven bags? They're rated for much higher temps than this recipe.
https://www.cooksinfo.com/oven-bags
I wouldn't like to advise. I've seen people doing this bread in cans!
My Austrian neighbour said her mom used to bake this kind of bread in old tomato juice cans! I'm guessing you're not too far off.
Yeah that's the suggestion on the link I posted. Seal the pan with foil and place in an oven bag.
a bread that relies solely on flavour. it's a meal bread with malt and the rest is in the bake. Some do have leavening but it doesn't transform much into a less dense bread. The sourdough is probably more for a flavour a little leavening.
https://youtu.be/NXwuJlY3uy0
Sure looks and sounds delicious. But in case you don't live near a hot spring then there are other recipes which can be done in an oven. Here is King Arthur's version:
https://www.kingarthurbaking.com/recipes/icelandic-rye-bread-rugbraud-recipe
Although it is also a rye bread baked by low-temperature steaming, that Icelandic bread is (at least in my experience) completely different from a German-style pumpernickel. It is made with fine flour and highly sweetened; in terms of texture and flavor it is cake-like, much closer to a pain d'épice/soft gingerbread without the spices. Quite a different experience compared to the coarse rye and natural malt sweetness of a pumpernickel!
I should probably place a caveat that I've only had store-bought versions, who knows what kind of variations Icelanders are cooking up in their backyard hotsprings ... we were told that it is often baked in used milk cartons in practice (maybe wrapped in foil?).
Cheers,
Mike
because it is rye and looks delicious. In no way is it similar at all. Just this talk of rye bread jogged my memory. It does look like a sift gingerbread. I think it'll be very tasty and more like a cross between bread and cake.
I see no reason why it can't be done as a sourdough and baked like a pumpernickel. Might be an interesting experiment. I imagine the bicarbonate of soda and baking powder makes it more cake like whereas yeast or sourdough will make it more like bread. The cartons idea is very much like baking pumpernickel in a can.
It is delicious for sure! The buttermilk or milk used as the liquid also contribute to a more "cake-like" product.
There are various recipes on the internet (you can also search for "Thunder Bread") but I haven't tried replicating it myself. GIve it a shot!
It's thunder! Just had a quick look. Very similar. Slightly less sugar but still overloaded. Seems like they have a sweet tooth in Iceland. Looks very nice!
Have a Danish Rugbrod planned for my next bake but bookmarked this recipe. Thanks!
This post inspired me to pull out the Nordic Baking Book by Magnus Nilsson. Definitely a sweet bread, more like a dessert. I baked it in an oven-safe saucepan, wrapped in aluminum foil and topped with a weighed-down baking sheet, for 13 hours or so.
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You have done this bread justice. I've been wanting to try this bread for ages but need to get my head around the sugar added and baking time. It just looks, and sounds, so tasty. Somewhere between a cake and a bread. I've heard it described as more like a ginger cake.
Looked at many recipes, and bakes, for this Icelandic bread and yours gives them all a run for their money.
Excellent.
That’s very kind! All the credit goes to the high-quality oven-safe nonstick saucepan my husband bought for making masala chai. The bread fell right out with no need to oil the pan or anything.
You should definitely try it. There is a lot of sugar, but it’s quite a sizable loaf, and I’m sure there would be plenty of takers if you wanted to share.
I'd be round for a slice or two. I aim to try this as soon as I can. Just need to work out the logistics and see what's the best way to make this loaf with the slow cooker, and utensils, I have.
Good idea!
Wow, looks delicious!
It says cultured milk. Did you use buttermilk? Yogurt? I’m probably going to 1/2 the recipe and use my steamed pudding pot with a lid and steam it. What do you think about that?
I used buttermilk. It is quite a loose batter, but bakes up fine.
I’m no expert, but sounds like that would work.
But since you say loose batter I am even more likely to steam it. I steam a date pudding that my grandmother made in the early 1900's and it comes out like it's baked but very moist. I think chopped dates would be wonderful in this pumpernickel as well. will post back. Yours looks delicious !!
https://www.daringgourmet.com/how-to-make-golden-syrup/ how to make your own Lyles syrup. Way cheaper than buying it. Will have a go this weekend
I told him I couldn't make it cause I didn't have a pullman....got one of those for Christmas. <sigh> no more excuses. but he *did* buy a tiny little pullman....so
How tiny is the Pullman pan? I am looking for a Pullman pan smaller than the 9×4×4 inch one I have. A 4-lb. loaf of even a good bread is sometimes too much.
I’ve seen pullman pans that bake a cube shaped loaf, approximately 4x4x4” for example this one on amazon.com
Measured in cm, then realized you were in inches. Mine is 3 1/2x3 1/2 x 8 inches. so probably close in size to yours.
Would it be cheating to buy a loaf?
We can get them in South African supermarkets, baked in Germany in long life packaging, something like this.
Edit: Here's an Amazon link for the folks in the States.
-Jon
We have them here too. Many brands. It's baked rye meal with salt, water and either yeast or starter.
Thinly sliced and nice toasted.
also I'm in Canada, haven't seen this type of bread in the bigger grocery stores, and our Sweedish Deli (which used to be a source) went out of business. (that was a very sad day for many reasons - bread was the least of them) He just really wants it "fresh." Even though he probably never had it fresh in his life, I think I've spoiled him with not having bought a loaf of bread in years...
This one is the closest in looks, I'll give it a try, I think I have all the ingredients. Thank you.
and tell us how it went. Looking forward!
I don't believe the addition of a sweetener would be traditional in Pumpernickel. But it probably is a delicious bread!
Wish we had a like button here, this "picture" looks like the real thing he says. Now if I could figure out how to get the oven down to 120 df I'd be golden! This is truly in the realm of my Easy Bake Oven....
Recipes were in celcius
Thought to myself, this can't be right? Then noticed in was C. duh.
For anyone interested or who has comments, I posted a plan for a half-size version and that is also more usable for me during actual prep
https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/69696/plan-halfsize-german-pumpernickel-simplified
"The Rye Baker" by Stan Ginsberg (former poster here on TFL)
Book or website.
http://theryebaker.com/
My favorite pumpernickel is THIS ONE . I love to add chopped dates to my chewy rye.
He has tons of recipes from all over the world. The hard part for you may actually be obtaining rye flour. It has become much more expensive and scarce if you are in the USA. Make sure you read his explanation of the different rye flours and grinds.
Have fun!
I'm in Canada, and I have no problem with the rye, have a 10 gallon bucket full of berries and a mill! We eat a lot of rye breads. I'm also surprised that rye is hard to find in the USA, I can get it at any grocery store.
it would have rye _meal_ (which is coarser than flour) and maybe cracked grains a.k.a. "schrot."
Have him peruse google/duckduckgo for photos until he finds one that looks right, then if the link doesn't have a recipe, send the link to Mini.
Here's a recipe that uses rye meal:
http://nybakers.com/recipes/Sauerteig_roggenbrot.pdf
I struggled with that as well until I found Horst Bandel Dark German Pumpernickel in Hamelman's "Bread". It takes a three days to make but it is the tastiest bread I've ever make. Here's the recipes. You have to soak Rye Berries and develop a sourdough. At the end the dough will have the consistency of thick batter and is baked in loaf pans. The 1 -4x weights are in grams. I have a mill so I make the Rye Chops myself. They are very hard to find although if you have a good selection of Bob's Red Mill products you might be able to find Rye Chops. Good luck. Hope your husband enjoys it.
Regards,
Big Crusty
I hope you didn't type this all out just for me....
I tried this one years ago and screwed it up as I'd not sealed well enough. As I'm on a bit of a project working through Hamelman cover to cover, I'll be swinging back around!
FYI - awhile back I had the query on chops from Baker's Authority. They carry Ardent Mills chops, which are actually chops. Janie's carries cracked rye. I've not noticed any appreciable difference myself, though it would be worth a dedicated series of trials to really see.
To: C Fraenkel,
No typing,
I have a huge spreadsheet with 30+ recipes on it. Another note I cover the pans with aluminum foil while it's baking othewise the berries will get very hard. My wife doesn't like that.
Regards,
Big Crusty
Those require whole rye kernels as part of the “flour” for the bread. Your husband may have had something like that, based on the description provided.
Paul
I'll check that out.
LOL, Paul, I literally was just going back through PM's as I recall you are one of the aforementioned rye wizards, but I couldn't recall your username. Voila - please add Mr. McCool to the list of honorees!
"West German Breads" by Seibel et al describes pumpernickel as a sliced bread of Westfalia.
The surface is square and very dark – nearly black. It is nearly without crust. The crumb is very compact, slightly sticky and dark (as a result of a long baking time at low temp). Flavor is slightly sweet and tart.
Recipe includes single stage Monheim salt sourdough, a 12-15 hr soaker at 50°C, a little old bread and beet syrup, with yeast in the final mix. It is made with mostly coarse rye whole meal, with a smaller amount of medium rye whole meal in the final mix.
Baking is done in square, closed pans, which are double-walled and filled with water. Bake is at 150-100°C for 100-104 hours. Slice after 24-48 hr, putting paper between the slices.
Charbono, is that book still available, do you know?
it is only available used. It is Ch 7 of Advances in Cereal Science and Technology, Volume II, 1978, ed Pomeranz.
OK thanks.
Here found another good looking recipe.
https://www.homebaking.at/en/pumpernickel-mit-grobem-schrot/
Interesting in that it uses rye malt, altus, and added yeast.
Do you think that rye malt would be fermented?
the version Abe posted used maple syrup. Do you think rye malt could be subbed? (maple syrup is 33% water, 68% sugar). Is malt a think in pumpernickel?
With an explanation about added maple syrup or molasses...
It seems like the original recipe relies purely on the bake to bring about the caramelisation with more modern interpretations adding things in like maple syrup and molasses in place of the long bake. Well, at least according to this recipe. The recipe I found which claims to be "authentic pumpernickel" seems to incorporate both! Adding the maple syrup and baking at a low temperature for a long time.
Having looked at many recipes and having bought pumpernickel it would seems the ingredients are simple - Rye Meal, Water, Salt and Sourdough Starter - and the rest is all in the bake.
Yeah from what I understand, that's generally correct. But I think there are variations in how sweet it is in Germany as well, and adding sweeteners (not maple syrup traditionally, of course, more likely malt extract, beet syrup, or just sugar) might be an authentic variation. But I'm not an expert.
If adding malt, it certainly would be fermented RRM.
Malt could be a thing; maple syrup, not so much. I did not know this, but Westfälischer Pumpernickel is an EU protected specialty (see here). The ingredients are rye, water, and salt (reminds me of the Reinheitsgebot for beer). Yeast, malt, and sugar-beet syrup may also be added. It doesn't specify whether the malt is of the fermented variety, although I'm sure a dark color would result from the Maillard reaction in any event.
Can you post a link to the page?
Westfälischer Pumpernickel (PGI) just means that only bread made in Westphalia can be called Westphalia Pumpernickel. I'm not sure it actually gives a standard recipe. It's just a stamp for bread coming from that region. I'm sure there are variants and the original will be rye meal, water, salt, starter.
There is a list of allowed ingredients here, no recipe: http://www.westfaelischer-pumpernickel.de/en/protected-specialty/little-almost-black-loaf/
So while it's made of nothing but wholemeal and grains of rye with hulls and shoots as well as water and salt (the original recipe) there are other "accepted" add-ins.
Indeed, so malt and sweetening (I think sugar beet syrup can be replaced with something else and the recipe would remain "authentic", whatever that means) are allowed, and also yeast - for a less sour bread, I guess.
is just for rise. As for sour it's just rye meal and some wholemeal wheat baked for a long time. Not sure if it's meant to be sour per se or that yeast will change the flavour much when it's just mixed and baked. The only thing that might change the flavour is the syrup or if sourdough is added.
I think yeast would be used in conjunction with sourdough to reduce the rising time and hence reduce sourness.
Then add another to make it less sour? That can be done with sourdough and the syrup or less sourdough or no sourdough. Is this bread supposed to rise? In which case one can just add some for flavour and bake straight away. From the sound of things the original recipe would be just to mix and bake.
I looked at the Mestemacher GmbH site to see what is in their westfälischer Pumpernickel. The ingredient list is: Whole rye meal (60 %), water, sugar beet syrup, salt, malt extract (barley), yeast. I don’t know if its pumpernickel is considered “authentic” by German standards, but it is at least one example from a bakery in Westphalia.
The Deutschen Lebensmittelbuches (German Food Book) lists this process:
Not being one to actually stick to a recipe...I read all of your suggestions and pulled ideas from them all and read the recipe notes in Hamelman. I didn't have any old bread hanging around so his recipe was out (just turned it all in to bread crumbs for cooking) so I built up a rye levain and went with a recipe similar to what HappyCat posted here
https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/69696/plan-halfsize-german-pumpernickel-simplified
My modifications were that I used Cane syrup, used *all* of the preferment, put a handful of Einkorn in the mix because I felt like it needed some finer flour and that was what I had milled and sitting on the counter, and timings.
My granddaughter came to visit and spending time with family came before mixing bread. So I mixed after she left at around 7:00pm, left it on the counter until I went to bed around 10:30pm put it in loaf pans tripple wrapped with foil and popped it in the fridge overnight. I'm either crazy or stupid for wrapping first, but I knew that the bread needed to stay moist, and I wasn't going to be able to do much with it except wait for more rise, which I understand isn't really a thing. I tucked the loaves into the oven with a baking sheet on top of them this morning at 220dF and will leave it there until I go to bed tonight. I plan to turn the oven off and just leave it there overnight so I get close to 24 hours in the oven. Then I'll wrap in towels and rest for another 24 hours.
be sure to check on it and if the loaf is getting too browned and very hard, turn off the heat sooner.
Mini, for his "Hütten-Pumpernickel" Geissler says "minimum" of 16 hours (120C falling to 80C). Would you start checking at that time, or sooner?
but I would rely on my sense of smell during this bake. I have not baked this recipe. There is a lot of stored moisture in the cooked grains but the mixture in the pan looks a bit dry to me. I dont expect too much rise from a retarded rye unless there is enough wheat in it to keep the gasses from leaking out during the refrigeratation.
To guess, I would check the bake if the aromas started to give off toasting type aromas after the caramel aromas, to catch the bake before anything starts burning.
OK thanks, great advice, Mini. That's my bent too, and my final baking times after venting and dropping temps are variable accordingly.
Funny - just the other day - my son had been wanting me to make boeuf bourguignon and a half hour in, we were in the LR and I asked, "is that smelling too strong?", meaning, it smelled fantastic but was too developed for the short time in the supposedly cooler oven. Went to check and sure enough the oven was 25F hot.
Hi Mini,
I don't think it was dry, but I'll keep my nose on it anyway.
Well, rise = close to zero. Smells great. Shouldn't have listened to that suggestion to only half fill the pans, my gut told me I wasn't going to get much rise. So I stacked them up and now have them wrapped in a tea towel where they will stay for an agonizing 24 hours. Breakfast tomorrow! They smell really good, caramelized, almost a molasses like smell.
Volkonbrot.jpg
You can always cut horizontally instead of vertically to get the desired slice size. Slice using a sharp thin long knife to cut instead of serrated one. Try both and compare. I wrap my heavy ryes tightly after coolig in very lightly oiled plastic wrap or inside a bag or supported inside two bowls stacked lip to lip. It could happen that a tight wrapping might bond the two loaves together overnight. ???
was not a problem! We are just fine with smaller size of the slices, this is a really rich bread, so it was actually nice to have it smaller. Now I have to go see what I can find for Liverworst for him. Cheese and smoked meat were apparently wrong (half a loaf later)
Yum! Husband thinks it's perfect, and I think it's pretty darn tasty. Nice and moist, caramelized. I feel like it's a little bit too sour (probably that overnight retard) and could use more salt, but it's a hearty dense delicious loaf. Will definitely do this again, his comment "yum, where is the liverworst?"
I love the look of that one. This is great motivation to take the pumpernickel plunge.
the taste of fresh basil comes to tasting like liverwurst. Try some cream cheese with fresh shreaded cut leaves pressed onto the cheese. If you can't get the real thing.
I've found that most overnight retards are too risky with full rye breads, the matrix falls apart, gasses escape.
If the recipe says to retard, that's a different story.
Well, granddaughter trumped dough mixing, so my option was start over or retard. Honestly it was okay, the texture and taste (other than being a bit sour) was great. So I deem this a success.
I'm going to go looking for some fresh basil, liverworst is just not my thing. Thanks!
The word pumpernickel is an Americanism, or rather a non-Germanism.
The dark colored bread in the United States named pumpernickel is not strictly found in Germany. I speak German, have lived in Germany and have travelled extensively to Germany for 25 years. I leave for Frankfurt and Cologne in two days.
In Germany, it's simply roggenbrot. Rye bread. The dark color comes from malt extract. Small canape loaves of moist dark rye bread wrapped in plastic are labeled "pumpernickel" outside of Germany. I have worked with German nationals who have brought to the US their thinly sliced canape rye bread because nothing comparable is available in the US.
Another dark bread is rugbrød from Denmark. This is similar in nature to German rye bread, although it has differences in ingredients and method. Rugbrød is nearly black in color. I missed the opportunity to buy some of this in the Copenhagen airport and chastise myself for this regularly! :)
I, too, am confused by your comment. In my earlier post in this thread (Comment 500264), I posted product information for westfälischer Pumpernickel I found on the Mestemacher GmbH website. These loaves wrapped in plastic or tins are clearly intended for the German (and European) market.
I also found information on the composition of Pumpernickel from the Deutschen Lebensmittelbuche–Leitsätze für Brot und Kleingebäck.
Granted, I have never been to Germany, but it seems there are references to Pumpernickel in Germany. I am also looking for clarification.
I actually missed your post. Thanks alcophile.
Bit puzzled - there's an EU PGI (like an AOC in France) protecting the name and makeup of Westfälischer Pumpernickel:
And I just made a "Hütten-Pumpernickel" from Lutz Geissler - this particular one doesn't contain any malt extract. It's really dark, I believe, because of it's use of whole rye, schrot specifically, in three grades; and the low, long bake ensuring both caramelization and extensive maillard reactions.
I'm speaking from very limited experience, nothing comparable to what you have, so just looking for clarification. Thanks.
Paul
Often the origins of food names have conflicting ideas. There may be many stories on how names came to be. Some more historical and others folklore. I've seen a few stories and ideas but never the name "pumpernickel" being anything other than Germanic. The recipe has changed (or adulterated) when other countries adopted this bread and began altering it for their own palate or making use of other ingredients to mimic colour and/or taste without relying on technique.
https://www.visualthesaurus.com/cm/wordroutes/the-devilish-origins-of-pumpernickel/
Yes, Pumpernickel may be a roggenbrot but not every roggenbrot is a pumpernickel.
Very nice looking Pumpernickel! Paul.
According to Abe's link the name came from French: "Pain pour Nicol", where Nicol was someone's horse.
So... it wasn't originally German, but it's been adopted into German for so long, it's German now.
Later on in the article it goes on to say... "The bon pour Nicol story evidently originated as a seventeenth-century German joke that got taken seriously somewhere along the way".
Pumpernickel is a German word. Have no fear! Your Mini is here!
One of the funniest things about looking it up from my lcation are the adverts that pop up. All in German language and had to do with flatulents, gas and upset stomachs, hemorrhoids etc. made my day! Thanks Semolina!
Bread spice is used a lot in traditional rye bread. Things like fennel which may help with gastric stress.
I really like the tradition, especially when it's done subtly and you can't really taste specific spices terribly much (like salt for me in cooking - it's there, it lends a certain something, but not "saltiness"). More, a certain complexity, layering, length on the palate. Love grinding them in mortar and pestle, the smell is insanely wonderful.
Thanks for the nice compliment, Abe!
Beautiful hearty looking loaf Paul, nicely baked.
Benny
Thanks Benny!
I have a feeling the rye CB, will take off like the baguette one.
If we don't get started soon I have a feeling everyone will have baked their rye breads before we've even started and all we'll see is reposts. Might lose steam before we get it off the ground. I dare say we might have even had a community bake without realising it.
I just got another 10K bag of rye....So I'm good to go. How does one start a community bake? I seem to have started one without knowing it!
I took delivery of 25 pounds of rye berries in early Jan.
https://countrylifefoods.com/products/organic-rye-berries?variant=39401135505592
$1.00/pound plus delivery, for the 25 pound bag. Luckily, there is a local buyer's co-op, and we are on one of their truck delivery routes, so we get free delivery for group orders over $400.
With my cheapy 3-roller mill/grain-cracker (with 3 fineness settings), and my Vitamix, I'm all set to make various grinds of rye meal and cracked rye/schrot.
https://youtu.be/bgf6l5E-ZWE
At least he also calls it Old Milwaukee Rye. The recipe is similar to Ginsberg's in The Rye Baker.
I want to try making pumpernickel but not to happy about the baking. This one is more accessible. I'll take a look at The Rye Baker's version.
Check out Lutz's Pumperbrot recipe (here). He says similar in flavor to Pumpernickel without the long bake. But it does have a scald at 70 °C for 8–12 hours. That's maybe better? I could probably accomplish that with a slow cooker and a temperature controller.
I am a serious Lutz fanboy but I'm a bit skeptical of some of the formulas where he describes a "Malzbrühstück." In the recipe I did from the other thread, I mentioned I "mashed" for 6 hours at 154F, because his call for 75C for 8-12 hours doesn't make sense to me - that's well past the range where either amylase is active; they're denatured at around 76C. In other words, he's keeping the "mash" for hours, without any enzymatic activity.
That's IF he included active, enzymatic malt. In these couple of formulas, he's only using raw rye flour, without any malt included in this step. As far as I know, rye doesn't self-saccharify. It needs some sort of enzymatic activity to convert starch to sugar. The usual is some sort of actual, enzymatic malt component. It's odd because he actually does do that in other formulas.
So for both those reasons, I don't know why he indicates this type of stage is a "Malzbrühstück." I'm only going on brewing knowledge and could be completely wrong. Interesting subject.
Rye flour is actually quite high in enzyme including amylases. Especially whole rye. So many recipes use that, for example Borodinsky. So it does self-saccharify. And then certainly it needs a long time. If you include active malt the result will be sweeter of course, and the reaction will happen faster. But it's not necessary.
High amylase activity is why you need certain acidity in rye bread and you can't just make it with CY with no souring. During baking the enzymes activate and will destroy the crumb structure, it'll be gummy and sticky. But low pH inhibits amylases, so their activity is reduced before baking.
Well that is total news to me, and that is totally awesome! I love this kind of stuff. Thanks Ilya. One question I have, then - if it's amylases we're talking about, whether endogenous or from malt, etc. - is they do denature right around 76C. That's actually the temp brewers use to "fix" the saccharification, the design between alpha and beta amylase activity and resultant wort. What are your thoughts respecting his formula for rye flour, and 75C x 8-12 hours?
That I don't know, sounds too hot for me! Normally scalds are kept at 63-65°C (well, in bakeries they are huge volumes and they just cool down very slowly). Perhaps in the beginning there is some amylase activity here, and maybe there is some other purpose for such long and such hot incubation... But I don't know what it could be. Maybe there are some other enzymes in the flour that could do something else at these high temperatures?
Yeah, that's odd to me. Beta amylase optima is around 65C+/- and it quickly denatures hotter. I believe it's more heat-labile than alpha amylase, which has an optima range around 69C and quickly denatures past 72C, IIRC. There are no other amylases, again IIRC. Of course alpha will persist for awhile higher, but it quickly goes off past that high. I cannot see any saccharification at 75C, and especially don't get the 8-12 hour stage at this temp. Very curious, because I trust Lutz's work pretty strongly.
Or kept at? It could be a scald cools relatively quickly. I've seen recipes where boiling water is poured over a flour covered sponge and mixed. It still rises.
Yeah, he calls for keeping it at 75C.
Thank you, Paul.
Next question... could it be a typo? Might it be 65°C?
Ha! Good question. I'm going to try to contact the man.
King Arthur Baking has a Wesphalian Rye Bread that is "close" to Pumpernickel with only a 5 hour bake. As written, it is at 58% rye, but substituting in rye chops and rye flakes could boost it to 85% rye. It uses a small amount of yeast, but I believe that could also be substituted with rye sour culture.