Yet Another First Clear Sub?
Making Borodinsky provided by Rus Brot (thanks, Ilya - subscribed). Have no first clear on hand, but would like to give it a shot.
In Stanley Ginserg's book, for a sub he calls for either a higher-protein flour in the range of 13.5% - 14.5%, or a bread flour with lower overall protein and the addition of 9 grams vital wheat gluten to 260 g bread flour (I am presuming my KA BF at 12.7%) or 130 g AP.
The strongest I have is the KA BF at 12.7%, so by Stanley's guidelines, can't use that as a high-gluten flour. So I plan on adding VWG at 9 g/260 g flour.
However, since first clear is what's left over typically from roller milling, it is obviously composed highly of bran, etc.
I'd thought of parsing this VWG-Enriched flour with 25% of either ka WW, or middlings (#30 sieves) from some milling I did awhile back.
It's not ideal, but it's what I have to work with right now. Thoughts?
Secondly, this will inrease absorption. How much more % water should I add - is this known?
Borodinsky is not made with first clear, Russian second grade flour is a completely different beast. It's not even a single flour, as it was milled differently in different time periods, but in either case it was not a strong flour. Take a regular APF, add 25-50% of WW and you are going to be fine. In fact, I imagine that if you make two side by side, one all APF, one all WW, you will be hard pressed to tell them apart.
Awesome. Thanks, suave. Ilya mentions Russian second and because it's not available here, I'm guessing, some of an extra strong BF with ww. (I note Rus Brot also calls for "Extra Strong" along with the whole rye in the final dough). I'd love some further input from Ilya here. I know zero, of course.
I did just try to get some info using a translator. Is this what we're talking about (emphasis mine):
?
So, the wheat flour with the final rye isn't particularly strong, then? Does this mean a certain lack of lift, etc., in the final dough is to be expected and is within style?
Secondly, if there's not an appreciable difference between a blend of BF and WW, compared to WW - man, I'd like WW alone, just more character. Yes?
Yes, it's off-white, but you need to understand a couple of things. First, like the rest of Europe, Russians calculate ash for dry weight, so their 1.25% is something like US 1.10%, if I am doing my math right. Second, they measure gluten by its wet weight, and those 25% translate to about 9% by regular count. So, what you get in practice is rather dark, and very weak flour with noticeable earthy taste.
As far as using APF vs WW, I don't think it matters - there's rye, ample amount of coriander, and 10% combined sugar/molasses. You can hide almost anything under that. Ultimately, that choice of flour was originally made because it did not really matter which one to use and 2nd grade was abundant, cheap, and difficult to utilize in recipes where it would have been more obvious.
OK thanks. I know Europe goes by ash, and it's dry weight, but if Russian No. 2 is ash 1.25%, wouldn't it be US 1.45 (1.25/.86). as we go by 14% basis for wheat flour?
Didn't know that about the wet gluten thing, thanks. Is that Europe in general, or only in Russia?
So, a weak flour with decent ash content - close enough to French T150, might as well go with WW. WW would do - is that about right?
No, adding water would dilute ash content and make it lower, so it's 1.25x.86. I think wet gluten is a purely Russian thing, the EU uses dry content and 0% moisture, same as with ash.
WW - sure, if you want to, no crime in that at all.
Edit: Sorry, my mistake. We divide ours by .86 to get theirs (I had the dry basis logic screwed up). So 1.25 Russian II = 1.25*.86=1.10 roughly. Got it.
Edit II: Lol, I hadn't fully your post above, which is exactly what I just wrote in the edit. Um, yeah, sorry. I got it now.
Think about it, the percentage of ash is the same, but the material that you start with here is not 100% flour, it's 86% dry flour and 14% moisture, so effectively you are measuring ash content in 86 grams of flour whereas European method uses full 100. Therefore you will see less ash, not more.
Yeah, sorry suave, I screwed up. See edit above.
If you have any questions re: his bread/recipe. Post your comment/question under the video or on his blog; he'll respond in English.
Yippee
Thanks Yippee, great. Done.
In the FAQ on his website he says to get 2nd grade wheat flour, mix whole wheat and bread/AP flour (top grade) at 2:3 ratio: http://brotgost.blogspot.com/p/faq.html (in Russian, sorry!)
I'd say indeed in this context, as suggested above, it's not critical, I think I mixed 1:2 instead... Not sure, and I think I didn't write it down.
Are you following the recipe that I shared? Some of the recipes have only whole rye flour, btw.
And do you actually have red rye malt for the scald?
OK, thanks, Ilya. Yes, I'm following his recipe exactly with the exception of subbing in for Russian II and I have to make only an approximation of red rye malt by roasting it, etc., by Ginsberg's method in his book.
Don't be sorry about the Russian! I wish I knew it! (I started.....life intruded. I can say a few things well - accents work for me - but that's it. It gets me drowning in a Russian reply...lol.
please see here, which I followed to make mine.
Yippee
Fantastic - thanks Yippee!
Bummer - i can't get anything locally but rye base malt, not crystal malt.
Yikes! Just watched and read through....we make both a fermented and a crystal malt out of the base grain. Wish I could just buy it!!!
Indeed, it's a tricky thing to make! I got it off ebay. There is no real substitute, very special kind of malt... It'll be a tasty bread anyway though!
SCORE! We have a local Russian store and I very bravely asked them if they have Солод красный ржаной - she said, yes, they do. And said I sounded pretty good, lol.
I didn't ask - but I'm hopeful of finding Russian 2nd Grade as well!
Congrats, well done! Red rye malt is the only really tricky ingredient to source that has no replacement. Everything else is not that difficult to find or to substitute with no problems.
Did you say you started a bread yesterday already anyway, btw? How did it go?
In case you are curious, here is milled red rye malt in the jar next to crystal rye malt berries, for comparison.
Wow. Thanks - that shows there's really no sub! Ebay - can I buy it for here (U.S.)?
I don't know how far afield you want to go, but Farmhouse Brewing in Janesville shows Fawcett crystal rye malt. I was there a couple weeks ago and I think I saw it in stock. I had already received some from Ginsberg's New York Bakers so I wasn't looking for it. But I did get some chocolate rye malt there and several other malts.
Thanks - see below. It's a pretty deeply caramelized red rye, but there's no fermentation. I'm sure it rocks, but I really want to stick to his recipe as closely as I can.
Forgot to add, I'm predisposed to add in light molasses for the sugar and malt extract (unless the malt extract is dry, as opposed to evaporated liquid extract to make a syrup. Is it dry malt extract? If so, I have some I use for lab purposes). Any issue? I don;t know what the equivalent molasses would be to dry sugar. Do you know?
but now, completely follow his recipe to get a feel for the original recipe. This is what I would do.
Yippee
You mean - use malt extract and sugar (and real red rye malt). Yes?
Just found New York Baker sells red rye malt, made by Fawcett in UK, good company. Anyone know this product?
Edit: Just spoke with Stanley Ginsberg himself. He indicates the red rye malt they sell is not fermented, so the souring is missing. Ilya - was that a U.S. ebay, or Russian - can I buy it?
Fawcett's crystal malt is what I have, and was using before I got the real red rye malt. See picture above for the difference!
It was UK eBay, I'm sure it's available in the US too...
Score! Thanks Ilya!
Nice! I don't know which ones are better than others though, so you'll have to hope you get a good one.
Rus in a recent video explains how to check quality by tasting - need to be a little sweet, a little sour, and only a little bitter - but not very bitter, in which case it's bad. I'll check mine, actually...
(I guess mine is OK from having a little taste!)
Thanks Ilya. Looking forward to it.
Can I get an amen?
! $2.99/300g. I'm so stoked.
And just so I know what I'm trying to bake (might be nice)....
That is Munich liquid malt extract. Munich may not be quite as dark but I think it will be nice - Munich malt lends melanoidins and nice, mellow "maltiness" without being cloying. Think of a good S.German dunkel. Seems to me to marry well with bread, and with the refined sugar, I hope it will be close. Mostly, so stoked to find the red red malt locally.
They did not have second grade flour, only the white flour - would it be first grade? Did I see "superior grade" somewhere? So I'll have to go with the 2:3 WW:BF, but I'm still pretty lucky, I'd say. I have 1000g of more red rye malt coming from the Russian Federation via ebay (thank you, Ilya) so I should set not only with Russian ryes, but Baltic ryes as well. May the Estonian gods bless this home...
Nice-nice, excellent! Lucky you!
Do you have a picture of the white flour? It should say whether it's 1st grade or "superior" (both would be white) or idk how they translate it into English. For bread normally you'd use 1st grade I think.
Taste the commercial Borodinky, but don't expect the same result from home-made bread: expect better! :) Assuming you succeed and yours is better, you can use the commercial one to make kvass - a bread drink. With you brewing experience you'll love the process and the ideas: it's even more like liquid bread than beer.
I am not sure about Estonian specifically, but FYI Rus Brot also has some Baltic recipes, some of them ridiculously complicated.
I don't have a pic of the bread but it was superior, I believe. They don't carry the 2nd, which makes sense - so few use it, I imagine. Really sweet young woman, so happy to know it's there and this rye malt is commonly available. Funny you mention kvass, lol - when I saw the Borodinsky and headed to get it, she asked if I was making kvass! Hmm.....
Thanks on the cite re Rus Brot and the Baltic breads - the Riga rye in the Ginsberg book looks so perfect and beautiful. Like yours, actually, man. Quite an inspiration. An entire other world, can't wait.
Amen!
What is the name of the store? And where is it?
Thanks!
I don't have the name but just a little, non-descript store literally tucked in between a hair salon and a real estate office. My wife's been going for years - smoked fish and other goodies - but this particular europhile is now a regular.
I'm in Madison, WI.
might carry red rye malt, as suggested here.
Yes, I recommend not to change Rus's recipe to get the best results, unless you can't find the ingredients.
Yippee
Sorry, couple final questions guys - the malt extract - is this dry, or the syrup? The sugar is simple cane or beet sugar, right?
Malt extract is liquid, I guess it's the same as syrup? Not diastatic or anything.
This would be refined sugar, yes.
Perfect. Through brewing supply places you can buy liquid (it's merely condensed wort) or dry extract. I used dry to make up plates or for propagation purposes and haven't used the liquid in 40 years, since I mashed my own crushed grains. Thank you so much.
Another source for malt syrup is Eden barley malt syrup. It is only barley malt extracted with water and concentrated. I got some from Breadtopia and I suspect natural food stores would also sell it.
At the homebrew store, which malt extract would you buy? There are quite a few.
Thanks, got some!
Thanks alcophile. Got some eden coming and bought some dry dark DME - may evaporate to right sugar level, but also bought some LME unhopped munich malt. See next.
Russian books state unequivovally that molasses are the preferred syrup for all rye breads.
There is a lot of confusion regarding this, even in Russian, but it is exacerbated by translation. Russian мальтозная патока is different from molasses, and the better substitute is malt syrup: the preparation process of these products is completely different. Мальтозная патока is made by hydrolysis of (corn) starch using diastatic barley malt, similarly to malt extract, while molasses are a by-product of sugar production.
I don't know if the differences are that significant in the end product. But the flavour of malt extract is completely different and much more neutral than black treacle that I have (i.e. molasses, BrE vs AmE).
What is the source there?
Here is the relevant paragraph from "350 varieties of breads and baked goods" by Plotnikov and Kolesnikov, a foundational book from 1940, from which the recipe in question here was taken:
For non-Russian speakers, it says there are two kinds of "molasses" - патока/patoka - used in bread baking: light or dark. The former (aka "glucose patoka") is made by hydrolysis of pure starch (potato or corn) using acid, and is colourless. The latter ("maltose patoka") is made as I said above, by hydrolysis using malt - but the product used to make it is not pure starch, but some kind of starchy substance.
Hydration of both of them is around 19-22%, sugar content in the light patoka" is 42-60%, the dark patoka - above 65%.
They improve the look and taste of bread, and the general quality of the product.
There is also a description of honey, but it's only used for "pryaniki" - a Russian product similar to ginger bread, delicious, but it's not really bread.
I think it actually actually says "They improve the look and taste of wheat bread..." but one thing is certain - early on they weren't too keen on being specific in their descriptions.
You are right about the wheat correction, but anyway these are the only two options mentioned in the book, they didn't use by-products of sugar production... Maybe it changed in later years, but then again, everyone thinks bread got worse with time in USSR🤷♂️ I can't report on that, too young.
I can say that initially I was also confused about that and used black treacle, and it's flavour is way too strong. Maybe lighter versions of molasses work better.
If it was "black treacle," that is actually closest to what's referred to in the U.S. as blackstrap molasses - so that's going to be intense, with bitterness to watch for. For a beer example - inimitable - try Theakston's Old Peculier. It also refers to a golden syrup. Both involve invert to an extent.
Indeed it is intense! That's why I thought perhaps some lighter molasses would work fine, but black treacle was too strong and bitter.
Ever try Lyle's golden syrup?
No, but I had this idea too recently, since golden syrup is available in any supermarket here, unlike malt extract. From what I understand, golden syrup is different though - hydrolized sugar, not hydrolized starch, so it won't have any larger molecules... But maybe those are not important, I don't know.
It seems loose terminology can screw stuff up. As I understand it, "treacle" in British usage can be either "black treacle," which corresponds to our blackstrap molasses more or less; it can also refer to "golden syrup," or "light treacle." Yet the Lyle's refers to their black treacle as being made from molasses, and the golden syrup tin as coming from "partially inverted refiner's sugar."
I kept it simple in brewing by making my own invert sugars in rough correspondence to No.s 1-4.
And in terms of Rus Brot's recipe. I'm, er, totally lost as to "malt extract," or what is "normally" used in the making of Borodinsky (Russian dark breads generally)?
Again, I need to re-read again more closely.
By the way, the "light patoka" sounds identical to glucose syrup, aka in most cases corn syrup! I guess nowadays there are infinite varieties of that with different degree of hydrolysis, and often inverted, also to a different degree. I am not sure which would be the best match, but probably as long as the sugar content is matched, it'll work very well. Perhaps even dark high-maltose corn syrup would fit the bill for "maltose patoka"? Maybe someone knows more about that?
Just discovered on Wikipedia that glucose syrup was first made in Russia in 1811 by Kirchhof! Had no idea.
Just keeping track. We are talking about the "malt extract" in the recipe, yes?
Indeed. Malt extract is definitely a great sub, but we are discussing other alternatives.
Sorry, what I mean Ilya is that Rus Brot's recipe says "malt extract," and when I asked him on it he said, like you, he means liquid malt extract. So - trying not to sub anything. I'm just trying to keep straight what we are actually talking about. Lost in the Russian exegesis! - are we deciding what "syrup" means in Russian practice?
In general, there has been a huge variety of recipes using different sweeteners historically. For this particular recipe most authentic/original ingredient would be патока. I assume it would be the maltose/dark variety, but it's actually not specified in the recipe which of the two. Since I only started baking in the UK, I've never laid my hands on it: originally I was also confused and thought black treacle would be the replacement, but figured it out thanks to Rus Brot's info, that malt extract is the right substitute. Here is what the product looks like: https://www.pudov.ru/140815-patoka-maltoznaya-_s_pudovnne_-700-g
If you want an overview of many historical recipes of Borodinksy, including different sweeteners that have been used, here is an interesting blog post (in Russian): https://mariana-aga.livejournal.com/272344.html
Awesome. Thanks, Ilya. Mariana - our mariana?
It's possible to simply make dark wort with heavier roasted crystal malts, and reduce these down to a syrup. Or, just buy dark malt syrups. These would work in Rus Brot's 1940?
I don't know if it's our mariana! I hope so :)
I guess that would work! I just use whatever malt syrup I can get easily, but a darker option would probably be better. With your brewing expertise you can probably guess better than me :) As I posted earlier, all they say is it should be a thick syrup with dark colour made enzymatically from starchy products, with around 20% water and at least 65% sugar.
Thank you btw on the parameters, that helps guide things.
Please post the procedure if you make it yourself! I guess it would be similar to making the rice syrup like I've seen a Korean recipe, just keeping at around 65°C with diastatic malt until desired hydrolysis level, and then boiling down?
Ilya, I had to resort to a page translator but in the ingredients listed, it says corn, barley malt and water. Is it possible this is a blend of corn syrup and barley malt syrup?
It's probably corn hydrolyzed using barley malt.
Ah OK. Thanks.
Agree so much. I love molasses, including in baking. But even a little bit really corrupts a Borodinsky! The delicate flowery flavors of the malt and coriander do not mix with the bitter edge of molasses. Malt syrup works for мальтозная патока. Honey in a smaller quantity mixed with water is my preferred substitute. Not the same but it compliments.
I heard back from Rus Brot:
First Clear is our closest. In the absence of First Clear (KA offers it), like Ilya said, Rus Brot recommends a WW:(High-Gluten or equivalent BF) of 2:3, so that's what I'm going with.
I'm all set. I want to thank everyone for your help.
Ah, I just remembered, I wanted to check at some point: what is the typical ash content of "high extraction" flour? In principle it's also something in between white and whole meal and should be available in the US (I've seen Maurizio use it in recipes on theperfectloaf.com), but I have no idea how it actually compares to Russian second grade.
Ilya, Central Milling offers a "T85" which they describe as "High Extraction," at 0.85% ash. I have tried to parse this with my own blend of BF and WW to get a comparable ash (relying on T80 as a reliable "rustic" flour) but of course that's not at all the same. Isn't it closer to compare Russian second grade to a T110, or thereabouts?
Yeah sounds like high extraction is still too refined! Probably when it's a small proportion of flour like in Borodinsky it would work just fine though.
Do you have experience with first clear?
So - if I've understood correctly, in lieu of Russian 2nd grade Rus Brot recommends 2:3 WW:strong flour (first clear or high-gluten) - right?
No experience, since there are no grades of flour in the UK.
Yes, mix WW:bread/AP flour 2:3, to match the ash content.
OK. Thanks, llya.
More of a general question on first clear (well white rye and vital wheat gluten as well). Even in his positive back-cover blurb in praise of Stanley Ginsberg's book, Jeffrey Hamelman says they disagree on the former's use of first clear, and VWG as well. And in his book, J. Hamelman shows he's not a fan of white rye flour ("...a bland and insipid bread.")
I don't know anything about FC so can't speak to it. Ginsberg's book has a lot of first clear, white rye and hi-gluten flour (parsed if needs be with vital wheat gluten). Can anyone speak to the basis for Hamelman's issues with these flours? If I know the rationale I can come to make informed choices, eventually.
Thanks,
Paul
I imagine that when he wrote that, Mr. Hamelman had no idea about all the things that can be done with white rye. This is not a criticism - I don't think there was a single baker in the US who did.
Thank you suave. That makes perfect sense.
Interestingly this morning I came across an old thread and saw your comments on whole v. medium rye, and realize I've been plodding along using whole rye everywhere, because they mill it locally and it's all I could get without mail order. I realize that's a mistake. I want to get in some light and medium flour, as well as coarse meal (the Baker's authority rye meal seems pretty fine).
I have since come to believe that that Pillsbury flour may have been not a medium rye after all, but a finer grind of whole rye.
I am lucky, because both white and medium rye are fairly easy to find where I live.
Our local Woodman's started selling King Arthur Organic Medium Rye recently. And because it's Woodman's, it was cheaper than KA list price.
Ash content 0.85 ± 0.05%, 72% extraction. Using Ginsberg's rye classification table, this might be closer to light rye than medium rye. I haven't opened my bag yet so I can't confirm color or performance.
I ordered the New York Bakers Pumpernickel FlourPantry to get all the grades of Bay State Milling rye meal. The fine isn't too fine and the coarse rye meal seems just barely milled.
Yeah, but I'd rather they snuck some Belgian Red down here.
Are you alluding to New Glarus' Belgian Red Ale? That is one delicious brew! I smuggle some through the Cheddar Curtain every now and then.
Lol. Contraband.
I love it too. Not really a true lambic, but who cares. Delicious.
Not contraband if you are getting it for yourself, but a bar in Minnesota was raided for trying to sell Spotted Cow.
https://www.minnpost.com/business/2016/02/wait-why-cant-you-sell-spotted-cow-beer-minnesota/
I had read a couple of years ago that Spotted Cow was the best selling beer in Wisconsin. Spotted Cow is pretty good, but I was devastated when Solstice was discontinued. It may have been the best domestic hefeweizen.
At the risk of being a beer a$$...., I'm not too crazy about the company's offerings generally. Sweet, good people and true to their craft - but safe. No disrespect intended. At a dinner with the late Michael Jackson (no, not him) in London at the White Horse, Parson's Green, I was gushing about British brewing and tradition and ... he jumped in to insist "you lot [American Brewers] have it," meaning, we were untrammeled by that very tradition and were trying bold things.
Now, I disagree. Seems we Americans are after blowing socks off of judges with palate fatigue at the end of the day at competitions (an issue with California, not Willamette Valley OR, winemaking generally, I'd say) and racing to see how much more hoppy we can make IPA's, and I believe balance is the true brewer's gift, genius in the simplest of beers, well, I appreciate what he was saying. (Another story. He knew my wife's uncle who ran the Tartu Olutehas under the late and early-post soviet era, and showed us a pic at dinner...talk about a mind blower. Michael wrote about him in one of his beautiful big-format books, can't recall which...anyway). Well....
Bring on that Big Cherry Red and let's have a laugh.
I stopped buying much New Glarus beer a number of years ago. I found that many of the beers seemed to drift down in quality. Some of their older offerings like Edel Pils, Zwickel, Copper Kettle, and Staghorn I thought were good beers. But either my palate changed or the beers declined. There were also some interesting beers like Berliner Weisse, Alt, and Smoke on the Porter that never came back. The Belgian Red does seem to have maintained quality.
I agree with your assessment of many American craft brewers trying to out hop the other guy. There are so many double and imperial IPAs—everything's got to be BIG. And there are very few brewers that know how to make a good lager or pilsner (Great Lakes' Dortmunder Gold and Victory's Prima Pils being exceptions).
Oh my god!!! What ever happened to "relax don't worry, have a homebrew?"
Another time but I worked for Goose Island. The ridiculous strategies they employ to compete would make you.....
want another beer.
Oh yeah? Were you there during the Laffler times? Modern Goose Island though, I absolutely love Sofie and I will buy 312 when Woodmans has it for 2.50 for a 4-pack but other than that I ignore them. Wit and kolsch are my summer beers, Okto in the fall, and bocks and dunkels during the winter, and Goose Island does none of it, or none of it well. As far New Glarus goes, to me their perfect beer is Two Women.
I don't know Laffler - long before, methinks. I was there when it was still owned by John Hall, and his son. At one point I was the National Distribution Manager and saw the writing on the wall when they kept pushing further and further abroad (i.e., states far afield), went into biz with Chicago Beverage and sank million plus to this god-awful Wizard of Odd Machine, Centrex if my memory serves, as CB made it part of the deal to manufacture Hooch. One line, carbon-filtered "beer" to strip it absolutely of all character (but, keeping it legal as a "malt beverage"), another, straight EtOH, another, all the flavor crap and voila, Hooch.
There were a ton of gifted brewers there, then, now a kind of diaspora - Jim Cibak of Revolution (Jim crafted the finest barleywine I've ever had - generally not a fan at all, way too cloying - Jim finessed a masterpiece with Munich malts, one of the reasons I started reasonably employing them more myself), Matt Brynildson, hop chemist genius, now, Caifornia brewing god (Firestone Walker), Jonathan Cutler of Piece, Phin DeMink, owner and founder of the successful NY brewing company Southern Tier. All those guys were there and it was all their genius, no one else's, putting out great beer. It's through this time I found my voice in a blend of British and American hopping and methods (I don't brew any longer, but I became solidly Brit over time. Like, ridiculously traditional, including geeking up the notion of the Northern Yorkshire Square system - to middling results. Still fascinated by this region's ales).
It was sold to Budweiser then SAB, I believe, and on and on. They insist no, but by my palate they grew measurably more and more insipid, especially the IPA (my fave of the "line" ales - never a fan of the signature Honker's - the use of roasted malts in a pale is very iffy for my palate. Crystal, sure. Roasted, no. Porters and stouts, please).
I'd say the same for the Belgians, which I always felt were too precious anyway in their 4-bottle casing. But they were good at one time. Again, the guys above. I haven't tasted one of them in years.
Edit: Sofie was also a fave of mine, though haven't had it in a long time. The whole co. sort of left a sour taste in my mouth but to John's credit - he was a vanguard, when it mattered. Love kolsch too, esp. summer. Like wit but it needs to be skilllfully done for me. Too many ferment hot and let loose the high-carbon chain alcohols and esters, etc. Shows the same thing to me as dumping a million pounds of hops in an IPA. Clarity - that's it for me. Kolsch - let me tell you the heart attacks managing two main yeasts in the same brewery!
Bocks - let me tell you sometime of my Hellundback Bock. A hellish night at -10F outside, doing a traditional German decoction when I couldn't get a clear recirc, vorlauf (and I was insane for crystal recirc). Finally I figured out the lauter screen had become dislodged, and I had to salvage the brew on the fly. My wife named it. One of the best Germans I ever made. Norse harpies.
Well, I guess I told the gist, lol
Same here, every now and then I cross over and pick up a couple of packs.
Metcalfe's has it for $10/3 lbs, which seemed very reasonable, considering shipping.
The NYB milling - are you saying you'd hoped for a finer fine, and a coarser coarse, or you're pleased with them?
I have 20 lbs now of Baker's Authority rye meal, it it seems pretty fine to me. I have to find the post where Mariana gives out some pumpernickels that are more coarse.
The Bay State Milling coarse rye meal from NY Bakers is just barely milled—lots of nearly whole berries. I thought it was too coarse but then I found pictures of coarse rye meal from a German mill that looked nearly identical. The fine and medium are true to description.
I have posed this question too about first clear flour without much success. Is there a blend to approximate first clear flour? King Arthur and Bakers Authority sell it, but I really don't need any additional flour that I will only use in small amounts. I'm surprised that Ginsberg doesn't sell it through New York Bakers. I would have bought some when I ordered rye supplies.
I get that Hamelman is a purist, but maybe some of us don't have a problem with small amounts of vital wheat gluten. Bread baking is my hobby, not my livelihood.
Thanks!
I actually asked KA about their first clear ash content, and they said it was .80+/- .03. I read Central Millings's version is their Type 110, which is 1.10, so....unclear on first clear.
I'll bet KA's first clear is either Ardent Mills Powerful or Bay State Milling Boxer flour. Bakers Authority sells 5 lb. bags of first clear for $8.20. The spec sheet shows Boxer at 0.76 ± 0.04 ash. Ardent Mills lists Powerful at 0.80 ash.Breadtopia has Select Bread Flour that is 14% protein and is bolted. Ash content not listed but I've been meaning to ask what the spec is. Could be similar to first clear.
I've thought about blending some WW or high extraction WW with high gluten flour, but I don't know if it's that critical.
Excellent, thanks alcophile. If you hear from Breadtopia that would be interesting. I think I might be trying to get a single flour that matches up with the Russian 2nd grade, and that would be an ash at 1.10, as suave corrected me on. This, instead of the 2:3 ww:BF ratio, so my bad. Seems your ash content is pretty standard, thanks for the info.
I thought suave's comments on the Russian II being a different process was really interesting, would love to know it.
FWIW, I asked Central about their 110 in relation to first clear, this was their response:
I wonder if you guys familiar with the Russian flours - any thoughts on this T110 by itself as a sub (no WW:BF)?
I think it would be just fine!
You can simulate its ash content by blending, and strength by WVGing, but not the taste. However, in practice it probably does not matter, because in most instances you probably won't be able to taste and the rye (and caraway). One thing I'd like to note, however, is that first clear is a fairly light-colored flour, and blending will probably produce a darker mix. Here's what a loaf made out of first clear looks like:
Thanks suave. That is absolutely stunning. That is all first clear?
Did you mean - it's pretty much irrelevant anyway, because the rye and the caraway (and coriander?) will drive the flavor anyway? And per your comment earlier, Russian Second Grade is made in an entire other process - you can't just plug in ash and protein and hope to get a "voila," yes - this is what you mean?
EDIT: Sorry suave, lot to re-read.
Thanks again.
I'm probably sweating bullets needlessly. Wouldn't be the first time.
FWIW, further from Central Milling (as to using the 110, having given him the Russian 2nd specs):
Wheat Flour
Second Grade
Moisture: 14.00% max.
Ash content: 1.25% max.
Wet gluten content: 28.00% min.
Protein: 14.00% min.
Falling number: 240.00
Oh, I can tell you exactly what hits the nail on the head - a mixture of 50% of AFP and 50% WW pastry flour behaves exactly like modern 2nd grade flour. It does not taste the same but that does not matter much for the interesting breads that can be made out of it. But that's not the whole story.
This is where nebulous Russian flour specs come into play. You see, there are multiple ways to arrive at the numbers that you cite. For example, one of the books I use lists no less that than ten different milling schemes that can produce 2nd grade. But the important part is that one of the flours that fit is a simple 85% high extraction flour, and that's exactly how it started out. Then, at some point, when milling for the maximum extraction stopped being a priority, it was replaced by a more complicated scheme in which 2nd grade was only a byproduct, and it probably happened several times as milling technology improved and the ability to extract more white flour and less gray improved with it. It's very hard to date, but I'd say that it probably started happening around 1960. The end result of it is there're some breads out there that can be produced with very different outcomes depending on the time period you follow. For Borodinsky though the difference will be minimal, may be in dough consistency, but this is something a baker should be able to correct during the mixing.
And this is how an authentic second grade behaved in a test bake:
I wonder how it would compare to the second clear, but I am not sure if it even exists anymore.
Beautiful. A ton to chew on, no pun intended. Fascinating lore as a meta-bit to the specifics themselves, and I really appreciate it.
Edit: and thanks on the use of pastry flour. I now get it. And your intimation of other possibilities.
Forgot to mention - the Borodinsky bread - I've never smelled anything like it. Not waxing poetic to say "enchanting, because that's literally the word best suited to my impression. The sweet-baked plum-bitter-edge, with the odd sour, a sour I've never smelled. This is going to be cool.
It ate really dry. I don't know if that's just to be expected with an imported bread that may sit on the shelves a bit, or it's part of the bread's profile (I found the Ammerlander Schwartzbrot similarly dry - but pmmcool corroborated the experience). Very deep, long flavor - a trip.
while searching for first clear flour, this reseller came up:
https://stovercompany.com/boxer-clear-flour-50lbs/
Their Bay State clear flour is about half the price of Baker Authority's Ardent Mills first clear flour. I assume clear flour = first clear flour, because "second clear flour" is animal feed.
I have not purchased from Stover and Company so I cannot speak to their service or reliability, etc.
HTH.
Great - thanks a lot Dave!
A quick note that the exact nature of the wheat flour isn’t very important to Borodinsky. It’s only 15%, mostly there to give a little gluten, and gets drowned out by the sugar, malt, coriander, sourdough and scald. Anything from all purpose to high extraction will not be very distinguishable in the final product.