September 12, 2021 - 4:26pm
Sandwich bread depressions
Trying to find out why I get surface depression 5-10 minutes after placing in the oven.
White table bread, 70% hydration (including egg), flour, sugar, powdered milk, salt, yeast, butter, water and egg.
Total weight before baking 962 grams.
I made 3 loaves as specified and three with Japanese Yudane method, taking 120g of water and 120g flour from recipe, add the boiling water to the flour, mix and let sit overnight before introducing to the remaining part of the recipe.
Two of the six loaves ended up with the depression, one with Yudane method and one without.
When bread collapses after it is put in the oven, that is almost always a sign of an overproofed loaf. With overproofing, the gluten is deteriorated and weakened so when the loaf hits the heat of the oven and the bubbles expand, the weakened gluten walls pop and collapse.Sometimes only part of the loaf collapses.
Were the 2 loaves with the depression perhaps baked after the others? Were they in a slightly warmer location for proofing-perhaps closer to a light bulb or nearer a heat source?
It would be helpful to see a picture of the crumb.
Otherwise a lovely looking loaf.
Do you have a photo of the crumb? This is really the only to know exactly what went wrong. The loaves might have over-proofed but again, there is no way to know for sure without a crumb shot.
Likely over fermented. When overfermented the gluten strands can no longer tolerate the stretching caused by the expanding gas and then break. As they break collapsing can occur. It would be helpful to see the crumb as well since there you should be able to see broken gluten strands under the crust.
Thank you for the comments.
They were baked in pairs with the first pair having one defect and the third pair having the second defect.
The first defective was the second of the pair to be mixed, kneaded and proofed. The last defective was the first to be mixed etc..
When I take one out of the freezer I will take a pick of the crump in the area of depression.
Took a picture of once slice from depressed area and one of a slice from non depressed area of same loaf.
I don’t see broken gluten strands, however, I also don’t see signs of under fermentation. I think the depression was still caused by over fermentation which can lead to collapse of the top crust.
This is not what I expected to see. I expected to see bigger broken bubbles with an overproofed dough. I'm wondering if this is a slightly UNDERproofed dough with shaping issues. The bulk fermentation looks good, as evidenced by the even central crumb that extends to most edges. Both slices exhibit a much closer crumb at the top, leading me to believe that the dough was just a touch underproofed at the end. So could the depression be caused by a tightness across that area so it never rose in that area? Did the rest of the loaf oven-spring around that area so that it is not a rise & fall but an area that didn't rise due to the tightness of the dough?
Curious to hear other comments.
I actually get very little oven spring. First rise is until doubled. Second rise time in pan varies with temp. When I first put the dough in the pan it will cover the pan to a depth of about 1.25 inches (pan is 12" long, 4.5" wide) and I let it rise until it's about 4.25 inches deep, a little over tripled. When baked, and not having a depression, height runs about 4.5 to 5" high.
As for "tightness" that would cause the depression, I don't believe so as I DO experience that situation sometimes, but it is evident during the second rise when there is a band that doesn't rise uniformly with the rest of the loaf.
For me, when I compare the crumb with a slice from a non depressed loaf, it appears the non depressed slice has a bit more even crumb.
I used to get a LOT of oven spring, but too often ended up with whole loaf collapsed. I ended up taking just 90% of each ingredient to make the loaf and this is what I've ended up with. I have NO idea why so little spring now. Definitely better but still problematic.
I also form a loaf different than most. I've always had a problem with the forming as I trap air when folding the dough to get the triangle. What I do now is to let the first rise occur in the stand mixing bowl until doubled and then I put it back on the stand with the hook and turn on. This will remove all air but then I dump out onto silicone sheet to just stretch into length I need and have NO folds to trap air. I have to let the dough relax though before placing it in the pan, usually about 10-15 min. I started doing this about 4 months before my current problem happened.
The yudane method.
How smooth was the scald after mixing boiled water with flour? How smoothly was it incorporated into the dough. I was also surprised to see the crumb shots.
I believe, perhaps the same is happening as with Tangzhong, a little helps, too much doesnt and reverses the effect. Perhaps less is more. What happens if the yudane is made with less flour? What is the range or % of flour used for the scald? Any specific temps?
Looks like the major difference is Tangzhong is 5-10% of recipe flour with 1/5 ratio flour to water boiled together.
Yudane is 20% of recipe flour with 1/1 ratio flour to water, flour is scalded as boiled water is poured over flour.
We know that adding boiling water to flour will drop the temperature but still result in gelatinized flour.
1). How much % recipe flour was scalded?
I've come across many different ratios for the mix in all the recipes I've found over the last couple of years, some high portion of flour and various amounts of water up to the equal level. I've tried many different ways and have settled on the 120g/120g for about a Kilo of dough, sometimes going to 150g/150g.
I even tried a double 200g one time but found it too hard to mix the remaining ingredients due to not having much liquid left to add. Also, I didn't see any difference in the softness than I see with the 150g. At the moment I'm not sure that I see a difference between 120 and150 so I'll do a few more 150's until I am sure.
A couple of years ago I first tried the Tangzhong method but I don't have the patience to be bothered with that one so I went back to the yudane.
Not sure what you mean by how smooth the scald is. I just mix it until all the flour is hydrated and then cover and let sit overnight. It's not real smooth like the dough gets when I'm done kneading it in the mixer.
After I put the dry ingredients into the mixing bowl I make a bit of a well and dump the youdane into that depression and then cover it with the dry ingredients, pressing down to spread it out as much as possible. Then I use a pizza cutter to cut vertically and horizontally and then in between to particalize the youdane and the dry just adheres to all cuts so that when I put everything on the stand mixer, it's just the same as not using the youdane method.
The original instructions were to break apart in small pieces by hand but I don't see much sense in that when the pizza cutter works so much faster and easier.
I use it to get a softer loaf that doesn't go stale so fast but one of my daughters think it doesn't taste as good. For me and the other 4 kids, we don't notice a difference other than softer.
Not always good for the toaster though. The bread tries to sag in the slot before it toasts enough to firm up, sort of like a vertical tilde. (~)
Probably wouldn't be as much of a problem if I sliced it a bit thicker but I like thin sliced bread for sandwiches. Out of that 12" loaf I get 27 slices counting the crust ends.
In the recipe?
My basic recipe without doing the Youdane is 529g flour and 365g water but when I use the Yudane, I pull 120 to 150g out of each the flour and water for that and then the remaining weight of flour and water is used in the final dough mix along with an egg (part of the water weight), salt, yeast, butter, sugar and powdered milk.
with 100g flour and see what happens. That would be the 20% of the recipe flour. (Actually 19% but easier to remember) :)
Thank you, I have done 100. I've also done all 50g, 60g 70g.......up to 150g.
I've also done various mixes at each level of less flour than water and a few with more flour than water. More flour than water is very hard to make the youdane.
slumping during the bake?
No, just two of the six loaves. I did 3 sets of two loafs with one loaf youdane and one without in each pair. The youdane loaf in the first pair depressed, neither of the second pair did, and the non youdane loaf depressed in the third pair.
This is pretty well typical of what has been happening for the last few months.
Also, with little oven spring, does that also indicate overproofing?
I think you need to reduce the fermentation a bit, not a ton. I don’t see this as underproofed at all. In underproofed loaves you will see very tight crumb, tunnels through the loaf and typically very big ovenspring. Overproofed loaves you don’t get good oven spring and often the center of the loaf will collapse. The collapse occurs because the damaged gluten strands aren’t able to withstand the increasing pressure of the expanding gases as the dough bakes. As a result the gases are lost to the oven so the alveoli collapse.
I don’t think you’ve greatly overproofed, just cut back a bit. You have given the clue that they are overproofed, they lack oven spring.
I'm guessing that when I cut to 90% of the recipe but still let the second rise go to the same height, I'm forcing the proofing to it's limit so sometimes it goes a bit too much.
Maybe I'll add back to the recipe maybe 5% rather than put it in the oven before it gets to the height I want. More dough, more height without overproofing?
Yes if you have reduce the sough weight too much yet allow it to rise to a predetermined height based on a fully proofed larger sough then yes, it is more likely to be overproofed. Gluten too weak to hold back expanding gas and like a broken balloon it will collapse.
Your explanation of how you shape was very enlightening as to why the crumb appears as it does. The slices pictured has 3 horizontal layers- a closely crumbed bottom, a more expanded middle and a closely crumbed top layer (on both sections). The similar appearance of both slices is part of what threw my assessment off the mark. If there was overproof, the depressed section should look quite different with larger, more irregularly shaped bubbles. I believe the shaping technique used is at the heart of this issue and suggest a simple experiment. I do believe that if you rolled your dough and created what some people call a "gluten cloak" that you may have a more consistent shape to the top of the loaf. It might be an interesting experiment to see if that made a difference.
HERE is a link to a list of Mark Sinclair videos. He used to be a frequent contributor here on TFL but started his own bakery (interesting story prob in the videos) and life got too busy. Every time I watch his vids, I have learned something new but,really, he is where I earned shaping. Give it a go and enjoy. THey are all short and pleasant.
BTW, I love the shiny brown crust on your loaf. Looks delicious!
Thanks for all the replies.
I think most of the credit for the brown crust is due to the butter and egg in the recipe. For the butter, I don't soften it at all, I just take unsalted butter out of the fridge and grate it with a cheese grater until I have the specific number of grams needed.
There also was some extra browning when I made up inserts to put in the sides of the pan so I don't get a ridge from the top of the pan.
As I use my meat slicer (with a little jig to aid it) to cut the loaves, it was problematic to have a varying lip to rest against the slide tray so now no lip and even slicing.
Rolling and folding to form the loaf is what I've done in the past for many years and NEVER could I get a loaf without holes in it. Even doing it slow somehow I still trap air in the roll/fold at some point. In watching his videos, I shudder at how many holes I'd have again doing it that way. As I hate holes in the bread much more than I hate having some loaves have the depression, I'm not tempted to go back to those ways again.
Now for my Ciabatta buns, I don't care if they have holes or not. Obviously with they hydration they are going to be fairly large, but small would work for me also. What I'm after is the "chewy" and I guess the flavour, even though there is little to the ingredients.
Very timely too, as I had a loaf in progress and was about to end bulk and shape. Shaping has been a headache for me, but for some reason his method just clicked.
I do not like "shoulders" on my loaves,either. I would love to see a pic of the inserts you made. What did you make them out of?
Not sure how they install furnace systems where you are, but here, the furnace air is directed through ductwork and the return air actually is fed through the space between joists. I had a piece of sheeting used for the cold air ducts where they staple it across the joists to allow for the return air to go through. It's about 16"by 30".
I first made a template to fit the taper of the pans and then marked it out on the metal. I used a large paper cutter to sheer the metal exactly on the lines.
I just took a picture of one of the inserts, (I have four for the two pans) but I can't show it in the pans right now as I'm using them to make my emulsified luncheon meat and they are in the "smoke" stage right now. Using the same pan means the meat slices will be the same as a slice of bread.
I used the same metal to make the outer casing for bread stones that now fit the whole shelf of the oven. I put tiles inside the metal shell so my Ciabbata buns get a better rise.
Picture of the inserts in the two breadpans.